hexblade - Specter

[8wGremlin]

Looking over the specter that gets created by the 6th level hexblade warlock in XgtE.
I was wondering how we can optimise this.

It's a normal Specter out of the MM, with some extra temp hp (based on 1/2 warlock level)
and gains CHA mod to it's attack rolls.

Now it lasts until your next long rest.

So what can we do with this?

some thoughts:


Don't have long rests - so a coffee lock or some variant

go tomelock for the new invocation: aspect of the moon, and never long rest!


Inspiring Leader Feat - can be used every short rest, and thus gives better tmp hp (level + cha mod)
Healer Feat - useful for more healing on the Specter
Darkness would be good to counter the Sunlight sensitivity, but is a concentration spell
Giving it some armour might be good, if you can it's AC sucks


Thoughts?

[Degwerks]

Coffee-lock and tome lock not sleeping doesn't mean you don't have long rests anymore, it just means that you don't have to sleep.

Healer feat... it's a ghost like being, you can't bandage its wounds.

Darkness spell, I'm not sure if they can see in magical darkness.

[Easy_Lee]

Check out its condition immunities which include prone and poisoned. It will work well inside of stinking clouds and sleet storms. That's one good way to use it in concert with other party members.

[Mikal]

Coffee-lock and tome lock not sleeping doesn't mean you don't have long rests anymore, it just means that you don't have to sleep.

Healer feat... it's a ghost like being, you can't bandage its wounds.

Darkness spell, I'm not sure if they can see in magical darkness.

If you don't need to sleep, you don't need to take long rests (unless you get some debilitating condition requiring it or need to get HD back.
Healing doesn't say it can't work on undead or Spectres, so nothing goes against it.
Darkness spell- So what if they can't see? Their opponents can't either, so the disadvantage cancels the advantages each get, leaving the the attack bonuses as they would have been otherwise minus the sunlight sensitivity.

[Elric VIII]

If you don't need to sleep, you don't need to take long rests (unless you get some debilitating condition requiring it or need to get HD back.
Healing doesn't say it can't work on undead or Spectres, so nothing goes against it.
Darkness spell- So what if they can't see? Their opponents can't either, so the disadvantage cancels the advantages each get, leaving the the attack bonuses as they would have been otherwise minus the sunlight sensitivity.

While this all seems to work just fine by RAW, I'd feel bad trying to pull this on my DM.

Is there some sort of neurotic damage healing effect on undead? Maybe you could try something like the 3.5 "Lord of the Uttercold" build. Basically he ssummons undead minions, surrounds his enemies, and bombs tem wit AoE negative energy to heal them and damage foes.

[Malifice]

If you don't need to sleep, you don't need to take long rests (unless you get some debilitating condition requiring it or need to get HD back.

Good luck with that argument in any actual campaign.


Healing doesn't say it can't work on undead or Spectres, so nothing goes against it.


Other than common sense. How are you healing an intangible ghost?

[JackPhoenix]

Other than common sense. How are you healing an intangible ghost?

Magic. Duh.

Aura of Vitality works on undead, as do Regenerate, but neither is available to hexblade. Of course, even if *you* avoid long rests, the specter doesn't have to, and gets fully healed afterwards.

[HermanTheWize]

What? You get a specter as a Hexblade?

[Degwerks]

What? You get a specter as a Hexblade?

At 6th level. When you kill a target humanoid you can get a specter from the corpse. 1/per long rest and it lasts until your next long rest or until it dies.

[HermanTheWize]

At 6th level. When you kill a target humanoid you can get a specter from the corpse. 1/per long rest and it lasts until your next long rest or until it dies.

That's...that's pretty cool actually.

[Mikal]

Good luck with that argument in any actual campaign.



Other than common sense. How are you healing an intangible ghost?

Eh, worse comes to worse it takes long rests while I don't and heals back up.

[DivisibleByZero]

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity
At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them."

If you don't sleep, you still need to take long rests. Sleeping is one of the activities which can be done during a long rest. Sleeping is not a requirement of a long rest.
A can be part of B =/= No need for A means no need for B
That's like saying: I'm vegetarian, therefore I never need to eat.

[Mikal]

"A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity
At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them."

If you don't sleep, you still need to take long rests. Sleeping is one of the activities which can be done during a long rest. Sleeping is not a requirement of a long rest.
A can be part of B =/= No need for A means no need for B

Why does a character need to take long rests? A warlock can do short rests instead. They just have to confirm they're doing short rests instead, and do something "active" during enough of the long rests period to just have 7 or so short rests instead, except for the cases where they're wanting to regain HD.

