An Optimizer's First Look at Xanathar's Subclasses

[PeteNutButter]

Finally got my hands on XGtE, and I'll be posting about what I think optimizers can really make out of this. I don't have UA committed to memory, as I don't usually use it, but I'll try to point out where things obviously differ from the UA versions.

This is just a first read through, so I may of course, miss things and change my opinion on things. Overall I have to say this book is a great tool for an optimizer and has a fair deal of the expected power creep that comes with every new book.

Basically free tanking (attacked foe has disadvantage to attack others) at no action cost or resource cost (as long as your raging) at level 3. Pretty similar to the UA. At level 6 you get reaction to prevent 2d6 damage to an ally. The scaling is the same, except d6s instead of d8s.

It's a fantastic tank character that can protect allies instead of just taking damage.So the auras granted at level 3 now activate on your bonus action which makes them a good deal weaker on the action economy front. Tundra now grants THP to allies equal to the damage that the Desert would do. It sounds good on top of rage resistance, but it's basically a glorified heroism spell that costs a bonus action every turn. It does also get allies. 6th level is resistance, 10th level shares that resistance to allies within 10 feet while raging, more debuffing from the UA. 14th level desert is now a reaction to cause attackers fire damage = half barbarian level, dex save negates.

Overall Storm Herald got some nerfs from the UA, but is still a fine subclass. It's probably the weakest of the 3 new ones, but the restrictions on action economy are pretty harsh. If at 10th level I'm spending my bonus action to deal 4 damage to enemies within 10 feet, I'm probably not optimized. At least in games with feats, bonus actions have better uses. The damage is similarly weak for sea, and the THP from tundra is the same as desert damage. I could see some potential with tempest cleric and the sea version, as being able to blast and push as a bonus action has some good utility.At level 3 your damage bonus is now applied to the first attack you land while raging. I'm glad they this as it was too similar to the storm herald as an aura. It makes it a little less damage, since it isn't AoE, but it can now benefit from crits, which is cool. As a DM, I much prefer that my PCs hit harder on their attacks than to have to deduct 2 hps from 4 foes at the end of turn nonsense...
6th level feature no longer takes a reaction, which is nice. Zealous presence at 10th level is now a bonus action, more action economy love.

Great sublcass with cool flavor(IMO) and a level 3 feature that just says, "I do more damage." Can't go wrong with this one. Keep a cleric buddy around to raise you for free and you are golden.
THP granted with the level 3 ability are now a flat 5, but scale up 3 every 4 levels. The 14th level ability is no longer sanctuary based, and seems very strong. Nothing else stands out as different from UA at first glance.

Decent subclass, with some nice abilities, but I feel like it's a bit overspecialized. All of the abilities that the subclass gives can be replicated with spells, yet this guy just does it better. The usage of bonus actions is a great way to make it not suck, but can be annoying if you like to hand out inspirations.This one seems like basically an upgrade from valor bard. The flourishes are great, all adding to damage and something else, like AC. They are economy free, being tied to the attack action, and limited to once per turn. They are basically battle master maneuvers.

The only thing you might miss is shield proficiency from valor bard, but I'd just dip hexblade 1 anyways so I can max cha and have 5 flourishes per short rest. This subclass puts bard back on the gish map is far as I'm concerned. The level 3 ability is changed from poison to psychic damage, which is a pretty big upgrade, while it still costs no action economy and triggers after hitting like a smite. The rest of the abilities seem like out of combat abilities mostly.

Neat flavor, with basically an on hit psychic damage that follows the damage of sneak attack up to 15th level (8d6). It's a good in between if you want to play a bard and also a rogue.
This was spoiled. It's an odd dip choice as a huge power spike at low levels, that eventually might become pretty weak as you pick up magic items.

Overall it makes for one of the best melee clerics, with free AC and damage. Elemental weapon as a spell is just gravy, which I believe makes them the only class that can get it in just 5 levels. (Edit: Hexblades get it to.). I can see myself taking this with 5 levels of a martial to get extra attack on top of that goodness.You get spare the dying as a bonus action and at 30 foot range. That's pretty cool until you remember the limits on bonus action spell casting. You heals are maxed on allies at 0 hp. The rest seems similar to UA at first glance.

I like the flavor. The problem for me is that maxing heals on downed allies, is often weaker than the life cleric bonus would be (unless you start tossing out high level cure wounds). Adding to that, the spell list seems a bit weak. The curse is pretty cool. Pop on a held opponent right before the paladin or rogue hit them hard., and you've got a lot of damage.
Same old healing d6s as before, that activate on a bonus action, which is pretty good as non-moon druids don't have too crowded of bonus actions. 120 feet range on the healing is really nice, so your party will appreciate your love touching. 10th level ability is basically a double range misty step usable wisdom mod times per long rest, that can be used on ally as well (but at 30 feet). The 14th level ability is the nifty, teleportation circle ability that can teleport you back to your last long rest location, after any rest. It has some other effects it can do as well.

The circle gets its raw power at level 2, and then scales with class level, while the rest of the abilities are mostly flavorful. I think the healing is strong, and it makes a solid support character, doing the job better than land druid. Unfortunately, I think it falls short in comparison to the next druid.The second level features haven't really changed, and they are really quite potent. Putting out on-going buffs that recharge on short rest, and only take a bonus action to start is all very good. The Hawk one is advantage any attack roll, and uses your reaction. The 6th level feature is a good buff to what is already two of the best druid spells out there. Summon your animals and fey, but with more hps and the ability to get through the pesky resistances of things like fiends. 10th makes your auras heal you summons.

I really like this druid circle, and feel its one of the more overpowered subclasses to make it into the book. Excellent support straight from level 2, that comes back on short rests, and buffing to some spells that probably didn't need buffing. Lot's of potential here.

Most of this has been spoiled already. It's limited to 2 shots per rest, but they are a bit more powerful than BM maneuvers. Balanced like a warlock I guess, but never goes up. Some of the shots are pretty strong. They don't get a boost until level 18, so you might as well multiclass. The 7th level feature lets you reroll a missed shot as a bonus action against another target, which is pretty good with SS.

I could see taking 3-4 levels of this on an archer, that isn't primarily a fighter. I wouldn't want to actually play this as 2 shots a rest, is just not enough to play with. Overall, I say it's good, but feels like a ranger with less spell slots. The only thing I hate about this is the name. It still gets so little for mounted effects,
that it's pointless and should have been called Knight. The 3rd level ability is a great ability that enables tanking similar to the protector barbarian,
but also if the foe manages to damage anyone else, you can make a special attack on your next turn as a bonus action with advantage that also deals extra damage equal to your fighter level, limited to str mod times per long rest. 7th level ability is basically a protection style type ability that adds a 1d8 to their ac, and if the attack still hits they get resistance to the attack. At 10th creatures can't move around your reach without provoking OAs, and they get reduced to zero movement if you wack them with an OA. 15th level you can try and knock people down when yuo charge on foot or mounted. 18th level gives you one extra OA reaction.

I like the subclass and I can see it being very valuable in a party with a lot of squishy caster types. Everything the PDK wanted to be. Finally a real tank subclass that has a good punch to back up it's protection. I feel like I want 1-4 levels of barbarian with it to make me that much tankier when the enemies attack me. You can give yourself advantage on your attacks for a turn as a bonus action, and get 5 THP, that goes up by 5 every 5 levels. It's only 3 times per long rest though. 7th level ability is golden, basically free resilient wisdom or int/cha if you happen to already have it. Basically a free feat on a fighter. By 10th level you get one use of your 3rd level ability when you roll initiative, so you always have at least one per fight. 15th level ability is still amazing, forgo one advantage to give an extra attack as part of the same action.

This one looks really strong on the surface, but I can't help but feel like it is trying to be a bearbarian, and falling short. Advantage on attacks? Barbarians can do that at will. THP? Resistance is generally stronger. I say this one is a good middle ground between barbarian and fighter, and gets the support to make an excellent GWM fighter. It might even edge out BM fighter as the best GWM subclass. Making potentially 11 attacks a round at level 20 is pretty game breaking.
Not a lot of changes here. 3rd level ability is still free disengage +10 ft movement when flurrying, basically a weaker open hand. It doesn't have to hit the foe, but it also can't do things like knock prone. The strongest ability seems to be the 6th level one where you can spend a ki to turn a miss against you into an attack against another foe. The 17th level ability is cool, making you able to flurry on 5 different targets with one bonus attack.

I'm not too impressed with this one. I like the level 6 feature, but it requires you to put yourself in a dangerous situation with at least 2 foes next to you when you probably have no more than 17 AC. It kind of goes against the class features as you should be using those disengages to get out of there.Not a whole lot of changes from the latest UA version. They added a line on the level 11 ability that it doesn't work on weapons that already have a bonus to attack and damage. It's an interesting choice, since it doesn't preclude other magic weapons like say a flame tongue longsword. +3 flame tongue anyone?

I'm a big fan of any class that says you get more AC, or damage. Some of the features use ki, so it's overall pretty balanced. It's actually kind of cool that we finally have a class in 5e that wants to use a versatile weapon. I'll be turning my AL open hand monk into this, provided they let us rebuild.
Not a lot of changes here from the UA that I can see.

It's got great spells--AoA, Hold Person, Spiritual Weapon, Fear--and cool flavorful but functional abilities. Since a bit of it's abilities rely on frightened, it could suffer heavily in a campaign against undead or foes that are otherwise immune. Then again, the great spell list, and war domain channel divinity effect, makes it an excellent all around paladin combatant.This one got hit with the nerf bat, pretty hard and for good reason. It lacks the free AC and other features at level 3. It's spells still have hold person and counterspell which are solid. 15th level ability is a passive healing when below half health, not bad.

It's got some decent features, but I feel like it's a bit unpolished and scatterbrained. I don't like it, not the mechanics nor the flavor.
It keeps its amazing free extra attack on round one, and gets darkvision at level 3,
along with the "invisibility to darkvision" effect JC talked about. It's a pretty bloated level 3. 7th level is like the samurai, free wisdom save prof or cha/int if you already have it.

