Ruin Domain - a domain for clerics of entropy, decline, and dissolution

[zeek0]

Link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1n74fDG0Oo20-buFl0OIdtHpqpXEpkr0v)

Any feedback is quite welcome. If you are curious about the mechanics of Beget Entropy, I've made up an xcel document here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bc_wliYV8Owv-bhSJoycmP5s3JP-va3K).

Thanks!

[Composer99]

I don't see any particular issues with this domain. It strikes me as having features that fit nicely within its theme.

The final ability is, I think, actually kind of weak, and also kind of fiddly. It's a 17th level feature that uses your reaction to affect a single creature, and who really wants to keep track of whether a monster who might not even be alive in 24 hours deals half damage with a specific spell or ability?

Why not make it so that a creature affected just deals half damage with all attacks, spells, and other abilities for some amount of time (any time between 1 minute and 24 hours would be fine IMO), and add on the weapon sundering effect as a rider? Something like:


When a creature within 30 feet of you deals damage with an attack, spell, or other ability, you can use your reaction to force the target to make a make a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the damage the target deals with that attack, spell, or other ability is halved, and the target deals half damage with all attacks, spells, or other abilities for the next 24 hours or until remove curse or similar magic is used on it. Whatever the result of the saving throw, if the target was making a weapon attack with a nonmagical manufactured weapon, that weapon is sundered, dealing half damage until repaired.

[Arte]

Seems cool, I’m working on a class with a kind of similar idea? I’m putting together the lore still but it ties to entropy as well. I am connecting it to D&D lore in as accurate a way as I can.
This seems like a very definitely offensive cleric I just need to get it in my head that not all clerics are healers. When I see War clerics it’s the same initial confusion.

Well on your domain:
Destruction: So you mean that you do siege damage to structures or any object leads to your spells damage being doubled?

Dissolution: This is nice very nice.

CD Beget Entropy: I thought at first this needed a limit and I somewhat still do but since it uses a reaction, I think its fine. It could probably use even a buff; I think this is fine since you are giving up a reaction to do it. However, reactions are not that expensive for clerics. It is good.

CD Disruption: The Wisdom save, I’m trying to think if anything that uses a wisdom save makes you lose concentration. I think even charm wouldn’t end your concentration Weird wouldn’t either… probably something does? It is just that this takes a side step around the normal way concentration is maintained. So if an npc was doing this to a player who had something like Warcaster this is out right avoiding that check, everything else is fine.

Oh Feeblemind would since it makes you too dumb to cast spells.

Potent Spellcasting: Okay.

Cripple and Despoil: The wording is a bit odd at a point, my guess is you are thinking of something in specific. So this isn’t a counter spell this is something else, maybe some flavor to explain what is happening to require a CON check, this is the cap stone so maybe?
The sundering part also throws me off a bit, what does sundering do and does this affect magic weapons? Can you then sunder a legendary weapon in this way? Could you sunder an item of Orcus? Alternatively, does this only affect mundane weapons?


Spell List: Nice choices and they make sense.

[zeek0]

I've updated the link above, to reflect some changes I made based on feedback here and elsewhere. Let me know how it sits!

[Arte]

Looks good, there are phrasing issues dotted around it but it is no biggie. You can always spot those later.
For the 17th level ability, this really needs some attention because depending on how you interpret it then it can be game breaking or kind of meh.
So a few things to fix it might be to tie all the things affected by this feature as being sundered and change the word sunder to suppressed, then add a duration to the suppression.

What you have done with this ability is gave this domain a single target anti-psionic/magic field with effective permanency versus psionic or magical weapons. That is if this feature affects all weapons, if it does not then it is kind of meh.

Okay hope that was helpful.

[nickl_2000]

Dissolution:
There already is a mechanism for doubling proficiency in Expertise. Based on your phrasing, I would take this Domain and also get Expertise from Bard or Rogue. Just have it give proficiency or if you are already proficient, expertise. That way it prevents the doubling up and uses existing mechanisms.


Beget Entropy
feels powerful compared to other Channel Divinity options only in how long it lasts. I think it feel better balanced if you used your reaction to half healing as well as your reaction to add damage. Even at that it is still pretty powerful, but feels more limited.


Cripple and Despoil
Should this damage non-magical weapons only?

