Planning out a Trivantage Half-Elf Hexblade for AL...

[prototype00]

So... HEXBLADE! And what better to pair Hexblade with than Half Elf and Elven Accuracy for that sweet sweet Trivantage!

Lvl 1: Unfortunately you start off with pretty crap equipment by the rules, since you get warlock stuff, but someone on Reddit was kind enough to calculate how best to sell all that dross and buy something decent!


Your best bet in AL:

Take 2 light crossbows 25 GP. Take Orb arcane focus, sell for 10 GP. Two daggers sell for 2 GP. Leather Armor Sell for 5 GP. Scholars pack sell for 20 GP.

That's 62 GP.

Then take Guild Artisan background, Tinker's Tools, sell for 25. Plus 15.

that's a total of 102 GP.

there might be a way to eek out more, but that's the best I could find. Now you can afford scale mail. If you are taking Blade Pact, then you don't need to worry about weapons, but you can afford most of those as well and have enough money left over to buy a dungeoneers kit or something similar.


Hmm, Blade Pact only comes in at lvl 3, so that's Heavy Two Handers out so the weapon will have to be versatile instead. Longsword is certainly traditional. And you can get a shield for when you want to be more tanky (18 AC is not to be sniffed at at lvl 1)

Also start off with 17 Charisma.

Lvl 2 - Take Devil's Sight Invocation

Lvl 3 - Blade Pact! - Switch your weapon to a Greatsword or a Maul (summon it out of thin air)!

Lvl 4 - Elven Accuracy - Put the point in Charisma (18 now) and you are now on equal footing with a Variant Human who took a feat at 1st and an ASI at 4th.

Lvl 5 - Take Thirsting Blade Invocation, natch.

Lvl 8 - GWM - With darkness, Hexblade's curse and Trivantage, you can really make use of this.

Lvl 12 - Polearm Master - Switch your Pact Weapon to Glaive or Halberd (Glaive seems more in flavour) - with this you can make three attacks per round all the time. Either you crit/kill something and you get to activate GWM's extra bonus action attack, or you don't and you get to activate Polearm Master's bonus action attack. In any event, all these attacks have +10 to damage due to GWM.

Hmm, did I miss anything?

prototype00

[Easy_Lee]

Looks right to me.

[Spiritchaser]

Taking PAM at 12 means res con waits to 16... you might find you need res con more. That said, by then you’ll know.

Edit: and to be clear, I’m not sure what I’ll do either, but it looks like I might get to play one so we’ll see.

[Soleil]

That's pretty much what I had in mind for mine, except I'm considering grabbing GWM at level 4 because I'm not sure it's worth using a 2h weapon without it. As for the glaive flavor, I'll just refluff mine as a nagamaki as it feels more like a sword. :smallbiggrin:

[prototype00]

That's pretty much what I had in mind for mine, except I'm considering grabbing GWM at level 4 because I'm not sure it's worth using a 2h weapon without it. As for the glaive flavor, I'll just refluff mine as a nagamaki as it feels more like a sword. :smallbiggrin:

So you’ll give up the +1 to hit and damage and just go for regular Advantage with darkness for the +10 to damage? Seems deece.

Without PAM though, I take it you are going to use a Greatsword to start with?

[Soleil]

So you’ll give up the +1 to hit and damage and just go for regular Advantage with darkness for the +10 to damage? Seems deece.

Without PAM though, I take it you are going to use a Greatsword to start with?

Yeah, I just don't think it's worth going melee with a weapon and shield if eb spam outdamages it. At least taking GWM at level 4 plus darkness I get to outdamage eb and I get an extra attack on a crit. So I'm planning on starting at lvl 1 with a weapon and shield, switch to a 2h weapon at lvl 4 and grab elven acc at 8.

[prototype00]

Taking PAM at 12 means res con waits to 16... you might find you need res con more. That said, by then you’ll know.

Edit: and to be clear, I’m not sure what I’ll do either, but it looks like I might get to play one so we’ll see.

From my jiggering around with the Half Elf starting stats, you can end up with this:

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 17

To start out with. Res Con is nice... but it’s not as if you start out a weenie.

[Spiritchaser]

No, not a weenie, and with darkness you’ll be tough to hit...