Fantastic subclass with a borderline busted level 3 feature. More attacks at no action cost is always strong. Since most fights last on average 3 rounds, it's basically a free attack a third of the time. I can see almost any class dipping this for the juicy 3rd level features, especially all those variant humans out there without darkvision.Planar warrior now makes the attack all force damage and adds 1d8 to next attack,
damage bumps by another d8 at level 11. The rest of the features seem about the same. The spell list now has HASTE! So that's amazing.

With haste and an extra 1-2d8 damage this ranger isn't doing bad. The sucky thing is the feature uses the bonus action so that basically means no horizon walker will TWF or use PAM or XBE. Solid subclass, probably best suited for a classic bow ranger, as you don't want to be in melee if you're concentrating on haste if you can avoid it. Hunter's Mark probably won't see much use, but you can start casting haste by 9th level.The third level feature is now split into two features, with the second feature being basically an at will hunter's mark that only affects the first hit per turn. The biggest difference between it and the Horizon Walker one, is if the target is still alive you can use your bonus action for something else. The rest of the abilities seem to match the latest UA.

I'm a little annoyed that these two subclasses have very similar abilities, that crowd the hell out of your bonus action,
when rangers already have hunter's mark. At any rate it's a decent subclass, but I feel like Horizon Walker is better.
Lots of cool flavor/out-of-combat abilities. At 3rd can attempt an insight check against a foe as a bonus action to enable SA against them as long as you don't have disadvantage (don't need advantage or an ally present).

Lots of cool abilities, but mechanically in combat it falls a little flat. Swashbuckler can do what it does nine times out of ten,
without spending any action. Reprint.Reprint.This one has a cool level 3 ability that allows you to spend your reaction to move half speed when an enemy ends their turn next to you, and it doesn't provoke OAs. It won't stop them from beating you down on their turn, but it allows you to disengage before your turn, freeing up your bonus action. That's good, but you might end up using your uncanny dodge more often. 9th level is just +10 ft movement speed, which feels a bit like a wasted feature, but fits the kitey theme. 17th level is the real money giving you a bonus action attack that can still SA, as long as it's a different target than the first SA.

Overall the features on the scout make for a good archer rogue. The ability to effectively "disengage" as a reaction is good synergy with something like crossbow expert, where you can stay at range or run further and still attack with your bonus action. Not as big of a buff to archery as swashbuckling is to melee, but a good choice.
This one is basically how it was in the last UA. You now get to pick an alignment axis to follow,
each giving a different free 1st level spell known.

The power here is real. Take a base sorcerer and add cleric spell list to it, and you are in a good way. I like it,
and can see it is a very flavorful take on the ever-popular paladin/sorcerer MC.Pretty similar to the UA version, with the defying death ability limited to once per long rest, but still requiring a save. At least it's charisma now, which would be a little better usually.

Solid subclass. Free darkvision at level 1, and the ability to see through it if you cast it with sorcery points, seems like a nice balance between being able to do the darkness thing, but not totally taking the torch from the warlock.
The hound giving disadvantage to saves cast on the enemy is very potent. I can see this being abused.Reprint.
The healing feature is so similar to the dream druid's it might as well have been the exact same feature. The 6th level feature for cha to fire/radiant damage effects is limited to once per cast against one target, so it's even weaker than the draconic sorcerer effect.

I can't say I'm impressed with this one. If you really want to play a warlock and heal, this is your thing, but otherwise the raw power of it, doesn't seem to be much to talk about. That's not to say this is weak. Because the healing is probably better than most other level 1 warlock features, it is still a good subclass. It's a more defensive/support warlock, which meets the intent.Most of these changes have been spoiled elsewhere.

Probably the most powerful warlock patron, granting a plethora of free things, for any type of warlock. If you ask me it's hands down overpowered compared to the other options, but in a way balanced as warlocks needed this (especially blade). Will see tons of play as a full class, dip or dabble.
Gets an at-will reaction for +2 to AC or +4 to a save, along with int bonus to initiative right from level 2. The rest seems about on par with the UA. The power surge feature now gives you one to start with eac day.

The level 2 features of this class are outright broken for a dip. At will mini shield and +4 to a save, with the downside being you can't cast leveled spells the next round. This will become THE dip for EKs/ATs or any martial that might happen to have 2 levels to spare and 13 int.

So that's just a real quick run down. I'm sure I missed stuff. If anyone else still has any questions that can't wait, I'll be happy to help.

[Rfkannen]

Glad to hear your opinions! Sounds like a pretty good book, I really want to roll up a conquest paladin or a shepard druid!

Shame about the celestial patron, any tips for makeing the most of it?

[PeteNutButter]

Glad to hear your opinions! Sounds like a pretty good book, I really want to roll up a conquest paladin or a shepard druid!

Shame about the celestial patron, any tips for makeing the most of it?

It's honestly probably better than the patrons in the PHB. It's just weak compared to it's original (overpowered) UA version and pales in comparison to the overpowered hexblade right next to it.

How to make the most of it? Eldritch Blast with agonizing blast invocation... it's still a warlock. A warlock with a decent ability to heal as a bonus action.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Thank you for this! I like to buff weaker subclasses for players that like the flavor/mechanics but wish they were more up to snuff. This gives me some idea of where to focus once I get the book in my hands.

You missed the scout archetype under rogue, for completion's sake. As a fan of the 3x version, I'm curious how well it turned out.

[thepsyker]

Thank you for this it is an interesting read. The more I hear about the Cavalier and Samurai subclasses the more convinced I become that they should have given the mounted stuff to the Samurai and turned the Cavalier in to a legionaire style footman class.

[PeteNutButter]

Thank you for this! I like to buff weaker subclasses for players that like the flavor/mechanics but wish they were more up to snuff. This gives me some idea of where to focus once I get the book in my hands.

You missed the scout archetype under rogue, for completion's sake. As a fan of the 3x version, I'm curious how well it turned out.

Oops. Yeah I’ll update that as soon as I can. Probably within an hour or two.

Overall the subclasses in this book seem to be better than existing options. They are a bit bloated by comparison granting more abilities per level with every one of them with at least something that makes an impact on combat.

The big sad thing for me is no SCAG cantrips on my AL characters, as I’ll be using this as my +1 book for probably everything.

[Specter]

I see nothing overpowered about Gloom Stalker at all.

One extra attack on the first turn is the Ranger's regular attack damage added to an entire combat, so meh. Darkvision is very good for humans and halflings, but giving a wider range to those who already have it will hardly be relevant. Same with the darkness hiding effect.

What really annoys me is that all these new subclasses seem to be getting expanded spell lists, while Hunters and Beastmasters don't. Just... why.

[Spiritchaser]

Thanks for the quick summaries. I’ll have to wait on Amazon Canada for my copy.

I really think the gloomstalkers invisibility to darkvision is underestimated, though perhaps that’s campaign specific

I don’t think Hexblade is OP compared to, for example, a sorcadin... but it looks like a great fit for what I want to play when I get to take a break from DMing and play

[stoutstien]

honestly forge cleric is the only one I worried about the rest seem about right. was hoping for a elemental monk fix and a berserker barb rehash.

[PeteNutButter]

I see nothing overpowered about Gloom Stalker at all.

One extra attack on the first turn is the Ranger's regular attack damage added to an entire combat, so meh. Darkvision is very good for humans and halflings, but giving a wider range to those who already have it will hardly be relevant. Same with the darkness hiding effect.

What really annoys me is that all these new subclasses seem to be getting expanded spell lists, while Hunters and Beastmasters don't. Just... why.

It's strong once you add in all the extras like SS damage. The fact that its all front-loaded is pretty powerful. The real question is how does it interact with a fighter's action surge? 1 extra or 2? Ask your DM...


Thanks for the quick summaries. I’ll have to wait on Amazon Canada for my copy.

I really think the gloomstalkers invisibility to darkvision is underestimated, though perhaps that’s campaign specific

I don’t think Hexblade is OP compared to, for example, a sorcadin... but it looks like a great fit for what I want to play when I get to take a break from DMing and play

Right, I specifically said it's overpowered in comparison to the existing warlock options, but compared to what other classes can do it's just strong.


honestly forge cleric is the only one I worried about the rest seem about right. was hoping for a elemental monk fix and a berserker barb rehash.

Sadly they don't appear to be reworking anything, just making more and more subclasses. Note the complaint about the ranger subclasses getting spells while the other ones don't. They realize ranger is weak, so they are making newer subclasses better to balance the base class... meh

[Waterdeep Merch]

It's strong once you add in all the extras like SS damage. The fact that its all front-loaded is pretty powerful. The real question is how does it interact with a fighter's action surge? 1 extra or 2? Ask your DM...



Right, I specifically said it's overpowered in comparison to the existing warlock options, but compared to what other classes can do it's just strong.



Sadly they don't appear to be reworking anything, just making more and more subclasses. Note the complaint about the ranger subclasses getting spells while the other ones don't. They realize ranger is weak, so they are making newer subclasses better to balance the base class... meh
While I'm a big fan of the Revised Ranger, it's not a terrible idea to use that basic principle to reinvent the existing subclasses rather than redo the whole class. They haven't yet, of course, but it makes it easier on those of us that like homebrew tweaking for balance.

Hunter is probably fine, though a few extra spells could push it into the great territory. Beastmaster... maybe steal the entire RR take on it and transplant it? I wonder how well that would work.

[PeteNutButter]

While I'm a big fan of the Revised Ranger, it's not a terrible idea to use that basic principle to reinvent the existing subclasses rather than redo the whole class. They haven't yet, of course, but it makes it easier on those of us that like homebrew tweaking for balance.

Hunter is probably fine, though a few extra spells could push it into the great territory. Beastmaster... maybe steal the entire RR take on it and transplant it? I wonder how well that would work.

They'll probably end up doing that at some point. The BeastPet Master! lololol

To me the valor bard is no longer a viable option, with swords being so much better.

Hunter ranger is still fine, but a bit weaker than these in this book. Hexblade basically embarrasses the existing patrons for blade locks. Although, I would say an archer blade lock could work for any patron now.

