I got early access to Xanathar's Guide and I'm unimpressed with the Wizard

[Darth_Versity]

So I have some scans of the new class options and spells from Xanathar's guide as we'll be starting a campaign before it's released and wanted to ensure I made the character I actually would play (Yes I am still buying the book when it's out)

So just wanted to give my two cents on the new Wizard option as that is the class I'll be playing and wanted to see if I'd use that or an Abjurer. I'll be honest, it's bad. I would actually say it's the worst option for wizards at the moment and seems to have no direct idea of what it's trying to do. Its also the only wizard option while all the other classes (from my quick perusal) have at least two.

Sorry, just wanted to rant. I'm a Wizard fan and hate seeing a book where they get shafted.

[Spacehamster]

So I have some scans of the new class options and spells from Xanathar's guide as we'll be starting a campaign before it's released and wanted to ensure I made the character I actually would play (Yes I am still buying the book when it's out)

So just wanted to give my two cents on the new Wizard option as that is the class I'll be playing and wanted to see if I'd use that or an Abjurer. I'll be honest, it's bad. I would actually say it's the worst option for wizards at the moment and seems to have no direct idea of what it's trying to do. Its also the only wizard option while all the other classes (from my quick perusal) have at least two.

Sorry, just wanted to rant. I'm a Wizard fan and hate seeing a book where they get shafted.

What do you mean? Its one of the strongest wizards out there? O_o
At the very least its going to be an insane 2 level dip.

[Naanomi]

... wizards got a huge new list of spells at their disposal as well, they are not hurting for boosts compared to many other classes from this book

[Shadowknight12]

As an Abjurer fan myself, I see basically zero value in the War Wizard, personally, because while the defensive bonuses are okay (and the bonus to Initiative is rather powerful), the offensive bonuses are kinda missing the point. The Power Surge concept is really good but it's applied in such an underwhelming way. Deflecting Shroud is equally disappointing.

To be honest, this could've been an alternate take on Abjuration (or a meld of Abjuration and Divination) and it would've been a massively better subclass. I don't think the wizard needs +1 to +10 bonus damage under specific conditions when they can do so much more with actual Evocation spells or just letting pretty much every other class take care of the damage.

That said, the Wizard had the most starting subclasses (eight) and got a ninth one in SCAG. I don't mind us getting just one here.

[Waterdeep Merch]

They're a survivalist archetype, possibly more so than even the abjurer and the bladesinger. And they're without a doubt the masters of concentration effects, given their myriad ways to both maintain concentration and prevent checks to disrupt it, all of which are either at-will or always active.

Those things also give them a leg up on long, grueling adventuring days with heavy spell slot demand. Some of their spells are more likely to last, and they themselves are less gimped when boiled down to just cantrips and basic features.

It lacks any of the big booms or control abilities of, say, divination or illusion archetypes, as it fills a different niche entirely.

[Darth_Versity]

What do you mean? Its one of the strongest wizards out there? O_o
At the very least its going to be an insane 2 level dip.

I can see a dip being useful, but for a wizard it lacks so much. It's almost as if the designer hadn't decided what a war wizard was.

Is he an Abjurer? A damage dealer? A front liner? The abilities are all over the place. AC bonuses, Save bonus, damage bonus.

Then there's the lack of synergy. Power surge requires you to use dispel magic and counterspell. Two spells that it doesn't provide and thus almost must be your level 5 or 6 spell choices. Then arcane deflection uses your reaction, which is needed for counterspell. It also stops you casting spells, so no dispel magic now. Also, power surge is for increasing damage on spells. Once again, no spells when using Arcane Deflection.

The rest of the abilities seem good, and are something I'd want, but most games are more focused on low levels of play, and mostly those abilities are from 10+.

