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Grear Bylls
2017-11-09, 02:58 PM
So recently, I just started DMing the Lost Mines of Phandelver, and my players have been destroying the monsters. My players are a shadow monk, ranger, and artificer. Any idea how I can make combat tougher? Thx in advance!

Mastikator
2017-11-09, 03:11 PM
Pick monsters that counter the PCs builds but can be countered with a little bit of ingenuity.

Tinkerer
2017-11-09, 03:20 PM
First identify why the players are destroying the monsters so easily. Kinda hard to give advice on how to make the monsters tougher when we don't know what's up.

Darokar
2017-11-09, 04:07 PM
First, pay attention to what tinkerer said, but I'll try to come up with some general ideas. First, if you have things like goblins, make them smarter. Goblins are actually on the same level as humans when it comes to intelligence, its just they're usually depicted as losers. Have a goblin archer shoot, use the hide action, and move. Sniper tactics. Also, give them extra attacks and traps. Nothing like a little surprise to spice up combat. Give the goblins bottles of acid and alchemist fire to toss at unsuspecting players. You could also change some of the enemies. If you have a giant spider, make it a giant ogre spider. Ogre spiders weave their webs into nets that they carry, so it would be interesting if a giant ogre spider attacked instead of a giant wolf spider or something. Another thing about ogre spiders: they are super sensitive to light, and it can actually burn out parts of their retina. Luckily, their eyes mend quickly. Make of this information what you will. Oh, and a giant water spider could be cool too. They make basically scuba tanks out of their webs, so you could have that be a surprising water encounter. Idk how helpful this information will be, I’ve never played phandelver, so idk if there’s giant spiders anywhere or any water encounters.

KillianHawkeye
2017-11-09, 04:43 PM
Also keep in mind that some fights are supposed to be easy, because there needs to be variety to keep the game interesting. I'm not saying you shouldn't toughen up some monsters if you think you need to, just don't turn every fight into a life or death struggle. Ideally, you want some encounters to be easy and some to be hard, but none of them should be too easy or too hard.

LordCdrMilitant
2017-11-09, 04:57 PM
Tactics.

Darokar mentioned having archers shoot-and-scoot. If there's a player using concentration spells to support his teamates, have enemy archers target him first to break his concentration. If there's a player who needs to get into melee, have a group of enemies form a shield-line blocking access to enemy archers and casters. Perhaps have enemy casters cast buffs/heals for their units, and debuffs on the players. Have the enemies attack from ambush, if it's applicable.

Take advantage of terrain in the encounter zone. High ground can offer enemy ranged troops commanding fields of fire while protecting them from melee characters. Narrow passages can be defended by a small number of units whole others withdraw or provide cover fire, and limit the number of players who can be in melee. In large areas, the enemies can divide themselves, so that if the players attempt to go after one group the other group can perforate them/move in to engage with vulnerable support characters. Take cover.

Finally, consider attrition. Players have a finite number of Ki points and Spells and Hit Dice per day. Encounters at the end of the day can be considerably more difficult once the party is out of their powerful options and already drained by the day's combat. Also in this vein, consider having the enemies organize a night raid on the party.

In the same vein, consider that as the enemies become more aware of the party, they will prepare counters to defeat/neutralize known abilities of the party when preparing defenses and attacks. A prepared enemy can be particularly threatening to players.

Strigon
2017-11-09, 05:51 PM
Yeah, ditto what the others have said.
Keep in mind that the monsters are just as invested in the fight as the players. For many of them, too, much of their culture (or instincts, in the case of non-intelligent monsters) are based around fighting, in one way or another. It doesn't make sense for them to just sit there in open combat if they're outmatched. Think about what you would do to survive the fight, and do that.

The second trick is with encounter design; design intelligent, interesting encounters. Mix and match with complementary monsters; a squad of 4 ogres may be beefy, but they have no utility. An ogre that's supported by a mage for buffing and control, maybe with a pet monstrous spider ambushing from the ceiling is not only a more difficult encounter, but more fun on both sides of the table.

Psikerlord
2017-11-09, 07:07 PM
For normal monsters, just add more. Eg instead of 6 goblins make it 15. Just keep adding till it hurts.

For boss monsters, give them all the legendary template, but change the extra action thing to "off turn attacks" instead - after a PC takes an action, the monster gets a free attack (and move, if it needs to move to attack someone). This makes bosses hella scary, esp bit hitters with single attacks, but still limits spell casters to one spell per round. Possily also consider adding an Injuries & Setbacks table for Bosses when tehy crit or similar - they're special - they break the normal rules.

That should be enough to make your monsters scary again.

Grear Bylls
2017-11-10, 02:23 PM
First identify why the players are destroying the monsters so easily. Kinda hard to give advice on how to make the monsters tougher when we don't know what's up.

Really, the characters are super stealthy and suprising the enemies to death, and killing in the first two rounds.

I'm thinking about using a rug of smothering to kind of flip the tides. It will have surpriseon them and when they attack it,it will hurt themselves. Is this overly cruel?

