Pricing and crafting a golden necklace?

[Scryangi]

A lot of magical equipment comes in the form of jewellery, but I cannot find how to craft a mundane golden necklace nor how to price it. Is there a Craft: Whitesmith? Is it thrown into Craft: Alchemy like every other mundane equipment not related to hammering at a forge? A quick CTRL-F on the Treasure page of the SRD gives only one result for Necklace and its worth an average of 3500 gp. And is this masterwork or should I use Masterwork Transformation first?

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/masterworkTransformation.html

[Deophaun]

Craft (jewelry) would be the obvious skill from the list of most common. Otherwise, sure. You can have craft (whitesmith).

As for the price: how much do you want it to be worth?
As for the DC: how high do you want it?
As for is it masterwork: Does it give a +2 bonus to bling?

And that's how crafting art pieces (which is what your necklace is) largely works.

It should be noted that this has absolutely nothing to do with magic item creation. If you make a 3500 gp necklace and then throw 10,000 gp of magic enhancements on it, you're going to get no discount on the 10,000 gp of magic enhancements, but you will get the 3500 gp value of the necklace in addition to the half-value of the magic enhancements if/when you sell the item.

[Scryangi]

Thank you for your reply.

So there's no official ruling for say, melting gold pieces into a necklace? And a silly question: the value if treasure, is that the market price or selling price? To use that necklace as an example, is the idea that a player receives 3500 gp when selling it, or 1750--selling goes for 50% of market price. In the latter case, in order to meet the WBL guidelines I should drop double the loot for players. In the first, then buying a necklace costs 7000 gp.

[noce]

Based on SRD rules about cost of an item vs cost of raw materials, a necklace costs thrice the value of its weight in gold.

[Deophaun]

So there's no official ruling for say, melting gold pieces into a necklace?
Well, there is: you need raw materials equal to 1/3rd the value of what you are creating. If you want a necklace worth 3000 gp, you... well... you'll be making a REALLY big necklace out of 1000 gold coins. Fit for a colossal ancient dragon. :smallbiggrin:

Although it would technically be possible to make a necklace out of other jewelry for something that has comparatively little gold but would have multiple layers of work tied together.

If you want small things worth a lot, gems work much better because they are valued by quality rather than be weight alone.

Anyway, with crafting, the real constraint is always time. You may want to make a statue worth 1,000,000 gp, but that will take you years.

And a silly question: the value if treasure, is that the market price or selling price? To use that necklace as an example, is the idea that a player receives 3500 gp when selling it, or 1750--selling goes for 50% of market price. In the latter case, in order to meet the WBL guidelines I should drop double the loot for players. In the first, then buying a necklace costs 7000 gp.
I'm going to go off of 3.5 here because I doubt Pathfinder changed this. But, there is a distinction between what I'll call gear--weapons, armor, magic items, vehicles, even furniture--and what the game calls trade goods--cattle, wheat, gold, salt, gems. Gear sells for half value, unless you find a specific buyer for it (your PCs are specific buyers, so they always pay full price). Trade goods are just as good as money, so they always sell for full price. Art objects--paintings, novels, statues, jewelry--are trade goods, so they will always sell at full value.

And this is very important for adventurers who will find that hauling around a literal ton of gold to buy their gear is impractical compared to a pair of sapphire earings, a ruby ring, emerald bracelet, some lose diamonds, and an opal crown.

[noce]

Well, there is: you need raw materials equal to 1/3rd the value of what you are creating. If you want a necklace worth 3000 gp, you... well... you'll be making a REALLY big necklace out of 1000 gold coins. Fit for a colossal ancient dragon. :smallbiggrin:

Or you could just craft a platinum necklace with a diamond pendant.

[Lazymancer]

Although it would technically be possible to make a necklace out of other jewelry for something that has comparatively little gold but would have multiple layers of work tied together.
Exactly.