[War_lord]

I'm surprised they reprinted the Rogue Mastermind, I felt it was a concept that didn't really work in D&D. It's the class of one of the villains, not a player.

[stoutstien]

Ba ranged help is fun, and I always give t bonus inspiration when anytime a mastermind Rogue use the word inconceivable

[Chunkosaurus]

I'm surprised they reprinted the Rogue Mastermind, I felt it was a concept that didn't really work in D&D. It's the class of one of the villains, not a player.

I think Mastermind got a reprint as a companion to the inquisitive as the concepts play off each other. Kind of Holmes versus Moriarty where Holmes is the inquisitive to Moiarty's mastermind

[Chunkosaurus]

They'll probably end up doing that at some point. The BeastPet Master! lololol

To me the valor bard is no longer a viable option, with swords being so much better.

Hunter ranger is still fine, but a bit weaker than these in this book. Hexblade basically embarrasses the existing patrons for blade locks. Although, I would say an archer blade lock could work for any patron now.

Valor Bard is still better for strength build and ranged build.

[Specter]

It's strong once you add in all the extras like SS damage. The fact that its all front-loaded is pretty powerful. The real question is how does it interact with a fighter's action surge? 1 extra or 2? Ask your DM...

It's good, don't get me wrong. But those who say it's overpowered must be relying on very specific combos to say so. Compare it to Hunter's Colossus Slayer, for instance, which gives 1d8 on every round after the first round (and possibly even in the first one), and you'll see it's completely in line.

[GlenSmash!]

Really nice write up, but I have to ask: No Rogue Scout Summary?

[PeteNutButter]

Valor Bard is still better for strength build and ranged build.

The Flourishes work for any weapon attack, so even if you don't benefit from the FS, you'll put out more damage as a Swords Bard. Battlemagic is the only Valor bard feature that even matters, and it's too late and too weak IMO to make up for the output and option loss. I'd play Swords for everything, but that's just my opinion.


It's good, don't get me wrong. But those who say it's overpowered must be relying on very specific combos to say so. Compare it to Hunter's Colossus Slayer, for instance, which gives 1d8 on every round after the first round (and possibly even in the first one), and you'll see it's completely in line.

I agree it's not overpowered in a white room comparison, its quite in line, but since it gives a free attack that costs no action, it's a tempting dip and easy to stack things onto it, front loading and potentially nuking a BBEG. I wouldn't at all recommend DMs nerf or ban it. I just put it in the strong category.


Really nice write up, but I have to ask: No Rogue Scout Summary?
F*** scouts!
jk jk
Just added it.

I wrote most of this last night, after a long work day and a 6 hour drive, so I was a little out of it, and legit passed it over. It's only less than half a page.

[alchahest]

Does Swords bard get to give out bardic inspiration that players can add to damage rolls?

[Specter]

Does Swords bard get to give out bardic inspiration that players can add to damage rolls?

I guess not, otherwise they really would outshine Valor.

[GlenSmash!]

F*** scouts!
jk jk
Just added it.

I wrote most of this last night, after a long work day and a 6 hour drive, so I was a little out of it, and legit passed it over. It's only less than half a page.

Oh man, that made be laugh.

Understandable. I wouldn't have tried writing anything in that state.

[alchahest]

I guess not, otherwise they really would outshine Valor.

so swords = solo, valor = teamwork?

[PeteNutButter]

so swords = solo, valor = teamwork?

The problem with valor is using your bardic inspiration to add ~1d8 damage is almost always weaker than using your bardic inspiration to turn a near miss into a hit.

It's almost a trap option in that sense, since turning a near miss into a hit should be a lot more damage, especially on your GWM/SS using teammate. It's the difference from 4.5 more damage, or almost 20 more damage if that GWM guy lands that swing.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I really think the gloomstalkers invisibility to darkvision is underestimated, though perhaps that’s campaign specific

I just love putting it on a human, for the reversal you can play. In Soviet Underdark, Human Spots You!

(Incidentally, that ability was actually in the most recent UA version of the Deep Stalker, what came out with the Revised Ranger. Incidentally, I had heard some suggestion of Revised-Esque alternative Ranger class features in XGE - did that come to pass?)

[alchahest]

our vengeance paladin and barbarian have been holding on to it for critical hits, it's been tasty.

[PeteNutButter]

I just love putting it on a human, for the reversal you can play. In Soviet Underdark, Human Spots You!

HAHAHA that's amazing.


(Incidentally, that ability was actually in the most recent UA version of the Deep Stalker, what came out with the Revised Ranger. Incidentally, I had heard some suggestion of Revised-Esque alternative Ranger class features in XGE - did that come to pass?)

No.

[Specter]

so swords = solo, valor = teamwork?

Something like that. Swords' abilities are very powerful, but require you to keep spending dice, which means that you'll be out of them in one battle if you use them both for inspiring and attacking. Valor's Extra Attack is more at-will.

[rbstr]

Just a nitpick but my reading doesn't seem to allow Samurai to do 11 attacks, only 10...4x Attack, 1 from giving up Advantage, 1 bonus action from GWM crit/kill, 4x Action Surge.
I might have missread but you can only use the advantage thing once a turn.

Still, yeah it's kinda not that strong until higher levels when you can use the THP at least once a battle and get extra attacks.

[Mikal]

Just a nitpick but my reading doesn't seem to allow Samurai to do 11 attacks, only 10...4x Attack, 1 from giving up Advantage, 1 bonus action from GWM crit/kill, 4x Action Surge.
I might have missread but you can only use the advantage thing once a turn.

Still, yeah it's kinda not that strong until higher levels when you can use the THP at least once a battle and get extra attacks.

If you can get an OA that makes 11.

[Hrugner]

Thanks for the write up. It's disappointing to hear that the zealot moved from an aoe effect to just tacking more damage onto your attack. It goes from tactically interesting to boring but easier to track. Forge cleric received some nice clarifications on what you can and can't create with their channeling, the loss of shield is unfortunate but reasonable.

[PeteNutButter]

Something like that. Swords' abilities are very powerful, but require you to keep spending dice, which means that you'll be out of them in one battle if you use them both for inspiring and attacking. Valor's Extra Attack is more at-will.

Swords gets extra attack like valor bards...

[Ryuu Hayato]

In your opinion is Samurai better than Champion? I tried emulate a Samurai with a Champion subclass and now I thinking to change the subclass.

One question, there is any feat for human? Which feat is? What it do?

[Specter]

Swords gets extra attack like valor bards...

If you spend a dice (unless they changed it on the book).

[PeteNutButter]

If you spend a dice (unless they changed it on the book).

Yeah it’s just extra attack at 6th level. It’s straight up better than valor.

[PeteNutButter]

In your opinion is Samurai better than Champion? I tried emulate a Samurai with a Champion subclass and now I thinking to change the subclass.

One question, there is any feat for human? Which feat is? What it do?

Samurai is probably better than champion unless your DM does long adventuring days.

The human feat gives a skill a tool a language and expertise in a skill. No stat boost.

[Chugger]

Been studying this - it's great - and realized I'd not yet said thank you for putting this up! Thank you, Petenutbutter! Awesome thread - and you did a fair amount of work to set it up and share it. That was very cool!

[DarkKnightJin]

I'll still make my Devo Pally/Celestial Warlock a thing, if only because I spent a long time getting her worked out the way I want to play it, and the campaign never went anywhere..

Might tweak the character a bit while I'm on it, but a 3 or 4 level dabble alwas always the idea for that one.

[Throne12]

honestly forge cleric is the only one I worried about the rest seem about right. was hoping for a elemental monk fix and a berserker barb rehash.

Nothing wrong with berserker barbarian.

[PeteNutButter]

Been studying this - it's great - and realized I'd not yet said thank you for putting this up! Thank you, Petenutbutter! Awesome thread - and you did a fair amount of work to set it up and share it. That was very cool!

Cheers!


I'll still make my Devo Pally/Celestial Warlock a thing, if only because I spent a long time getting her worked out the way I want to play it, and the campaign never went anywhere..

Might tweak the character a bit while I'm on it, but a 3 or 4 level dabble alwas always the idea for that one.

Like I was saying before, I was a bit harsh on the celestial. It's good. They just put all of its power into the supporting role which is, interesting. From a design standpoint, I'm not a fan of having a major resource on a warlock come back on a long rest, and it does that. It's basically 1 + warlock level healing words per long rest. So you can really keep popping your team back on their feet.

[alchahest]

without having the book, is Swords bard able to cast a spell then attack like the valor bard?

[PeteNutButter]

without having the book, is Swords bard able to cast a spell then attack like the valor bard?

If you are talking about the 14th level valor bard feature, no. I pointed out earlier that that is really the only advantage valor bards have, but I also think it's a bit too little too late.

The common blade flourish will be add bardic inspiration to damage and AC. That'll ill be 3-5 times per short rest for most levels of play. That's some serious AC.

Interesting interaction: It looks like if you crit, since the AC is based on the damge rolled for the inspiration, you could potentially gain 2d8 AC or more at higher levels. That's pretty cool!

[Maxilian]

War Wizard would be so good for a small dip, damn.

Anything martial, heck, even a warlock (or anything that is based its damage on cantrips) could get a good buff from this MC.

Note: I kind of like that i can use this bonuses while wildshapping

[rbstr]

Like I was saying before, I was a bit harsh on the celestial. It's good. They just put all of its power into the supporting role which is, interesting. From a design standpoint, I'm not a fan of having a major resource on a warlock come back on a long rest, and it does that. It's basically 1 + warlock level healing words per long rest. So you can really keep popping your team back on their feet.

Yeah it's good. The healing pool isn't too big but being bonus action is great. The THP at level ten is a big boon to the party. Popping back up to half health on a death save is good too. They are very resilient.
But that level 6 feature is just so bleh. It's gonna bait so many people into using Sacred Flame instead of EB and they'll have made a mistake.
minor things about it:
I think the spell list should have had one or two higher level healing spells on it instead of the kind of redundant flaming sphere and wall and...daylight, like really? Gaurdian of Faith also doesn't even work with the level 6 feature.
Also it should have had an expanded Mystic Arcana list with a couple healing spells and like Conjure Celestial.