Grear Bylls
2017-11-10, 02:29 PM
I also want to thank everyone for their help! Really appreciate it

wumpus
2017-11-10, 03:05 PM
Are the players optimized? (Artificer sounds likely, ranger not, and shadow monk I can't tell. But those are mostly from 3.x grumbles in the playground).

If the players are optimized, think about optimizing the monsters. That d*mn crab is a favorite. But goblins can get remarkably dangerous if only a few of them have adept levels and posses wands (either healing or offensive ones).

Whether or not they (players or monsters) are optimized, expect (intelligent) monsters to adopt player tactics. While goblins might not have the smarts to pull off quite the tactics that your players can (humans, drow, and other similar antagonists certainly will), they certainly should understand the basics and respond.

Darokar
2017-11-10, 03:56 PM
OOH! I just thought of one. Give the enemies like goblins magical equipment. Daggers that can cut out a players spell slot, starting at their lowest ones and working its way up. I saw one thread where goblins had necklaces with single orange beads. When the goblins were hit, the beads would explode. It made the party exceptionally weary and they made sure that whatever they were fighting didn't have a necklace. You could give the goblins something like hanzo's sonic arrows. Maybe they would have arrows that set off an aura of true sight, so players would have harder times sneaking up. Just a few ideas. Toy around with the idea of magic equipment, it'll really spice up combat.

Tinkerer
2017-11-10, 07:18 PM
Really, the characters are super stealthy and suprising the enemies to death, and killing in the first two rounds.

I'm thinking about using a rug of smothering to kind of flip the tides. It will have surpriseon them and when they attack it,it will hurt themselves. Is this overly cruel?

Ah, that makes more sense. I've actually heard some pretty deadly things about the monsters in that module but they are assuming equal footing. Stealth is one of the trickier player abilities to overcome, partially because it should be tricky to pull off. Usually you only have a member or two of the party able to fully stealth in so it helps for an attack or two and then becomes worthless.

If you are talking about the goblins bear in mind the disengage and hide bonus actions and have them flee, perhaps meeting up with and warning the next group of goblins. After all if a group of goblins is ambushed and half of them are wiped out in the first round there is no way that the remainder will stick around and try to fight. Thus allowing them to ambush the characters right back with the next group. "Pah, there are only 4 goblins in this patrol" Not seeing the other 8 lying in wait.

The rug is not overly cruel however on it's own it doesn't really present much of a threat.

Grear Bylls
2017-11-11, 09:42 AM
Thank you again, all!

So, my shadow Monk has dropped to zero once or twice, but that's it. Other than that, none of the monsters have really been that big of a threat. Really like the idea of the monsters employing tactics and including more of them.

However, I'm worried about the manic item ones. Cool ideas, but if the PCs kill the monsters, do they obtain magic items, or will the magic items disentegrate, teleport to a whatever plane of existance? How would that work?

I'm worried about the rug because it has a high amount of HP, more than the PC that will most likely fight it. It also would have surprise, so it can get off one attack, and if the other PCs somehow drop it to zero, the Monk (I assume him since he likes to sneak in first) will have taken 10 (from the rug), and a minimum of 33 (from allies). I do know I can make the rug have less HP if I want.

How do rugs work in your experiences? Are they OP for low level parties, because I kind of want the Monk to stop killing everything and leaving some enemies for the others, but I don't want to kill HIM. Can you all think of another thing that might have surprise on the party? We are about to reach cragmaw castle in the campaign, so something indoorsy would be best.

Again, thanks for the replies!

Grear Bylls
2017-11-11, 09:47 AM
Also, yes, the Monk is optimized, ranger somewhat, and artificer is built like a Paladin with a gun. He is warforged. Other players are human. Also, they roles for stats, so that may be a problem as well

Darokar
2017-11-11, 11:03 AM
You could have the magic items disintegrate or have there be a goblin warlock who gives the weapons their magic. If the players find this goblin warlock, they could keep the goblins from having magical items and he might carry some naturally magical weapons. Also, the magical items could be things that have heavy downsides but a few upsides. Example, those necklaces make the goblins explode when they're hit, so it wouldn't be possible to take it. I didn't really think about the pcs taking the daggers though, so you'd have to work around that.

Grear Bylls
2017-11-11, 11:34 AM
You could have the magic items disintegrate or have there be a goblin warlock who gives the weapons their magic. If the players find this goblin warlock, they could keep the goblins from having magical items and he might carry some naturally magical weapons. Also, the magical items could be things that have heavy downsides but a few upsides. Example, those necklaces make the goblins explode when they're hit, so it wouldn't be possible to take it. I didn't really think about the pcs taking the daggers though, so you'd have to work around that.

Yeah, the PCs LOVE to say, right after combat, "We all loot the -dead thing-", so I have to make up a random amount of Gold to give them, and then they proceed to ask, "Can I take his -weapon-", so I THEN have to say, "The -weapon- is s***ily made".

Darth Ultron
2017-11-11, 12:52 PM
However, I'm worried about the manic item ones. Cool ideas, but if the PCs kill the monsters, do they obtain magic items, or will the magic items disentegrate, teleport to a whatever plane of existance? How would that work?