I find it hard to like a class design where the first two abilities (and arguably the main focus of the class) are in such opposition of each other

[Dalebert]

It's not perfect synergy but I'm okay with it. With it being so front-loaded, it's hard to be disappointed by Arcane Deflection. You already get your int bonus to initiative which is basically half of Alertness and can be stacked with it, and most of the time if you need to shield an attack, you're going to use the Shield spell which works better for that. AD will be SO nice to have for saving throws in some cases despite the cost, even if that cost is use of your 6th level ability for just one round. One of the primary uses will be for concentration effects. You can make it synergize better by the right choices of spells, e.g. Flaming Sphere, Vampiric Touch, Maximillian's Earthen Grasp; basically all those concentration spells that give you an action or bonus action during the duration. If you've cast those spells, AD helps you maintain concentration if you're hit. Now you don't need to cast a 1st or higher spell because you still have that spell going and something powerful to use your action or bonus action for. With Flaming Sphere, you can still move it as a bonus action and cast a cantrip.

You're right that you're sort of obligated to get Dispel Magic and Counterspell. It would have been nice if they gave your those spells and even better if they improve your usage of them like an Abjurer, but those are really common spells for wizards to take so there's a decent chance of just copying them from a fellow wizard. And you don't really need them until 6th which means you can snag staples like Fireball at 5th.

[Rivuzu]

I completely disagree with OP. I love the Wizard in XgtE. It'll allow me to play out my Robillard wanna-be style Sea Wizard fantasies in my games!

I was never a fan of focusing on a certain school of magic anyway.

[Dalebert]

Contemplating a 2-level dip in bard at some point and the Alert Feat. :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

It's almost as if the designer hadn't decided what a war wizard was.

Is he an Abjurer? A damage dealer? A front liner? The abilities are all over the place. AC bonuses, Save bonus, damage bonus.

The War Wizard is a Wizard that goes to war. You know, where you need to deal lots of damages, be protected a lot, and deal with a lot of various saves.

I haven't checked the class to say if they succeeded or not, but their design goal was clear.

[Deathtongue]

The War Wizard is a Wizard that goes to war. You know, where you need to deal lots of damages, be protected a lot, and deal with a lot of various saves.That's not a character concept. That's just a list of die manipulations. Describe what a War Wizard does compared to a, say, Abjurer Wizard. Don't use boring descriptions like 'gives allies a +2 to AC as a reaction'. Use purely narrative descriptions. Once you do, you'll realize that the subclass is a complete waste of space and time.

The War Wizard is probably the worst new subclass in the book from both a mechanical and especially roleplaying justification standpoint. And there's some heavy competition in the form of the Sun Soul Monk and the Arcane Archer.

[Shadowknight12]

Since I was left underwhelmed by the War Wizard, I'll probably redo it. Personally, I feel like doing a set of 4 wizard subclasses that pair certain schools that go well together would be a neat idea, and the one that the current War Wizard reminds me of is Abjuration+Divination, so that's probably the way I'll end up going.

[Naanomi]

The fluff doesn’t match the mechanics well, it is true; but I think War Wizard represents a ‘magic duelist’ fairly well... initiative bonuses, counterspells followed by hard-hitting counter attacks, defenses against a wide range of magical attack methods

[Unoriginal]

That's not a character concept. That's just a list of die manipulations. Describe what a War Wizard does compared to a, say, Abjurer Wizard. Don't use boring descriptions like 'gives allies a +2 to AC as a reaction'. Use purely narrative descriptions.

The War Wizard is the Wizard who is in the thick of battle, putting the hurt on the enemies at crucial moments as well as defending from weapons, spells and battle hazards thanks to their arcane might, and keep their focus on their spells active even in horrendous situation. Meanwhile the Abjurer is tied up in their defensive magic, where they excel, but they lack offensive advantages and have little options if their defenses do get breached.


Once you do, you'll realize that the subclass is a complete waste of space and time.

I didn't realize that, so I guess you're wrong.

