PDA

View Full Version : Roleplaying Revising character concepts in play



2D8HP
2017-11-10, 04:29 PM
This may not be uncommon, but I'm struck by how the original "character concepts" of my PC's don't last long after play starts.

When I first "gamed" the "concepts" were "guy with sword wants to get treasure in Dungeons", and "guy with a spell wants to get treasure in Dungeons', but in time other motivations were thought of, and some games provided them.

Now it's the fashion to submit a "back-story" and "concept" of the PC to the GM, and I've experienced submitting my submitting multiple back-stories to a GM, and after the GM selected one, as the game progressed it was clear to me that the character I thought was suggested by the back-story didn't match what the GM perceived the character to be, and adjustments were needed by me if I was to continue playing.

Another time, I had a "concept" of a PC that was a deserter from a failed rebellion, who would try to redeem his cowardice (ala Conrad's "Lord Jim") and had a hatred of injustice (ala Steinbeck's "Tom Joad"), with a weakness for drink (ala the early "Sam Vime's" of Pratchett) except....

... in.the moments of the GM asking "What do you do?" I wound up playing the character as an expy of "Captain Haddock" (from the Tintin cartoons by Hergé), which I continue to do (my favorite current PC).

Despite asking for the back-stories/concepts and accepting them in the first place, the GM's don't seem to mind that "concepts" are dropped (sometimes they seem to push for it, but why accept the PC in the first place?), and by-and-large other players don't seem to care, but I'm a little puzzled and mifed by my inability to actually play out the original "concepts" of most of my PC's.

What do you think?

What's your experience?

Aneurin
2017-11-10, 05:10 PM
Now it's the fashion to submit a "back-story" and "concept" of the PC to the GM, and I've experienced submitting my submitting multiple back-stories to a GM, and after the GM selected one, as the game progressed it was clear to me that the character I thought was suggested by the back-story didn't match what the GM perceived the character to be, and adjustments were needed by me if I was to continue playing.

I think that, on the whole, this is a bad way of doing things. Submitting a concept and simply having it being accepted is pretty much guaranteed to leave some dissonance between what the creator of the concept envisioned, and what someone accepting the concept envisions. This happens with campaign pitches too; it's hardly exclusive to character concepts and backstories.

What you need to do - and what the GM needs to do - is talk about the concept, instead of just reading it and going yes/no. Not only will it make sure you're both on the same page, it will help flesh out the character, find the weak bits or maybe just come up with something you like better in places.


Your concept will still change in play; that's just a given. Some bits won't quite work with the campaign. Other bits won't work with the party. Some things just won't be fun for you to play, despite how great they sounded in your head. It's just the give and take of roleplaying, and the compromises of being part of a social undertaking. But, hopefully, by talking the changes will be small and subtle, rather than abruptly playing a completely different character (which would annoy the hell out of me if I were the DM).



Another time, I had a "concept" of a PC that was a deserter from a failed rebellion, who would try to redeem his cowardice (ala Conrad's "Lord Jim") and had a hatred of injustice (ala Steinbeck's "Tom Joad"), with a weakness for drink (ala the early "Sam Vime's" of Pratchett) except....

... in.the moments of the GM asking "What do you do?" I wound up playing the character as an expy of "Captain Haddock" (from the Tintin cartoons by Hergé), which I continue to do (my favorite current PC).

I think your example is missing some important context here. Why did the GM asking "what do you do?" result in you playing a completely different character? :smallconfused:

D+1
2017-11-10, 05:35 PM
IMO, backstory is something a player writes FOR THEMSELVES to help provide them with a starting point for developing the ACTUAL personality and behavior of their character. If a DM "needs" a backstory for each PC to run their campaign then it suggests to me that the DM may be starting their campaign without already having ANY idea of what direction to take it, and that they then need PC backstories in order to obtain ideas of what they might want to have occur in their campaign. Again IMO, if the DM begins with an interesting campaign in mind then PC backstories are unnecessary to the success of the game, nor the ability to INVOLVE PC's directly in events. Too often I've also seen DM's pick ONE PC backstory out of the pile and then focus the whole campaign upon THAT PC and THAT singular backstory - which is clearly doing a disservice to those players who may have actually invested just as much or more effort into developing THEIR PC's backstory hoping/assuming that their PC will be given equal time and importance in repayment for that effort, and may actually be doing a disservice to the player who DID NOT anticipate or desire that their PC and their backstory would become the crux of the whole game.