But in the end you put any patron next to the Hexblade and it'll look at least bit deficient.

[Spiritchaser]

War Wizard would be so good for a small dip, damn.

Anything martial, heck, even a warlock (or anything that is based its damage on cantrips) could get a good buff from this MC.

Note: I kind of like that i can use this bonuses while wildshapping

I’ve toyed with the idea on a hexblade. It doesn’t fit in well with an ee/darkness build, but if you were going with a one hander it might well be worth it.

[Easy_Lee]

I’ve toyed with the idea on a hexblade. It doesn’t fit in well with an ee/darkness build, but if you were going with a one hander it might well be worth it.

Here's an idea: Elf.

High elf
Fighter EK 7 / War Wizard X
Dex > Int > Con
Feats: Elven Accuracy, Alert
Fighting Style: Dueling

Con saves, high AC, profound initiative and saving throws, a mix of control and AoE spells plus things like Misty Step so as to always be useful, always has something to do with its action, effective in melee and at range with firebolt + a Longbow attack. It's an archetypal elf.

[PeteNutButter]

I’ve toyed with the idea on a hexblade. It doesn’t fit in well with an ee/darkness build, but if you were going with a one hander it might well be worth it.


Here's an idea: Elf.

High elf
Fighter EK 7 / War Wizard X
Dex > Int > Con
Feats: Elven Accuracy, Alert
Fighting Style: Dueling

Con saves, high AC, profound initiative and saving throws, a mix of control and AoE spells plus things like Misty Step so as to always be useful, always has something to do with its action, effective in melee and at range with firebolt + a Longbow attack. It's an archetypal elf.

Blade Hexblades can use any type of weapon with charisma as long as it's your pact weapon. GWM with cha all day.

[Easy_Lee]

Blade Hexblades can use any type of weapon with charisma as long as it's your pact weapon. GWM with cha all day.

Well, sure, but that's more Dante from DMC than archetypal elf.

[Maxilian]

Here's an idea: Elf.

High elf
Fighter EK 7 / War Wizard X
Dex > Int > Con
Feats: Elven Accuracy, Alert
Fighting Style: Dueling

Con saves, high AC, profound initiative and saving throws, a mix of control and AoE spells plus things like Misty Step so as to always be useful, always has something to do with its action, effective in melee and at range with firebolt + a Longbow attack. It's an archetypal elf.

How are you taking advantage of the Elven Accuracy? it doesn't seem you have a reliable way to get yourself advantage.

[Easy_Lee]

How are you taking advantage of the Elven Accuracy? it doesn't seem you have a reliable way to get yourself advantage.

Uh, wizard, familiar help action, wizard...

[Spiritchaser]

Blade Hexblades can use any type of weapon with charisma as long as it's your pact weapon. GWM with cha all day.

It’s not that the rules won’t allow it, more that taking a two level mc hit makes the two hander feats needed to make hexblade shine look pretty late in coming

[mr-mercer]

Well, sure, but that's more Dante from DMC than archetypal elf.

The noise you just made me make was something far beyond our mortal understanding. I NEED this book now.

[tsotate]

From a design standpoint, I'm not a fan of having a major resource on a warlock come back on a long rest, and it does that.
I noticed that they did that to Fighters, too, with the new subclasses having long rest resources on what's traditionally a short rest class.

[Kane0]

Perhaps to throw a bone to short rest classes operating under DMs that dont hand them out as often as they should?

[agnos]

I think overall we disagree on some things.
Storm Barb is terrible; it’s just a bad Bearbarian. Ancestor and Zealot bard are both good although both are rather niche.

All three boards are good. Glamour is likely only a 3 level dip (or maybe 5). Sword bard is definitely an upgraded (and less team buffy) Valor bard. Whisper is definitely Rogue bard. They each have their own benefits. Overall I think they’re still slightly worse than lore but they definitely fill roles. It’s also important to note that Bard got Synaptic Static (an Int Save) as a 5th level debuff which is quite strong. Plus it gets Healing Spirit, Holy Weapon, absorb Elements (from a good +1), and a few more great spells to steal. The improved spell list is no joke.

Forge Cleric is just bad. The poor scaling isn’t made up for with elemental weapon imo. Grave will be entirely dependent on how amazingly you’ll be able to alpha the BBEG with vulnerability. The healing aspect is quite poor. That said, Toll the Dead (a strong cantrip), life Transference (a useful mid tier heal), dawn (a strong AoE on concentration) and holy Weapon make the class much, much better in general.

Dreams and Shepherd Druid are what land should’ve been. They lose Moon’s tackiness and wild shape shenanigans, but they’re still quite good. Dreams gains added utility and is a strong single target healer. Shepherd is your raid buff Druid with AoE heals on cool down. I think Dreams is the better of the two because it gets to play around with positioning more while making a Barb into a legit tank. Both look like they’ll dip for life Cleric; though Shepherd wants to go to 3 for 5e shield other. The other big thing is their spell list. Absorb Elements from a good source and Healing Spirit (the upgraded but lower level Aura of Vitality). There are a few more useful spells to add but let me reintegrate Healing Spirit is broken.

Arcane Archer is crap; Hexblade is a far better option. Cavalier is great but doesn’t even get Find Steed or Find Greater Steed and really is Knight. Samurai fills a flavor role but is mechanically terrible.

Drunken Monk is interesting because it gives potential for a damage increase that Monk needs to be viable imo. Monk imo falls right between DPS and utility which normally is great, but they can’t fill either role really while sucking at both roles. In the least, drumonk will be fun to play. Kensei is more of the same except you lose even more DPS if you go ranged.

Conquest Paladin is terrible; the spell list is bad except for Spiritual Weapon. It gets guided Strike. But that’s the sum of it entirely. It’s hands down the worst Paladin archetype. Redemption Paladin is actually stupidly good, but you have to think of it as a healer/leader and not as a tank. The spell list is strong with Sleep, Counterspell, Hypnotic pattern and Wall of Force. Plus you get to focus damage away from squishy party members which gets even better when you use it to prevent a hard Concentration Save. The capstone is great but you’ll never see it. Paladin dint get many new spells, but Find Greater Steed and Holy Weapon are hot stuff.

Gloomstalker 3 is nuts; 11 is practically extra attack 2. Horizon Walker’s spell list is fantastic, but you’re action capped too often. Monster Slayer is just too all over the place; it’s probably fine, tu there’s no real synergy. Getting Absorb Elements and Healing Spirit is pretty strong; ranger definitely won’t be a healer, but it at least challenges Rogue and Warlock as DPS of choice for the action economy it has in being able to keep key allies up while still putting out the DPS.

Inquisitive is complete garbage. Scout is a strong 3 level dip for ranged types for the variety of disengage options it provides while also giving huge skill bonuses and cunning action.

Divine Soul is just stupidly good; there are a million good Cleric spells to steal. The other abilities are just gravy. Tasty tasty gravy. Shadow Sorc is strong too. The big thing about it as that the Hound basically gives you Heighten Spell for free with a touch of added damage and damage soak; sometimes you’ll get multiple uses out of it too. Unfortunately most of the new Sorc spells are irrelevant.

Celestial Warlock is good. It’s basically getting Healing Word as a non-spell a number of times equal to your level. With the extra abilities that’s a lot of utility. You can feasibly even run a party with all tank/DPS where all are able to raise each other for very few resources and exceptionally efficient action usage. Hexblade is just broken. You have to actively try to make it bad. Eldritch Smite is fantastic. There are a few things getting skipped though. Grasp of Hadar has to be abusable somehow with forced movement moving people back and forth through a damage effect. Ice Block (aka Tomb) is stupidly good. Lethargy Lance lets you do silly things too especially in coordination with Quicken Spell. The other important thing to note is the Warlock spells are fan ****ing tastic.

War wizard is good solid + stats. It’s a little boring. It’s effective. It’s less fun than divination. Wizard gets all the spells so who cares. Of note, they actually get Life Transference so Abjurer can maybe abuse that somehow; u fortunately no good new abjurations to refill the shield.

[agnos]

It’s not that the rules won’t allow it, more that taking a two level mc hit makes the two hander feats needed to make hexblade shine look pretty late in coming

No one will 2-dip for Cha poles to get sentinel, PAM, and GwM. If you’re dipping Warlock 2 for a Cha pole, then you’re 100% going to 5 for the feat, spells, and invocations (notably Smite). Besides, the best weapon for a Bladelock has and will always be a Staff of Power.

[Spiritchaser]

No one will 2-dip for Cha poles to get sentinel, PAM, and GwM. If you’re dipping Warlock 2 for a Cha pole, then you’re 100% going to 5 for the feat, spells, and invocations (notably Smite). Besides, the best weapon for a Bladelock has and will always be a Staff of Power.

Well, no. That's not really where that was going. I guess I presumed the content of the earlier posts in the reply

Not a two level dip in hexblade

A two level dip in War Wizard (for the reaction +4 to save) on a hexblade.

[PeteNutButter]

I think overall we disagree on some things.
Storm Barb is terrible; it’s just a bad Bearbarian. Ancestor and Zealot bard are both good although both are rather niche.

All three boards are good. Glamour is likely only a 3 level dip (or maybe 5). Sword bard is definitely an upgraded (and less team buffy) Valor bard. Whisper is definitely Rogue bard. They each have their own benefits. Overall I think they’re still slightly worse than lore but they definitely fill roles. It’s also important to note that Bard got Synaptic Static (an Int Save) as a 5th level debuff which is quite strong. Plus it gets Healing Spirit, Holy Weapon, absorb Elements (from a good +1), and a few more great spells to steal. The improved spell list is no joke.

Forge Cleric is just bad. The poor scaling isn’t made up for with elemental weapon imo. Grave will be entirely dependent on how amazingly you’ll be able to alpha the BBEG with vulnerability. The healing aspect is quite poor. That said, Toll the Dead (a strong cantrip), life Transference (a useful mid tier heal), dawn (a strong AoE on concentration) and holy Weapon make the class much, much better in general.

