[3.5/PF] Skill system musings

[Eldariel]

I think people mostly agree upon PF skill system being an improvement over the 3.5 variant. Cross-class skills are much more doable with a static +3 for class skills instead of a scaling difference (basically just Skill Focus which is very rarely worth anything).

One problem I feel it causes though, aside from the lack of specialization options due to skill consolidation, is that class skill lists are still not sufficiently rewarding. If you have one level in a class granting a skill and 19 in one that does not, you'll be just as good at it as someone for whom it has been a class skill for 20 levels. Rogue in particular suffers.

Another issue is that PF essentially did away with synergy bonuses entirely (reasonable, they inflated certain skill results like Diplomacy far too much) which really removes the feeling of someone being an expert in a field carrying a benefit.


Obviously there's room for an extensive skill system redesign that would enable skills to better take the center stage and make skill challenges feel more like interactive encounters like combat encounters at the present, instead of rolling key skill and seeing failure or success. However, that's a tad more involved than just adjusting the system. Thus, bandaid.

I was thinking of some easy ways to address these things and one thought that occurred to me was splitting the current skillpoint system into a base skill bonus (getting your level in each class skill) and using points for the non-class skills, for the +3 that you get to class skills now, and skill tricks, which I think are a great way to separate skill specialists from someone with just a high modifier. I think "class base points" could be used to qualify for them much like BAB is used to qualify for martial feats. This way class skills actually reward you with something.

Then make the cap scale slowly; say +1 for every 4 levels it's a class skill for you. This way, you're looking at +5 between having something as a class skill vs. someone with 20 levels invested in classes granting same skill; significant but not insurmountable.


Summary:

Each level grants a base rank in each class skill.

Points used to specialize in skills above base rank; perhaps reintroduce some of the 3.5 separations in skills.

Skill cap (base bonus + rank) is ECL +3, scaling by +1 each 4 levels a skill is in class for character.

Skill-based qualification based on base bonus instead of ranks (some adjustments should of course be made).


Perhaps combine with skill fields where you gain bonus points in the field based on field attribute (Cha for social, Wis for perceptual, Int for intellectual, Dex for mobile, Str for physical) so that you don't need superhigh Int to be an athlete (and so that animals don't suck in physical and perceptual skills).

[Boggartbae]

Summary:

Each level grants a base rank in each class skill.

Points used to specialize in skills above base rank; perhaps reintroduce some of the 3.5 separations in skills.

Skill cap (base bonus + rank) is ECL +3, scaling by +1 each 4 levels a skill is in class for character.

Skill-based qualification based on base bonus instead of ranks (some adjustments should of course be made).


Perhaps combine with skill fields where you gain bonus points in the field based on field attribute (Cha for social, Wis for perceptual, Int for intellectual, Dex for mobile, Str for physical) so that you don't need superhigh Int to be an athlete (and so that animals don't suck in physical and perceptual skills).

PF made skills too easy for me, which is nice because I always thought that they were too hard before, but it could still be better

Do you worry that automatic skill ranks would make skills too easily accessible? are we getting rid of some of the base skill point pool to compensate?

That last point you made is really cool. Int is already useful for knowledge checks (which are the best skill checks) so it doesn't need all the skill ranks too.

Another thing that could be good is home brewing up some feats for certain skills, that could be like skill focus+ cool effects dependent on ranks. IDK maybe that's too much work though.

[BassoonHero]

Another issue is that PF essentially did away with synergy bonuses entirely (reasonable, they inflated certain skill results like Diplomacy far too much) which really removes the feeling of someone being an expert in a field carrying a benefit.

One of my biggest problems with the 3.5 skill system is that skill advancement isn't exciting. When you gain a rank, the only thing that happens is that a number goes up almost imperceptibly. Skill points are excessively "fiddly" in the sense that they force you to make a tremendous number of decisions that are individually inconsequential. The amount of time and mental energy you might spend carefully allocating skill points is all out of proportion to the perceived benefit. This stands in contrast to other "boring" numbers like BAB and saves, because you don't have to allocate points to them. Every time you level up, you choose a class that determines those figures and -- critically -- gives you new shiny things to play with. When all you get are numbers ticking up, you call it a "dead level". Skill advancement is almost always "dead"!

The exceptions are synergy bonuses, skill tricks, and occasional ad-hoc benefits (like not being flat-footed at Balance 5). The fact that synergy bonuses, which are themselves nothing more than small numeric bumps, are one of the more exciting parts of the skill system is indicative of a systematic problem. Skill tricks, on the other hand, are arguably the best part of the whole system, and I think that any substantial revision of the skill system should build in a similar mechanic from the very start.

