Favorite Variant Rule

[Westhart]

Whether it was something as simple as ax HP per HD to armor as DR we all have used (or seen ones we'd like to) variant rules that we liked. So now I ask, what was your favorite, or your top 3?

[Boggartbae]

Alternate class features are all pretty cool. I’m not sure if it counts as a variant, but it did appear in unearthed arcana.

No critical confirmation rolls is always fun.

I’ve never tried it, but I have a feeling that gestalt is going to be popular.

[Westhart]

Alternate class features are all pretty cool. I’m not sure if it counts as a variant, but it did appear in unearthed arcana.

No critical confirmation rolls is always fun.

People still play with those? Well, I better go add something to the variants for my game rules I'm starting up :smalleek:


I’ve never tried it, but I have a feeling that gestalt is going to be popular.

I like gestalt honestly, and if you'd like to try it out I'm recruiting :smallwink: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?541567-Checking-Interest-DND-3-x-(-ish)-Civilization-Game)

[Luccan]

As predicted: gestalt. It's a lot of fun and is good for smaller parties that may need the help covering roles.

I really like the idea of the generic classes, but I've never gotten to play in a game with them. (I even took a stab at developing a couple myself, recently, which reminds me I need to update them.)

[Westhart]

As predicted: gestalt. It's a lot of fun and is good for smaller parties that may need the help covering roles.

Yes, that's one of mine as well.


I really like the idea of the generic classes, but I've never gotten to play in a game with them. (I even took a stab at developing a couple myself, recently, which reminds me I need to update them.)

Hmm, I think a lot of that is the spellcaster class honestly.

[Luccan]

Yes, that's one of mine as well.


Hmm, I think a lot of that is the spellcaster class honestly.

Spellcaster certainly has issues, though I think if I ever ran a generic class game, I'd reduce them to Bard spell progression. Still powerful at higher levels with the whole any spell thing, but more manageable for longer.

[Westhart]

Spellcaster certainly has issues, though I think if I ever ran a generic class game, I'd reduce them to Bard spell progression. Still powerful at higher levels with the whole any spell thing, but more manageable for longer.

That would bring them more in line for sure.

[Forrestfire]

Ignoring multiclassing penalties is basically necessary for the health of the game, so I think it's probably my favorite. Beyond that, flaws (major QoL boost), and prestige classes (a variant/DM-optional thing, even if people don't use it like that).

[Westhart]

Ignoring multiclassing penalties is basically necessary for the health of the game, so I think it's probably my favorite. Beyond that, flaws (major QoL boost), and prestige classes (a variant/DM-optional thing, even if people don't use it like that).

Yeah, multiclass penalties are... stupid, a hang on from earlier editions I believe. Flaws are iffy, I think characters should honestly get more feats, and I've honestly never played a game where PrC's where not allowed.

[Luccan]

Ignoring multiclassing penalties is basically necessary for the health of the game, so I think it's probably my favorite. Beyond that, flaws (major QoL boost), and prestige classes (a variant/DM-optional thing, even if people don't use it like that).

Always wondered if multiclassing penalties were supposed to make Half-Elves more viable. Oh, I really like the environmental subraces, too.

[the_david]

I'd like to try side initiative from 5e D&D. (Somewhere in the DMG.)

You know how no plan survives contact with the enemy? Well, turn based combat is the enemy. By the time your turn has come around your allies block your shot/charge/fireball. With side initiative the whole party acts on the same turn in a way that allows them to coordinate their attacks in a tactical manner. Ofcourse, the opponents do the same.

In 3.x I found that my character really needed Improved Initiative just to act before the other players would rush in. This would eliminate the need for that. It would also make combat go a little bit quicker as well as make it more deadly. (The casters use their buffs when the barbarian charges and the ranger draws an arrow.)

[Westhart]

I'd like to try side initiative from 5e D&D. (Somewhere in the DMG.)

You know how no plan survives contact with the enemy? Well, turn based combat is the enemy. By the time your turn has come around your allies block your shot/charge/fireball. With side initiative the whole party acts on the same turn in a way that allows them to coordinate their attacks in a tactical manner. Ofcourse, the opponents do the same.

In 3.x I found that my character really needed Improved Initiative just to act before the other players would rush in. This would eliminate the need for that. It would also make combat go a little bit quicker as well as make it more deadly. (The casters use their buffs when the barbarian charges and the ranger draws an arrow.)

Huh, that sounds cool (I've looked through the 5e PHB a little). I'll have to check it out.

[the_david]

Is there a good alternative for alignment?

[Westhart]

Is there a good alternative for alignment?