Dreams and Shepherd Druid are what land should’ve been. They lose Moon’s tackiness and wild shape shenanigans, but they’re still quite good. Dreams gains added utility and is a strong single target healer. Shepherd is your raid buff Druid with AoE heals on cool down. I think Dreams is the better of the two because it gets to play around with positioning more while making a Barb into a legit tank. Both look like they’ll dip for life Cleric; though Shepherd wants to go to 3 for 5e shield other. The other big thing is their spell list. Absorb Elements from a good source and Healing Spirit (the upgraded but lower level Aura of Vitality). There are a few more useful spells to add but let me reintegrate Healing Spirit is broken.

Arcane Archer is crap; Hexblade is a far better option. Cavalier is great but doesn’t even get Find Steed or Find Greater Steed and really is Knight. Samurai fills a flavor role but is mechanically terrible.

Drunken Monk is interesting because it gives potential for a damage increase that Monk needs to be viable imo. Monk imo falls right between DPS and utility which normally is great, but they can’t fill either role really while sucking at both roles. In the least, drumonk will be fun to play. Kensei is more of the same except you lose even more DPS if you go ranged.

Conquest Paladin is terrible; the spell list is bad except for Spiritual Weapon. It gets guided Strike. But that’s the sum of it entirely. It’s hands down the worst Paladin archetype. Redemption Paladin is actually stupidly good, but you have to think of it as a healer/leader and not as a tank. The spell list is strong with Sleep, Counterspell, Hypnotic pattern and Wall of Force. Plus you get to focus damage away from squishy party members which gets even better when you use it to prevent a hard Concentration Save. The capstone is great but you’ll never see it. Paladin dint get many new spells, but Find Greater Steed and Holy Weapon are hot stuff.

Gloomstalker 3 is nuts; 11 is practically extra attack 2. Horizon Walker’s spell list is fantastic, but you’re action capped too often. Monster Slayer is just too all over the place; it’s probably fine, tu there’s no real synergy. Getting Absorb Elements and Healing Spirit is pretty strong; ranger definitely won’t be a healer, but it at least challenges Rogue and Warlock as DPS of choice for the action economy it has in being able to keep key allies up while still putting out the DPS.

Inquisitive is complete garbage. Scout is a strong 3 level dip for ranged types for the variety of disengage options it provides while also giving huge skill bonuses and cunning action.

Divine Soul is just stupidly good; there are a million good Cleric spells to steal. The other abilities are just gravy. Tasty tasty gravy. Shadow Sorc is strong too. The big thing about it as that the Hound basically gives you Heighten Spell for free with a touch of added damage and damage soak; sometimes you’ll get multiple uses out of it too. Unfortunately most of the new Sorc spells are irrelevant.

Celestial Warlock is good. It’s basically getting Healing Word as a non-spell a number of times equal to your level. With the extra abilities that’s a lot of utility. You can feasibly even run a party with all tank/DPS where all are able to raise each other for very few resources and exceptionally efficient action usage. Hexblade is just broken. You have to actively try to make it bad. Eldritch Smite is fantastic. There are a few things getting skipped though. Grasp of Hadar has to be abusable somehow with forced movement moving people back and forth through a damage effect. Ice Block (aka Tomb) is stupidly good. Lethargy Lance lets you do silly things too especially in coordination with Quicken Spell. The other important thing to note is the Warlock spells are fan ****ing tastic.

War wizard is good solid + stats. It’s a little boring. It’s effective. It’s less fun than divination. Wizard gets all the spells so who cares. Of note, they actually get Life Transference so Abjurer can maybe abuse that somehow; u fortunately no good new abjurations to refill the shield.

I can't disagree with you on much. Although I find sleep at 3rd level for the redemption paladin, a rather weak choice. It's a broken spell at level 1, good at level 2, and really falls off hard in my experience. You're probably right about conquest paladin, but the flavor just sits so right with me that I'm biased. The level 7 feature is weak as hell compared to devotion or ancients. I like Hold Person on Paladins. You ready it until after they go, and that way they only have to fail one save, before you auto-crit smite them. Naturally, it's easier if an ally does it for you, but self-reliance is good. I'm also a sucker for Armor of Agathys, and think it'd be really nice on a paladorc with the increased scaling.

I wouldn't call forge cleric bad, just think it needs multiclassing if it wants to be a real melee combatant (like any cleric). Take 1 level of it first or second, along with 5 levels of a martial class for extra attack. So by 10th level you have the elemental weapon and extra attack. Yes, that's later than a paladin would, but you'd have some different goodies and potentially a lot more slots.

I agree that ranged monk is a bit of a trap option on the Kensei. It's just weaker than a fighter or ranger at shooting.

[Ryuu Hayato]

I changed my Champion to Samurai.

Fighter Samurai (lvl15)
STR 20 / DEX 10 / CON 16 / INT 10 / WIS 14 / CHA 12
Feats. HAM, GWM, Alert.
Skills. Athletics, Stealth, History, Insight, Perception, Persuasion.

For a Fighting Style I choose Defense. GWF is ok, but don't give you a better damage, just a consistent damage. On the other hand, Defense gives to you a better AC than you expect have.

When you don't need spend a feat for Resilient on Wis, you can have other great feat for your character. In this case is Heavy Armor Master.

The only drawback with Samurai archetype is Fighting Spirit reset only on long rest. Give it two uses and reset on short is better than this.

My actual dilemma is:
1. 20 CON on lvl 20 - 224 HP +11 CON save;
2. 18 and Sentinel - 204 HP + 10 CON save and reaction attack;
3. Tough and Sentinel - 224 HP + 09 CON save and reaction attack.

[jaappleton]

I'm well documented as saying the UA version of Drunken Master sucked.

This one? I honestly don't recall what's changed, I haven't done a side by side, but I like the one in Xan's. It seems really fun to play.

Not much for an optimizer standpoint, but a fun tactic would be to go into the fray, take the Dodge action, and just Tipsy Sway enemies into hitting eachother.

[tombowings]

I can't disagree with you on much. Although I find sleep at 3rd level for the redemption paladin, a rather weak choice. It's a broken spell at level 1, good at level 2, and really falls off hard in my experience. You're probably right about conquest paladin, but the flavor just sits so right with me that I'm biased. The level 7 feature is weak as hell compared to devotion or ancients. I like Hold Person on Paladins. You ready it until after they go, and that way they only have to fail one save, before you auto-crit smite them. Naturally, it's easier if an ally does it for you, but self-reliance is good. I'm also a sucker for Armor of Agathys, and think it'd be really nice on a paladorc with the increased scaling.

I wouldn't call forge cleric bad, just think it needs multiclassing if it wants to be a real melee combatant (like any cleric). Take 1 level of it first or second, along with 5 levels of a martial class for extra attack. So by 10th level you have the elemental weapon and extra attack. Yes, that's later than a paladin would, but you'd have some different goodies and potentially a lot more slots.

I agree that ranged monk is a bit of a trap option on the Kensei. It's just weaker than a fighter or ranger at shooting.

Not really. Just consider the kiting ability. Let the rest of the party hide in a ditch and have the superspeed + hasted monk kite around with a longbow until everything's dead.

[Puh Laden]

I'm well documented as saying the UA version of Drunken Master sucked.

This one? I honestly don't recall what's changed, I haven't done a side by side, but I like the one in Xan's. It seems really fun to play.

Not much for an optimizer standpoint, but a fun tactic would be to go into the fray, take the Dodge action, and just Tipsy Sway enemies into hitting eachother.

That sounds pretty good to me, as long as you bonus action dodge.

[ghost_warlock]

Personally, I'm much happier with the new version of the Grave cleric. Wis to cantrip damage is much better for an anti-undead cleric than dealing extra necrotic damage with melee attacks. I'm glad they realized how useless extra necrotic damage would've been.

I am a little disappointed that it lost heavy armor, though. Would have been neat to be the only domain with +Wis cantrip damage paired with heavy armor

[Scathain]

That sounds pretty good to me, as long as you bonus action dodge.

Combo with dwarf (because drunk dwarf, duh) and take the dwarf racial feat that lets you expend HD when you dodge.

[rooneg]

Something I hadn't realized until right now, Scout is a nice addition to Skill Monkey builds.

With a Variant Human that starts as a Rogue you can get Proficiency in all skills at level 7 and Expertise in 8 of them (eventually 10 when you hit Rogue 6).

Variant Human w/ Skilled Feat (4 skills) + Background (2 skills) + Scout Rogue 3 (6 skills) + Knowledge Cleric 1 (2 skills) + Lore Bard 3 (4 skills)

You can also go:

Half Elf (2 skills) + Background (2 skills) + Scout Rogue 3 (6 skills) + Knowledge Cleric 1 (2 skills) + Warlock 2 (Beguiling Influence, 2 skills) + Lore Bard 3 (4 skills)

That takes till level 9 to get all the proficiencies, but you get Darkvision and can use Eldritch Blast for combat effectiveness.

Without Scout you can still get either of these to 18/18 skills, but you end up either burning an ASI on Skilled (for the Half Elf version), or you have to take two levels in Warlock (for the Human version), which means you're further away from picking up Reliable Talent. You also don't get the free expertise in Survival and Nature, so you max out at expertise in 8 skills instead of 10.

[Gydian]

Does divine soul still have wings at level 14? this might be a problem for Adventure League.

[PeteNutButter]

Does divine soul still have wings at level 14? this might be a problem for Adventure League.

Yes, but so does draconic, so I doubt it’s an issue.

[rooneg]

Yes, but so does draconic, so I doubt it’s an issue.

It's not. AL only cares about on demand flight at 1st level. Beyond that it's fine.

[Zene]

Something like that. Swords' abilities are very powerful, but require you to keep spending dice, which means that you'll be out of them in one battle if you use them both for inspiring and attacking. Valor's Extra Attack is more at-will.


Yeah it’s just extra attack at 6th level. It’s straight up better than valor.

This, plus the fact that blade flourishes become free to use as their subclass capstone (L14 I think?). Basically you can blade flourish d6 every turn without using your inspiration. It's like a battlemaster with infinite (but weak) superiority dice, without the 3rd and 4th attack or action surge, but with Full Caster and all the other Bard goodies.