I have some quibbles with skill tricks as currently implemented. First, buying them with skill points makes a fiddly system even fiddlier. Second, some skill tricks charge you for functionality that really ought to be part of the skill by default. Third, there aren't really that many great skill tricks for most characters, and the power ceiling is low. All of these are rectifiable.

One solution I've seen (from Grod, I think) is to simply give out skill tricks for free to anyone who meets the requirements. The main downside to this approach is that alongside skill consolidation it can seem to remove opportunities to make a character unique. When there aren't that many great skill tricks to begin with, the effect might be small.

The solution I'm working on is first to consolidate the skill list even further than PF does, second to add diverse, powerful skill tricks, and third to let everyone choose free skill tricks on a regular basis. Examples of powerful skill tricks for high-level characters might include:


Ignoring penalties for using movement skills at full speed.
Taking ten-foot steps.
The Defensive Roll ability.
Ignoring encumbrance penalties.
Breaking objects with a skill check instead of a Strength check.
Identifying magic items with a touch and a moment's concentration.
Noticing a creature hidden from all of your senses.
Using your own Stealth skill roll for your entire party.
Permanently dispelling a magical trap.


This way, gaining skill ranks is more like gaining a class level. The numbers tick up in the background, but you also get cool new stuff.

[Lazymancer]

Skill points are excessively "fiddly" in the sense that they force you to make a tremendous number of decisions that are individually inconsequential. The amount of time and mental energy you might spend carefully allocating skill points is all out of proportion to the perceived benefit.
Do you pre-plan your builds? You make all decisions only once and then simply put points where your skill ranks are below expected values.


third to let everyone choose free skill tricks on a regular basis.
Do you want to have Skill Expertises every even level (with feats - every odd)? I'd say, that would add fiddliness.

[edathompson2]

One of my biggest problems with the 3.5 skill system is that skill advancement isn't exciting. When you gain a rank, the only thing that happens is that a number goes up almost imperceptibly. Skill points are excessively "fiddly" in the sense that they force you to make a tremendous number of decisions that are individually inconsequential. The amount of time and mental energy you might spend carefully allocating skill points is all out of proportion to the perceived benefit. This stands in contrast to other "boring" numbers like BAB and saves, because you don't have to allocate points to them. Every time you level up, you choose a class that determines those figures and -- critically -- gives you new shiny things to play with. When all you get are numbers ticking up, you call it a "dead level". Skill advancement is almost always "dead"!

The exceptions are synergy bonuses, skill tricks, and occasional ad-hoc benefits (like not being flat-footed at Balance 5). The fact that synergy bonuses, which are themselves nothing more than small numeric bumps, are one of the more exciting parts of the skill system is indicative of a systematic problem. Skill tricks, on the other hand, are arguably the best part of the whole system, and I think that any substantial revision of the skill system should build in a similar mechanic from the very start.

I have some quibbles with skill tricks as currently implemented. First, buying them with skill points makes a fiddly system even fiddlier. Second, some skill tricks charge you for functionality that really ought to be part of the skill by default. Third, there aren't really that many great skill tricks for most characters, and the power ceiling is low. All of these are rectifiable.

One solution I've seen (from Grod, I think) is to simply give out skill tricks for free to anyone who meets the requirements. The main downside to this approach is that alongside skill consolidation it can seem to remove opportunities to make a character unique. When there aren't that many great skill tricks to begin with, the effect might be small.

The solution I'm working on is first to consolidate the skill list even further than PF does, second to add diverse, powerful skill tricks, and third to let everyone choose free skill tricks on a regular basis. Examples of powerful skill tricks for high-level characters might include:


Ignoring penalties for using movement skills at full speed.
Taking ten-foot steps.
The Defensive Roll ability.
Ignoring encumbrance penalties.
Breaking objects with a skill check instead of a Strength check.
Identifying magic items with a touch and a moment's concentration.
Noticing a creature hidden from all of your senses.
Using your own Stealth skill roll for your entire party.
Permanently dispelling a magical trap.


This way, gaining skill ranks is more like gaining a class level. The numbers tick up in the background, but you also get cool new stuff.

Interestingly enough, this focuses solely on skills for combat situations.

I'm currently running a game where the combat is inconsequential. There is never a threat of death from it.

Environment is the only danger. Mystery and social interaction is primary.

We are a very mature group though. Ranging from 35-44 in age category.

I use combat as a way to create a sense of being the Bad*** for those that love that.

So far the group said it's the best game I've ever run. They said it allows them to focus more on role play then on tweaking their characters constantly for combat.

Just food for thought.

