multiclass rogue question

[SomePSYKO]

Hi i need some help figuring out the best class to multiclass my rogue we can use any books except Bo9s.
my character is a whisper gnome rogue level 4 with two-weapon fighting, weapon finesse, and improved initiative, my ability scores are 13(15-2) strength, 20(18+2) dex,18 (16+2) con, 10 int, 11 wis, 12, (14-2) cha.

Im not going to be able to use the ninja spy the ninja of the crescent moon or assassin classes, as i will have no contact to any ninja clans and im of the n/g alignment. I would prefer to avoid doing the standard fighter dip and my other party members are a swashbuckler, a druid, and a sorcerer.

[noce]

An option could be swashbuckler and daring outlaw. This gives swash chassis with sneak attack as a plus. It's unfortunate you already took weapon finesse, and you lack the INT anyway.

Swordsage would be a no-brainer, but it's not allowed.

Fighter or sneak thug are appropriate for your character, if you do not find anything else.

You lack mental stats to benefit from caster dips, except maybe cleric with a devotion feat.

Try to think about the prestige class you want to enter, then pick the base class most fitting/helpful for that prestige class.

[ShurikVch]

Standard 1-level Sneak Attack dips

Base classes:
Ninja (Complete Adventurer) //Sudden Strike
Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)
Spellthief (Complete Adventurer)

PrC:
Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) - it's "April, 1st", but still may work
Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) //Sudden Strike
Guild Thief (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting)
Master of Masks (Complete Scoundrel) - with Assassin Persona Mask
Nightsong Enforcer (Complete Adventurer)
Scorpion Wraith (Secrets of Xen'drik) //Sudden Strike
Shadow Thief of Amn (Player's Guide to Faerûn)

[ATHATH]

Standard 1-level Sneak Attack dips

Base classes:
Ninja (Complete Adventurer) //Sudden Strike
Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)
Spellthief (Complete Adventurer)

PrC:
Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) - it's "April, 1st", but still may work
Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) //Sudden Strike
Guild Thief (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting)
Master of Masks (Complete Scoundrel) - with Assassin Persona Mask
Nightsong Enforcer (Complete Adventurer)
Scorpion Wraith (Secrets of Xen'drik) //Sudden Strike
Shadow Thief of Amn (Player's Guide to Faerûn)
Don't forget the Sneak Attack Fighter variant.

[Eladrinblade]

Any particular reason why you want to multiclass?

But yeah, a dip into sneak attack fighter with the hit'n'run variant is gonna be your best move.

Or shadowdancer.

[SomePSYKO]

Any particular reason why you want to multiclass?

But yeah, a dip into sneak attack fighter with the hit'n'run variant is gonna be your best move.

Or shadowdancer.

as a rogue its best to take at least a single level dip since 20 is a completely dead level and some could argue 2 levels since 14 is also dead but then u lose 1 die of sneak attack.
also shadow dancer seemed such a meh class but it has caught my eye having a shade to assist as well as defensive roll and the shadow jump to help with flanking, problem being i dont have any of the required feats for it id need dodge mobility and combat reflexes.

if all else fails ill either do guild thief or just a standard fighter dip.

[Eladrinblade]

as a rogue its best to take at least a single level dip since 20 is a completely dead level and some could argue 2 levels since 14 is also dead but then u lose 1 die of sneak attack.
also shadow dancer seemed such a meh class but it has caught my eye having a shade to assist as well as defensive roll and the shadow jump to help with flanking, problem being i dont have any of the required feats for it id need dodge mobility and combat reflexes.

if all else fails ill either do guild thief or just a standard fighter dip.

shadowdancer is mainly good for that one level dip that gets you hide in plain sight, but if you're not taking those feats, then go with the fighter I mentioned. It gets you another die of sneak attack (11d6 total), a small bonus to fort saves (good because you're melee), and the hit'n'run part gets you +2 initiative and dex to damage on surprise+first round sneak attacks.

[Zaq]

Sure, you want to dip something eventually so that you're not Rogue 20, but is there a particular reason why you want to dip something right now? Rogue 5 is a perfectly fine level. Sneak attack and skills, you know? Both of those things are still very useful at level 5. They're kind of your stock in trade. Make sure that whatever you gain by dipping is worth what you're giving up.

Anyway, as mentioned, something that gets HiPS is a fine choice, and if you're noticing an immediate problem with what you're capable of doing right now, then by all means, multiclass away. If you have a specific PrC in mind that you need to qualify for, I suppose this is as decent a time as any to do it (though I'd be tempted to wait until after Rogue 5, which would let you get a total of 3d6 SA and also 8 ranks in all of the skills you're boosting, if you're spreading your points evenly; having 8 ranks qualifies you for a lot). But Rogues haven't been totally phased out of relevance at the ECL you're currently at, so don't worry just yet about solving a problem that won't be a problem for fifteen levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rogue 20 isn't as dead a level as you think (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a).