Yeah, throwing it out :smalltongue:
Seriously: Not that I've seen really.

[the_david]

Honestly, I like the basic D&D version more. Anyone who has hostile intentions directed at you is considered evil for the purpose of detect evil, protection from evil, etc.

Ofcourse that does mean that protection from evil works against anything now...

[Luccan]

You could use the Allegiances system from D20 Modern. You can still have allegiances to the D&D alignments in that system, but you don't have to pick any of them either. They just provide a boost to certain skills in the right circumstances. And anything with an allegiance to an alignment could still be blocked by the right spells.

[heavyfuel]

Bell Curve Rolls (aka, 3d6 instead of 1d20) work great for more serious games where you don't want luck to be such an influencing factor.

Basically it makes easy things easier and hard things harder. It's a lot harder to get screwed over because you rolled a 5, but needing a 15 means you're almost certain to fail. Makes static number feats, such as Iron Will, actually pretty good as they can boost your success rate by up to 25%

It takes some work to use with attack rolls due to the nature of crit ranges (and when I played, we still used 1d20 for attack rolls), but with some math you can also work it out.



Ignoring multiclassing penalties

That's more of a house-rule than a variant rule, no?

[Boggartbae]

Speaking of house rules and alignment, my group got rid of codes of conduct for classes like blackguard and paladin. Honestly, a class feature that encourages PvP the moment you sit down to play is BS.

[Kobold Esq]

I've borrowed the Eberron approach to gods (everyone believes they exist, but no one ever has met one) and cleric alignment (you can be any alignment, which means sometimes you have evil inquisitors working for an otherwise LG church).

[Westhart]

Speaking of house rules and alignment, my group got rid of codes of conduct for classes like blackguard and paladin. Honestly, a class feature that encourages PvP the moment you sit down to play is BS.


I've borrowed the Eberron approach to gods (everyone believes they exist, but no one ever has met one) and cleric alignment (you can be any alignment, which means sometimes you have evil inquisitors working for an otherwise LG church).

I use the first, and have used the second, both are interesting. Never played an Eberon campaign though :smallbiggrin:

[The Viscount]

Ignoring multiclass penalties is a big one. It encourages playing other races and more diverse classes.

Ignoring death from massive damage is a houserule so common it's easy to forget that death from massive damage is actually a rule in the core system.

Point Buy is one of the best variant rules, because it allows you to play the classes you want instead of praying you roll well enough for MAD classes.

[heavyfuel]

Ignoring death from massive damage is a houserule so common it's easy to forget that death from massive damage is actually a rule in the core system.

Anecdotal evidence, I know, but never in 13+ years of 3.x have I played at table that didn't use this rule

[Westhart]

Anecdotal evidence, I know, but never in 13+ years of 3.x have I played at table that didn't use this rule

Really? :smallconfused:
Were they high level games or optimized games?

[Goaty14]

Is there a good alternative for alignment?

Somewhere when reading UA stuff for taint, it mentioned merging Good-Evil into Law-Chaos.

[Westhart]

Somewhere when reading UA stuff for taint, it mentioned merging Good-Evil into Law-Chaos.

Are you sure that wasn't them talking about centering everything on the law chaos axis instead of the normal good evil?

[Telonius]

Officially-published: Shapeshift Druid from PHB2.

Unofficial: ignoring multiclass XP penalties.

[Yogibear41]

Variant Rule I love the most: LA Buy-Off


Variant Rule I hate the Most: Insta kills if you roll enough nat 20s in a row.


Our group uses both of them.

[Westhart]

Officially-published: Shapeshift Druid from PHB2.

I've heard good things about that one, but haven't used (or seen) it in play before.

[Westhart]

Variant Rule I love the most: LA Buy-Off


Variant Rule I hate the Most: Insta kills if you roll enough nat 20s in a row.


Our group uses both of them.

Best was, I was a level 1 sor... who killed a level...54 I think? :smallcool:

[Luccan]

Best was, I was a level 1 sor... who killed a level...54 I think? :smallcool:

Ya know what? Good on you. Whoever thought "So what if the 1st level PCs met a statted epic level npc?" clearly had it coming. At least they stuck to the rules

[Khedrac]

Massive Damage:

We use 2 variants for the price of one:
(Official) - We use the Massive Damage based on Size table.
(Unofficial) - Failed save is a 1 round stun not instant kill - it's a lot less lethal for the players.

Interestingly I thought that the entire Massive Damage rule was a Variant until responding to this thread, the way it is written up in the DMG makes it look that way...