But concentration dependent melee without a “ solid enough”
Con save is miserable. The caveat is of course that solid enough is negotiable

[agnos]

It’s hard to fit in due to stat requirements, but Gloomstalker is ridiculously broken. 3 levels for “extra extra attack” is insane. You also get free invisibility in non-magical darkness. I still think the best Hexblade builds will far and away be mutt builds.

Sure, Lifedrinker is nice, but at best it’s +18 DPR; maybe up to +30 DPR with haste and a consistent OA. Realistically, though it’s at best 3.5 attacks with a 70% odds to hit equaling a top end of 14.7. Whereas an extra attack is 13.5-24 DPR not counting crits or other situational modifiers (like hex). At the 70% hit chance that’s 13.125 DPR without any other mods. Considering gloomstalker only increases in DPR if you use your bonus actions on damage buffs while Lifedrinker gets worse if you use actions for other damage buffs (except haste) instead of PAM attacks or OAs.

[prototype00]

No, not a weenie, and with darkness you’ll be tough to hit...

But concentration dependent melee without a “ solid enough”
Con save is miserable. The caveat is of course that solid enough is negotiable

Ah, yes. That is a good reason. But Res Con and not Warcaster?

[Spiritchaser]

Ah, yes. That is a good reason. But Res Con and not Warcaster?

Fair point, for early adopters, much of your career war caster is mathematically better... Plus it can add GFB or BB damage to those reaction attacks... BB plus PAM + warcaster is a reasonable stand in for sentinel. EDIT: Though as noted by agnos: Not in an AL legal game

Res con’s extra point of con means you don’t have to have to dump strength. The relevance of this varies of course, and it’s not the main reason I’d go res con.

By mid level, and by this I mean level 13 where your proficiency hits +5, res con is better for concentration saves. That’s just one level above where we have room for this feat.

If that’s not enough, maybe consider high level min max (if you think you are going to get there). For this, res con is much better defensively. Partly from the extra proficiency, but mostly because of the advantage that you get from foresight.

Yes I know, basing any part of a build decision on a level 17 power is a suspect strategy, especially for a rather death prone character...

But I can’t help feeling that the lions share of warcaster will be wasted once foresight comes on line.

Don’t get me wrong, I think warcaster makes perfect sense for this character, it’s really a tough choice...

But that just means both are strong and valid.

[agnos]

It should be noted that while Warcaster is slightly better mechanically for Concentration saves, the Cantrip OA is irrelevant because of AL +1 rules. So the extra HPs and Con Save is generally going to be far better for Xanathar’s AL characters since the % gain of Warcaster is very slight.

[Spiritchaser]

It should be noted that while Warcaster is slightly better mechanically for Concentration saves, the Cantrip OA is irrelevant because of AL +1 rules. So the extra HPs and Con Save is generally going to be far better for Xanathar’s AL characters since the % gain of Warcaster is very slight.

The cantrip limitation will certainly apply to some (though not to me)

But again, assuming that one takes warcaster or res con at 12, warcaster is only going to be better for one level. After proficiency hits +5, res con will be slightly better, and very very much better once you hit foresight, if you hit foresight.

[Khrysaes]

My question would be: Is the elven accuracy feat AL legal?

[prototype00]

My question would be: Is the elven accuracy feat AL legal?

It’s in Xanathar’s Guide to Everything so why wouldn’t it be?

[prototype00]

I was just thinking about progression, level 1 and 2 is it better to just be a more tanky Eldritch Blast Slinger than to wade in to combat? I suppose if your party needs a tank, you can just Sword and Board it...

If you are two handing your long sword at most you are doing 1d10 Damage.

[Zene]

My question would be: Is the elven accuracy feat AL legal?

It sure is! For now at least. They could always decide to ban it in the future, but I doubt it—the cat’s already out of the bag.

[Zene]

It sure is! For now at least. They could always decide to ban it in the future, but I doubt it—the cat’s already out of the bag.

(So is multiclassing, and as a result so is a 1-level hexblade dip for some pretty crazy half-elf dpr shenanigans when combo’d with other classes and elven accuracy —AL is about to become a very different game...)

