How would Elan react to having been converted to 5e?

[Oerlaf]

If Elan and the other members of the Order were converted to 5e, how would they react to it? Especially Elan that all of a sudden became a full spellcaster with Cutting Words?

[D.One]

If Elan and the other members of the Order were converted to 5e, how would they react to it? Especially Elan that all of a sudden became a full spellcaster with Cutting Words?

I believe he would try to remain keen with his rhymes...

[Potatomade]

Dunno, all of those concentration spells...

Incidentally, I imagine V would react very poorly, considering you can't stack 5 or 6 buff spells on top of flight anymore.

[martianmister]

Same way how they have reacted to being converted to 3.5.

[wumpus]

Don't even ask how 1e bards worked... Thanks to a throwaway line (Haley saying her father was a 1e thief) it is reasonable to believe that Tarquin lived under 1e rules and based his opinion of bards on that.

A 1e bard has 5-7 levels of fighter, 5-9 levels of thief, and the rest in Bard.

AD&D has these weird rules for playing with two classes. I never saw them used in tabletop play, but they were useful in optimizing Baldur's Gate characters (especially for BG2). You need high stats in you original class and higher in the class you move to (15 and 17 from memory). You advance in the first class as normal, then you drop everything and become a first level character (you keep your old hit points) and aren't allowed to use *any* of you old skills (not sure if your bard fights as a 7th level fighter or 1st level thief after the first switch, I'd rule 7th fighter but only thief weapons and leather) until you hit the old level in which you are allowed to at least carry [there may be limitations] your old equipment and use your old skills.

Note that AD&D had more exponential xp requirements (also thieves advanced the fastest of all classes) so your party pretty much had to carry you for a level or two (this made it unpopular in tabletop play). Presumably Tarquin had bad experiences carrying the bard.

I'd assume that for levels 9-12 or so, bards were pretty impressive. Of course Elan and co are a bit beyond that now, so I'd expect that 16th level bards are starting to be less concerned about their old skills (and I wouldn't count on bard skills overcoming this). So Elan wouldn't be happy with being an 1e bard (well, who knows. The rest of the party wouldn't be happy dragging a 1e bard around at 16th level).

[Emanick]

Don't even ask how 1e bards worked... Thanks to a throwaway line (Haley saying her father was a 1e thief) it is reasonable to believe that Tarquin lived under 1e rules and based his opinion of bards on that.


Tarquin actually didn't have a negative opinion of bards; that was Nale misinterpreting his words. (Panel 9.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)

[Kish]

Don't even ask how 1e bards worked... Thanks to a throwaway line (Haley saying her father was a 1e thief) it is reasonable to believe that Tarquin lived under 1e rules and based his opinion of bards on that.

A 1e bard has 5-7 levels of fighter, 5-9 levels of thief, and the rest in Bard.

AD&D has these weird rules for playing with two classes. I never saw them used in tabletop play, but they were useful in optimizing Baldur's Gate characters (especially for BG2). You need high stats in you original class and higher in the class you move to (15 and 17 from memory). You advance in the first class as normal, then you drop everything and become a first level character (you keep your old hit points) and aren't allowed to use *any* of you old skills (not sure if your bard fights as a 7th level fighter or 1st level thief after the first switch,
1st-level thief. I'm not sure where you're seeing ambiguity, given that you already noted you can't use any of your previous class's skills, just its hit points; fighting is a fighter's primary skill. A dual-classed 7th-level fighter->1st level thief is a first-level thief with a lot of hit points, in every particular.

That said, while Tarquin was used for earlier-edition jokes (notably about female drow), I think it unlikely that he was talking about previous-edition bards in anything he said to Nale that wasn't a "back in my day" anecdote.

[KorvinStarmast]

Back to Elan in 5e: he can't have that prestige class Julio taught him. (That would stink).
If he's a lore bard, he'd be a lot closer to the wizard he wanted to be/multi class into.
If he's a valor bard, he can't use his Cha the way the prestige class can, which would stink.
He'd have better spells. He could discuss with V which spells to get for Magical Secrets.
He'd still be a decent party face, in terms of high charisma
He'd still be a fine fool/buffoon with his Int dump stat.
Skills/jack of all trades/expertise like things ... should work out OK
I don't have the latest "College of Blades" info since my XGtE has yet to arrive, but that might allow him to get closer to that prestige class in terms of being able to fight.