[BassoonHero]

Do you pre-plan your builds? You make all decisions only once and then simply put points where your skill ranks are below expected values

I do. I generally work out the skills with a spreadsheet beforehand. For me, it's the least-fun part of building a character, largely because it can be a *lot* of effort to manage the points for a skill-intensive build. Then, once I've worked out the numbers, it can be difficult and annoying to re-allocate points if I want to pick up an extra language or something like that.


Do you want to have Skill Expertises every even level (with feats - every odd)? I'd say, that would add fiddliness.

It adds more decisions, true. (Reducing the number of skills largely compensates for this.) But I don't mind making character decisions that seem *consequential*, like adding a cool new ability. I find skill points to be "fiddly" because the benefit tends to be either a tiny numeric bonus or boring prerequisite box-ticking.

I'm still working on this system, but so far the list of skills is: Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Perception, Persuasion, Spellcraft, Stealth, and Thievery. I'm hoping to end up with no more than ten skills. If I succeed, I'll be able to reduce the number of skill points that many or most characters have to allocate.

Now, I do think it would still be nice to have an "easy mode" for players who don't want to pick skill tricks. Making Skill Focus a skill trick might do it; new players would have a simple option that doesn't add any real complexity.


Interestingly enough, this focuses solely on skills for combat situations.

Not necessarily combat, but "action" in general. Bluff isn't a combat skill, exactly, but bluffing the guards is a fundamentally different kind of thing than using the Profession skill. I think that concepts like profession, knowledge, performance, and languages aren't well-modeled by rolling skill checks. I'd rather find an even simpler mechanic to represent "my character is a religious scholar" or "my character is a weaponsmith" that doesn't compete for resources with "crunchier" concepts.

Knowledge is a pet peeve of mine. If something is vital to the plot, there's no point making the players roll for it. If it's not vital to the plot, there's rarely a mechanical benefit to making the roll. If it's cool flavor information you'd like to share, rolling is arbitrary and unnecessary. ("Covering the wall is a fresco depicting a massive battle. Roll Knowledge(History)." "I got a 14." "Er, never mind." *DM looks sadly at detailed notes.*)

The exception is identifying monsters, which should definitely have a mechanic. Otherwise, knowledge skills are often nothing more than a roleplaying tax.


I'm currently running a game where the combat is inconsequential. There is never a threat of death from it.

Environment is the only danger. Mystery and social interaction is primary.

That sounds like a fun game, but 3.5 sounds like an odd system for it. Its social mechanics don't have a lot of depth, and in my experience a mystery really benefits from a system that's more narrativist and less simulationist. But if it works for your group, that's great.

I'm working under the assumption that most D&D game will feature regular combat, that most of a character sheet will be combat stats, and that non-"action" mechanics can be much simpler in comparison. For a less-combat-focused game, I'd probably use a different game system, like FATE, Burning Wheel, or even Savage Worlds.

Or, if I wanted to use 3.5, I'd put some work into shoring up the non-"action" mechanics. Similarly, in most 3.5 games, sailing ability could probably be represented as a background trait or something, but if the game is nautically focused it might merit a full skill with sophisticated mechanics.

[death390]

~SNIP~


Ignoring penalties for using movement skills at full speed.
Taking ten-foot steps.
The Defensive Roll ability.
Ignoring encumbrance penalties.
Breaking objects with a skill check instead of a Strength check.
Identifying magic items with a touch and a moment's concentration.
Noticing a creature hidden from all of your senses.
Using your own Stealth skill roll for your entire party.
Permanently dispelling a magical trap.


This way, gaining skill ranks is more like gaining a class level. The numbers tick up in the background, but you also get cool new stuff.

you do know that several of these are actuallly do-able with the current skills right?

Movement modes at full speed:
climb full speed: -20 to check (or DC+20).
Balance full speed: -5 (DC+5)
Hide/Move silently Full speed -5ft: -5 (DC+5)
Hide/Move silently attacking/running/charge: -20 (DC+20)
Swim full speed: -20 (DC+20)
Tumble full speed: -10 (DC+10)

10ft step DC 40 tumble check (OA originally)

don't know of a way to do defensive roll besides rouge past 10 skills or thief-acrobat.

encumbrance is a strength problem not a skill problem. what skill would you honestly do for that? nothing helps you lift things better. bag of holding/portable hole. or do what every DM i have played with does, ignore encumbrance except for major things.

breaking objects is again a strength problem. i could possibly understand a bonus to sundering objects you have a high enough craft bonus in. but other than that ????

identifying magic item without identify you can kinda do that.
appraise: DC 50 use detect magic on item appraised.
ID potion: spellcraft DC 25.
ID items/creatures aura: needs detect magic: spellcraft DC 15+spell level.
decipher scrol without read magic: spellcraft DC 20+ spell level.
ID magic item basic property: Spellcraft DC 50 + caster level.
ID magic item FULLY: Spellcraft DC 70+ caster level.
Magical Appraisal skill trick (CS): requires detect magic: Spellcraft check to ID aura +5, act as if cast Identify (no cost) takes an extra minute. usable 1/day.
appraise magic value feat: use appraise to ID magic item DC 10 + caster level. 25g cost, 8 hours per item.