[agnos]

The cantrip limitation will certainly apply to some (though not to me)

But again, assuming that one takes warcaster or res con at 12, warcaster is only going to be better for one level. After proficiency hits +5, res con will be slightly better, and very very much better once you hit foresight, if you hit foresight.
Not technically true. Which is better depends on two things: your flat Con Save (Con mod and any Save modifiers like RoP/CoP) and the expected Save DC. Resilient allows you to make tough saves that you normally wouldn’t or couldn’t. War Caster helps you hit “normal” concentration Save DCs in the 10-14 range more consistently. The higher your flat Con Save, the better War Caster is for keeping Concentration. The higher the expected Save DC (~19+) the better Resilient gets. Personally, I’ve less concerned about the easy com saves as Resilient on a Caster should put you around +11 or so; I’ve far more concerned about the 20+ DCs where you likely need to keep up the spell and use your actions to get away.

The reason why imo you should almost always take Resilient instead of War Caster at 12 is the fact that you get 12+ hp from it and are more likely to make non-Concentration Con saves (like Cone of Cold, Stuns, or White Dragon Breath).

[Spiritchaser]

Not technically true. Which is better depends on two things: your flat Con Save (Con mod and any Save modifiers like RoP/CoP) and the expected Save DC. Resilient allows you to make tough saves that you normally wouldn’t or couldn’t. War Caster helps you hit “normal” concentration Save DCs in the 10-14 range more consistently. The higher your flat Con Save, the better War Caster is for keeping Concentration. The higher the expected Save DC (~19+) the better Resilient gets. Personally, I’ve less concerned about the easy com saves as Resilient on a Caster should put you around +11 or so; I’ve far more concerned about the 20+ DCs where you likely need to keep up the spell and use your actions to get away.

The reason why imo you should almost always take Resilient instead of War Caster at 12 is the fact that you get 12+ hp from it and are more likely to make non-Concentration Con saves (like Cone of Cold, Stuns, or White Dragon Breath).

EDIT: Warcaster doesn’t give you more than a static +5 bonus, and generally it is slightly less.

With this build, you do also have the choice to dump strength (I wouldn’t)and get those hit points anyway.

[prototype00]

It’s hard to fit in due to stat requirements, but Gloomstalker is ridiculously broken. 3 levels for “extra extra attack” is insane. You also get free invisibility in non-magical darkness. I still think the best Hexblade builds will far and away be mutt builds.

Sure, Lifedrinker is nice, but at best it’s +18 DPR; maybe up to +30 DPR with haste and a consistent OA. Realistically, though it’s at best 3.5 attacks with a 70% odds to hit equaling a top end of 14.7. Whereas an extra attack is 13.5-24 DPR not counting crits or other situational modifiers (like hex). At the 70% hit chance that’s 13.125 DPR without any other mods. Considering gloomstalker only increases in DPR if you use your bonus actions on damage buffs while Lifedrinker gets worse if you use actions for other damage buffs (except haste) instead of PAM attacks or OAs.

As you say, the stat requirements are harsh (Wisdom does nothing for you) and Warlock is a "full caster", so I'm reluctant to give up progression.

prototype00

[Lombra]

That's a lot of damage, pick fighter or sorcerer as your first level and you are proficient in CON saves.

Low strenght characters get shut down easily though.

I think that PAM is redundant. You crit on 19s, roll three dies, the bonus action attack is gonna happen often.

[prototype00]

That's a lot of damage, pick fighter or sorcerer as your first level and you are proficient in CON saves.

Low strenght characters get shut down easily though.

From grappling?

[prototype00]

That's a lot of damage, pick fighter or sorcerer as your first level and you are proficient in CON saves.

Low strenght characters get shut down easily though.

I think that PAM is redundant. You crit on 19s, roll three dies, the bonus action attack is gonna happen often.

The 19 only happens 1/short rest until later levels tho’...

[Lombra]

From grappling?

No, grappling contests can use acrobatics, but strength saves and envirormental hazards are common in the frontline, in my experience at least.

[Soleil]

The 19 only happens 1/short rest until later levels tho’...

No, at lvl 14 you're still limited to 1 per rest, but after killing the target you can reapply the curse to an enemy within 30ft.

Edit: Actually, after rereading the feature, I'm not sure if that's the case. It just says that when you kill a cursed creature you can transfer to another within 30ft of you, but there is no time constraint, so I guess you can keep reapplying in future encounters.