[ben-zayb]

Fractional BAB would be at the top of my list, considering how I love my PrC-dipping skill monkeys (and most of them have medium BAB)

[Crake]

The variants I currently use in my campaign:

- E6
- Unearthed Arcana's Wounds/Vitality
- Unearthed Arcana's Class Defense
- Unearthed Arcana's Armor as DR
- Unearthed Arcana's Factional BAB/Saves
- Pathfinder Unchained's automatic bonus progression (no magic item version)
- Pathfinder Unchained's staggered leveling

[heavyfuel]

Really? :smallconfused:
Were they high level games or optimized games?

Yup. I quite like it though.

There have been so many games that's it impossible to generalize. Some were long games where we got to high levels, others were lv 1 one-shots. Some had monks, some had shape-shifting wizards.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Low-impact or common variants/houserules: Fractional base attack/saves, no multiclassing XP penalties, no death by massive damage.
High-impact or uncommon variants/houserules: Gestalt, reduced LAs, free LA, free RHD, armour as damage conversion.


At mid-high OP, it is easy to spend a lot of your time polymorphed, or otherwise not in your base form. That makes physical ability scores and other physical traits (size, speed, natural attacks) of your base race much less useful than I feel they should be. Basically, when I play a primordial ogre mage titan, I want to smash face as a levitating sky blue humanoid, not as a solar angel, but there is no mechanical justification for this (other than layering illusions/alter self to get your old looks back, which is a bit... roundabout).

There's basically two ways around it: go very high-OP and just fusion + astral seed the racial features you want onto the cosmetics you want, or go monstrous gestalt, granting the same racial features in a progression. I prefer the first, but that's a recipe for disaster power-wise, and the second is a good alternative.

[martixy]

I've come across quite a few esoteric variant rules in my time.

Gestalt isn't so much a variant really, as a main gameplay mode.
However practically inextricable from that is fractional BAB, so in that sense it isn't a variant, so much as a necessity. Given my abolition of XP, I also use a variant of PF's LA buyoff.

Now I'm not entirely sure if this can even count as a variant, but I love the notion of called shots.
And my game uses the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots/).

Which I further extend with my own tweaks to flesh out the system more and make it possible to create focused builds, instead of leaving it as a crudely tacked on option. (Too long to post here, but if there's interest I might post it over in the homebrew forum).

I do use a crapton of other variants, but called shots are by far my favourite.

[Westhart]

--snip--
free RHD
--snip--


I've used almost all of those, how does the free RHD work out?

[Luccan]

I've used almost all of those, how does the free RHD work out?

My guess would be RHD doesn't count against ECL? So you can have 20 levels in an actual class pre-epic, maybe?

[Westhart]

My guess would be RHD doesn't count against ECL? So you can have 20 levels in an actual class pre-epic, maybe?

Yes, they get free RHD, I was wondering how it worked in game :smalltongue:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yes, they get free RHD, I was wondering how it worked in game :smalltongue:
Haven't used it myself, sadly--I'm just a theoretical fan, if you will. In play, it should work like a super-powered race--it's practically the same as free LA. Only thing you need to take care of is save DCs based on RHD, which are usually annoying badly-scaling abilities anyway.

[Scots Dragon]

From Unearthed Arcana;

I particularly like fractional BAB and Saves
Racial paragon classes are pretty cool in concept, and not so bad in execution
Basically anything in the 'reputation' and 'honour' parts has served as an influence
Test-based prerequisites, especially for prestige classes and feats that involve specific organisations.
The concepts behind traits and flaws, at least in theory.


Others;

Basically just ignoring most instances of level adjustment
The increased feat progression from Pathfinder, and possibly also that game's system for class/cross-class skills
Ignoring multiclassing penalties (does anyone use these?)
The rule for multiclassed spellcasters where they gain a bonus spellcasting level for every two levels they have in a class that doesn't otherwise progress their spellcasting. Sort of like how it works for Tome of Battle classes

[Captain Kablam]

Throwing my hat in on this, what I like to go with for a houserule is that you can use potions as a move action.

I mean let's be honest, nothing's worse in a fight to the death when you as a fighter or barbarian use a standard action to get back some hp when the giant or bugbear you're dealing with knocks away what you just got back. The feeling is usually less "well thank god I used a potion to survive that" and more "well that sure was fun NOT fighting for a turn with my FIGHTER, boy do I love paying 300g to tread water". Granted this doesn't evaporate this issue entirely, but, if you can heal and get a smack in, it makes taking that damage easier since you're still making progress.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I like to use 80% HP per HD(The first HD is 100%).

Free LA.

