Rate this Feat: Demoralizer

[snailgosh]

Our group is making the jump from 3.5 to 5e and some of the players are trying to carry over their characters.
I 'brewed this feat for a particular character who specialized in in-combat intimidation (demoralization).


Your menacing demeanor in combat strikes fear into the hearts of your enemies. You gain the following options:

• When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can use your bonus action to attempt to frighten the target. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

• You can use your action to attempt to frighten all enemies that can see you within 30ft. of you until the end of your next turn, unless they succeed on a Wisdom saving throw.

The saving throw's Difficulty Class is equal to 8 + your Charisma modifier.
You may add your proficiency bonus to the DC if you are proficient in Charisma (intimidation) checks. Effects that alter your proficiency bonus to Charisma (intimidation) checks, like Expertise or Jack of All Trades, also alter the save DC.

I chose the mechanics of the Battlemaster's "Menacing Strike" maneuver as the actual effect of demoralization.
I was thinking of having the effect only last until the beginning of your next round, but since this is actual existing rules text I might as well leave it as is.

The first bullet point enables it as a bonus action-triggered rider on a weapon attack, similar to the "Shield Master" feat's shove. I chose to require a hit instead of merely taking the Attack Action, since misses aren't really menacing in my head.

The second bullet point is inspired by the 3.5 feat "Dazzling Display", which enables you to demoralize all enemies within 30ft. of you as a full-round action.

I considered making it an actual Charisma (intimidation) roll, but I'm stuck on deciding what the opposed roll would be and the saving throw variant feels much more elegant. Do you feel having proficiency-altering effects apply is too much?

Please evaluate the worth of the feat in comparison with existing ones, criticize honestly and suggest improvements.

[LeonBH]

It's a weak feat. See the Unearthed Arcana (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-SkillFeats.pdf) for a similar feat called Menacing (which is also weak).

The bonus action frighten is really good because it's a spammable skill (that said, this probably should have charges like X/rest), but the action to frighten others in an area is not so alluring.

[snailgosh]

It's a weak feat. See the Unearthed Arcana (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-SkillFeats.pdf) for a similar feat called Menacing (which is also weak).

The bonus action frighten is really good because it's a spammable skill (that said, this probably should have charges like X/rest), but the action to frighten others in an area is not so alluring.

Thank you for the link. I was not aware of a similar existing feat. So they chose Intimidation opposed to Insight. I'm not sure I like it that way. It's pretty easy to get the intent behind someone trying to intimidate you after all.

You say the feat is weak, but your advice is making it even weaker. I'm not sure how I'm to take this.

Would +1 to CHA as an added benefit be over the top?

[LeonBH]

The reason it's weak is because it makes the people who take it into MAD characters. They need Strength and/or Dex to hit, but now they also want to pump Charisma to make use of this feat. It would therefore best fit classes that already use Charisma, but which also engage in melee.

To clarify, I meant that the area of effect frighten for an action, hurts your action economy. There is a similar effect to this, the Fey Pact Warlock's Fey Presence ability which they get at level 1. It has a 10 foot range, but lets you choose to frighten or charm the affected creatures. It's 1/rest. The Frenzy Barbarian has a similar ability at level 10 called Intimidating Presence, with the same 30 ft radius. In both cases, I've felt underwhelmed with those particular abilities.

The bonus action frighten is strong. I could see it being used efficiently in a grappler build since the frightened condition is one of the most accessible ways to impose disadvantage on ability checks without maintaining concentration on a spell. I suggested an X/day limit because the Battlemaster Fighter that you drew inspiration from has a pool of Superiority Die and it seems like a good idea to future-proof it.

I skipped over the DC on my first read though. That part is actually very strong and it makes this feat not weak, after all. Having expertise added to your DC means a Rogue can have a save DC of 17 at level 1. This is too powerful.

---

On further reflection, I urge you to change the ability score used from Charisma to something else, like Constitution or Wisdom. There is one particular class (Hexblade Warlock) which can abuse this without having to sacrifice ability score progression. That is a bit of skewed design.

As for the +1 to Charisma, that seems reasonable to me.

[Malifice]

Our group is making the jump from 3.5 to 5e and some of the players are trying to carry over their characters.
I 'brewed this feat for a particular character who specialized in in-combat intimidation (demoralization).


Your menacing demeanor in combat strikes fear into the hearts of your enemies. You gain the following options:

• When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can use your bonus action to attempt to frighten the target. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

• You can use your action to attempt to frighten all enemies that can see you within 30ft. of you until the end of your next turn, unless they succeed on a Wisdom saving throw.

The saving throw's Difficulty Class is equal to 8 + your Charisma modifier.
You may add your proficiency bonus to the DC if you are proficient in Charisma (intimidation) checks. Effects that alter your proficiency bonus to Charisma (intimidation) checks, like Expertise or Jack of All Trades, also alter the save DC.

I chose the mechanics of the Battlemaster's "Menacing Strike" maneuver as the actual effect of demoralization.
I was thinking of having the effect only last until the beginning of your next round, but since this is actual existing rules text I might as well leave it as is.

The first bullet point enables it as a bonus action-triggered rider on a weapon attack, similar to the "Shield Master" feat's shove. I chose to require a hit instead of merely taking the Attack Action, since misses aren't really menacing in my head.