[prototype00]

No, at lvl 14 you're still limited to 1 per rest, but after killing the target you can reapply the curse to an enemy within 30ft.

Ah right, that’s even more limited! The PAM is just there to really guarantee the third attack, you know.

[Spiritchaser]

No, grappling contests can use acrobatics, but strength saves and envirormental hazards are common in the frontline, in my experience at least.


I agree with the point, but it is worth noting that a warlock does have a fair number of tools to deal with this, including a freedom of movement invocation I haven’t seen yet that might justify the risk of low strength. Probably not... but maybe.

[Klorox]

I like it!

I haven’t seen the book yet, but this may be the gish we’ve been looking for!

[prototype00]

I like it!

I haven’t seen the book yet, but this may be the gish we’ve been looking for!

It combines several of the prime gishing abilities, really.

1. Decent Defensiveness - you don't have to multiclass for heavier armor
2. Constant Source of tri-vantage - as long as you take short rests frequently and use darkness/devil's sight
3. SADness - No spells required either
4. Improved Crit Range - On one enemy every short rest, and you can spread it around once you are high level enough.

There are other classes that benefit from Elven Accuracy, but none with so much in one place without having to multiclass.

Speaking of defensiveness, for my build (i.e. Elven Accuracy at 4th level), I wonder if it might not be worth it continuing on with sword and board until you get to lvl 8 (and GWM). Damage wise, you only trail for a bit and you get to play party tank for just a bit longer.

I suppose you can change it up as the game goes a long. Greatsword for damage, sword and board for frontline.

prototype00

[alchahest]

just to note: even if you are playing AL with the +1 rule, cantrips scale really well for opportunity attacks anyways, so you can hit em with eldritch blast or toll the dead or whatever. (if warcaster is something you're on the fence about)

[Spiritchaser]

Speaking of defensiveness, for my build (i.e. Elven Accuracy at 4th level), I wonder if it might not be worth it continuing on with sword and board until you get to lvl 8 (and GWM). Damage wise, you only trail for a bit and you get to play party tank for just a bit longer.


prototype00

I'd actually suggest thinking about polearm or possibly even whip and board (hypothetical only, I haven't seen that one) after 3, at least much of the time.

You want reach.

You've got darkness up, and you don't want to mess with your party. If you're in a position to attack from outside your opponent's range, then disengage without "disengaging" their opportunity attacks will often be unable to reach you. This can free you up to use your darkness/devil's sight gimmick a little more than you would otherwise be able to, potentially focussing more on using darkness as a moveable barrier that helps your party instead of thwarting it.

Sometimes your foes will have reach.

Sometimes you will be unable to engage them without causing issues for your party.

Sometimes you won't be flanked, or surrounded or have other opponents to engage.

It won't be often that all three happen. When it does, back to EB spam.

[Zene]

I'd actually suggest thinking about polearm or possibly even whip and board (hypothetical only, I haven't seen that one) after 3, at least much of the time.

You want reach.

You've got darkness up, and you don't want to mess with your party. If you're in a position to attack from outside your opponent's range, then disengage without "disengaging" their opportunity attacks will often be unable to reach you. This can free you up to use your darkness/devil's sight gimmick a little more than you would otherwise be able to, potentially focussing more on using darkness as a moveable barrier that helps your party instead of thwarting it.

Sometimes your foes will have reach.

Sometimes you will be unable to engage them without causing issues for your party.

Sometimes you won't be flanked, or surrounded or have other opponents to engage.

It won't be often that all three happen. When it does, back to EB spam.

If you’ve got Darkness up, unless your opponent has Devil’s Sight, Blindsight or similar; you don’t need to Disengage. You need to see an opponent to get an oppty attack on them.

[Klorox]

It combines several of the prime gishing abilities, really.

1. Decent Defensiveness - you don't have to multiclass for heavier armor
2. Constant Source of tri-vantage - as long as you take short rests frequently and use darkness/devil's sight
3. SADness - No spells required either
4. Improved Crit Range - On one enemy every short rest, and you can spread it around once you are high level enough.

There are other classes that benefit from Elven Accuracy, but none with so much in one place without having to multiclass.