[Deathtongue]

The War Wizard is the Wizard who is in the thick of battle, putting the hurt on the enemies at crucial moments as well as defending from weapons, spells and battle hazards thanks to their arcane might, and keep their focus on their spells active even in horrendous situation.Which exactly describes the Abjurer and Bladesinger.


but they lack offensive advantages and have little options if their defenses do get breached.What? If either class's defenses get breached in a way besides 'a CR 1/4 skeleton snuck in the back, oh no!' way, neither if them are going to rely on their class features. They're going to use spells like Misty Step, Shield, Shocking Grasp, Fly, Resilient Sphere, Greater Invis, etc. Sheesh, in a lot of ways the Abjurer is better at handling a defense breach because they have a sizable hit point bulge and they're eventually resistant and advantageous versus magical effects -- which in combination take care of about 85% of mid/high-level backline threats.

I can forgive a subclass that's bad mechanically but good conceptually (Purple Dragon Knight) or bad conceptually but good mechanically (Champion Fighter) but one that's both? Nah. I love 5E D&D, I wrote a 150 page guide for it, but I'm not going to overlook a blunder like the War Wizard.

[Unoriginal]

Well, I'm not going to argue with you about what you consider a good or a bad concept, Deathtongue, because we have no reason to bicker about a subjective opinion.

However, given you consider it's such a massive blunder, could you please explain more in detail how does the War Wizard fail as a subclass?

[Deathtongue]

However, given you consider it's such a massive blunder, could you please explain more in detail how does the War Wizard fail as a subclass?Besides the conceptual failing (which I think is enough of a reason to scrap the class), the subclass itself lacks a killer app.

Like, go through the list of other wizard subclasses.

Abjuration: Pretty much everything, but especially Improved Abjuration
Conjuration: Focused Conjuration, Durable Summons
Divination: Pretty much everything, but especially Portent.
Enchantment: Instinctive Charm, Alter Memories
Evoker: Potent Evocations, Overchannel
Illusionist: Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality
Necromancer: Undead Thralls, Command Undead
Transmuter: ... actually, it doesn't have one, but it's acknowledge to stink anyway.
Bladesinger: Bladesong, Song of Victory
Theurgy: Domain Access, Channel Divinity Access
Old Lore Wizard: lol

The War Wizard doesn't have a killer app. It has abilities that reduce net damage taken and reflect a small amount of damage, but it doesn't have anything that turns the tide of battle or adds another role to the wizard. It'll still perform well or even OP in a party, because it's a dang wizard, but compared to the other wizard subclasses it barely matches the utility of the Transmuter. For much the same reason why the Transmuter is the weakest wizard subclass.

But at least the Transmuter has some roleplaying utility the War Wizard doesn't. The War Wizard is just boring number manipulation.

[mgshamster]

The transmuter is the weakest subclass? Really? That's the one that appeals to me the most. I've always thought it was the best subclass.

[Naanomi]

The transmuter is the weakest subclass? Really? That's the one that appeals to me the most. I've always thought it was the best subclass.
Transmuter’s Stone and Master Transmuter, though not flashy, are both very unique compared to what other wizards can pull off; and really are at the core of the subclass. I played one to mid levels and had lots of fun

I like how the Hobgoblin bonuses line up with and stack well with the War Wizard abilities... just seems to be the right fit on a few levels

[Chugger]

Forgetting the "it's incoherent" complaint for a moment (which might have some merit), let's look at what they get first - a +5 to initiative at lvl 8 (w/ point buy and 2 int-boost asi's, like you'd typically see in AL). I assume this stacks with Dex and Alert, which is a +13 to init? The way a lot of module fights start, almost always going first as an AoE or area-control caster is pretty amazing in an of itself, especially in AL.

Trying to get players to coordinate in AL is like herding cats, and an area-caster going mid-to-last is a bummer - you got players intermingled with badguys - or the once-bunched badguys spread out (not all DMs start them bunched but many do where I play). Well, I don't think there's any disagreement that this ability is strong - silly-strong for a dip, too - but would be strong for a war wiz to 20. Especially in AL. If I took War Wiz in AL it might be mostly for this, to pair with other init boosting stuff (I may be exaggerating here, though), and the rest I'd use if it made sense.