The second bullet point is inspired by the 3.5 feat "Dazzling Display", which enables you to demoralize all enemies within 30ft. of you as a full-round action.

I considered making it an actual Charisma (intimidation) roll, but I'm stuck on deciding what the opposed roll would be and the saving throw variant feels much more elegant. Do you feel having proficiency-altering effects apply is too much?

Please evaluate the worth of the feat in comparison with existing ones, criticize honestly and suggest improvements.


Too much.

I'd change 3 things.

1: Make proficiency in the intimidation skill a prereq.
2: Set the DC at 8+Prof+ [Str or Cha] and remove the enhanced save DC via expertise
3: Add the line: 'A creature that successfully saves against this ability is immune to it for the next 24 hours.'

[Cespenar]

Too much.

I'd change 3 things.

1: Make proficiency in the intimidation skill a prereq.
2: Set the DC at 8+Prof+ [Str or Cha] and remove the enhanced save DC via expertise
3: Add the line: 'A creature that successfully saves against this ability is immune to it for the next 24 hours.'

These are pretty good changes.

Also, it's a strong feat in my opinion. Spamming area intimidation each turn without worrying about spells/maneuvers per day is an excellent crowd control tool, nearing the point of being overpowered, even. But the above mentioned 3rd line brings it down to normal levels, so it's okay.

[Malifice]

These are pretty good changes.

Also, it's a strong feat in my opinion. Spamming area intimidation each turn without worrying about spells/maneuvers per day is an excellent crowd control tool, nearing the point of being overpowered, even. But the above mentioned 3rd line brings it down to normal levels, so it's okay.

My other concern is with the 1st bullet point. Its worded in a way that any weapon attack triggers it, and there is no range.

So I can shoot someone with a bow, bonus action frighten them (stopping them from getting closer to me), and rinse + repeat each round.

Coupled with a 'double proficiency save DC' it could rather easily lead to someone being 'fear-locked' down.

Id put a 30' range requirement on the first bullet point as well. And a further limitation of 'The creature you frighten must be able to see or hear you'.

[Unoriginal]

You could just have the check be a STR check rather than a CHA one.


It's the power of the attack itself that's scary, not the Heavy Metal cool pose the guy is taking afterward (if you get what I mean).

So, more this:

https://youtu.be/wxL8bVJhXCM
https://youtu.be/wxL8bVJhXCM

[snailgosh]

The reason it's weak is because it makes the people who take it into MAD characters. They need Strength and/or Dex to hit, but now they also want to pump Charisma to make use of this feat. It would therefore best fit classes that already use Charisma, but which also engage in melee.

On further reflection, I urge you to change the ability score used from Charisma to something else, like Constitution or Wisdom. There is one particular class (Hexblade Warlock) which can abuse this without having to sacrifice ability score progression. That is a bit of skewed design.

You seem a bit torn in that the feat seems too weak to you if it made your character MAD, but too strong on a Charisma SAD character. Balancewise I agree that tieing it to CON, which is worthwhile but not top priority for basically everyone, seems a smart choice. Fluffwise I have a hard time justifying CON instead of CHA.

The character in question is using STR as his attack stat, so I think in this particular case leaving it as is should be fine. In general I agree with you however.


To clarify, I meant that the area of effect frighten for an action, hurts your action economy. There is a similar effect to this, the Fey Pact Warlock's Fey Presence ability which they get at level 1. It has a 10 foot range, but lets you choose to frighten or charm the affected creatures. It's 1/rest. The Frenzy Barbarian has a similar ability at level 10 called Intimidating Presence, with the same 30 ft radius. In both cases, I've felt underwhelmed with those particular abilities.
Thank you again for directing me towards comparable abilities. I agree with you that these, especially the Frenzy Barbarian's single target variant, appear somewhat lackluster. Note that both of these are tied to CHA.

I do see cases where AoE Frighten is worth your action, though; especially when working with your party. An ability doesn't have to be your most valuable action every turn to be worthwhile having in of itself.


The bonus action frighten is strong. I could see it being used efficiently in a grappler build since the frightened condition is one of the most accessible ways to impose disadvantage on ability checks without maintaining concentration on a spell. I suggested an X/day limit because the Battlemaster Fighter that you drew inspiration from has a pool of Superiority Die and it seems like a good idea to future-proof it.
The at-will bonus action rider was inspired by the Shield Master feat. Most of the good feat choices grant you additional options that aren't limited in use. I am hesitant to restrict the daily usage.

The Battlemaster's maneuver DC's are tied to her attack stat, which most likely is her strongest. As I see it we're in agreement in that the feat should be at least somewhat MAD, by not being tied to ones attack stat. Therefore the Fighter's chance of success should be higher. I feel it would be disappointing having a limited usage on an ability with lower than average success chance.

That said:


I skipped over the DC on my first read though. That part is actually very strong and it makes this feat not weak, after all. Having expertise added to your DC means a Rogue can have a save DC of 17 at level 1. This is too powerful.
I fully agree. Escalating the save like that works against my line of reasoning in the paragraph above. I'll stick to regular proficiency bonus.

EDIT:

Wow. so much going on, while I typed my reply. I really like your suggestions, Malifice.

[Talamare]

Needs to be on Melee Attack