Notice creature that you cant see/smell/ ect? done.
DC 20 spot check lets you know there IS something invisible near you.
DC 30 spot if its not moving.
DC 40 spot for un-moving invisible object.
DC 40 spot for invisible un-moving non-living invisible creature
*DC 80 to straight up defeat an illusion. (spot vs visible, listen vs auditory)

DC 60 search check to sense magic.

sense motive:
DC 25/15 to detect enchantment.
DC 60 discern partial alignment.
DC 80 discern total alignment.
DC 100 DETECT SURFACE THOUGHTS!!!

stealth for full party? technically yes but damn difficult.
hide another person -30 to check (DC +30). " a character can hide another adjacent creature whose size is no more than one category larger than the character’s own. Modifiers to the check for the size of the creature still apply, as do all other penalties, including those for moving faster than half speed. Likewise, a character can only hide another creature when it is not under direct observation by a third party. The creature the character hides remains hidden until it is spotted or it takes some other action that breaks its concealment, as normal. "

Dispel magic traps. hmm technically no, but if you have trapfinding and the trap is not inherent (such as spikes) and has an activation method you can use disable device to break the trap.

[death390]

dont forget there are alot of amazing skill features that can only be done with enough points.

balance:
walk on water DC 90.
Walk on CLOUDS DC 120.

Bluff
non-magical suggestion spell DC + 50.

climb:
flat and smoth vertical wall DC 70.
flat and smooth ceiling DC 100.

Craft:
QUICK CREATION DC +10. (by the day is DC * result in copper) this means that technically result/ 24 is per hour (note this is vastly inflated since you dont work for 24 hrs straight). so if you have a 50*50 result you could make a 100 copper item in a hour. EG 1g item in a hour. if you went more reasonable apporach of 8 hour day that is 3x as much. thats either 50 or 150 arrows in 1 hour.

Diplomacy is straight broken look at other threads for this. only way to counteract are mindless enemies.

Escape artist.
DC 80 if you can fit your head in you can get through it.
DC 120 pass though a wall of force.

Handle animal is also technically broken.
train other creature (basically anything) DC 60 + HD. 2 months.
reduce time to 1 min DC +100. or 1 day +50. so that amazing dragon you just ran up against is now my pet. HAHA.

Sleight of hand
displace an willing creature by 10ft DC 80 and make a separate hide check to see how hidden YOU made them.

Swim up a waterfall DC 80.

Tumble
ignore fall damage DC 100.
reduce fall damage by 10 ft/ DC 15 (15/30/45/60/75/90)

Use rope: animate rope as spell DC 80.

Auto-hypnosis (CPsy)
poison DC + 5: ignore poison's secondary effects.
DC 30: keep active while in negative hp.
DC 50: second save against mind affecting abilities if first failed.
DC 60: gain temp HP 10+wis mod. 1/day.
DC 60: gain DR 2/- 1/day.

[Midnightninja]

Since you mentioned PF, are you familiar with
Skill Unlocks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/#SIDEBAR-Skill-Unlocks/) from PF Unchained? I'm not sure if it would add too much power or too much fiddliness to what you want to accomplish, but they could give you ideas.

Unchained also has
Consolidated Skills (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/consolidated-skills-optional-rules) and Grouped Skills (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/grouped-skills)


Also, though I'm not a fan of the book, and it would be very campaign dependent, there are also Occult Skill Unlocks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-rules/occult-skill-unlocks/).

EDIT:
Unchained also has Background Skills (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills). I need look into these.

[BassoonHero]

you do know that several of these are actuallly do-able with the current skills right?
Yes.


Movement modes at full speed:
You can absolutely do this; you don't need a skill trick. What the skill trick would do is remove the penalty. A few prestige classes remove the penalty as well, but I don't think that this sort of cool-but-low-powered ability needs to be gated behind a specific prestige class with a pile of other unrelated abilities.


10ft step DC 40 tumble check (OA originally)
Indeed. However, there are two reasons I don't like that implementation.