Flaws, I just love them.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

E6, ignoring death by massive damage, and (in one memorable case) allowing shadowsmith's weapons to deal force damage (it's mentioned in a sidebar).

[Westhart]

Throwing my hat in on this, what I like to go with for a houserule is that you can use potions as a move action.

I mean let's be honest, nothing's worse in a fight to the death when you as a fighter or barbarian use a standard action to get back some hp when the giant or bugbear you're dealing with knocks away what you just got back. The feeling is usually less "well thank god I used a potion to survive that" and more "well that sure was fun NOT fighting for a turn with my FIGHTER, boy do I love paying 300g to tread water". Granted this doesn't evaporate this issue entirely, but, if you can heal and get a smack in, it makes taking that damage easier since you're still making progress.
Huh, most players I know don;t use potions (the whole not worth the bang for the buck thing), and I would probably make it a swift honestly.

E6, ignoring death by massive damage, and (in one memorable case) allowing shadowsmith's weapons to deal force damage (it's mentioned in a sidebar).

How does e6 really work? sounds like it cuts off a lot of ideas... I mean anything with RHD/LA screws you over pretty bad...

[Psyren]

Speaking personally - ACFs and Archetypes in 3.5 and PF respectively. So much so that I don't truly consider them to be "variants" at all, but simply additional RAW.

As far as true variants, I'm a big fan of the ones that limit spellcasting - like Limited Magic, Esoteric Components, Simplified Spellcasting, and Wild Magic/Spellblights - combined in various ways and tweaked such that magic is still powerful but a little less absolute/reliable.


Is there a good alternative for alignment?


Yeah, throwing it out :smalltongue:
Seriously: Not that I've seen really.

Pathfinder Unchained has some variant alignment rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/gameplay/alignment.html) (and guidance on removing it (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/gameplay/removingAlignment.html) without damaging the parts of the game that are tangled up with it) that you both might be interested in.

[Captain Kablam]

Huh, most players I know don;t use potions (the whole not worth the bang for the buck thing), and I would probably make it a swift honestly.

What are you guys nuts? Fantasy worlds are filled with vampires, dragons, and things that want you rip your soul in half to wear as a cape, and your healer isn't going to always be there. Also, I dunno, making it a swift does make it a bigger bang for your buck, but for some reason it doesn't sit well with me.

Another I go for is infinite ammo. Basically if you got say 30 arrows or 5-10 daggers or javelins, it's just assumed you always have those, removing the tedium of keeping track of that stuff. The exception to that is of course special ammo like adamantine and silver.

And usually I tend to nix the rules for rummaging. You packed your bag, you know where your stuff is. Though that rule comes back when you rummage through someone else's things.

[Westhart]

What are you guys nuts? Fantasy worlds are filled with vampires, dragons, and things that want you rip your soul in half to wear as a cape, and your healer isn't going to always be there. Also, I dunno, making it a swift does make it a bigger bang for your buck, but for some reason it doesn't sit well with me.

There are quite a few items that are much better, a belt of healing (I think that's the name) for one.

[Captain Kablam]

There are quite a few items that are much better, a belt of healing (I think that's the name) for one.

Okay well now I know Healing Belts exist and... they seem like so much hand holding. Although on the positive end it does put less pressure on having to pigeon hole someone into the "healer" role. So good with bad I suppose.

[Westhart]

Okay well now I know Healing Belts exist and... they seem like so much hand holding. Although on the positive end it does put less pressure on having to pigeon hole someone into the "healer" role. So good with bad I suppose.

Well, you can still heal without being the stereotypical "heal bitchbot" :smallbiggrin:

[Captain Kablam]

On the subject of healing, I'm not sure if this is a variant but I tend to use the Heal skill almost as a knowledge unto itself, allowing the players to pick up clues by investigating bodies to see how they died, or to tell if somone's illness or affliction from a disease is natural or mystical, and possible treatements. Similar vein I pretty much let anyone clever enough to pick up Craft Locksmithing to use that instead of Open Lock.

[Blue Jay]

On the subject of healing, I'm not sure if this is a variant but I tend to use the Heal skill almost as a knowledge unto itself, allowing the players to pick up clues by investigating bodies to see how they died, or to tell if somone's illness or affliction from a disease is natural or mystical, and possible treatements. Similar vein I pretty much let anyone clever enough to pick up Craft Locksmithing to use that instead of Open Lock.

I actually really enjoy playing the healer, and I love making more use of the Heal skill. Complete Adventurer has rules about using the Heal skill for autopsies, but I don't think there are any actual rules or set DC's for using it to make medical diagnoses. Most of the games I've played in have allowed Heal-as-diagnosis, and I usually allow it when I DM (though I don't recall it having ever come up, except when I bring it up myself).