Consider dipping Spellthief to be able to use wands of any wizard spells they get access to, namely Wraithstrike. The Rules Compendium clarifies that spell trigger and spell completion items (wands, staffs, scrolls) take the same action to activate as the spell being used. Put a wand chamber in one of your weapons with a Wand of Wraithstrike, and use that before you full attack. You can skip the Spellthief level and still do this if you max out Use Magic Device.

[SomePSYKO]

Sure, you want to dip something eventually so that you're not Rogue 20, but is there a particular reason why you want to dip something right now? Rogue 5 is a perfectly fine level. Sneak attack and skills, you know? Both of those things are still very useful at level 5. They're kind of your stock in trade. Make sure that whatever you gain by dipping is worth what you're giving up.

Anyway, as mentioned, something that gets HiPS is a fine choice, and if you're noticing an immediate problem with what you're capable of doing right now, then by all means, multiclass away. If you have a specific PrC in mind that you need to qualify for, I suppose this is as decent a time as any to do it (though I'd be tempted to wait until after Rogue 5, which would let you get a total of 3d6 SA and also 8 ranks in all of the skills you're boosting, if you're spreading your points evenly; having 8 ranks qualifies you for a lot). But Rogues haven't been totally phased out of relevance at the ECL you're currently at, so don't worry just yet about solving a problem that won't be a problem for fifteen levels.

the reason im fretting over this right now is becauseif im gonna take something like a shadowdancer level dip or 2 i need to start preparing the pre reqs and take the feats needed.

[ATHATH]

the reason im fretting over this right now is becauseif im gonna take something like a shadowdancer level dip or 2 i need to start preparing the pre reqs and take the feats needed.
Why did you only start worrying about planning out your build now, rather than at character creation?

[Gruftzwerg]

If you want an not so common dip, I would go for warlock.

Eldritch Blast works with Sneak Attack and as least invocation Spider Climb at-will is great imho for a rogue character.

[Zaq]

If you want an not so common dip, I would go for warlock.

Eldritch Blast works with Sneak Attack and as least invocation Spider Climb at-will is great imho for a rogue character.

That's not a terrible suggestion if you can afford to lose the skill points. Lots of least invocations are worth dipping for, actually. Spider Climb, Shatter, +6 Balance/Jump/Tumble, +6 Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate, See Invisibility (concealment foils SA, after all), Darkness (+ the Blend Into Shadows feat from Drow of the Underdark = kind of a jury-rigged HiPS)—it's a very dippable class if you meet the stupid alignment restrictions (which the OP said that he doesn't meet, since he's NG, and Warlocks have to be Chaotic or Evil). Obviously you have to choose just one of those nice benefits, but still, it's something. If the alignment restriction isn't something your GM is willing to handwave, you could also dip one level of Dragonfire Adept and get Darkness, See Invisibility, +6 Bluff/Diplo/Intimidate, at-will Detect Magic/Identify, or +6 to all Knowledge checks, but you couldn't get Shatter, Spider Climb, or +6 Balance/Jump/Tumble, and you can't SA with your breath weapon. Still, options exist.

The tricky part is basically the lost skills (not only do you lose 6 skill points, you also have a tiny class list for that one level), which can be nasty if you're planning on using your skills to qualify for something. And as always, the golden rule of multiclassing is that you need to make sure that what you gain is greater than or equal to what you lose, including delaying your progression in your primary class. That said, delaying SA progression by one level is a lot less painful than delaying higher-level spells or similar abilities.

The other thing to keep in mind is that unless you're using fractional BAB (which I heartily recommend using, but which I don't want to assume in a game I know nothing about), this might make your BAB breakpoints fall at different character levels than you were expecting. This is relevant mostly if you were planning on taking feats that have BAB prereqs. Rogues don't usually go for too many high-BAB feats, but you mentioned that you have TWF. If you plan on buying all of the feats in the TWF tree (which is not a given, since that's hella expensive), you'll still have the BAB for ITWF at level 9, but you won't have the BAB for GTWF at level 15, while a pure-class Rogue would. (Again, fractional BAB solves this problem, and you might have better things to spend your feats on than ITWF and GTWF. Also, I meant what I said about not worrying too much about things that happen ten levels from now, so really, don't worry about the BAB too much unless you need +4 BAB by level 6 or something.)

Basically, it comes down to this: you don't need to multiclass right now. If you plan to take a PrC later, then sure, start looking at the prereqs, but if you're dipping a base class like Warlock or SA Fighter or Swashbuckler or whatever, you can do that at any point. That said, if you're bored with Rogue and want to multiclass right now, then you need to simply identify what problems you're having, because that will let you make an informed choice about what options you have to solve those problems. If you want to be better at being a Rogue, you're still at a level when more Rogue will make you better at being a Rogue (because mundane characters haven't scaled out of relevance yet, though there will come a day in most campaigns where that will be true). If you have a specific problem that Rogue cannot solve, then let's hear about that so we can figure out what other tools you'd like to have.