First, gating the ability with a high DC makes skill bonus optimization far more significant. An unoptimized character (full ranks, decent ability, no custom magic item) will find a DC 40 nearly unattainable. (You're supposed to hit the OA tumble DCs by taking levels in prestige classes that offer double-digit bonuses to the tumble skill, which is just a roundabout way of gating the ability behind a prestige class.)

Second, a character with the ability to make ten-foot steps is probably going to be doing it a lot. Rolling for it every time seems unnecessary to me; high-level characters have to roll enough dice as it is. And as a player, it can be frustrating to have to roll to do the cool things you want your character to do. The DC here doesn't represent opposition or an environment challenge. When you miss an attack, it's because your opponent was better at dodging. When you miss a jump, it's because the gap was just a little too far. When you miss the fixed DC to make a ten-foot step, there's no “because”. It doesn't feel like you failed to overcome a challenge, it feels like your cool ability just didn't work.


encumbrance is a strength problem not a skill problem. what skill would you honestly do for that?
Athletics, which encompasses climbing, jumping, and swimming.

I should further clarify that I intent to use the “Encumbrance” penalty type for armor check penalties and for the Entangled condition. A character with that skill trick can shrug off just only the weight of heavy armor and a heavy pack, but some of the effects of a web spell.


breaking objects is again a strength problem.
This would be under Athletics as well. I think that charging through, say, a solid stone wall is a totally reasonable thing for a high-level fighter to do. They say that high-level 3.5 characters are basically superheroes, and if someone wants to be the Juggernaut, that's fine by me. In fact, I took some inspiration from Mutants and Masterminds, which provides ways for characters to accomplish feats of superhuman strength without necessarily having absurdly high strength scores.


identifying magic item without identify you can kinda do that.
Sure. My feeling is that in 3.5, magic item identification is cheap enough (by design) that letting someone do it “for free” is no big deal. As a skill trick, it would even be available to non-casters. It would be useful for a rogue, for example, to be able to identify magical effects when scouting ahead. In baseline 3.5, the answers to this are “be a spellcaster” or “use a magic item”. (Of course, those are the answers to everything!)

The DCs for spell-less identification really irk me. There is no point to making a DC 50 skill check to save a cantrip. They remind me of the ten-foot-step rule — the designers didn't want to be ordinary things that everyone can do, so they gated them behind absurdly high skill DCs. But just because an ability should be exceptional doesn't mean it should be inaccessible. Identifying magic items isn't something every rogue should be able to do, but nor should it be reserved for epic-level characters and optimizers.


Notice creature that you cant see/smell/ ect? done.
The existing perception rules are a bit of a mess when it comes to magical concealment and extraordinary senses. I'm implementing a flat penalty to the Perception for perceiving something that's hidden from your sight (or other primary senses). But the idea of a character who's especially good at using their other senses when they can't see is practically a cliché. I feel that the existing rules' solutions to this are “get an outrageous skill bonus” and “get extraordinary senses that bypass the entire skill system”, which are basically special cases of the aforementioned “be a spellcaster” and “use a magic item”.


stealth for full party? technically yes but damn difficult.
Difficult indeed! I think it's perfectly fine for the party sneak to learn to “guide” their clankier party members. A penalty would still be called for, and it's not necessarily something that every stealthy person would know how to do — hence, a skill trick.


balance… bluff… climb
It's practically perverse that it takes a DC 120 balance check to replicate a second-level spell. Someday, I'll probably take a nerf bat to the dozens of spells that make skills redundant.

Anyway, if a high-level monk wants to be able to run on water, then why not? Sure, it's unrealistic, and sure, it makes sense that it should be very difficult, but I don't think there's any reason to set an impossible DC. Why not make it a skill trick?


Craft
I'm not keeping this skill. Mechanically, it's so weak that there's no real point to it. I don't know exactly what I'm going to replace it with, but suffice to say that if a character wants to make their own mundane, virtually-worthless arrows, then it will require no rolls and minimal investment.


Diplomacy is straight broken
Yeah, it just needs brand new mechanics. There are several promising options available.


Escape artist.
Escape Artist is kind of a weird skill because it's used very rarely, but when you need it you really need it. It doesn't quite seem to fit under Acrobatics or Thievery, but I'm hesitant to get rid of it entirely.


Handle animal is also technically broken.
I'm also punting this one to whatever “backgrounds” system I end up with. It seems vanishingly unlikely that anyone's game session would be improved by a really cool Handle Animal check. If you have “Animal Training” listed under your Background Benefits (or whatever), then I'll assume that you can train any animals you want off-screen. If not, you can pay someone a pittance to do it for you. The sillier theoretical uses of the skill can just disappear.


