Questions about Awakened Mind/Vicious mockery/Dissonant whispers

[Rabbitfox]

Hello everyone,

I was thinking about making an assassin type warlock as a character using the Charlatan background, Actor Feat, and Great Old One Patron. For one of the Eldritch Invocations I would use "Mask of Many Faces" (free disguise self). I also plan on using Pact of the Tome to get extra cantrips.
The idea is that the character can easily impersonate others to get access to places, where can assassinate the target.

In regards to this build I had a couple of questions:

- Let's say my character successfully managed to get into a social gathering attended by the person he wants to assassinate. The target isn't aware of him/doesn't see him as a threat/hostile. If I cast "Dissonant whispers" on the target, is the target/people around him aware that he has been targeted by a spell? Would the target/people around him know the origin of the spell? If the spell is successful in killing the target, would it look like the target had a panic/heart attack and died or would there be more obvious signs (the spell does psychic damage so there shouldn't be any physical signs other than maybe his panic reaction before he died).Can someone use detect magic after the target has died to figure out what happened (I assume detect magic while you cast it would let someone notice)? I am just curious if you can effectively silently kill an unaware target using this spell (if it does enough damage).

-A similar question about Vicious Mockery, let's say you get in a verbal confrontation with another character (no physical fighting, just arguing). You "attack" them with Vicious Mockery during the confrontation by insulting them, are they aware you are doing more than insulting them? Are people around you aware you are "attacking" them? If the character dies just from the use of vicious mockery (I guess embarrassed to death), would people know you actively tried to harm them? I feel like if you pull this trick once in a town, people wouldn't assumed you killed someone by insulting them.

- Can you use the telepathic communication granted by Awakened Mind to use Vicious Mockery on a target within 30ft, without anybody else hearing the insults? Are you basically tormenting them in your head and driving them crazy?

-If you use Awakened Mind to telepathically communicate with someone, who's voice do they hear? Your natural voice or something else? Can you influence this voice in some way (Actor feat let's you imitate someone else voice).


Thanks for your guys opinion/insight! I am just curious what other think. I guess it could be pretty powerful to silently kill someone that way. On the other hand, I feel like you can get "caught" with Detect Magic or people will investigate deaths like that more thoroughly if they happen all the time so it can be balance.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly, none of these would fly by me if I was your DM.

The latter two both call out as having Vocal components, which has been been confirmed (either Sage Advice or JC tweets) as mystical words. As for awakened mind.... just no.

Now, if you had sorceror levels with Subtle Spell metamagic... we might be onto something.

[Rabbitfox]

Oh ok, thanks for the feedback.

Based on the PHB page 204: "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it w as targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a m ore subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise". I figured you'd get away with people not realizing a spell was cast at all (especially with Vicious mockery as the verbal component is the insult itself).

[Honest Tiefling]

Honestly, none of these would fly by me if I was your DM.

I'd probably agree to this. I tend to run games with the idea that anything a PC can do, so can an NPC. And having waaaaaay too many stealth casters who can kill instantly many, many, many times a day is going to be a game of rocket tag I don't want to play. There is the point that you are basically trying to mimic a class ability without investment, which is a no-no for me.

Also, by RAW, you have to speak magic words to get Dissonant Whispers and Vicious Mockery to work, so it's going to be pretty obvious who the heck just did that. Judging from the description in the PHB alone, chanting mystical words is definitely going to make someone aware of the source.

Both Vicious Mockery and Dissonant Whispers have very perceptible effects, since the victim's mind is being stressed by psychic damage. I think having one's mind attack is a bit perceptible. Also, that deals with people being affected, not hearing someone chant "Klaatu barada nikto" over and over.

If you're really dead set on this concept, I think your best choice is to invest heavily into Deception and try to make a feat that keys off of that. Another option is to try to work with the strengths of your party to accomplish this, since many DMs love teamwork.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Oh ok, thanks for the feedback.