It's like saying "You go ahead and eat that entire meal, I'll just stick to the veggies because it's better for me and because I'm a vegetarian."

Or, more like
"You go ahead and sleep your eight hours, weak fleshlings. I'm going to run some laps and stay in shape for an hour, then read for the other seven."

And I mean seriously... if you are doing this you're spending an invocation at the very least, if not more, for a single spectre. You aren't building an army of them since you can only do it once per long rest anyway. If someone wants to go that route... why not let them?

[HermanTheWize]

Does anyone have a detailed screenshot of the Hexblade?

[DivisibleByZero]

It's like saying "You go ahead and eat that entire meal, I'll just stick to the veggies because it's better for me and because I'm a vegetarian."
No, it's more like, as I said in my edit above before you responded:

That's like saying: I'm vegetarian, therefore I never need to eat.
Just because you can choose not to partake in one particular aspect of something doesn't mean you never need to do that thing at all. You still need to do it, as it is required of your body. You just don't necessarily need to do all of it all the time.

Not requiring sleep does not remove the need for long rests.

[Mikal]

No, it's more like, as I said in my edit above before you responded:

Except it's not. Because in your example and post you're saying that someone must take a long rest, when there's nothing supporting it.

[DivisibleByZero]

Except it's not. Because in your example and post you're saying that someone must take a long rest, when there's nothing supporting it.

Nothing except physiology and common sense....

[Mikal]

Nothing except physiology....

You mean the physiology being bypassed by taking Aspect of the Moon and thus no longer needing to sleep...?

[DivisibleByZero]

You mean the physiology you've bypassed by taking Aspect of the Moon and thus no longer needing to sleep...?

Aspect of the Moon says oyu no longer need to sleep.
It does not say that you no longer need to take long rests.
Feel free to play it how you want at your own table.
Good luck convincing most DMs to agree with you and let it slide.

R esting
H eroic though they might be, adventurers can’t spend
every hour o f the day in the thick of exploration, social
interaction, and combat. They need rest—time to
sleep and eat, tend their wounds, refresh their minds
and spirits for spellcasting, and brace themselves for
further adventure.
Adventurers can take short rests in the midst of an
adventuring day and a long rest to end the day.

[Mikal]

Aspect of the Moon says oyu no longer need to sleep.
It does not say that you no longer need to take long rests.
Feel free to play it how you want at your own table.
Good luck convincing most DMs to agree with you and let it slide.

Show me where in the book it says you must take a long rest. Not must as in "must do so to enjoy benefits" but must as in "your character has to do this no matter what".
Go ahead. I'll wait.


R esting
H eroic though they might be, adventurers can’t spend
every hour o f the day in the thick of exploration, social
interaction, and combat. They need rest—time to
sleep and eat, tend their wounds, refresh their minds
and spirits for spellcasting, and brace themselves for
further adventure.
Adventurers can take short rests in the midst of an
adventuring day and a long rest to end the day.

They need rest yes.. time to eat, refresh etc.

And then at the end, it says that they can take short or long rests, not that they must take short or long rests.
So in other words... it's a choice.

[DivisibleByZero]

I just did

[Mikal]

I just did

You actually proved that someone can choose to take either/or. Nothing in what you posted showed that someone must ever actually do those actions, or provided drawbacks for not taking them beyond what taking them provides as benefits not being available.

And if there are no benefits to be gained from taking a long rest for a specific PC, who can avoid the drawbacks of things like sleep deprivation or long rest class abilities, then there's no reason for that PC to actually take one.

[DivisibleByZero]

You actually proved that someone can choose to take either/or, or neither actually. Nothing in what you posted showed that someone must ever actually do those actions, or provided drawbacks for not taking them beyond what taking them provides as benefits not being available.

"Heroic though they might be, adventurers can’t spend every hour of the day in the thick of exploration, social interaction, and combat. They need rest." somehow in your mind means that "Nothing in what you posted showed that someone must ever actually do those actions."
Okay.
The book flat out tells you it's needed, and that to you means that they never have to do it.
Good luck with that.

[Mikal]

"Heroic though they might be, adventurers can’t spend every hour of the day in the thick of exploration, social interaction, and combat. They need rest." somehow in your mind means that "Nothing in what you posted showed that someone must ever actually do those actions."
Okay.
The book flat out tells you it's needed, and that to you means that they never have to do it.
Good luck with that.