[Westhart]

I actually really enjoy playing the healer, and I love making more use of the Heal skill. Complete Adventurer has rules about using the Heal skill for autopsies, but I don't think there are any actual rules or set DC's for using it to make medical diagnoses. Most of the games I've played in have allowed Heal-as-diagnosis, and I usually allow it when I DM (though I don't recall it having ever come up, except when I bring it up myself).

I found a reworked healer, but the one in the book sucks... It isn't even a spontaneous caster :smallannoyed:

[Luccan]

How does e6 really work? sounds like it cuts off a lot of ideas... I mean anything with RHD/LA screws you over pretty bad...

To be fair, a lot of game don't have PCs with RHD. If you look up the E6 rules, there are suggestions on how to deal with LA (though notably only up to +4 and in most cases, that high won't be worth it.) Since the point of E6 is to keep everyone around the power level of 6th level character... Yeah I'd say it cuts off a lot of ideas, but that's kind of the point. It keeps casters and martials within a fair distance of each other.

[Westhart]

To be fair, a lot of game don't have PCs with RHD. If you look up the E6 rules, there are suggestions on how to deal with LA (though notably only up to +4 and in most cases, that high won't be worth it.) Since the point of E6 is to keep everyone around the power level of 6th level character... Yeah I'd say it cuts off a lot of ideas, but that's kind of the point. It keeps casters and martials within a fair distance of each other.

Eh, fair enough sounds like it'd be fun to fix it with gestalt :smallbiggrin:

[Blue Jay]

I found a reworked healer, but the one in the book sucks... It isn't even a spontaneous caster :smallannoyed:

Well, I wasn't necessarily talking about the class: just about the party role.

But, I usually do try to get the spontaneous-casting thing approved for the healer class.

In my homebrew, the healer also gets to select domains from a limited list, and her "cleanse" abilities all draw from a single pool of 3 + Cha modifier / day uses (which can also be used to fuel Healing Devotion in place of Turn Undead uses).

[TalonOfAnathrax]

How does e6 really work? sounds like it cuts off a lot of ideas... I mean anything with RHD/LA screws you over pretty bad...

E6 works well for my usual group. You just have to announce before character generation that you're playing E6, and tell people not to imagine their characters as immortal God-wizards but instead as Gandalf or King Arthur.
Some players hate the idea, but many others love it!

The RHD/LA thing is actually very good in E6! The point buy system is adjusted to account for up to +4 ECL, so this can allow for many character concepts that would otherwise be prohibitively annoying to play.
For example, here's one off the top of my head: take the Quickling Template from PF (+3 LA I believe) which grants Spring Attack and its prerequisites. Then take a level of any class that has Knowledge (religion) as a class skill, and get access to the Jaunter prestige class from level two (I suggest using the adaptation that lets Jaunter advance spellcasting a little, and mixing it with Beguiler or something). I would take the Wedded to History (Wanderer) feat at level 1 for fluff reasons and to avoid dying of old age at 25: you now have a PC who's very fast, is a wanderer accross the planes and is decent in combat. It's one of the of the only ways to get Teleport or Plane Shift in E6 too!

E6 also allows for other builds like the "master assassin" build: take as many +1d6 sneak attack dips as possible, and a level of something like Warlock that allows you to attack with touch attacks to compensate for the low BAB. This would be terrible in normal d&d, but here the loss of BAB isn't that bad and the sneak attack stays relevant. And you won't have to live through a bunch of slow levels where your sneak attack doesn't rise after all those dips... Add in a Template granting Hide in Plain Sight (Dark from ToM for example) and you're now a master assassin!
I tried this in normal d&d and was disappointed, but it seems much more viable in E6.
Edit: After writing this I thought about it, and came up with this. Rogue 1/Warlock 1/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Psychic rogue 1/ Spelltheif 1/Master of Masks 1(or if your alignment allows, Assassin 1 or Avenger 1). Final result is +5d6 sneak attack on a ranged touch attack, Hide in Plain Sight and good skills. Of course after level six the build would run into a bunch of problems, but in E6 you don't really care about that!

[Psyren]

I found a reworked healer, but the one in the book sucks... It isn't even a spontaneous caster :smallannoyed:

Being prepared actually makes it stronger, because they get access to all the Sanctified Spells that way.