[Darrin]

Incarnate 2 or Incarnate 4 going into Umbral Disciple 10 is pretty solid. This gets you Hide in Plain Sight (Su), +3d6 sneak attack, some soulmelds/essentia to play around with, blindsight, Strength damage, and 25' reach.

Another possibility might be Ranger... maybe Mystic Ranger 2 (Dragon #336) or Wildshape Ranger 2 (Unearthed Arcana), then Unseelie Dark Hunter 2 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a) gets you into Unseen Seer. If you bump up Wis a little bit, you can add hunter's eye (PHBII) to your Dark Hunter spells.

Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 10 (Races of the Dragon/Complete Mage) would get you some Sorcerer spellcasting, but you need at least BAB +5 first. I know you said you didn't want to take the Fighter dip, but Hit-and-Run Fighter 2 (Drow of the Underdark) fits in really well there. Hexblade 4 could also get you into Unseen Seer. Take the Dark Companion ACF to debuff saves, then maybe Obtain Familiar/Improved Familiar feats for a Winter Wolf or something sturdier. Or really, any Cha-based caster would work: Bard 2, Spellthief 4, etc.

[John Longarrow]

4 levels in Bard also gives you a LOT of boosts that help out a stealth-centric character. Yes, you give up SA but you pick up things like Alter Self and party buffing.

If you are set on only one level, Warlock is really a nice way to go. All depends though on what feels right for the character.

[SomePSYKO]

So i believe i have finally come to a conclusion...

I plan on taking scout at levels 6-9, for my level 6 feat taking either craven or sacred strike, getting me 3d6 skirmish damage, +2 skirmish AC, +1 initiative, and a bonus feat of quick draw, and swift ambusher as my level 9 feat.

I also plan to take the skill tricks acrobatic backstab, Hidden blade, sudden draw, and mosquito bite.
thank you everyone who posted their suggestions, you all have been amazing help in my time of need :smallbiggrin:
I do still wish to hear an opinion or 2 on this idea though before its set in stone maybe some improvements?

[Darrin]

I do still wish to hear an opinion or 2 on this idea though before its set in stone maybe some improvements?

Make sure you read up on Daftendirekt's Swift Ambusher Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273733-3-5-Swift-Ambusher-s-Handbook-WIP).

You're probably going to need a cleric dip to pick up the Travel Devotion. There are two gnome deities with travel:

Rill Cleverthrush (Races of Stone): LN, Gnome god of creation and invention. Domains: Air, Knowledge, Magic, Travel. With a Cloistered Cleric dip, you can grab the Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and the Magic domain (to activate spell-trigger items as a wizard).

Baervan Wildwanderer (LG Deities 2.0 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome)): NG, Gnome god of forests, nature, and travel. Domains: Animal, Celerity, Good, Plant, Travel, and Trickery. There are several good domain choices here... Celerity Domain gets you +10' speed bonus. Animal Devotion is a great grab-bag of miscellaneous utilities, including 1 minute of flight. Trickery Devotion starts off a bit weak but once you reach 15th level there are some very interesting things you can do with your duplicate.

If you don't see anything in the Gnome pantheon you like, there are a couple other options to get Travel Devotion and another more interesting domain/devotion. You can worship an entire pantheon, such as the Asgardian pantheon. You select two domains and a favored weapon from a list (Deities & Demigods p. 167). This lets you pair up two domains that usually don't appear together, such as War and Travel. You can also say, "By Odin's Beard!" a lot, which is cool. The other option is the Dragon deity Io (Races of the Dragon p. 155). Can be any alignment, domains include Dragon, Knowledge, Magic, Strength, Travel, and Wealth. Magic is a strong pick for activating wands, although Strength Devotion with access to enlarge person is pretty tempting.

Lastly... Swift Ambusher isn't exactly a strong build, because Scout and Rogue overlap so much, and you essentially duplicate some of the issues with precision damage: triggering conditions can be quirky/unreliable, and certain creature types are completely immune.

[SomePSYKO]

You're probably going to need a cleric dip to pick up the Travel Devotion.

Lastly... Swift Ambusher isn't exactly a strong build, because Scout and Rogue overlap so much, and you essentially duplicate some of the issues with precision damage: triggering conditions can be quirky/unreliable, and certain creature types are completely immune.

well our dm has said to us out of character that this campaign will be ending around level 13ish depending on if we wish to continue or try different settings or characters etc, so i dont think taking cloistered cleric would be worth it if we continue on then ill take it at level 13.

plus i know swift ambusher aint exactly the most reliable but hey i aint trying to min max just enjoy my character plus the build feels like it fits my character.