Yes, and those can be gained with Short Rests. The book flat out says that Short Rests can provide all of the above, otherwise Short Rests would not be an example of the type of rest that does the above.

I'm sorry that you can't seem to comprehend how things like words and sentences flow together in the context of rules, but you might want to learn if you're going to try and act as if what you're saying actually means anything of use when discussing those rules.

Unless there's something in the rules saying that Short Rests don't actually do that, and thus putting them in the same section was a mistake. Feel free to point out where that is. Probably would be in the errata.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm sorry that you can't seem to comprehend how things like words and sentences flow together in the context of rules, but you might want to learn if you're going to try and act as if what you're saying actually means anything of use when discussing those rules.
for posterity


You actually proved that someone can choose to take either/or, or neither actually.

Yes, and those can be gained with Short Rests.
Which is it?
Can they choose to take neither, or are they required as the book says?
Make up your mind.

[HermanTheWize]

Please!! Back to hexblade please.

Does anyone have the list of hexblade features?

[Mikal]

for posterity

In other words, you can't actually show me where it says Short Rests can't do what you claim that they can't, and that one must use a Long Rest to do so (minus the stuff LR gives you, sleep, non-Warlock spells, HD return, etc).


Please!! Back to hexblade please.

Does anyone have the list of hexblade features?

I think they're posted elsewhere, but can't be sure.

[Maxilian]

Well having in mind the OP and Divisiblebyzero debate, and having in mind what i checked.

By RAW, you don't need to take a short rest and long rest (just one or the other).

-You only regain your spend Hit dices at Long rests.

-You lose one exhaustion point at Long rest but need to drink and eat something (regardless if you don't need to drink or eat in general -looking at you warforged-)

The specter may last as long as you want as long as you don't take a long rest, but if the specter dies, you won't be able to create another until you take a long rest.

Note: Its not something extremely broken or cheesy as doing it like this does not give you any real benefit (well it makes the death of your specter more tragic, but nothing more).

Note2: It also make for an interesting character concept.

[Maxilian]

"Heroic though they might be, adventurers can’t spend every hour of the day in the thick of exploration, social interaction, and combat. They need rest." somehow in your mind means that "Nothing in what you posted showed that someone must ever actually do those actions."
Okay.
The book flat out tells you it's needed, and that to you means that they never have to do it.
Good luck with that.

I do agree that you need rest, i don't agree that you need long rest and short rest (One or the other, in most cases, everyone will need a long rest eventually, unless they are a Warlock with healing spell -Your hit dice only recover on long rest, so if you never take long rest, then you will eventually run out of forms to heal and just be every day, a little bit more tired and beat up until something kills you-)

Note: Can you mount a specter if you are a small race? (I imagine you can't cause they A) Are specters, they can even be in another creature space, though is a CAN ability not HAVE. B) Regardless if you can mount it, the specter STR is 1, so that make it impossible for it to have you on top.

[Easy_Lee]

It's noteworthy that some people in real life don't take "long rests," but instead take several naps per day. It's called polyphasic sleep and, sure enough, it doesn't seem to have the same benefits as a full night's rest. In D&D terms, not removing exhaustion or getting your hit dice back are a perfectly fine way to represent the limitations of only taking short rests.

Back on the specter, I still say the best way to use it is in combination with allied AoEs. There's a limit to what you can do with one character.

[Mikal]

It's noteworthy that some people in real life don't take "long rests," but instead take several naps per day. It's called polyphasic sleep and, sure enough, it doesn't seem to have the same benefits as a full night's rest. In D&D terms, not removing exhaustion or getting your hit dice back are a perfectly fine way to represent the limitations of only taking short rests.

Back on the specter, I still say the best way to use it is in combination with allied AoEs. There's a limit to what you can do with one character.

I wonder if it has a base limit on what needs to die before becoming a spectre. Can I slay a rat, and make its soul my slave for the long rest?

Just asking as the best use I could think of it would be to provide free advantage with the help action on a hexbladepact character.

[DivisibleByZero]

I do agree that you need rest, i don't agree that you need long rest and short rest (One or the other, in most cases, everyone will need a long rest eventually, unless they are a Warlock with healing spell -Your hit dice only recover on long rest, so if you never take long rest, then you will eventually run out of forms to heal and just be every day, a little bit more tired and beat up until something kills you-)

So what are you doing when the rest of the party takes a long rest?
You're not doing anything, that's what. Not doing anything for the entire time that the rest of your party takes a long rest means that you just took a long rest as well.
And before you say something to the effect of "Well I'll just break my long rest with something" ay DM in their right mind will not allow you to game the system like that.