[Luccan]

E6 also allows for other builds like the "master assassin" build: take as many +1d6 sneak attack dips as possible, and a level of something like Warlock that allows you to attack with touch attacks to compensate for the low BAB. This would be terrible in normal d&d, but here the loss of BAB isn't that bad and the sneak attack stays relevant. And you won't have to live through a bunch of slow levels where your sneak attack doesn't rise after all those dips... Add in a Template granting Hide in Plain Sight (Dark from ToM for example) and you're now a master assassin!
I tried this in normal d&d and was disappointed, but it seems much more viable in E6.

This reminded me, I've seen it pointed out that it's possible to convert a few PRC's (like Assassin) into base classes in E6 and not run into huge issues. I believe the recommended method is that the character must be able to reach the requirements by ECL 6 in order to start as a PRC. However, they must also put resources towards qualifying, so an Assassin has to have 4 ranks in Disguise, 8 in Hide, and 8 in Move Silently (and be evil/kill someone to be an assassin, if you usually hold to those requirements) by level 6.

[Westhart]

E6 works well for my usual group. You just have to announce before character generation that you're playing E6, and tell people not to imagine their characters as immortal God-wizards but instead as Gandalf or King Arthur.
Some players hate the idea, but many others love it!

The RHD/LA thing is actually very good in E6! The point buy system is adjusted to account for up to +4 ECL, so this can allow for many character concepts that would otherwise be prohibitively annoying to play.
For example, here's one off the top of my head: take the Quickling Template from PF (+3 LA I believe) which grants Spring Attack and its prerequisites. Then take a level of any class that has Knowledge (religion) as a class skill, and get access to the Jaunter prestige class from level two (I suggest using the adaptation that lets Jaunter advance spellcasting a little, and mixing it with Beguiler or something). I would take the Wedded to History (Wanderer) feat at level 1 for fluff reasons and to avoid dying of old age at 25: you now have a PC who's very fast, is a wanderer accross the planes and is decent in combat. It's one of the of the only ways to get Teleport or Plane Shift in E6 too!

E6 also allows for other builds like the "master assassin" build: take as many +1d6 sneak attack dips as possible, and a level of something like Warlock that allows you to attack with touch attacks to compensate for the low BAB. This would be terrible in normal d&d, but here the loss of BAB isn't that bad and the sneak attack stays relevant. And you won't have to live through a bunch of slow levels where your sneak attack doesn't rise after all those dips... Add in a Template granting Hide in Plain Sight (Dark from ToM for example) and you're now a master assassin!
I tried this in normal d&d and was disappointed, but it seems much more viable in E6.
Hmm, fair enough then.

Being prepared actually makes it stronger, because they get access to all the Sanctified Spells that way.

Huh, didn't even think about that :smallbiggrin:

[Krazzman]

PHB2's Shapeshifting Druid... I am still mad that I have not had the chance to try it out because either someone else wanted to run a Druid or I had to do another role... I had 3 different builds all ready and statted up for different type of games.

Also Gestalt. I used it as a DM for my last 2 games, I currently play it in a game my wife DM's and I currently use it in a game I am DMing. The amount of options it yields are awesome. You can have 2 Fighter//Rogues in the party that are wildly different.

Unofficially my favourite is E6 though.

[tedcahill2]

Not necessarily my favorite, but I house ruled in my current game that characters gain a feat at every level off level and an attribute point at every even level. Over 20 levels you get a total of 10 attribute points and 10 feats (instead of the usual 5 and 7).

I balanced the increased attribute points by using a 25 point buy for character creation. All stats, prior to racial mods, had to fall between 9 and 16, and could only be raised to 20, prior to racial mods, using the attribute points. They're lower level, so it hasn't come up yet, but I was thinking that points above 20 would cost double attribute points or something.

[Westhart]

PHB2's Shapeshifting Druid... I am still mad that I have not had the chance to try it out because either someone else wanted to run a Druid or I had to do another role... I had 3 different builds all ready and statted up for different type of games.

Also Gestalt. I used it as a DM for my last 2 games, I currently play it in a game my wife DM's and I currently use it in a game I am DMing. The amount of options it yields are awesome. You can have 2 Fighter//Rogues in the party that are wildly different.

Unofficially my favourite is E6 though.
Hmm, I'll have to try E6 some time... add that to the list alongside PF and 5E (I can't, it is... I don't like 5e just from looking through the PHB :smallbiggrin:)

Not necessarily my favorite, but I house ruled in my current game that characters gain a feat at every level off level and an attribute point at every even level. Over 20 levels you get a total of 10 attribute points and 10 feats (instead of the usual 5 and 7).

I did feats every even level but didn't change attribute points for a game I'm starting up.