The other lvl 2 thing is Arc. Deflection, which is not stunning but has scads of utility. The +2 to ac is silly if you can cast shield (because you can only cast cantrips after it - or drink potion - or disengage and re-position - or w/e). The +2 to ac is silly if you can't cast shield but you're being hit by a short sword or a claw that does low damage like 1d6+2 (unless you don't need to cast a lvl one spell or higher next turn). It makes sense in the rare situation where something is barely hitting you for a lot of damage and you can't or don't want to cast shield - so when that happens this is very handy. It's the +4 to important saves that seems to shine here, though the price for it - no lvl 1 spells or higher til the end of next turn ... meh, I'll admit that this weakens this ability - unless you end up saving vs mind control that would've had you cast fireball on your own team - or something truly bad. The weakness is that you can't save and then return the next turn with a hard-hitting spell - and maybe you can't use a reaction (to cast a lvl one or up spell), which could really stink (you need to cast counterspell to stop a really bad effect and to recharge, but you apparently can't). So Arc. Deflection has a few spots where it will really shine and some where it will help but hurt. Oh, Shield lasts if you cast it, but arc defl is for one attack - which is a problem when this happens: say you use it against something doing 12 damage and block it (cuz it only barely hit you, hey why not save the spell slot) - then the next monster comes over and and it's a ghoul that barely hits you (but you've burned your reaction, too bad for you) - and you blow your save - and now you're paralyzed. So this ability is going to, at some point, be misused or mistimed in a way that hurts - or surely could. I see it mostly as a good ST boost when you really need to save and that +4 is meaningful. Maybe that's a lot bigger than I'm seeing right now.

Power Surge - at first I thought this would add force damage to everyone caught in a fireball, which would be okay - but it says "one creature" and to "that target". I assume that means my fireball goes off on four monsters but I can only pick one that the power surge zaps, which is a lot of book-keeping for 4 measly points of damage at lvl 8. If that's really how this works - if I'm getting this right - it's really sad.

Durable Magic helps you maintain concentration on a spell and seems to stack with A. Def. - a plus six to that ST. This is not at all bad. Could save you.

Deflecting Shroud is okay - 21 total extra damage at 14 - 30 total extra damage at lvl 20 - but again is not crazy good. Not excited about this.

So yeah, except for a dip I think I'd be unhappy playing this build. I'd be hoping for a combat event where my abilities would shine but often getting ones where using them is good but comes with a big price. Or I'm having to keep track of even more numbers and do a piddling amount of extra damage. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not the 2 lvl 2 abilities and the Durable Magic would make this subclass worth it - there would be modules and situations in AL where maybe it would. I'd just have to be careful about making the "wrong calls" discussed above.

The other complaint, that it's thematically incoherent, is a subjective call - I can see that argument - I can see people going the other way - not much point in arguing that. Beauty's in the eye of Xanathar, after all!

[TheBaron]

I like the War Wizard, it offers a way to play a slightly harder to hit Wizard. From my experience, the best way to live as a caster is to just not get hit, which the War Wizard can do fairly well. I also like the idea of reliably being able to go first and throw out a control spell like Hypnotic Pattern or Dispel magic (If need be) and getting the Level 10 ability off the bat seems fun. A level 10 War Wizard with a Concentration spell up and Mage Armor is AC 15, 17 if you use Arcane Deflection, before dex. There's a ton of useful cantrips, so depending on the concentrated spell, being forced to just use cantrips isn't that big of a drawback. I'll agree that the level 6 ability is rather... unexceptional, but the class doesn't seem as poorly put together as people are making it out to be.

But what do I know, I'm just a filthy casual

[Darth_Versity]

But what do I know, I'm just a filthy casual

I too, good sir, am a filthy casual. Which is why I am so disappointed with the War Wizard. I don't want "Here's a passive initiative boost. Here's a boring action and save boost." I want something interesting. Something with a bit more panache.