It is also my experience that as the OP suggests, once the actual gameplay begins and the rubber meets the road (as the saying goes) then players perceptions of their predetermined backstories inevitably change, but if the DM has hung any significant portion of the future of their campaign upon that backstory then the player is in the undesirable position of being unable to ADJUST their idea of what their PC might be or what portions of their backstory might be desirable to DE-emphasize or even delete, or to add new elements to better fit their REFINED character concept. Writing a backstory FOR THE USE OF THE DM, rather than for themselves assumes that all backstories are equal, that all players have an equal ability to create a backstory that NEVER needs changing because the player has such an unshakable grasp of every aspect of their concept that will never shift when finally playtested.

Backstories are cool, and useful, but players should NEVER be held to them as immutable content for the DM's game world and the ongoing events of the campaign. If aspects of a backstory happen to fit with the DM's unfolding game, so much the better. If adventures can be mined from backstories WILLINGLY provided by players for that purpose, so much the better. But backstories should not be a REQUIREMENT imposed by DM's so that the DM can use (and abuse!) those backstories, and to hold players to upholding aspects of those backstories that might not want to embrace as part and parcel of their character once actual gameplay begins to shape that character in unanticipated ways.

Psikerlord
2017-11-12, 08:08 PM
I dont believe in backstories, anymore.

I used to write a few paragraphs on background/personality. Turns out I was the onyl one who read it (or remembered it), and/or in play I would change my mind about things and want to play things a bit different.

Nowadays I greatly prefer 1 or 2 sentence backgrounds. Thats it (maybe a roll on a party bonds table to explain how they know each other).

Then during sessions I encourage players to expand on their history etc as the game unfolds. Everyone hears about it at the same time, at the table - ie when it matters. The other players, and the GM, get to riff off it. Yes, playesr will tend to invent histories that somehow assist them in the current adventure, but frankly - cool beans - and then once that bit of fiction has crystallized, we move on to the next bit of the adventure...

I find players who are free to improv their backgrounds will (i) RP more, (ii) they will world build, (iii) they make up cool NPCs, (iv) all sorts of great sh*t.

Even better, in some ways, is DCC's initial funnel adventure. Those PCs play out their history by playing their transition from farmer into warrior, usually with the baker, rat catcher and candlestick maker dying horrible deaths alongside them.

Cluedrew
2017-11-12, 08:49 PM
I never did backstories.

I never said how Den ended up being one of the engineers at Bronzeman's despite having the body of a 12 year old. I never told the story of how Ya'll Shi ended up with a metal plate in his skull (it appeared on some records, it never came up directly). I never said what jobs Amanda did before that fateful day at the bar. Nor did I say why there was a man passed out under the table. Yesterday is history, they are things that we can learn from it (like how we got here) but it is over and done with.

On the other hand I often have several paragraphs (if not actually, about that much in concert ideas in my head) about my character's personality and habits. How they deal with situations, what drives them forward and what they care on them on an average day. In other words, I like to focus on who a character is not who they were.

2D8HP
2017-11-12, 09:45 PM
.

.


.


.


Thanks guys for the great advice!

....except it only works if you (or like-minded people) are the DM, or if the game was played as I remember it was 30+ years ago.

For the most part DM's now go by the dominant model of "Submit Back'stories, and I'll decide which PC's and players may play".

I went too many decades without playing, and opportunities to play are too far apart for me to insist on a model that's more to my liking, so advice on better fitting myself to how things are done is what I'm looking for.

Cluedrew
2017-11-12, 10:01 PM
Try submitting you notes on who they are today as the backstory? Or run your own game. The longest running game I've ever been in started that way. Actually it started entirely by accident because I prepared some setting notes on a world I had created as an exercise and someone asked me if they could join the campaign I was going to run in it. Some like that, it was a while ago.

Where was I going with this? That may have just been a random trip down memory lane.

RazorChain
2017-11-12, 10:04 PM
2DHP submitting backstories is often used for online games to weed out the chaff. It gives the GM a chance to veer away from total idiots and shows that you are committed and ready to put some time and effort into the game.


In my group we make the backstories together, try find a reason why a group of people is traveling together It's just fine to revise a concept during play because else the player might want to retire the character, usually the revision happens in the first few session anyway, a growing pain so to speak.

KillianHawkeye
2017-11-12, 10:41 PM
For the most part DM's now go by the dominant model of "Submit Back'stories, and I'll decide which PC's and players may play".

As this is in utter contrast to what my experiences are and have been, I'll suggest that you need to find some better groups and/or better DMs.