I balanced the increased attribute points by using a 25 point buy for character creation. All stats, prior to racial mods, had to fall between 9 and 16, and could only be raised to 20, prior to racial mods, using the attribute points. They're lower level, so it hasn't come up yet, but I was thinking that points above 20 would cost double attribute points or something.
Hmm, not sure why you are capping at 20, your not trying to mimic 5E's horrible bounded accuracy are you?!

[Horrified Face] :smallwink:

[BassoonHero]

Hmm, not sure why you are capping at 20, your not trying to mimic 5E's horrible bounded accuracy are you?!
I've thought about doing something similar as part of a scheme to replace stat-boosting magic items.

The problem is that when you just give extra ability increases, many or most players are just going to put all of them into their most important stat. It's like having a linear point buy system -- you'd see mostly 18s and 8s. Regular point buy encourages spreading out your points by giving nonlinear returns. The same principle could apply to ability increases. In base 3.5, most players are going to put all five increases into one stat. When a character only ever gets those five increases, this isn't such a big deal. But if you give out ten increases, the party wizard is going to get a +10 Int every time. This further encourages hyper-specialization over well-roundedness and advantages single-stat casters over other classes.

One solution I toyed with was starting with point buy and giving characters one more point to allocate each level. That way, you could bump up a low stat every level or upgrade your best stats every few levels. The numbers need some tweaking, but I think the idea is sound. The major downside is that you have more information to keep track of. A simpler solution like charging double for abilities over 20 might be a good middle ground.

[Westhart]

I've thought about doing something similar as part of a scheme to replace stat-boosting magic items.

The problem is that when you just give extra ability increases, many or most players are just going to put all of them into their most important stat. It's like having a linear point buy system -- you'd see mostly 18s and 8s. Regular point buy encourages spreading out your points by giving nonlinear returns. The same principle could apply to ability increases. In base 3.5, most players are going to put all five increases into one stat. When a character only ever gets those five increases, this isn't such a big deal. But if you give out ten increases, the party wizard is going to get a +10 Int every time. This further encourages hyper-specialization over well-roundedness and advantages single-stat casters over other classes.

One solution I toyed with was starting with point buy and giving characters one more point to allocate each level. That way, you could bump up a low stat every level or upgrade your best stats every few levels. The numbers need some tweaking, but I think the idea is sound. The major downside is that you have more information to keep track of. A simpler solution like charging double for abilities over 20 might be a good middle ground.

Hmm, fair enough then...

[Grod_The_Giant]

One solution I toyed with was starting with point buy and giving characters one more point to allocate each level. That way, you could bump up a low stat every level or upgrade your best stats every few levels. The numbers need some tweaking, but I think the idea is sound. The major downside is that you have more information to keep track of. A simpler solution like charging double for abilities over 20 might be a good middle ground.
When I was designing such a system, I think I went with "you can't boost the same stat twice in a row." That forces SAD classes to branch out a bit and slows down their progression without really affecting weaker MAD ones.

[Westhart]

When I was designing such a system, I think I went with "you can't boost the same stat twice in a row." That forces SAD classes to branch out a bit and slows down their progression without really affecting weaker MAD ones.

The Archivist likes this :smalltongue:. Of course if you are referring to Giants and Graveyards I think you got rid of 'em...

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Archivist likes this :smalltongue:. Of course if you are referring to Giants and Graveyards I think you got rid of 'em...
It was part of my low-magic-item ruleset here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules). Though yeah, Archivists got the axe in G&G, along with most other high-tier arcane casters. I guess there should probably be an ACF for the Ritualist to cover the same thematic ground... <wanders off to tinker with years-old homebrew>

[Westhart]

It was part of my low-magic-item ruleset here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357810-Chopping-Down-the-Christmas-Tree-Low-Magic-Item-Rules). Though yeah, Archivists got the axe in G&G, along with most other high-tier arcane casters.

Ah yes, that was it :smallsmile:


I guess there should probably be an ACF for the Ritualist to cover the same thematic ground... <wanders off to tinker with years-old homebrew>

[Whistles Innocently]
"I swear officer, I had nothing to do with that"
:smallcool:

[Psyren]

Hmm, I'll have to try E6 some time... add that to the list alongside PF and 5E (I can't, it is... I don't like 5e just from looking through the PHB :smallbiggrin:)

I did feats every even level but didn't change attribute points for a game I'm starting up.

Hmm, not sure why you are capping at 20, your not trying to mimic 5E's horrible bounded accuracy are you?!

[Horrified Face] :smallwink:


I've thought about doing something similar as part of a scheme to replace stat-boosting magic items.