IMO it's not even a question, it makes Valor Bard obsolete unless: 1) you're just not into the Battlemaster Lite feel of Blade Flourishes, or 2) you're building a Battle Magic build that comes online at 14 --and even then infinite blade flourishes beats a free bonus action attack when you use a spell slot, IMO. Also for whoever said Valor's better at being a team player... well yeah they can do Combat Inspiration, but that's only marginally better than regular inspiration... and the basic Bard chassis is like the ultimate team player already ... and the Mobile Flourish can make you a better team player in terms positioning / battlefield control than Valor if you choose to use it that way.

That said, Lore is still by far the strongest bard... just not the best melee striker (until L14 when stealing Tenser's Transformation makes them just as good as any other bard on weapon attacks, if you really wanted to build around that)



All three boards are good. Glamour is likely only a 3 level dip (or maybe 5). Sword bard is definitely an upgraded (and less team buffy) Valor bard. Whisper is definitely Rogue bard. They each have their own benefits. Overall I think they’re still slightly worse than lore but they definitely fill roles. It’s also important to note that Bard got Synaptic Static (an Int Save) as a 5th level debuff which is quite strong. Plus it gets Healing Spirit, Holy Weapon, absorb Elements (from a good +1), and a few more great spells to steal. The improved spell list is no joke.


Bards don't get those spells --are you referring to taking them with Magical Secrets? Ok yeah then they are good, but of course you can also play Valor or Lore if you like them and still steal XGE spells.

[rbstr]

Been trying to figure out the best way to melee as a Horizon Walker. Whats more fun than teleporting around and stabbing people?!

Mostly I guess you start out by casting Zephyr Strike and then maybe move to Haste. Haste has fun workings with distant strike I think.
Since Zephyr strike gives you at least one advantaged hit a round GWM seems feasible. I think the cleave aspect would work well with Distant Strike + Haste too, you'd get up to 5 attacks against 3 enemies your turn.
That also could work really well with a rogue MC - Zephyr Strike basically gives swashbuckler's footwork and half of panache.

One thing clear with this is that there's a ton of competition for your concentration and bonus action.

Another fun I noticed (maybe this was pointed out earlier? or doesn't work for some reason I didn't see) is that Assassin3/ranger 17 has a pretty fun capstone combo: Assassinate + Steel Wind Strike . That's an attack roll so they're all advantaged and if you pull off surprise that's 12d10 force. That's quite a lot! Probably best on the Deep Stalker since they've got greater invisibility, but maybe Ethereal step could help out.
Really the one that makes the best use of it is an Assassin + Wizard or Bard since it comes way earlier.

[Potato_Priest]

I heard that the monster hunter ranger got a way to shut down teleportation. This is above and beyond the most exciting thing about the subclass for me, and I'd love to know how it works.

What level do they get it, what's the range, and what's the roll?

[Zene]

I heard that the monster hunter ranger got a way to shut down teleportation. This is above and beyond the most exciting thing about the subclass for me, and I'd love to know how it works.

What level do they get it, what's the range, and what's the roll?

Level 11 feature, once per short rest, reaction, 60' range, when you see a creature casting a spell or teleporting. Wisdom save vs. your spell save DC. On a fail, their spell/teleport fails and is wasted.

[Potato_Priest]

Level 11 feature, once per short rest, reaction, 60' range, when you see a creature casting a spell or teleporting. Wisdom save vs. your spell save DC. On a fail, their spell/teleport fails and is wasted.

Thanks Zene.

That sounds like too little too late. Any caster worth their salt is going to make that save against a mere ranger, and you can't even use it every time a mezoloth pulls some kind of kinky move.

[agnos]

1. While Valor Bard is a better “team player”, yes it is made obselete by Sword. Defensive Flourish is just ridiculously good. Valor Bard is positioned as more of a backup melee who relies mostly on spells whereas Sword is intended to be on the front line at all times.

2. Sword Bard really begs for both Paladin’s Smite and Sorceror’s Quicken where you may not get Master’s Flourish until 18 and that’s if you get it at all.

3. I’m not sold that Lore Bard is the best Bard. I think I’d rate the as Lore > Sword > Glamour > Whisper >>> Valor. However as archetypes, Lore, Sword, Glamour, and Whisper occupy such different roles within a party. Lore Bard is the duct tape that can hold together almost any party and fill almost any lacking gap. Sword Bard is this front line tank that has the ability to shift gears on a whim. Glamour Bard let’s you constantly reposition and out range opponents while you drop AoE effects to help you kite. Whisper Bard is 007 who can heal you and keep the opponents on tilt.

4. I was referring to Bard in general with the new spells that’s can steal. There are a lot of good new (or reprinted) spells in XGtE; only 2 new ridiculous Bard spells, but since Bard steals from every spell list it doesn’t matter too much.

5. Can we just admit that Haste is a trap for Ranger? You don’t get an extra attack from Haste on yourself until 2 turns after you cast it. Plus, if you take 30+ damage it is reasonably likely to drop and cost you 1, 3, or 4 attacks. It and Swift Quiver look amazing, but they really don’t pan out in practice IMO when self-cast.

[spartan_ah]

what is the best sorlock combination now?
shadowhex seems nice, divine hex?

[Specter]

5. Can we just admit that Haste is a trap for Ranger? You don’t get an extra attack from Haste on yourself until 2 turns after you cast it. Plus, if you take 30+ damage it is reasonably likely to drop and cost you 1, 3, or 4 attacks. It and Swift Quiver look amazing, but they really don’t pan out in practice IMO when self-cast.

Haste is, indeed, a trap for many classes, especially those without CON save proficiency, but Swift Quiver is just as good as it gets for ranged Rangers/Bards. Bonus action casting and extra attacks on the same turn is not easy to complain of. The bad part is not being able to use Hunter's Mark along with it.

[Easy_Lee]

Haste is, indeed, a trap for many classes, especially those without CON save proficiency, but Swift Quiver is just as good as it gets for ranged Rangers/Bards. Bonus action casting and extra attacks on the same turn is not easy to complain of. The bad part is not being able to use Hunter's Mark along with it.

I've seen great results from haste. Since it doubles your speed and the extra action can be used to dash or disengage, it makes longbow sharpshooters effectively invulnerable to most creatures. A coordinated team with room to move can buff the archer then sit back while he clears the field.

[Specter]

I've seen great results from haste. Since it doubles your speed and the extra action can be used to dash or disengage, it makes longbow sharpshooters effectively invulnerable to most creatures. A coordinated team with room to move can buff the archer then sit back while he clears the field.

The results are great, no doubt about it, but risking losing an entire turn is something you don't want in most situations. But if you have CON save proficiency or War Caster (or even better, both), go for it.

[Zene]

The results are great, no doubt about it, but risking losing an entire turn is something you don't want in most situations. But if you have CON save proficiency or War Caster (or even better, both), go for it.

My favorite is a sorcerer twinning it on two party members, getting one-shotted, and then all of a sudden half the party is out of the combat round one :D

[PeteNutButter]

My favorite is a sorcerer twinning it on two party members, getting one-shotted, and then all of a sudden half the party is out of the combat round one :D

Sounds like this sorcerer needs to learn to cast shield, absorb elements, or counterspell. :P

[dejarnjc]

Haste is, indeed, a trap for many classes, especially those without CON save proficiency, but Swift Quiver is just as good as it gets for ranged Rangers/Bards. Bonus action casting and extra attacks on the same turn is not easy to complain of. The bad part is not being able to use Hunter's Mark along with it.

Not sure how haste is waste for a martial. You cast the spell and it immediately takes effect giving you the bonus AC, bonus speed, adv on DEX saves AND an additional action that can make an attack. So if you are a ranger, you're only sacrificing one attack to cast the spell.

It's not the end all be all but it's still solid. Better than solid if cast on a rogue who can now sneak attack twice a round with little problem.

[Zene]

Sounds like this sorcerer needs to learn to cast shield, absorb elements, or counterspell. :P

Oh he did (well, shield and counterspell at least). Shield doesn't always do the trick against giants ;)

[Ogre Mage]

Been studying this - it's great - and realized I'd not yet said thank you for putting this up! Thank you, Petenutbutter! Awesome thread - and you did a fair amount of work to set it up and share it. That was very cool!

I agree, this thread is very helpful. I appreciated Petenutbutter's analysis and several posters had useful input as well.

[Easy_Lee]

Hmm, so here's an idea: Fighter (Samurai) 7 / Chain-pact Hexblade X, Half-elf, Eleven Accuracy, Dual Wielder, TWF. Why do such a thing?

SAD with 18 AC from medium armor (half-plate refluffed as Karuta or some other Japanese-sounding word)
TWF: longsword / longsword = katana + wakazashi, Shadow Blade when you need to TWF even harder (special Shonen Anime form)
Superior familiar for scouting and snarky side-conversation
Since you barely need stats besides charisma, you can believably say your character is a skinny half-elven lass
Create your own advantage with samurai feature, familiar, or by using the Darkness + Devil's Sight trick - reliable advantage to fully utilize Elven Accuracy
Extra attack from fighter
Action surge
Good in melee or at range with agonizing EB
Call yourself a Swordsage just because you can.

Did I just create a katana plonker weeaboo fightan magical girl Mary Sue with a demonic sidekick? Sorry guys, I had to.

[rigolgm]

Better than solid if cast on a rogue who can now sneak attack twice a round with little problem.

Sneak attack is a "once per turn" ability, so I don't think Haste allows it to happen twice - despite the extra attack.

[Easy_Lee]

Sneak attack is a "once per turn" ability, so I don't think Haste allows it to happen twice - despite the extra attack.

Hold your action to attack on the next turn, use your haste action to make one attack. That's two sneak attacks.

[Sception]

Hmm, so here's an idea: Fighter (Samurai) 7 / Chain-pact Hexblade X, Half-elf, Eleven Accuracy, Dual Wielder, TWF. Why do such a thing?