Mr Beer
2017-11-12, 10:56 PM
I prefer the 'couple of sentences and let the game flesh out the character' approach. Also, I play GURPS so glaring personality issues tend to be baked into the character design...not that this is exactly a substitute for personality but it helps.

If I ever needed an elaborate backstory, I would work with the players rather than simply demand people write me essays about their characters.

Kind of understand the online thing of making people write backstories to weed out idiots, lazies and crazies but still. It's kind of a slap in the face to have people spend time on something you 'need' and then immediately ignore forever, if that's what's going on.

Theoboldi
2017-11-13, 12:09 AM
Speaking as a GM who plays mostly online and does ask for backstories, I do so mostly to

a) ensure the player has actually understood what the game is about and what characters I've asked for

and b) figure out what kind of place the player imagines their character has in the world. I do work with my players to integrate their backstory into my games as much as I can, and also give the additional starting information depending on their background.

Even so, I expect those backstories to be short and only a rough outline. Theres no use in writing up a novel, as most characters change during play anyways and a backstory is not indivative of the quality of a players actual RP. Also, I do apologize for all GMs who ask for backstories and then completely ignore them. Those people tend to have no idea what they are doing, and from my experience their games fall apart rather quickly.

2D8HP
2017-11-13, 03:01 AM
....GMs who ask for backstories and then completely ignore them. Those people tend to have no idea what they are doing, and from my experience their games fall apart rather quickly.


Thanks @Theoboldi,

FWLIW, less than one-in-nine of the PbP games that I've been privileged to play at this Forum have lasted more than two months (most less than that), and out of about 20, other than being required to play, only once has of any of the back-stories that I've written, have had any relevance, and it netted my PC the opposite of what I had hoped for the PC (the DM dropped out, and the gsme was short-lived).

My preference would be:


Instead of getting a "slush pile" of PC back-stories, GM's would start communicating what kinds of PC's would be appropriate.

If they request back-stories, they actually use them as something besides an "entrance exam essay".

They actually read the damn things instead of going by highest word count.


To pad out a "back-story", I actually included song lyrics.

In Latin.

The acceptance rate increased.

If I have to write one, I'd like it to have more meaning than just seeing how much I may type.

Earlier this week there was a PbP recruitment in which the recruiting DM posted:

"I'd like you all to start at level 1, medium-power stat rolls (4d6b3), and with a backstory"

But other than that he wanted "realistic characters" (undefined), I was clueless as to what he wanted, so I just sent him a couple of BS''s that other GM's liked, but today, inspired by GM's who posted in this thread that they actually bother to communicate with their players about what PC's are appropriate, I posted:


Now I can keep flinging "back-story" after "back-story" at you in the hope thaf one pleases you, and perhaps you'd enjoy reading them, but after a while I would find reading them almost as tedious as writing them, so here's an alternative idea:

Just say what kind of PC's you want.

How about that?

Or would you prefer some more Batman/Mad Max claptrap?

I can do that easy.

No?

Then just say what types of PC's you want.

Please.
(I probably shot myself in the foot, but I'm weary of the ritual)


As this is in utter contrast to what my experiences are and have been, I'll suggest that you need to find some better groups and/or better DMs.


I had some great groups and DM'S/GM's back in the very late 1970's and in the 80's, but I don't seem to have the knack for finding any now.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-11-13, 10:12 AM
I think the problem here is that you're looking at PbP games, which are a very different beast than your standard in-person games. The ratio of potential players to DMs is even higher than normal, you don't have even the most casual acquaintance with the other participants, people drop games all the time, and... you kind of need people who are going to get really into the writing part of things. I think RazorChain is right about "please submit backstories" being code for "please make me believe you're going to be a productive part of this group."

That said, I don't particularly like going into games with detailed backstories-- I've come to kind of like Fate's "describe your last adventure, how a fellow partymate appeared in yours, and how you appeared in a fellow partymate's," but that's more for having a base for player-player interactions than for knowing where I came from. I prefer to discover my characters in play. It's also really crappy of DMs to ask for backstories and not pay attention to them; even if you don't plan on using them extensively, a few nods here and there aren't hard to work in.

Theoboldi
2017-11-13, 11:59 AM
Thanks @Theoboldi,

It's really a matter of course. When I create a game, I freely take on a responsibility to try and create a good and enjoyable adventure for the players I find, as they are the ones who enable me to have fun running a game. And I do try to take that responsibility seriously.



(I probably shot myself in the foot, but I'm weary of the ritual)

Yeah....best to bid that game goodbye, but I get where you're coming from. I think part of the problem is that many GMs do have an idea of what kind of game they want, but have no idea how to pull it off and no idea what kind of characters they need.