Speaking of defensiveness, for my build (i.e. Elven Accuracy at 4th level), I wonder if it might not be worth it continuing on with sword and board until you get to lvl 8 (and GWM). Damage wise, you only trail for a bit and you get to play party tank for just a bit longer.

I suppose you can change it up as the game goes a long. Greatsword for damage, sword and board for frontline.

prototype00

OMG I can't wait for this book now. Thank you!

[prototype00]

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, it isn’t a powerhouse out of the gate, at least not until you get GWM, really (lvl 8).

Before that it’s just a very, very, very convenient way to play Gish-Warlock.

[Klorox]

I haven’t received my book yet, but I looked at the UA.

If the hexblade is still restricted to one handed weapons, how are we using heavy weapons and still using CHA to hit and damage?

[prototype00]

I haven’t received my book yet, but I looked at the UA.

If the hexblade is still restricted to one handed weapons, how are we using heavy weapons and still using CHA to hit and damage?

Pact of the blade allows you to use any weapon with Hexblade.

[Chugger]

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, it isn’t a powerhouse out of the gate, at least not until you get GWM, really (lvl 8).

Before that it’s just a very, very, very convenient way to play Gish-Warlock.

Right, that's why I'm wondering if I'd really want the tri-ad on a gish-lock.

On an elf arcane tricster, heck yes. I can hide or use find fam for advantage - I'm gonna land that sneak attack damage almost all the time with tri-ad - and have 18 dex at lvl 4!

But coming out the gate with a feat as a var hu, I'm going to have more fun earlier, except that stats are gonna suffer some: Str 8 Int 8 Wis 10 Con 16 Dex 14 Ch 16 - I don't like having str that low - except in AL how often is that really gonna matter? When fighting shadows and certain traps and door-opening.

But I could go Fi 1 and then pop over to hexblade - suffer through lvl 5 still doing only one attack (or two if I take PaM) - but rock it at lvl 6 - and have better stats and not need to get resil con. Also have a FS and at some point later on get Fi lvl 2 for surge.*

I guess I'm having a hard time with this, because I could see going straight hexblade (even with 8 in str and int) as a var hu and starting with PAM or GWM. GWM is no fun at lower levels, unless fighting zombies or other low ac things - too much swish. PaM on the other hand - especially if fighting in darkness to get adv at lvl 3 on - lets you add a significant hit as a b.a. I know I would not want PAM if I went sorcadin - you can quicken and do so much w/ that. But as a hexblade, I'm not sure what I'd be using my b.a. for except to curse, hex or move hex (later move curse). I don't see any invo's that use b.a. - and no spells that I'd use.

Again, I feel my head's gonna explode - so many tempting choices! So far once I start thinking "okay maybe this one" - yet another one waves at me and says no no no, pick me, pick me! :smallbiggrin:

(* edit, just hit me that going over to fighter 1 for a dip to get hvy armor is not going to be so kind to me - need 13 or rly 15 armor. So unless I have a gaunt of ogre p. to give my character (AL), I'm SoL. Unless I wanna be dwarf or ... maybe I could trade for those boots that let you have full movement even if enc or in hvy armor w/ no str (striding and jumping?). Without that I can't lower the dex by starting w/ a fi 1 dip - at least w/out the armor penalty or headache of finding an offsetting magic item - and ... a 14 dex has many advantages, anyway.)

[Spiritchaser]

If you’ve got Darkness up, unless your opponent has Devil’s Sight, Blindsight or similar; you don’t need to Disengage. You need to see an opponent to get an oppty attack on them.

I actually wasn’t aware of that caveat, thanks

[The Shadowdove]

What do you consider to be ideal stat arrays?

Point buy obviously.

How many dump stats do the general populace tend to deem acceptable?

I usually cringe at the single 8-9 most optimized builds have. I've opted to drop a 12 so that I could have two 10's before, just to avoid having two -1 modifiers.

[prototype00]

What do you consider to be ideal stat arrays?

Point buy obviously.

How many dump stats do the general populace tend to deem acceptable?

I usually cringe at the single 8-9 most optimized builds have. I've opted to drop a 12 so that I could have two 10's before, just to avoid having two -1 modifiers.

Ideal?

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 17

With the points going into Dex and Con.

Balanced you can probably have 14 Con and shore up Str and Int:

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 17

[Neopergoss]

Why do you need devil's sight if you already have darkvision?