Sleight of hand
displace an willing creature by 10ft DC 80 and make a separate hide check to see how hidden YOU made them.
I have no idea how or whether to integrate such a mechanic into an improved skill system. It's setting off even my nonsense detectors.


Swim up a waterfall DC 80.
If someone told me that Perseus did in once, I'd believe them. This, to me, means that a high-level fighter should be able to do it too, and thus that DC 80 is outrageously high.


Tumble
ignore fall damage DC 100.
reduce fall damage by 10 ft/ DC 15 (15/30/45/60/75/90)
This is another one of those skill uses obviated by a first-level spell.

Anyway, I'd keep this mostly as-is (under Acrobatics), except that I'd make ignoring all fall damage a skill trick.


Use rope: animate rope as spell DC 80.
I don't think that Use Rope needs to exist.


Auto-hypnosis (CPsy)
I'd probably just shove these benefits into the Endurance feat or something.



Pathfinder definitely has some cool skill variants. I hadn't seen these before.


Skill Unlocks
Many of these look like reasonable skill tricks.


Consolidated Skills
Very similar to what I'd like to do with the existing skills, except that I don't see a point to a few of them, such as most of the functionality of Nature, Performance, Religion, Society, and Survival.


Occult Skill Unlocks
I could envision some of these fitting in as skill tricks. Hard to say.

Background Skills also look pretty neat; they're the sorts of things I'm looking to eliminate from the main skill system. I'd probably go even farther and eliminate skill checks for background skills.

[death390]

so for encumbrance your basically looking for "freedom of movement" plus not losing speed to due weight.

also several of those skills ability's are remade behind a prestige class that you don't want to take.

i am with you that skills feel either useless or to difficult. however that is due to the nature of scaling that we have. especially when so many spells make skills redundant.

i mean honestly:
open lock - replaced by knock
speak language - replaced by tounges.
balance/climb/jump -replaced by fly. /spider walk (not for jump).
swim - replaced by several spells that give you a swim speed or the ability.
intimidate- partly replaced by things that cause fear.
diplomacy/bluff - partly replaced by the charm series spells. or spells that give ridiculous check bonuses like glibness.
escape artist - partly replaced by freedom of movement.
craft - replaced by minor creation/fabricate/ect.
disable device- not necessary 90% of the time if you have any other way of setting off the trap. like a summoned monster to do it for you (wonderful reserve feat gives you an unlimited amount)
heal - it on its own is straight usless. except to do a couple DC 15 checks and to stabilize. the stabilize can be done automatically with a 10g magic bandage.
disguise - replaced with disguise self spell (or combo for +10 to check).
move silently - silence spell.
hide - invisibility (or greater).
search - partly replaced by detect series of magic.

dont forget about the many skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel btw. those are mostly cool even if only usable 1/ encounter.

[BassoonHero]

so for encumbrance your basically looking for "freedom of movement" plus not losing speed to due weight.
Sort of. Specifically, it would probably be a reduction of the numeric encumbrance penalties and armor speed reduction. Generally, I am looking to equip noncasters with tools to deal with the standard spellcasting shenanigans. For instance, where it currently takes a Str check to move while in a Web, it would take an Athletics check (no skill trick required). Spells like Solid Fog would work the same way. So a particularly athletic character could simply power through an effect that's currently a no-save-or-lose.

Freedom of Movement is problematic, partly because it's not clear what it does and partly because what it does is so *absolute*. There's an unfortunate dynamic in high-level 3.5 where noncasters auto-lose to a wide variety of effects unless they pick up outright immunity via magic items, which then renders those effects useless. It contributes to caster supremacy, to magic item dependency, and to the "rocket-tag" nature of high-level combat. A comprehensive solution to the problem would be quite an undertaking, but I think there's some low-hanging fruit to be plucked.


also several of those skills ability's are remade behind a prestige class that you don't want to take.
Yeah, skill tricks could largely replace some skill-based prestige classes like the Thief-Acrobat. I think that in 3.5, a system so strongly focused on monster-slaying, it's hard from a character-building perspective to invest heavily in skills at the expense of said monster-slaying. Even the improvements I'd like to make to skills are utility- or defense-oriented at most. But the skill system is "walled off" in the sense that the system doesn't allow you to invest your skill points into attack bonuses and such (Knowledge Devotion notwithstanding). That works fine in one direction. But when nifty skill options are four levels deep in a class that just isn't very good a slaying monsters, it's a bit awkward.