[zeek0]

Looks good, there are phrasing issues dotted around it but it is no biggie. You can always spot those later.
For the 17th level ability, this really needs some attention because depending on how you interpret it then it can be game breaking or kind of meh.
So a few things to fix it might be to tie all the things affected by this feature as being sundered and change the word sunder to suppressed, then add a duration to the suppression.

What you have done with this ability is gave this domain a single target anti-psionic/magic field with effective permanency versus psionic or magical weapons. That is if this feature affects all weapons, if it does not then it is kind of meh.

Okay hope that was helpful.

Thanks for your comments. I'd be glad to know about the phrasing issues, since it's not easy for me to find them on my own (I'm too close to my own work).

For the 17th level ability, I'm uncertain that there's a problem. The feature diminishes a single ability of an enemy - a single spell they cast, a single attack type they have, or a single trait that causes damage. I think that this is not a problem because enemies at that level have other methods of causing damage, and the really big bads have legendary resistance.

As for this feature affecting magical weapons (which it does) - most of the time, when you fight an enemy in combat that is the last time you ever see them. You will not encounter them or their sundered weapon again. In the few cases where this does happen, I don't expect that enemy to remain diminished - either they grab a new weapon, or they have the wherewithal to mend their sundered blade.

I'm eager to turn this into a conversation; let me know what you think!


Dissolution:
There already is a mechanism for doubling proficiency in Expertise. Based on your phrasing, I would take this Domain and also get Expertise from Bard or Rogue. Just have it give proficiency or if you are already proficient, expertise. That way it prevents the doubling up and uses existing mechanisms.

Beget Entropy
feels powerful compared to other Channel Divinity options only in how long it lasts. I think it feel better balanced if you used your reaction to half healing as well as your reaction to add damage. Even at that it is still pretty powerful, but feels more limited.

Cripple and Despoil
Should this damage non-magical weapons only?

On Dissolution: I don't believe that Expertise is a game term; it only happens to be the name of the rogue and bard features. The community uses the word as a common phrase to describe doubled expertise, but a feature that grants doubled expertise still needs to state it explicitly.

On Beget Entropy: If you have concerns about Beget entropy, I would look to the xcel spreadsheet in the top post. It can last longer, than my estimated average, but it is unlikely to do so - and is very likely to last for less time.

On Cripple and Despoil: See my thoughts above about this affecting magical weapons. I think that this feature would be remarkably less interesting if it could only affect mundane things, and I think that a cleric of Ruin at the height of their power should be able to sunder magical weapons.

Thanks to both of you for your thoughts! I'm eager to hear your replies.

[Arte]

When designing content I think it's right to assume NPCs are capable of similar things.

I'm sure a player wouldn't enjoy getting their item sundered. I'm not sure legendary resistance would be applicable if you target the item rather than the creature and the argument could be made that the weapon sundering portion is independent of the save failure.

It really just takes time, after you've finalized what you want the domain to actually do then its about going through the phb to see similar skills and basically copy paste how parts of it are worded.

That's what I do.

Okay so now that you've confirmed "any" means every kind of weapon that 17th level ability needs to be pulled back I think.

The rest of the feature seems okay but the part about sundering really needs another look at.

As it is it is better than a sphere of annihilation in that it can destroy something like the sword of kas out right.

That's just an example of the power scaling. The "sundering" effect is on par with a Wish spell and is actually better because you get it back on a short rest, plus you wont have to worry about all the negatives of using Wish in that way.

[zeek0]

When designing content I think it's right to assume NPCs are capable of similar things.

I'm sure a player wouldn't enjoy getting their item sundered. I'm not sure legendary resistance would be applicable if you target the item rather than the creature and the argument could be made that the weapon sundering portion is independent of the save failure.

It really just takes time, after you've finalized what you want the domain to actually do then its about going through the phb to see similar skills and basically copy paste how parts of it are worded.

That's what I do.

Okay so now that you've confirmed "any" means every kind of weapon that 17th level ability needs to be pulled back I think.

The rest of the feature seems okay but the part about sundering really needs another look at.

As it is it is better than a sphere of annihilation in that it can destroy something like the sword of kas out right.

That's just an example of the power scaling. The "sundering" effect is on par with a Wish spell and is actually better because you get it back on a short rest, plus you wont have to worry about all the negatives of using Wish in that way.