1) take 40 gp worth of gold (0.8 pounds) and make rough golden wire that would cost 120 gp
2) take rough golden wire and make smooth golden wire that would cost 360 gp
3) take smooth golden wire and make golden chain links that would cost 1,080 gp
4) take golden chain links and make golden necklace that would cost 3,240 gp - and shouldn't weight more than 0.8 pounds

[Scryangi]

Exactly.

1) take 40 gp worth of gold (0.8 pounds) and make rough golden wire that would cost 120 gp
2) take rough golden wire and make smooth golden wire that would cost 360 gp
3) take smooth golden wire and make golden chain links that would cost 1,080 gp
4) take golden chain links and make golden necklace that would cost 3,240 gp - and shouldn't weight more than 0.8 pounds

That is exactly what I am looking for. How did you get this information? I heard there's something like this about cutting gems or such?


Well, there is: you need raw materials equal to 1/3rd the value of what you are creating. If you want a necklace worth 3000 gp, you... well... you'll be making a REALLY big necklace out of 1000 gold coins. Fit for a colossal ancient dragon. :smallbiggrin:




And that was hilarious. XD

Also, thank you very much for making the distinction between gear and art/trade-goods clear.

[Eladrinblade]

It should be noted that this has absolutely nothing to do with magic item creation. If you make a 3500 gp necklace and then throw 10,000 gp of magic enhancements on it, you're going to get no discount on the 10,000 gp of magic enhancements, but you will get the 3500 gp value of the necklace in addition to the half-value of the magic enhancements if/when you sell the item.

...but that's actually a cool idea; using expensive materials to lower the cost of a magic item; if you manage to acquire expensive materials and skillfully craft them into an item, the price of whatever you made gets taken from the cost of adding magic enhancements to the item INCLUDING exp! And thus we have a reason for these things to be valuable in a D&D world where there are infinite better ways to spend your wealth, and a reason for magic items to be so blingy.

I'm gonna think on this.

[Deophaun]

That is exactly what I am looking for. How did you get this information?
He used the very basic crafting rules and made it up. Which is what you're supposed to do.

...but that's actually a cool idea; using expensive materials to lower the cost of a magic item; if you manage to acquire expensive materials and skillfully craft them into an item, the price of whatever you made gets taken from the cost of adding magic enhancements to the item INCLUDING exp! And thus we have a reason for these things to be valuable in a D&D world where there are infinite better ways to spend your wealth, and a reason for magic items to be so blingy.

I'm gonna think on this.
In Pathfinder, where there is no XP cost, here's no functional difference between crafting a 3000 gp necklace, selling it, and then using that 3000 gp to fund what you want, and just deducting the 3000 gp from the cost of the magic item. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Crake]

Based on SRD rules about cost of an item vs cost of raw materials, a necklace costs thrice the value of its weight in gold.

That's not necessarily true. There are plenty of ways to craft things that will result in waste materials, so a 3,000gp necklace doesn't need to have 200lb of gold. Fine chain could be made using expendable molds that need to be able to withstand the melting temperature of gold, made and casted hundreds, or thousands of times over, the gold might need to be constantly alchemically treated to stop it from being soft and malleable, while still being mostly pure.

"Raw materials" doesn't mean that all the raw materials will make it into the final product is my point. The necklace will probbaly only one a pound or two at most, if even, but the cost of making it might still be significantly higher than the value of the raw gold.

[Feantar]

Well, there is: you need raw materials equal to 1/3rd the value of what you are creating. If you want a necklace worth 3000 gp, you... well... you'll be making a REALLY big necklace out of 1000 gold coins. Fit for a colossal ancient dragon. :smallbiggrin:


Now I want to craft a 3000 gp copper necklace...

[Lazymancer]

That is exactly what I am looking for. How did you get this information? I heard there's something like this about cutting gems or such?

He used the very basic crafting rules and made it up. Which is what you're supposed to do.
This. If you don't know it yet, 3e (as most RPGs) didn't bother with rules on economy/politics since there is no consensus on those things among players. Not to mention, results of putting to test commonly accepted theories might be seen as controversial.