[prototype00]

Why do you need devil's sight if you already have darkvision?

The trick is Darkvision doesn't see through magical darkness, that you can generate for basically every combat. The thing is, unless the foe is a devil (that can mostly see through magical darkness) or something with blindsight/truesight, they are effectively blind while fighting you, and you see fine. This leads to Advantage on all of your attacks, and Disadvantage on all of theirs (if they can even predict which square you are in)

prototype00

[Klorox]

@prototype00, I think the answer is obvious, but please define “tri-vantage” so I’m not making a dope of myself. LOL. 🙃

[prototype00]

@prototype00, I think the answer is obvious, but please define “tri-vantage” so I’m not making a dope of myself. LOL. 🙃

Elven Accuracy so you roll 3 dice for Advantage?

[krunchyfrogg]

It combines several of the prime gishing abilities, really.

1. Decent Defensiveness - you don't have to multiclass for heavier armor
2. Constant Source of tri-vantage - as long as you take short rests frequently and use darkness/devil's sight
3. SADness - No spells required either
4. Improved Crit Range - On one enemy every short rest, and you can spread it around once you are high level enough.

There are other classes that benefit from Elven Accuracy, but none with so much in one place without having to multiclass.

Speaking of defensiveness, for my build (i.e. Elven Accuracy at 4th level), I wonder if it might not be worth it continuing on with sword and board until you get to lvl 8 (and GWM). Damage wise, you only trail for a bit and you get to play party tank for just a bit longer.

I suppose you can change it up as the game goes a long. Greatsword for damage, sword and board for frontline.

prototype00

Let me start off with “I’m so glad I found this thread as I’m about to make my warlock with the hexblade patron who will choose pact of the blade.” You’ve sold me on not needing polearm mastery since the increased critical range and great weapon master feat work so well together.

I just need a little help with initial character creation and planning out the first couple of levels. The way I see it, variant human is the best bet if you don’t think the campaign will go very far, and half elf is better in the long run with better ability scores and the elven advantage feat. This being said, I am not planning on a really high level and I’m probably better off with going human for the best effectiveness.

Variant human level 1 build:

8/14/14/10/12/16, great weapon fighting master feat. This feat is basically wasted until level 3 since you want to use weapons one handed so you can use charisma to hit and damage.

Level 3: I can switch to a greatsword and get a lot of the benefits now.

Level 4: 18 charisma

Level 8: 20 charisma

Am I missing anything?

[prototype00]

Let me start off with “I’m so glad I found this thread as I’m about to make my warlock with the hexblade patron who will choose pact of the blade.” You’ve sold me on not needing polearm mastery since the increased critical range and great weapon master feat work so well together.

I just need a little help with initial character creation and planning out the first couple of levels. The way I see it, variant human is the best bet if you don’t think the campaign will go very far, and half elf is better in the long run with better ability scores and the elven advantage feat. This being said, I am not planning on a really high level and I’m probably better off with going human for the best effectiveness.

Variant human level 1 build:

8/14/14/10/12/16, great weapon fighting master feat. This feat is basically wasted until level 3 since you want to use weapons one handed so you can use charisma to hit and damage.

Level 3: I can switch to a greatsword and get a lot of the benefits now.

Level 4: 18 charisma

Level 8: 20 charisma

Am I missing anything?

The strategy changes, with vHuman its more like (or I played one this way at any rate):

Lvl 1-2: PAM - Quarterstaff and Shield + Hex
Lvl 3: PAM - Pact Blade Glaive and Darkness or Quarterstaff and Shield + Hex (I happened to play in an Epic event for AL, so I wanted all the survivability I could get, so I went glaive and darkness)
Lvl 4: PAM + GWM + Darkness = Massive damage and Massive survivability.
Lvl 8: Probably Cha ASI or Sentinel
Lvl 12: Cha ASI/Sentinel

Thats a good breakdown for how I planned out my first couple of levels. Your stat array is fine (I personally went 16 con for more HP and concentration saves, but wisdom is not bad, either).

GWM is a good feat but not usable until lvl 3, and you don't have the accuracy for it out of the gate. AL has the free re-spec rule for lvls 1-4, I don't know if your DM allows the same?

prototype00