SAD with 18 AC from medium armor (half-plate refluffed as Karuta or some other Japanese-sounding word)
TWF: longsword / longsword = katana + wakazashi, Shadow Blade when you need to TWF even harder (special Shonen Anime form)
Superior familiar for scouting and snarky side-conversation
Since you barely need stats besides charisma, you can believably say your character is a skinny half-elven lass
Create your own advantage with samurai feature, familiar, or by using the Darkness + Devil's Sight trick - reliable advantage to fully utilize Elven Accuracy
Extra attack from fighter
Action surge
Good in melee or at range with agonizing EB
Call yourself a Swordsage just because you can.

Did I just create a katana plonker weeaboo fightan magical girl Mary Sue with a demonic sidekick? Sorry guys, I had to.

Hexblade cha to attack is with one particular weapon only, not one type of weapon, so no TWF.

With bladelock instead of chainlock, you could go PAM instead of TWF, maybe human for arcane initiate to pick up find familiar for a magical cat? Not as cool or useful as a magical demon, and less likely to survive long enough to give you advantage very long, but still.

Or go booklock instead of chain? The book gets you find familiar, so there's your magical cat again, and your second weapon can be a club with shillelagh - ie, dual wielding your katana in one hand and its sheath in the other.

Or maybe just live without bonus action attacks. I mean, between hexblades curse, the spell hex, and other shenanigans you might not have spare bonus actions all that often anyway. Plus, unless you burn a feat on warcaster or go bladelock, you'll have trouble casting spells while dual wielding anyway.

How do you see the level progression playing out if you were to run this thing from level one?

[skaddix]

You can do the two weapon fighter hax if you pick Blade Lock instead of Chain Lock...just roleplay your weapon talking to you.

[Easy_Lee]

Hexblade cha to attack is with one particular weapon only, not one type of weapon, so no TWF.

With bladelock instead of chainlock, you could go PAM instead of TWF, maybe human for arcane initiate to pick up find familiar for a magical cat? Not as cool or useful as a magical demon, and less likely to survive long enough to give you advantage very long, but still.

Or go booklock instead of chain? The book gets you find familiar, so there's your magical cat again, and your second weapon can be a club with shillelagh - ie, dual wielding your katana in one hand and its sheath in the other.

Or maybe just live without bonus action attacks. I mean, between hexblades curse, the spell hex, and other shenanigans you might not have spare bonus actions all that often anyway. Plus, unless you burn a feat on warcaster or go bladelock, you'll have trouble casting spells while dual wielding anyway.

How do you see the level progression playing out if you were to run this thing from level one?

I don't have hexblade in front of me, so I'll take your word for it. Good points. It may work best with a quarterstaff and PAM in that case.

Level progression would be something like F1 > W1 > F5 > W3 > F7 > WX. Fighter is the better starting class, hexblade CHA to attack is the first priority feature, extra attack is the next priority, then darkness, Devil's Sight, the Pact boon, and other invocations and spells, then samurai 7 for additional sources of advantage and an extra ASI at 6, then warlock from there.

Edit: just realized that samurai get wisdom prof at 7 and their advantage feature at 3. In that case, if may not even be worth it to go to 7. Take them to 5 for extra attack and put the rest of your levels in warlock.

[PeteNutButter]

Hexblade cha to attack is with one particular weapon only, not one type of weapon, so no TWF.


It was pointed out in another thread that the cha to attack and damage is extended to your pact weapon, but does not remove the initial feature, so you can potentially TWF with hexblade so long as you take the blade pact.

The sad part is PAM is almost universally better than TWF, in every case except pure dex characters.

[Sception]

It was pointed out in another thread that the cha to attack and damage is extended to your pact weapon, but does not remove the initial feature, so you can potentially TWF with hexblade so long as you take the blade pact.

The original build was chainlock, not bladelock.


The sad part is PAM is almost universally better than TWF, in every case except pure dex characters.

Hence why I suggested PAM if switching to bladelock.

[Easy_Lee]

It was pointed out in another thread that the cha to attack and damage is extended to your pact weapon, but does not remove the initial feature, so you can potentially TWF with hexblade so long as you take the blade pact.

The sad part is PAM is almost universally better than TWF, in every case except pure dex characters.

The story of my life, I'll take this home, I'll work all night, to find a place in-siiide, for two weapon fightan...

Ahem. Anyway, let's try again.

Half-elf: 17 Charisma and 14 Dexterity and Constitution
Fighter 1: TWF
Hexblade 3: Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast, Pact of the Tome, Shillelagh
Fighter (Samurai) 6: Elven Accuracy and Dual Wielder, Precision Attack, Charisma goes to 18
Hexblade X

You cast shillelagh on your offhand weapon and use your Hexblade feature on the main hand. You can use TWO QUARTERSTAVES! I mean, if you want to. Or carry a longsword (katana) in a wooden scabbard that's also a club, and cast shillelagh on said wooden scabbard so you're fightan with your katana and its scabbard - honorable weeaboo.

And of course pick up find familiar for your animal companion, so you're a Mary Sue magical girl princess weeaboo with fightan magic

[Finlam]

Edit: just realized that samurai get wisdom prof at 7 and their advantage feature at 3. In that case, if may not even be worth it to go to 7. Take them to 5 for extra attack and put the rest of your levels in warlock.

If your stats allow it (a big IF) a single level of revised ranger would also net you adv in the first round of combat and were a few other nice to haves. Between the 6 rounds of free advantage from Samurai and the free first round advantage from Ranger, you'd be set to have at least one full combat with advantage ... with 0 effort effort.

[miburo]

Hmm, so here's an idea: Fighter (Samurai) 7 / Chain-pact Hexblade X, Half-elf, Eleven Accuracy, Dual Wielder, TWF. Why do such a thing?

SAD with 18 AC from medium armor (half-plate refluffed as Karuta or some other Japanese-sounding word)
TWF: longsword / longsword = katana + wakazashi, Shadow Blade when you need to TWF even harder (special Shonen Anime form)
Superior familiar for scouting and snarky side-conversation
Since you barely need stats besides charisma, you can believably say your character is a skinny half-elven lass
Create your own advantage with samurai feature, familiar, or by using the Darkness + Devil's Sight trick - reliable advantage to fully utilize Elven Accuracy
Extra attack from fighter
Action surge
Good in melee or at range with agonizing EB
Call yourself a Swordsage just because you can.

Did I just create a katana plonker weeaboo fightan magical girl Mary Sue with a demonic sidekick? Sorry guys, I had to.

Wouldn't you rather use a nodachi or zanbato (greatsword) with GWF feat and Defense fighting style? You'll get that bonus action attack whenever you kill someone, and you will be killing people with all those GWF +10 damage bonuses. You'd need blade pact instead of chain pact though.

Also waifish magical girl wielding a giant sword just seems way more hilarious and mary sue like.

[Sception]

I'm feeling this - though to be fair there is /also/ a fine tradition of magical girls with polearms of various kinds, so a bladelock version could work, but getting that all important animal guide gets harder then, requiring a feat (which in turn would probably require variant human), or else a third class in the build somewhere. A few levels of shadow sorcerer, perhaps, for find familiar and darkness you can see through without burning an invocation?

And, of course, paladin as always is a tempting substitute for samurai here. Less weeaboo, but with conquest or oathbreaker you can be even more edgy. Particularly oathbreaker, for the cha-to-damage aura? Find steed in place of find familiar for your animal friend? Or drop some of the edge and go for a typical paladin, maybe trade all-but-one hexblade level for celestial sorcerer, and go for a brighter, more traditional magical girl?

There are a lot of intriguing gishy builds available these days, between sorcadin, sorlock, pallock, fighter multiclasses, etc, and Xanthar brings a ton of potentially relevant subclasses to the mix, between samurai, kensai, hexblade, sword bard, shadow sorcerer, celestial sorcerer, conquest paladin, etc etc etc. I could even see some sort of storm barbarian/sorcerer working out. You could probably get a whole party of differently themed and hued magical weeaboo girls together, each with more unnecessarily complicated & twinked out build than the last.

I would love to play in such a group. What would the requirements be?

* must be some sort of gish - able to cast at least a few spells, but reasonably skilled with a chosen weapon, whether melee or bow, which should be preferred at-will combat option.
* must have a magical animal friend (find familiar or similar)
* must be a tween-to-teen girl, duh. Maybe one tuxedo mask type boy, but that's probably better as a DMPC guest star.
* not sure if elf/half elf should be required?
* power of friendship a must
* cha favoritism heavily encouraged
* deconstructive swerve into existential horror optional

[Zalabim]

Haste is, indeed, a trap for many classes, especially those without CON save proficiency, but Swift Quiver is just as good as it gets for ranged Rangers/Bards. Bonus action casting and extra attacks on the same turn is not easy to complain of. The bad part is not being able to use Hunter's Mark along with it.
Swift Quiver doesn't actually give you the extra attacks on the turn it's cast. For a character already using their bonus action, Haste has a lot to recommend it over Swift Quiver, starting with its lower level.

Not sure how haste is waste for a martial. You cast the spell and it immediately takes effect giving you the bonus AC, bonus speed, adv on DEX saves AND an additional action that can make an attack. So if you are a ranger, you're only sacrificing one attack to cast the spell.

It's not the end all be all but it's still solid. Better than solid if cast on a rogue who can now sneak attack twice a round with little problem.
It's more a waste for a martial to self-cast it. For the Horizon Walker, you cast the haste spell then make 1 attack instead of 2 or 3 attacks. Next turn you get another attack from haste and you maybe break even. You don't realize an offensive benefit until round 3 or 4 and that's well offset by how much more valuable "damage right now" is compared to "damage three turns from now". A rogue that can self-cast haste loses basically nothing though risks just as much with concentration, and both Haste and Swift Quiver work better when you can cast them just before the fighting starts.

[Rogerdodger557]

Sneak attack is a "once per turn" ability, so I don't think Haste allows it to happen twice - despite the extra attack.

I believe they are referring the the Scout Rogues level 17 ability: Sudden Strike. Allows for a bonus action sneak attack, as long as it is used on a different target.