[wumpus]

Tarquin actually didn't have a negative opinion of bards; that was Nale misinterpreting his words. (Panel 9.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)

I missed that. I suppose that is similar to the failure of wizards to utterly dominate (and instead take up blasting. Can't remember the playgrounder who insisted they would take over). Certainly divine casters should have similar abilities (they manipulate *gods*), although presumably the inherent divine balance would force things back to normal. I don't think other classes have similar abilities to break the game (outside of directly broken classes like hulking hurler and planar ranger).

[Quartz]

Back to Elan in 5e: he can't have that prestige class Julio taught him. (That would stink).

Why not? The whole thing can be finessed (ahem) into a cantrip (variation of Cutting Words) that very few people know, and some skills and a feat or Alternate Class Feature (+CHA or +Proficiency to unarmoured AC). Really all we've seen of the prestige class is the Cutting Words, Skill: Genre Savvy, and the unarmoured bonus. Works just fine.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why not is because 5e does not have prestige classes. (thanks be to Ao). Then again, Rich could port it over with a wave of the pen.

[RossN]

'Dashing Swordsman' as a prestige class doesn't exist in 5e but the nearly identical Swashbuckler Roguish Archetype does and Elan could easily be a multi-class Bard (Lore)/Rogue (Swashbuckler).

Elan would not have been eligible to be a Bard under any edition before 3.0. As wumpus noted in 1e Bards had to be Druids first and Druids had a minimum 12 Wisdom. In 2e Bards where a much more normal class - the 3.0 and later Bard is a reworking of the 2e Bard - but they still required a minimum 13(!) in Intelligence.

[wumpus]

'Dashing Swordsman' as a prestige class doesn't exist in 5e but the nearly identical Swashbuckler Roguish Archetype does and Elan could easily be a multi-class Bard (Lore)/Rogue (Swashbuckler).

Elan would not have been eligible to be a Bard under any edition before 3.0. As wumpus noted in 1e Bards had to be Druids first and Druids had a minimum 12 Wisdom. In 2e Bards where a much more normal class - the 3.0 and later Bard is a reworking of the 2e Bard - but they still required a minimum 13(!) in Intelligence.

Dashing swordsman didn't exist in 3.x when Julio Scoundrél first showed up. Rich would simply use the DM's power to alter the rules, same as in 3.xe rules.

[KorvinStarmast]

'Dashing Swordsman' as a prestige class doesn't exist in 5e but the nearly identical Swashbuckler Roguish Archetype does and Elan could easily be a multi-class Bard (Lore)/Rogue (Swashbuckler).

Elan would not have been eligible to be a Bard under any edition before 3.0. As wumpus noted in 1e Bards had to be Druids first and Druids had a minimum 12 Wisdom.
Nope.
In 1e, Bards had to be Fighters / Thieves first. They could then finally become a bard.


BARD ABILITIES
A bard must have scores of 15 or better in the following abilities: strength, wisdom, dexterity and charisma. Furthermore, a bard must have at least a 12 score in intelligence and o 10 in constitution.
BARD RACE
A bard must be human or half-elven.
THE CLASS
Bards begin play as fighters, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of thieves. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical studies as
druids; but at this time they are actually bards and under druidical tutelage. Bards must fulfill the requirements in all the above classes before progressing to Bards Table 1.
They must always remain neutral, but can be chaotic, evil, good or lawful neutral if they wish. Now the SR version of bards was an OD&D thing, and Druids were not even a PC class yet when that proposed class was published in the SR in February of 1976 (pages 11-13). But there was some relationship to the druids in that writeup, but it was heavily related to Fighting Men and Thieves in terms of some of its abilities.

[RossN]

Dashing swordsman didn't exist in 3.x when Julio Scoundrél first showed up. Rich would simply use the DM's power to alter the rules, same as in 3.xe rules.

I know I meant that prestige classes in general (of which Dashing Swordsman is one, albeit invented by Rich rather than WOTC) don't exist in 5e.

Having said that it is easy enough to create Elan in 5e by multiclassing a Bard with a Rogue of the Swashbuckler Archetype.

[KorvinStarmast]

I know I meant that prestige classes in general (of which Dashing Swordsman is one, albeit invented by Rich rather than WOTC) don't exist in 5e.

Having said that it is easy enough to create Elan in 5e by multiclassing a Bard with a Rogue of the Swashbuckler Archetype. Yeah, that would probably work.