Consequently, GMs have to make those things from scratch. Specifically in this situation (labour-intensive work), it makes sense to split crafting into several steps, rather than to rely on some expendable raw materials.

Though, to be completely honest, I'd say 3,000 gp mundane necklace is clearly a unique piece of art (its too expensive; regular jewelry rarely goes above ~300 gp) and that would require a lot of handwaving (for example, "to craft it, you need to have a special feat Great Artisan").

[Deophaun]

Though, to be completely honest, I'd say 3,000 gp mundane necklace is clearly a unique piece of art (its too expensive; regular jewelry rarely goes above ~300 gp) and that would require a lot of handwaving (for example, "to craft it, you need to have a special feat Great Artisan").
You don't require someone to take a feat for something that has absolutely zero mechanical impact.

[Lazymancer]

You don't require someone to take a feat for something that has absolutely zero mechanical impact.
1) If it's NPC - I do.
2) Ability to craft goods that would sell for ten times more money than the regular hardly has "zero mechanical impact".

[Deophaun]

2) Ability to craft goods that would sell for ten times more money than the regular hardly has "zero mechanical impact".
There is no difference between crafting 10 gp, then crafting the resulting 30 gp trade good, then crafting the 90 gp trade good, and selling the result for 270gp, versus crafting 10 gp, selling the 30 gp trade good and using that to purchase 30 gp in raw materials to craft for a 90 gp trade good which you sell and then buy raw materals to craft a 270 gp trade good. In the end, you have the exact same profit, with the exact same expenditure of time. That is the very definition of zero mechanical impact.

[Lazymancer]

That's not what I'm talking about. The feat-based crafting is an alternative to making 3,000 gp necklace (edit: via process that divides crafting into several steps).

I.e. you do the regular amount of work that is necessary to craft 150 gp golden necklance (from 50 gp of raw materials), but the result is a masterpiece: a necklace that is worth 3,000 gp.

[KillianHawkeye]

That's not what I'm talking about. The feat-based crafting is an alternative to making 3,000 gp necklace (edit: via process that divides crafting into several steps).

I.e. you do the regular amount of work that is necessary to craft 150 gp golden necklance (from 50 gp of raw materials), but the result is a masterpiece: a necklace that is worth 3,000 gp.

I would honestly just use the existing rules for crafting a masterwork item and say that it dramatically increases the market value when used for an art piece (jewelry, sculptures, paintings, et cetera) rather than making up an NPC-only feat that does nothing but explain how they make valuable goods.

[Deophaun]

That's not what I'm talking about. The feat-based crafting is an alternative to making 3,000 gp necklace (edit: via process that divides crafting into several steps).

I.e. you do the regular amount of work that is necessary to craft 150 gp golden necklance (from 50 gp of raw materials), but the result is a masterpiece: a necklace that is worth 3,000 gp.
This is important information that was not in your original post.

But what you're really just doing is multiplying the progress by 20, and Pathfinder already does that through the Unchained rules (well, 14x, but close enough). So, with this feat, you'd get 280x.

[RedMage125]

1) If it's NPC - I do.
2) Ability to craft goods that would sell for ten times more money than the regular hardly has "zero mechanical impact".

This about sums up some "behind the curtain" **** that I just smooth over in my games.

NPCs may have levels in Commoner, Aristocrat, and Expert, but their feat slection is rarely from the same list of feats that adventurers take.

A Dwarven Brewmaster NPC may have feats that allow him to cheaply mass-produce high-quality beer, feats that required him to be a member in good standing of Clan Deeplager (Yes, that's an actual clan in my campaign world), and only helps them make extraordinary beer. It's more than ranks in Craft(brewer) and Skill Focus: Craft, it's unique abilities that I just figure they have in place of things like Power Attack.

A farmer's feats may be spent on things that make him a better farmer. This is why he doesn't have feats that adventurers do. NPCs essentially don't use the same feat list players do.

I never really bother with it, mechanically, but it's something that I just sort of assume is in the stat blocks that I don't bother making.