The first big thing to do is to give the foes a lot of consumable items, like potions and oils and wands. and magic items with charges. They make good treasure, but only last a little while.

A single character can only wear and use so much, so you can give a lot of the same item types. A character can only wear two magic rings, so if they find a third they just have to carry it. This is even more true with big things like weapons.

You can try the sly trick of having silly looking items that a cool character would not want to wear.

Alignment items also work. If your characters are good, they might not want to use evil items. And some such items harm non-evil people.

You can also take away and destroy magic items too. Many players ''don't like this'' and will whine and complain that ''once their character gets any magic item they must have that item forever ". But if you can deal with that sort of bad player idea, you can have characters loose items.

Lord Torath
2017-11-12, 06:38 PM
The beads that explode on death (possibly destroying any other magic items wielded by the wearer) are not something most PCs are going to want to wear. Make the other items single use, and provide them in limited quantities. Only a couple goblins have the magic sonic/truesight arrows, and each only has one.

LordCdrMilitant
2017-11-13, 01:24 AM
I would make sure all equipment the enemies are using can be looted in the same state it the enemy was using it. Of course, any charges spent by the enemy of such items should be accounted for.

I wouldn't include a random monster just for difficulty's sake either, that ends up being thematically incoherent.


Having the enemies arrange counter-ambushes, and group of enemies raise alarms and/or flee. Make it apparent that the enemies know about them and are planning to deal with them, for example, luring them into a trap with "bait" troops, or discretely tracking their movement to arrange a powerful ambush at night, etc.

TeChameleon
2017-11-13, 01:42 AM
Obligatory mention of Tucker's Kobolds (https://tuckerskobolds.com/)...

Another tactic to take with the magic items is have them be powered by divine magic- anyone who's not a goblin who tries to use the thing gets a nice little curse from Maglubiyet or whoever. And if the players complain, point out that they're slaughtering their way through several different tribes, and they're getting the shamans and trainees and whatnot from a bunch of different ones.

If you want to expand on the Rug of Smothering idea, check out the Lurker Above (ceiling that tries to eat you), Trapper (floor that tries to eat you), Cloaker (cloak that tries to eat you), Mimics (can be anything made of stone or wood, and, of course, try to eat you) of various sizes, and... bleh, I know there are more 'dungeon furnishings that eat you' monsters kicking around, but I can't bring them to mind, nor can I find them after a not-so-quick search >.0

Still, that should be enough to give you the general idea.

Wraith
2017-11-13, 05:35 AM
If the problem is that your party are using exceptional Stealth skills to surprise-attack everything to death in one easy go, why not turn the tables?

The party knows that there will be a fight coming up very soon, so they send out the Ranger (?) to scout the next section of dungeon. Ahead of him is an empty room leading to another corridor, from where the sounds of kobolds can be heard talking amongst themselves. So, he sneaks through the room and looks at the threshold of the next doorway to make sure it isn't trapped....

...And then the ceiling turns out to be a Lurker Above (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/lurker-above-tohc/), three of the walls are Stunjellies (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/jelly-stun/), the floor is a Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/trapper/) and the door is a Mimic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mimic.htm). Roll initiative, dumbass. :smalltongue:

The cardinal rule of DMing: You have to play fair with your party, but if they do something to you then you're absolutely allowed to do it back to them. :smallbiggrin:

Grear Bylls
2017-11-13, 08:37 PM
Thank you everyone!

I will definitely try the magic stuff, especially divine kinds. That will definitely work.

I may also make a new secret dungeon in the LMoP Cragmaw Castle basement or something. This will probably be an "empty" dungeon with a ton of mimics and other things.

I don't really want to kill anyone, just drop some of them to zero.

But again, thanks for the help!

TeChameleon
2017-11-14, 03:33 AM
No worries, good luck and let us know back here how it goes! :smallamused:

Grear Bylls
2017-11-14, 08:40 AM
No worries, good luck and let us know back here how it goes! :smallamused:

I will definitely get back, but it may be a little late, as the "empty" dungeon be a bit, but I certainly will get back!

Kane0
2017-11-14, 08:46 PM
You can also try the 5e forum for more specific help, about the game and the adventure.

Segev
2017-11-14, 08:52 PM
Have you tried standing on the moon, facing the Earth, and hurling your staff at the ground near your monsters while shouting, "Make my monster GROW!" followed by a mad cackle?

Pugwampy
2017-11-16, 12:48 AM
Double your monsters hp or even triple it. If the fight lasts about five rounds consider it balanced . You are DM life is just this easy for you. This formula is for average monsters with normal attacks.

Remember this game is for 12 yrs and up . Adults have more optimal builds and cautious play styles .

Bulhakov
2017-11-16, 03:54 PM
Stealth/sneak kill tactics can be countered with a number of tricks:
- minions! (e.g. birds, dogs or other animals that can sound the alert)
- lots of hp (the sneak attack will take a chunk of it away, but there's still a long fight ahead)
- lots of enemies (even if they can be one-shot, they will swarm the PCs)
- regenerating/indestructible enemies that need a special tactic to kill (e.g. an unstoppable golem that needs to be rebooted with a command tablet inserted to its head slot)