This entire exercise reminds me of when people wanted to use their Sorlock slots to burn for more Sorc Points so that they could create more slots, which would then stay forever because it didn't say otherwise.
Guess what got errata'd?

The clear and obvious intent is that it lasts for the rest of the day, because that's what a long rest is meant to encompass.
Loopholes in the rules are precisely why I ADORE that 5e has embraced the Rulings, Not Rules philosophy.

[Mikal]

So what are you doing when the rest of the party takes a long rest?

Taking several short rests, with an hour long break of strenuous activity in there so you aren't doing it for 8 hours straight,


You're not doing anything, that's what. Not doing anything for the entire time that the rest of your party takes a long rest means that you just took a long rest as well.

Which is why you spend an hour doing something else. Perhaps making/crafting items. But you keep ignoring the fact that this has been mentioned so that you aren't just sitting there for eight hours straight because it shows you as being wrong.


And before you say something to the effect of "Well I'll just break my long rest with something" ay DM in their right mind will not allow you to game the system like that.

If by game the system you mean use it as allowed within the rules...


This entire exercise reminds me of when people wanted to use their Sorlock slots to burn for more Sorc Points so that they could create more slots, which would then stay forever because it didn't say otherwise.
Guess what got errata'd?

The clear and obvious intent is that it lasts for the rest of the day, because that's what a long rest is meant to encompass.
Loopholes in the rules are precisely why I ADORE that 5e has embraced the Rulings, Not Rules philosophy.


Paragraph one talks about errata, which is a ruling. Paragraph two says you prefer rulings, not rules. So which do you adore? Because you seem to be disagreeing with the rulings others would use in favor of your own, and in fact attack others whose rulings don't match your opinion.

Perhaps what you truly adore is "rulings and rules that agree with my opinion".

[Maxilian]

So what are you doing when the rest of the party takes a long rest?

Chat with the Specter, go on long romantic walks and maybe make a cake or something.



You're not doing anything, that's what. Not doing anything for the entire time that the rest of your party takes a long rest means that you just took a long rest as well.

You know that the long rest rule mentions:

If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity— the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.



And before you say something to the effect of "Well I'll just break my long rest with something" ay DM in their right mind will not allow you to game the system like that.


Why not? You make it sounds like is a exploit of something, you don't get much of this, and unless you have healing magic, you would die if you don't take a long rest.


EITHER WAY!!!!

It seems that Xanathar is comming with an optional rule that is to work around this:

If you spend 24 hours without a long rest, you get 1 exhaustion point. (DC 10 and increase by 5 for each 24 hours spend without long rest)

[Maxilian]

I wonder if it has a base limit on what needs to die before becoming a spectre. Can I slay a rat, and make its soul my slave for the long rest?

Just asking as the best use I could think of it would be to provide free advantage with the help action on a hexbladepact character.

Needs to be humanoid.

Note: Also to get that advantage, just get a familiar :P

[Mikal]

It seems that Xanathar is comming with an optional rule that is to work around this:

If you spend 24 hours without a long rest, you get 1 exhaustion point. (DC 10 and increase by 5 for each 24 hours spend without long rest)

Eh, I'd rule that Aspect of the Moon negates that personally, since the exhaustion point is meant to represent lack of sleep, which a character with Aspect of the Moon doesn't need. (Assuming of course Aspect of the Moon is in there as well).

Though I do like that rule in general. I think I'll be using it.


Needs to be humanoid.

Note: Also to get that advantage, just get a familiar :P


Thanks on the clarification. And it's more fun to make some poor enslaved soul do my bidding than a familiar ;)

[DivisibleByZero]

It seems that Xanathar is comming with an optional rule that is to work around this:

If you spend 24 hours without a long rest, you get 1 exhaustion point. (DC 10 and increase by 5 for each 24 hours spend without long rest)

Been doing that since day one, almost exactly as you stated it to be. Because, common sense. :smallwink:

[thepsyker]

I guess the question to me is why bother jumping through all these hoops? It isn't like the requirement of killing a humanoid you have hexed to get a new one is super difficult.

[Mikal]

I guess the question to me is why bother jumping through all these hoops? It isn't like the requirement of killing a humanoid you have hexed to get a new one is super difficult.

It's a fun thought experiment when you ignore the people who seem to get moral outrage at things that they slightly disagree with?

[DivisibleByZero]

It's a fun thought experiment when you ignore the people who seem to get moral outrage at things that they slightly disagree with?