Based on the PHB page 204: "Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it w as targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a m ore subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise". I figured you'd get away with people not realizing a spell was cast at all (especially with Vicious mockery as the verbal component is the insult itself).

The bold part isn't true. There is a separate verbal component of mystic words, then the insult. No getting subtle spell for free! The target (and anyone else paying attention in the area) will know a spell was cast, but may not know they were the target of it. In a higher-magic setting, I would expect that many people (especially higher-class types) would recognize verbal components as signs of spell-casting, even if they don't know exactly what spell it is.

"chanting arcane phrases" is a common trope, after all.

[Rabbitfox]

Also, by RAW, you have to speak magic words to get Dissonant Whispers and Vicious Mockery to work, so it's going to be pretty obvious who the heck just did that. Judging from the description in the PHB alone, chanting mystical words is definitely going to make someone aware of the source.



The bold part isn't true. There is a separate verbal component of mystic words, then the insult. No getting subtle spell for free! The target (and anyone else paying attention in the area) will know a spell was cast, but may not know they were the target of it. In a higher-magic setting, I would expect that many people (especially higher-class types) would recognize verbal components as signs of spell-casting, even if they don't know exactly what spell it is.

"chanting arcane phrases" is a common trope, after all.

That's fair. I am not too invested in the idea, so if it doesn't work I am not heart-broken. One shouldn't be able to get a feature from another class for free.

Based on the feedback I got ,I am curious how one would deal with spells like suggestion with that interpretation? If you use suggestion, you have to do your verbal component before your actual suggestion to cast it. So the person targeted by the suggestion could know (if he knew the spell for instance) that someone is in the process of casting suggestion on him, right? (By the same logic that people know you are casting Dissonant Whispers/Vicious Mockery). Is the Wisdom save then part of knowing that someone is using suggestion (which wouldn't really make sense if you know the spell)?

[Kuulvheysoon]

That's fair. I am not too invested in the idea, so if it doesn't work I am not heart-broken. One shouldn't be able to get a feature from another class for free.

Based on the feedback I got ,I am curious how one would deal with spells like suggestion with that interpretation? If you use suggestion, you have to do your verbal component before your actual suggestion to cast it. So the person targeted by the suggestion could know (if he knew the spell for instance) that someone is in the process of casting suggestion on him, right? (By the same logic that people know you are casting Dissonant Whispers/Vicious Mockery). Is the Wisdom save then part of knowing that someone is using suggestion (which wouldn't really make sense if you know the spell)?

To me, it seems like it's more a short magical phrase followed by the aforementioned suggestion. You wouldn't know the spell being cast (technically), but the Wisdom save is resisting the suggestion, not knowing that somebody cast it.

[Honest Tiefling]

To me, it seems like it's more a short magical phrase followed by the aforementioned suggestion. You wouldn't know the spell being cast (technically), but the Wisdom save is resisting the suggestion, not knowing that somebody cast it.

I assumed this or that the suggestion itself was said in arcane words or in such a way to trigger the spell. Either way, it has a material component and very few cultures espouse carrying around snake tongues to prove your womanhood. Most people are probably also really dubious of people waving around random crystal balls. You might get away with getting honey on your fingers, but only if you pretend to be a messy eater around expensive food and take disadvantage to dignity checks.

I think RAW, the combo wouldn't work and suggestion is usually best for solitary targets. I assume the charm sorta makes them not really care about that magic business. Friends don't cast bad magic on friends!

[Cespenar]

A good rule of thumb is think about what rolls you would have your player do when being targeted by a similar strategy from an enemy NPC.

For example, if an enemy would cast Vicious Mockery during an argument, it would probably be a Perception and/or Arcana checks to notice the short sentence of mumbo-jumbo the guy mumbled during his rebuttal are actually magical incantations.

As a build suggestion, think about getting Sorcerer instead of Warlock, and get Subtle Spell.