[CravenRaven]

I wish they hadn't done away with the Divine/Favored Soul's Blessed Countenance and the doubled Charisma skill proficiencies it had. I love social/trickster characters and I had so many ideas involving the Actor feat and Subtle Spell. A warlock dip with Mask of Many Faces? Yes, please.

ButI'm still excited for when this book shows up on my doorstep soon. New rules to help streamline things (and keep my DM from making strange houserules), new subclasses for making neat multiclasses, and new art (!!!).

[Vaz]

It's not. AL only cares about on demand flight at 1st level. Beyond that it's fine.

Why? Does AL not equip enemies with ranged attacls or put you through a height limited dungeon?

[DivisibleByZero]

I believe they are referring the the Scout Rogues level 17 ability: Sudden Strike. Allows for a bonus action sneak attack, as long as it is used on a different target.

Nope. Subclass doesn't matter if the Rogue is Hastened.
Use the Haste action to attack, apply sneak attack.
Use your Bonus action for whatever you want.
Use your Action to Ready an attack upon X criteria.
Your turn is over.
Use your reaction to attack with the Readied action, and apply sneak attack off turn.

[Biggstick]

I think an overlooked feature of the Cavalier is it's level 15 ability. It requires that the Cavalier simply move 10' in a straight line, make a weapon attack, and you as the Cavalier can decide to have it make a Strength save against your Strength DC. Most people might look at this and see it's use while wielding a melee weapon. I see it's use for a primarily Strength based Cavalier as being able to pull out a Longbow and shoot at a creature flying away from the party. Since the ability only specifies weapon attack, you can use this ability with any weapon you're wielding, including ranged ones. It can only be used once per turn, but other then that limitation, you can use it as many times as you want while only worrying about running out of arrows/bolts.

While it might go a bit against the spirit of the ability, I think it's great to build in the capability to "bring a Dragon down" from flight on your standard Fighter without magic. It really adds to the defensive flavored abilities of the Cavalier by giving it a strong offensive option that can be used with both melee weapons and ranged weapons. It's also awesome in that it is on top of a bevy of other neat defensive-minded features that actually encourage a Player to play a Fighter beyond level 11 or 12 (where I see on these boards as being the highest people ever go when multiclassing Fighter with something else).

[rooneg]

Why? Does AL not equip enemies with ranged attacls or put you through a height limited dungeon?

They don't want to write low level adventures under the assumption that the party will have easy access to flight, because it tends to make a lot of stuff really easy. This isn't a hard and fast rule (i.e. there are adventures that hand out Winged Boots or Brooms of Flying in tier 1), but they don't want it to be as easy as "you just make a character who has a fly speed because it's a racial ability". That's why aarakocra aren't allowed as a PC race (at least not without some sort of special campaign certificate that says you can use one), and why the winged tieflings are banned, etc.

Once you get out of Tier 1 it's less of a big deal, since Wizards pick up Fly at 5th level people writing adventures for level 5 and up are used to having PCs with access to flight.

[Zene]

Why? Does AL not equip enemies with ranged attacls or put you through a height limited dungeon?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Asking “why” for AL restictions only leads to pain and frustration

[Grod_The_Giant]

Inquisitive strikes me as tailor-made for archers-- Swashbuckler might be better at landing sneak attacks in melee, but Insightful Fighting is near-guaranteed SA damage, and unlike a melee type you're not as likely to use your bonus action to Disengage.

[History_buff]

I've had great fun playing College of Swords (as UA but updated to Xanathar's)/fighter.

Currently level 10, 7 Bard 3 fighter (eldritch knight)

And let me tell you, I think I've made a viable bard tank. Between defensive flourish, shield (spell), defensive fighting style, and a cloak of protection he's got 20 AC base (21 after next ASI) with a top potential AC of 33.

We used to have a barbarian that had to leave due to scheduling issues so my character became tankish by necessity. It's worked out very well. It's a pretty fun gish build.

[Zene]

Inquisitive strikes me as tailor-made for archers-- Swashbuckler might be better at landing sneak attacks in melee, but Insightful Fighting is near-guaranteed SA damage, and unlike a melee type you're not as likely to use your bonus action to Disengage.

I guess it's useful in situations where you can't bonus action Hide (which gives advantage, so is strictly better when it works). But then are you taking Expertise in both Stealth and Insight? Or just hoping enemies' Deception checks are low enough it won't matter?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I guess it's useful in situations where you can't bonus action Hide (which gives advantage, so is strictly better when it works). But then are you taking Expertise in both Stealth and Insight? Or just hoping enemies' Deception checks are low enough it won't matter?
Depends on how often you can hide mid-fight, I guess; I can't imagine it's possible all that often. You really don't need Expertise in Insight; an awful lot of monsters have crappy Cha scores, and even the ones with decent values generally don't have any ranks in Deception.

[Gnomes2169]

To me, the Monk's ranged option with the Kensei is just so you can take the Longbow as your second weapon (with a versatile weapon as the other one, probably the Longsword), so that when the party decides to fight at range, you can still contribute instead of standing there impotently, waiting for someone to close to melee (like the monk in our last campaign had to a few times).

It's just an option to help you keep up a little bit. Not a bank breaker in the slightest, but the ability to get a +3 longbow (for 3 ki for 1 minute) that deals a little extra damage (gotta get that extra monk die and damage progression, since kensei weapons are monk weapons, you know) is much better than what monks have now.

... The kensei still belongs in melee if it can reach it, though. No arguing there at all.

[Biggstick]

To me, the Monk's ranged option with the Kensei is just so you can take the Longbow as your second weapon (with a versatile weapon as the other one, probably the Longsword), so that when the party decides to fight at range, you can still contribute instead of standing there impotently, waiting for someone to close to melee (like the monk in our last campaign had to a few times).

It's just an option to help you keep up a little bit. Not a bank breaker in the slightest, but the ability to get a +3 longbow (for 3 ki for 1 minute) that deals a little extra damage (gotta get that extra monk die and damage progression, since kensei weapons are monk weapons, you know) is much better than what monks have now.

... The kensei still belongs in melee if it can reach it, though. No arguing there at all.

The Monk is still completely viable at range, as they can all use Shortbows. Range on those is 80/320? I can't quite remember the long range number, either way, it's long enough for the Monk to be useful/contribute when engaging in ranged combat. A Monk could be argued to be an extremely efficient long-ranged combatant, as they eventually gain proficiency in all saving throws, Evasion, the ability to remove fear/charm effects, and the ability to reduce incoming missile damage. Even though a Shortbow is a decent enough ranged weapon, if a Monk somehow gains proficiency in Longbows (and grabs the Sharpshooter feat, though it's not necessary), they can be peppering damage throughout a fight without EVER being at risk of taking damage or being effectively removed from combat.

[BrusLi]

Making potentially 11 attacks a round at level 20 is pretty game breaking.

I think you miscalculated how many attacks,can a Samurai do at level 20.
That's because you forgot that Fighting Spirit is a bonus action like extra attack from GWM is.
Thus leaving you with 4 base + 4 action surge + 1 rapid strike + 1 reaction AoO(if we count in situational) ..making it= 10,not eleven.
But 9 reliable attacks, 8 are made with Advantage and 1 regular.

And if we take a look at Battlemaster at lvl 20 can achieve the same thing,but his advantage becomes a little bit more situational,since he must knock the target prone on his first attack,so the rest with action surge can have advantage.
So he can make 1 regular without advantage, 3 with advantage against prone, + 4 more with AS and bonus 1 from GWM(crit),= 9 total,8 with adv,1 regular.
But if creature is larger than what trip attack allows,he cant make them with advantage with his kit and samurai can,regardless of creature SIZE.
Downside is,samurai doesn't have Superiority dices to add to his damage if he wants to go all in above regular AS combo ...but they each have their own pros/cons..situational stuff.

Samurai looks like he is more DMG oriented and definitely has less utility than the BM,but has more reliable DMG on demand,if you will and much better capstone than BM.

Now the question is to Multiclass or not..since small percent of campaigns ever reach level 20,should you MC with samurai?
Bearbarian comes to mind,because of Resistance to all,or maybe zealot..all extend your life.. no more than a 3 levels in those.

But at what point? Fighter lvl 11 gives you third attack,level 15 gives you rapid strike..all of which are great..hmm

[PeteNutButter]

I think you miscalculated how many attacks,can a Samurai do at level 20.
That's because you forgot that Fighting Spirit is a bonus action like extra attack from GWM is.
Thus leaving you with 4 base + 4 action surge + 1 rapid strike + 1 reaction AoO(if we count in situational) ..making it= 10,not eleven.
But 9 reliable attacks, 8 are made with Advantage and 1 regular.

And if we take a look at Battlemaster at lvl 20 can achieve the same thing,but his advantage becomes a little bit more situational,since he must knock the target prone on his first attack,so the rest with action surge can have advantage.
So he can make 1 regular without advantage, 3 with advantage against prone, + 4 more with AS and bonus 1 from GWM(crit),= 9 total,8 with adv,1 regular.
But if creature is larger than what trip attack allows,he cant make them with advantage with his kit and samurai can,regardless of creature SIZE.
Downside is,samurai doesn't have Superiority dices to add to his damage if he wants to go all in above regular AS combo ...but they each have their own pros/cons..situational stuff.

Samurai looks like he is more DMG oriented and definitely has less utility than the BM,but has more reliable DMG on demand,if you will and much better capstone than BM.

Now the question is to Multiclass or not..since small percent of campaigns ever reach level 20,should you MC with samurai?
Bearbarian comes to mind,because of Resistance to all,or maybe zealot..all extend your life.. no more than a 3 levels in those.

But at what point? Fighter lvl 11 gives you third attack,level 15 gives you rapid strike..all of which are great..hmm

I may have miscalculated, but I'm not actually wrong. You don't technically need to use the fighting spirit as your bonus action and could have advantage form another source. So 11 is feasible. I suppose 12 is if someone hasted you, but that's just silly.

You're right. In practice 9 is probably what you'll get. Overall I feel the class is a middle ground between the simplicity of the champion and the usefulness of the battlemaster. It's power level is probably also somewhere in between those two.