Says the guy who posted this after someone disagreed with him?

I'm sorry that you can't seem to comprehend how things like words and sentences flow together in the context of rules, but you might want to learn if you're going to try and act as if what you're saying actually means anything of use when discussing those rules.

I don''t know why I removed you from my list. A problem I'll be rectifying.

[Maxilian]

Been doing that since day one, almost exactly as you stated it to be. Because, common sense. :smallwink:

Yes, it works great, though i'm still going to look for a group that let me plays a Hexblade Warlock MC with any taht can give me healing abilities, to get a Specter and never lose it (Would RP as my character killing his lover while getting its power in a burst of magic, and now he evades long rest to not lose its lover -Would it be good? I doubt it, would it be funny? Hell yes)

[Maxilian]

I guess the question to me is why bother jumping through all these hoops? It isn't like the requirement of killing a humanoid you have hexed to get a new one is super difficult.

I, not sure about the OP, like this mostly cause it makes for an interesting character concept.

Note: You don't need to kill a cursed target, just need to kill a humanoid.

[Mikal]

Says the guy who posted this after someone disagreed with him?


I don''t know why I removed you from my list. A problem I'll be rectifying.

That was posted in response to your inability to comprehend how things work, not because you disagreed with me.

[8wGremlin]

Thank you all, for an interesting read on what you'd rule on regarding long rest.
It seems that sleeping is the current topic on a number of threads now.

If we go with the assumption that the DM has ruled that with Aspect of the Moon (which is in XGtE) the character no longer needs to take a long rest, but can instead break that up in to many short rests or other activitie.

And as Maxilian pointed out


You only regain your spend Hit dices at Long rests
You lose one exhaustion point at Long rest but need to drink and eat something.


It seems that nothing more to add that What I originally posted then.
No other ways of enhancing this concept. and Yes it might just be easier to make a new one.

Then barring any further discussions on the nature of short/long rests - I declare this thread done!

[Elric VIII]

I wonder if it has a base limit on what needs to die before becoming a spectre. Can I slay a rat, and make its soul my slave for the long rest?

Just asking as the best use I could think of it would be to provide free advantage with the help action on a hexbladepact character.

It does need to be a humanoid. This video (www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpm85cZbyJI) has a shot of Hexblade, but it's a little blurry.

[Mikal]

So got my copy of Xanathar's this weekend...

1) Exceptions beat general rules. If an ability trumps a general rule, then it always trumps it.

2) Long rests aren't mandatory. Looking at the rule for exhaustion for lack of sleep, the very first sentence says that "Long Rests are never mandatory, but sleep is." As Aspect of the Moon negates sleep, then that specific power trumps the need for sleep, so someone with that power never needs to take a Long Rest.

In summary: Hexblade Tomelock with Aspect of the Moon can keep their Specter as long as they want until they choose to take a Long Rest, no matter how much downtime they have.

Game. Set. Match.

If someone could kindly quote this for Divisible by Zero since he blocked me, I'd appreciate it.

[Easy_Lee]

So got my copy of Xanathar's this weekend...

1) Exceptions beat general rules. If an ability trumps a general rule, then it always trumps it.

2) Long rests aren't mandatory. Looking at the rule for exhaustion for lack of sleep, the very first sentence says that "Long Rests are never mandatory, but sleep is." As Aspect of the Moon negates sleep, then that specific power trumps the need for sleep, so someone with that power never needs to take a Long Rest.

In summary: Hexblade Tomelock with Aspect of the Moon can keep their Specter as long as they want until they choose to take a Long Rest, no matter how much downtime they have.

Game. Set. Match.

If someone could kindly quote this for Divisible by Zero since he blocked me, I'd appreciate it.

I'll give it a shot. I don't think he's blocked me. Arguing with me is too much fun.

[Naanomi]

This is what can make warlocks that somehow get ahold of Animate Dead so strong (divine soul MC is easiest now I guess?); take a bunch of short-rests while everyone else takes long rests to build up your zombie legion...

[Mikal]

This is what can make warlocks that somehow get ahold of Animate Dead so strong (divine soul MC is easiest now I guess?); take a bunch of short-rests while everyone else takes long rests to build up your zombie legion...

And set the Specter as your undead zombie armies general!
Divine Soul also helps mitigate your lack of rebuilding your HD count.
Obviously use your Warlock spell slots to fuel Sorcery Points to get back the Sorcerer spell slots you can't restore normally anyway.