By the way I'm still bitter that one of my GMs back in the day asked us to create backstories that gave us goals to work towards, and literally the first NPC we talked to tricked my character into a faustian bargain that instantly resolved his goal. Leaving me with nothing to work towards. The one thing worse than wasted backstories is backstories that are integrated so badly they might as well be wasted. :smalltongue:


On the actual topic of changing characters within play, I have had great success doing so with characters of mine that had backstories. The most recent example would be a character I played in an MLP game, whose basic concept was that he was a young pegasus with a famous unicorn magician grandfather who he really wanted to be like. The result of which was that he grew jealous towards other unicorns, as he knew he could never actually match the magic of his grandfather. In the original concept, the character was a bit of a braggart with a big heart, who always tried to find the best in others and encourage them to better themselves, with a particular dislike for lazy unicorns that did not use their magic.

In actual play though, he ended up being more of a chivalrous, but loud-mouthed warrior, who did the right thing no matter the cost to himself. I found it worked better in the party dynamic that existed, and conflicted even better with his innate feelings of jealousy that drove him to act badly at times. As a result he's become something of an odd Kamina/King Arthur mashup, and is now one of my favorite characters.

I think if you want to have a concept that you stick to with your character, it should only be a specific, but memorable part of him. Every character changes in play, and trying to rigidly adhere to a planned out personality is not going to end in success. But if you can single out and identify an exact part of his concept that you want to keep, that part of the concept can survive almost any change and even enhance them.

At least in my experience.

2D8HP
2017-11-13, 12:17 PM
....I think if you want to have a concept that you stick to with your character, it should only be a specific, but memorable part of him. Every character changes in play, and trying to rigidly adhere to a planned out personality is not going to end in success. But if you can single out and identify an exact part of his concept that you want to keep, that part of the concept can survive almost any change and even enhance them.

At least in my experience.

Sounds like good advice.

Perhaps there should be a two part "character concept", one part is a core of what kind of character the player hopes to play, the other is a lengthy "writing sample" that GM's seem to favor.

For the record I've had two back-stories that I submitted that I've gotten feedback beyond "This one is compelling", and both of them are the ones that lasted longest among games I've applied to (one my PC was rejected as "a bad fit", the other my PC was accepted to).

Which leads me to conclude that inviting 2D8HP (me) to play is bad luck for a games longevity, and/or GM's that bother to read and give feedback to their players about the PC concepts have longer games.

Unfortunately, such GM's seem to be a small minority.

RazorChain
2017-11-13, 08:45 PM
Sounds like good advice.

Perhaps there should be a two part "character concept", one part is a core of what kind of character the player hopes to play, the other is a lengthy "writing sample" that GM's seem to favor.

For the record I've had two back-stories that I submitted that I've gotten feedback beyond "This one is compelling", and both of them are the ones that lasted longest among games I've applied to (one my PC was rejected as "a bad fit", the other my PC was accepted to).

Which leads me to conclude that inviting 2D8HP (me) to play is bad luck for a games longevity, and/or GM's that bother to read and give feedback to their players about the PC concepts have longer games.

Unfortunately, such GM's seem to be a small minority.


Character concept is usually short, something you can use 2 sentences on like: A mighty barbarian with a questionable past. He's trying to set things right and redeem himself or A young farmboy who thinks he's an orphan discovers he has mystical powers. His father is an evil overlord who wants to exploit his mystical powers in the service of the dark side.

You base your backstory on the character concept, it goes into more depth like what does the barbarian want to redeem himself of or who is that farmboys father? Backstories don't have to be that long.

Jay R
2017-11-14, 01:22 PM
Long backstories work well for people (like me) who like long backstories. Short or nonexistent backstories work for the people who prefer them. Deciding which is the "right" way to design a character is no different from deciding whose fun is the right kind of fun.

My characters will always have backstories because that's part of my character design process. That doesn't mean other players need them.

As a DM, I stopped encouraging back-stories from people with no interest in them many years ago. I had one player whose basic back story was always "I'm a fighter who likes to hit things."

I once insisted on at least a paragraph, and it came out something like this: "Forlong grew up watching the fighters at practice, and always wanted to join them. He considers his sword his closest friend, and always takes care of it. He's now looking for opportunities to use his fighting skills to help people."

I'm sure that if I had pushed him to do it, he could have written five pages of back-story that boil down to "I'm a fighter who likes to hit things."