The problem is that when you just give extra ability increases, many or most players are just going to put all of them into their most important stat. It's like having a linear point buy system -- you'd see mostly 18s and 8s. Regular point buy encourages spreading out your points by giving nonlinear returns. The same principle could apply to ability increases. In base 3.5, most players are going to put all five increases into one stat. When a character only ever gets those five increases, this isn't such a big deal. But if you give out ten increases, the party wizard is going to get a +10 Int every time. This further encourages hyper-specialization over well-roundedness and advantages single-stat casters over other classes.

One solution I toyed with was starting with point buy and giving characters one more point to allocate each level. That way, you could bump up a low stat every level or upgrade your best stats every few levels. The numbers need some tweaking, but I think the idea is sound. The major downside is that you have more information to keep track of. A simpler solution like charging double for abilities over 20 might be a good middle ground.

Starfinder has an interesting approach to this. You increase stats every 5 levels, but when you do, you increase four different attributes simultaneously. Any attributes below 17 go up 2 points, but if you're 17 or above you only get a 1 point increase. This huge boost lets the MAD classes keep up with the SAD ones for the most part. You also can't start the game with lower than a 10 or higher than an 18 in any stat (before race and theme adjustments.)

[Westhart]

Starfinder has an interesting approach to this. You increase stats every 5 levels, but when you do, you increase four different attributes simultaneously. Any attributes below 17 go up 2 points, but if you're 17 or above you only get a 1 point increase. This huge boost lets the MAD classes keep up with the SAD ones for the most part. You also can't start the game with lower than a 10 or higher than an 18 in any stat (before race and theme adjustments.)

Hmm, that sounds interesting.

[tedcahill2]

I did feats every even level but didn't change attribute points for a game I'm starting up.

Hmm, not sure why you are capping at 20, your not trying to mimic 5E's horrible bounded accuracy are you?!

[Horrified Face] :smallwink:

No. I'm not familiar with 5E. I was just trying to stick close to the formula the book was written under. Max stat of 18 at character creation, +5 from stat points, gives a potential 23 in a single stat before modifiers (19 at 4, 20 at 8, 21 at 12, 22 at 16, 23 at 20).

More stat points could throw that out of whack, or so I thought. 17 at 2, 18 at 4, 19 at 6, 20 at 8; all on track up to here. Then 21 at 10, 22 at 12, 23 at 14, 24 at 16, 25 at 18, 26 at 20.

Looking at this written out it actually looks fine. It was a level 1 game so I didn't think to hard about scaling.

[Westhart]

No. I'm not familiar with 5E. I was just trying to stick close to the formula the book was written under. Max stat of 18 at character creation, +5 from stat points, gives a potential 23 in a single stat before modifiers (19 at 4, 20 at 8, 21 at 12, 22 at 16, 23 at 20).

More stat points could throw that out of whack, or so I thought. 17 at 2, 18 at 4, 19 at 6, 20 at 8; all on track up to here. Then 21 at 10, 22 at 12, 23 at 14, 24 at 16, 25 at 18, 26 at 20.

Looking at this written out it actually looks fine. It was a level 1 game so I didn't think to hard about scaling.

Ah, fair enough. The 5e thing was a joke, as from what I heard the bounded accuracy is rubbish... As in the difference on skill proficiency for a level 20 vs level 1 is +4 (? at least I heard it was something like that :smallannoyed:)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ah, fair enough. The 5e thing was a joke, as from what I heard the bounded accuracy is rubbish... As in the difference on skill proficiency for a level 20 vs level 1 is +4 (? at least I heard it was something like that :smallannoyed:)
+6, assuming you've got a max stat and proficiency at both levels. Or +10 if you're a Rogue or Bard and have Expertise. Skills are kind of too swingy, but most of the rest of the game works out like a simpler, better-balanced 3.5. (Most classes are somewhere around T4, with casters more like T3. Some builds have marginally higher damage potential, which makes people on the subforum flip out and whine. Class-vs-class balance really only goes out the window when you change the encounters/rest paradigm)

[Westhart]

+6, assuming you've got a max stat and proficiency at both levels. Or +10 if you're a Rogue or Bard and have Expertise. Skills are kind of too swingy, but most of the rest of the game works out like a simpler, better-balanced 3.5. (Most classes are somewhere around T4, with casters more like T3. Some builds have marginally higher damage potential, which makes people on the subforum flip out and whine. Class-vs-class balance really only goes out the window when you change the encounters/rest paradigm)

Well, I stand corrected :smallbiggrin:.