I've played a thief-acrobat; it was great fun. I don't think it would have been any less fun if I had taken straight rogue levels and acquired the Thief-Acrobat abilities via skill tricks.


spells make skills redundant.
This is definitely a on my list of problems I should Do Something About one of these days.


open lock - replaced by knock
One thing that might help this is skill consolidation. Then, on one hand there are plenty of other things to do with the Thievery skill, and on the other hand there are other ways to deal with locked doors anyway, starting with simply breaking down the door. I think that Knock should be made less convenient than having an actual skill user along. Last game I DMed, the party thief was captured, killed, and impersonated by an evil shapechanger. The shapechanger was using a Chime of Opening for lack of any actual thievery skills. When the players uncovered the deception and killed the shapechanger, they found the Chime of Opening an adequate replacement for the thief. They called it "the easy button".


speak language - replaced by tounges.
This bothers me less, because Speak Language is like Knowledge in that it will almost never actually matter. If they players need to understand a language, the DM will provide. If they don't, then, well, they don't. And in a situation where understanding a language would be helpful but not essential, the odds that a party member will happen to know that particular language (often an obscure monster language) are slim.


balance/climb/jump -replaced by fly. /spider walk (not for jump).
swim - replaced by several spells that give you a swim speed or the ability.
Yeah, this is a major issue with 3.5. Because flight is available, it's necessary, and we're back to "you must be this magical to play". Nixing or severely restricting magical flight might be the only solution here. Of course, this throws off a lot of encounters that requires flying. Not an easy problem to solve. It can be mitigated somewhat by giving Acrobatics and Athletics other uses.


intimidate- partly replaced by things that cause fear.
For combat applications, sure. For noncombat applications, hopefully not; if the players are brute-forcing their social interactions with enchantment spells, there are more efficient options.


diplomacy/bluff - partly replaced by the charm series spells. or spells that give ridiculous check bonuses like glibness.
Glibness is pure cheese; it needs a ban. Charm Person I feel is manageable if you interpret it conservatively and enforce in-character consequences for going around putting the mind-whammy on random NPCs. This is definitely something that could get out of hand.


escape artist - partly replaced by freedom of movement.
Freedom of Movement is a necessary evil because of the otherwise-irresistible nonsense it protects you from. Fix that, and Freedom of Movement can be rewritten.


craft - replaced by minor creation/fabricate/ect.
Eh, Craft can be replaced by a few hundred gp over the life of a character. I'd toss it in the low-mechanics "background" section.


disable device- not necessary 90% of the time if you have any other way of setting off the trap. like a summoned monster to do it for you (wonderful reserve feat gives you an unlimited amount
Infinite summons is definitely a problem. Summons overall are problematic to an extent, but meh. At the levels at which you can span summons, most traps will probably be self-resetting. Plus, just finding the trap to set it off requires a skill check.


heal - it on its own is straight usless.
Agreed. I don't even know what a Heal skill should do for adventurers. I can't even punt it into the "background" category because it's less mechanically substantial than Speak Language.


disguise - replaced with disguise self spell (or combo for +10 to check).
Offloading the skill itself into Bluff would make the combined skill less vulnerable to magical replacement.


move silently - silence spell.
hide - invisibility (or greater).
Fixing the perception mechanics is the first step. There needs to be a way for players to deal with invisible or silent creatures, other than magical detection. Then, you have a way for NPCs and monsters to do the same. In the end, you're left with opposed Stealth and Perception checks, with magical concealment and extraordinary senses each putting weight on their own side of the scale. In base 3.5, magical concealment bypasses Spot and Listen and extraordinary sense bypass Hide and Move Silently. Combining Stealth and Perception makes each skill sense-agnostic, which I believe is the basis of a solution.


search - partly replaced by detect series of magic.
The mundane use of the Search skill to find loose change and room features is in my opinion totally superfluous. Players should automatically find anything that isn't carefully hidden. And if something is carefully hidden from high-level adventurers, its aura isn't showing. Detect Secret Doors and Detect Snares and Pits are variously useless and baffling.


dont forget about the many skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel btw. those are mostly cool even if only usable 1/ encounter.
Yep, definitely.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

In regards to skill tricks, I’ve found that automatically granting PF’s skill unlocks to anyone with the appropriate ranks makes the multiples of 5 ranks feel like milestones, improving the feel of investing in skills slightly. I wonder how skill tricks might be best incorporated into the system?

[BassoonHero]

That's similar to Grod's approach of just giving out the Complete Scoundrel skill tricks for free to anyone who meets the prerequisites.

The benefit of this approach is that it's less things a player has to pick out. It's also a very simple fix to incorporate into the existing skill system. The benefit of a more complex approach (like the one I'm going with) is that it allows for deeper customization and more impactful tricks.

One minor concern I have with the unlocks is that it loads all of the “tricks” into a monolithic dump every five levels (if you're maxing skills). This wouldn't come up in the actual Pathfinder system because you only get those benefits for a signature skill, but if you waive that requirement (and rightly so) you'd run into that.