I'll note that this doesn't actually destroy a weapon; it only cripples it until it is repaired. But I understand your concerns.

Would it feel better to you if I excluded artifacts from being affected?

[Arte]

I'll note that this doesn't actually destroy a weapon; it only cripples it until it is repaired. But I understand your concerns.

Would it feel better to you if I excluded artifacts from being affected?

It isn't so much about me personally.

I just took the time to go through what material I could to see if I found anything that this would break.

I have two points:

1. It would be easier if you used language that already exists, as a designer I fall into the trap of using words that come more quickly to me but it's always better and it takes time to find the established language and use that.

2. As it is this feature is far too powerful, in that it can end a campaign or adventure on its own. This means in certain campaigns its stronger than Wish chaining. As a spell on its own I would say this is beyond 9th level reaching the area of epic level spells. Why I say this is because it can affect any thing, typically to get rid of items of legendary history you need many mages a ritual, heck in most cases you can and instead have to seal the item away such as the sword of kas. The only creatures with indiscriminate and ultimate destruction ability are the deities within their realms.

My suggestion as I said before would be to throw away the idea or rethink it from another angle.

You can place a caveat that mundane weapons are sundered but that the effects magical weapons are affected by a subjected to the effects of anti-magic field.

That gives a very clear explanation of what happens here; for example a pact weapon would wink out of existence and a magic item would have its effects suppressed and so on.


I think as it is this thing is something mortals would only be capable of with several very powerful casters working on a ritual to seal or otherwise be rid of items.

Final note attaching a repair cost to a legendary sundered weapon is in effect destroying that item. If a player was hit by this it would take a whole adventure arch to repair that weapon if it is at all possible since items of legend gather their power over the course of centuries or millennia.

From a flavor perspective, I think creating an area of dead magic around a weapon still fits your theme of entropy.

[zeek0]

It isn't so much about me personally.

I just took the time to go through what material I could to see if I found anything that this would break.

I have two points:

1. It would be easier if you used language that already exists, as a designer I fall into the trap of using words that come more quickly to me but it's always better and it takes time to find the established language and use that.

2. As it is this feature is far too powerful, in that it can end a campaign or adventure on its own. This means in certain campaigns its stronger than Wish chaining. As a spell on its own I would say this is beyond 9th level reaching the area of epic level spells. Why I say this is because it can affect any thing, typically to get rid of items of legendary history you need many mages a ritual, heck in most cases you can and instead have to seal the item away such as the sword of kas. The only creatures with indiscriminate and ultimate destruction ability are the deities within their realms.

My suggestion as I said before would be to throw away the idea or rethink it from another angle.

You can place a caveat that mundane weapons are sundered but that the effects magical weapons are affected by a subjected to the effects of anti-magic field.

That gives a very clear explanation of what happens here; for example a pact weapon would wink out of existence and a magic item would have its effects suppressed and so on.


I think as it is this thing is something mortals would only be capable of with several very powerful casters working on a ritual to seal or otherwise be rid of items.

Final note attaching a repair cost to a legendary sundered weapon is in effect destroying that item. If a player was hit by this it would take a whole adventure arch to repair that weapon if it is at all possible since items of legend gather their power over the course of centuries or millennia.

From a flavor perspective, I think creating an area of dead magic around a weapon still fits your theme of entropy.

Good notes. I think that I'll change it so that only mundane weapons are properly sundered, but other weapons are affected for 24 hours as normal. Thanks for the points and fine reasoning.

[Arte]

Good notes. I think that I'll change it so that only mundane weapons are properly sundered, but other weapons are affected for 24 hours as normal. Thanks for the points and fine reasoning.

Just glad to be helpful.

Instead of 24 Hours maybe until the next dawn.

That cuts down on things people have to remember.

[Arte]

Actually speaking with a friend about it, he noted and rightly that a day is very long considering this is a short rest ability.

He rightly notes that it would technically be possible to keep it going forever based on how the mechanics are set right now.

For purposes of scaling:

If you go with short rest for that feature then, magic items should only be suppressed for one minute.

If you go with long rest for that feature then, magic items should only be suppressed for any period equal to or less than 4 hours.

If you are going with a weekly power like divine intervention then a day is fine.

It seemed like common sense after he pointed it out.