[martixy]

In regards to skill tricks, I’ve found that automatically granting PF’s skill unlocks to anyone with the appropriate ranks makes the multiples of 5 ranks feel like milestones, improving the feel of investing in skills slightly. I wonder how skill tricks might be best incorporated into the system?

I placed PF's skill unlocks on par with skill tricks - 2 pts to purchase.

What's wrong with how skill tricks work now exactly?
(I myself did make them at will, with the appropriate sanity tweaks.)
There's also plenty of homebrew you can mine for additional tricks, or ideas for ones.

And I'd suggest bumping skill points globally to account for that.

[death390]

there are several styles of thought i guess for this.

simplest would be manifesting a kind of spell as a bonus for a decent DC. diplomacy/ intimidate/ bluff acting as charm person. getting detect magic with a lower DC for appraise. read scroll at easier DC for decipher script. feather fall for tumble. hide getting a blur function. move silently getting silence. concentration and endure elements. ect.

the other thought is those skill tricks/ unlocks. this is alot more free form. but that can be a problem on its own. the biggest problem with skill tricks are two fold. 1/ encounter use and limited number known allowed.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You could give Skill Unlocks for free and make people buy the tricks. You could even use the 5/10/15/20 Unlock milestones as a gating mechanism for stronger, more impactful tricks! I think the main problem with tricks currently is the limited uses and limited tricks known. I would remove one or both personally.

[Psyren]

I'd much rather have something like Unchained's Skill Unlocks to make the rogue feel special - giving them a bonus, rather than taking something away from the other classes that want to invest in a given skill. I would also port in Skill Tricks from 3.5 and come up with some that you need levels in certain skill-based classes to take (like rogue and ranger), with Rogue getting the most.

[BassoonHero]

I'd much rather have something like Unchained's Skill Unlocks to make the rogue feel special - giving them a bonus, rather than taking something away from the other classes that want to invest in a given skill. I would also port in Skill Tricks from 3.5 and come up with some that you need levels in certain skill-based classes to take (like rogue and ranger), with Rogue getting the most.
To be honest, two of my biggest pet peeves about 3.5 skills are the Trapfinding ability and the Track feat. If the party barbarian wants to put his limited skill points into Thievery, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to find traps with it. If we want to make it difficult for him, we can make it a cross-class skill. Arbitrarily declaring that only the rogue class can use a mundane skill properly is surely a holdover from older editions without a robust skill system.

Track is similar; the Survival skill barely does anything else anyway. No one will ever spend a feat on merely having the opportunity to use skill points to track. Tracking is especially problematic in 3.5, because at higher levels it's easy to make yourself untrackable (or functionally so). For these reasons, I'm not quite sure how to integrate it into my own system. The simplest solution would be to make it a basic function of Perception. In principle, I wouldn't be opposed to making it a skill trick, but in practice this would require fixing tracking at higher levels. Tracking teleportation would be useful indeed, but I'd have a hard time calling that the same thing as following a trail through the woods.


the biggest problem with skill tricks are two fold. 1/ encounter use and limited number known allowed
I'd definitely get rid of the 1/encounter limit. It's generally unnecessary, it's a memory issue, and it feels arbitrary.

[Psyren]

Agreed that skill tricks don't really need a limit. A check (that can be tweaked based on circumstances) should be enough.


To be honest, two of my biggest pet peeves about 3.5 skills are the Trapfinding ability and the Track feat. If the party barbarian wants to put his limited skill points into Thievery, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to find traps with it. If we want to make it difficult for him, we can make it a cross-class skill. Arbitrarily declaring that only the rogue class can use a mundane skill properly is surely a holdover from older editions without a robust skill system.

Track is similar; the Survival skill barely does anything else anyway. No one will ever spend a feat on merely having the opportunity to use skill points to track. Tracking is especially problematic in 3.5, because at higher levels it's easy to make yourself untrackable (or functionally so). For these reasons, I'm not quite sure how to integrate it into my own system. The simplest solution would be to make it a basic function of Perception. In principle, I wouldn't be opposed to making it a skill trick, but in practice this would require fixing tracking at higher levels. Tracking teleportation would be useful indeed, but I'd have a hard time calling that the same thing as following a trail through the woods.

Pathfinder fixed both of these issues, so you're in luck!

- "Trapfinding" just makes you a little better at finding traps (it's not required to even try) and lets you disable magic ones with a skill check (they can still be disabled in other ways, like dispelling them.)

- Track was removed entirely, and anyone can use Survival to follow tracks. Rangers just get a bonus to it.