Anyone can make their ac and saves better with the use of spells or feats or the countless other ways to do it. Changing Illusions that have already been cast? That's unique. Opening a hole in your Fireball to avoid allies while increasing damage to enemies? That's difficult. Creating a damage absorbing barrier which you can throw over your allies as they're hit? That's impressive.

The best part is that while remaining impressive, useful and, most importantly, fun, these abilities don't interfere with the other interactions of the class. They either work in harmony or separately, but never in opposition. The War Wizard doesn't.

On top of that is the concept. For me, the War Weaver from 3.5 was the epitome of the war wizard concept. A single person, no matter how strong, could not win a war. So war wizards (weavers) took many people and made them stronger through buffs to fight as a unit. Something like that would have been much better. Maybe an ability to concentrate on two buffs at once, but at the cost of only casting cantrips. Or maybe harder concentration checks. That would be both useful and interesting. Something no one else can do.

The war wizard, as it stands, is more like an arcane duelist than someone who goes to war. It offers no team based benefits, yet being at war is the one time that you can guarantee you won't be alone.

[Throne12]

First war wizards are not front liner wizards. War wizard is a school of Wizardtry that is trained for soldiers. In war battles get dragged out for long periods of time. A Adjuraer's ward runs out quickly Especially when your using it to protect allies. Also a Adjuraer will burn throught there spells a lot quicker to keep themself and allies protected. With burning slots to cast shield, absorb elements, protect from good or evil, protect from energy, counterspell, dispel magic, banishment,Globe of invulnerability. A Adjuraer's job is to protect.

A war wizards job is to be a soldier and there abilities show in helping then in a long drawn out conflict. There +2 to AC is a free buff with a small Condition you just can't cast a 1st level or higher spell next turn ok I can still cast a cantrip or any other action. Yes it only for one attack but you shouldn't be taking a lot of hits being in the back lines. The +4 to a saving throw is a big big help maybe you need to keep your Concentration on a spell or maybe you need to pass that save because if you don't your Paralyze, petrified, Dead, or just taken out of the fight.

[Jerrykhor]

Yeah I'm disappointed with the Power Surge nerf too. The UA version was a 2 damage dice bonus to spells that hit multiple people. Now its just half wizard level of damage, and seems to be just a single creature.

Whats the idea here? Why would a war wizard be concerned of dealing a tiny bit more damage to one guy? I'm not seeing the specialist role here. IMO, what a wizard on the battlefield truly needs is fireballs with bigger radius. The standard 20ft radius might be quite big in a skirmish, but on the battlefield, its tiny.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Yeah I'm disappointed with the Power Surge nerf too. The UA version was a 2 damage dice bonus to spells that hit multiple people. Now its just half wizard level of damage, and seems to be just a single creature.

Whats the idea here? Why would a war wizard be concerned of dealing a tiny bit more damage to one guy? I'm not seeing the specialist role here. IMO, what a wizard on the battlefield truly needs is fireballs with bigger radius. The standard 20ft radius might be quite big in a skirmish, but on the battlefield, its tiny.
In 3x I was absolutely obsessed with the idea of building and using my own army in large scale conflicts, something I occasionally had the pleasure of finding DM's willing to accommodate my epic warfare fetish.

The wizards that I used in my armies were always built for wide scale applications of offensive/defensive magic, usually to support front lines in either pressing advantages or stopping enemy advances while I re positioned my troops. Anything built to fight precisely one thing at a time would've meant I lost any conflict against larger forces than my own, and they synergized poorly with the other units.

At a glance, the same is likely true in 5e, though there are fewer large scale spells in general and magic artillery is a lot more viable than it was in 3x. I'd likely use wizards like mobile weapons platforms to bust tough ranks, especially heavy infantry, alongside plentiful wall spells exactly like I did back then. They're a ton more vulnerable to cavalry charges, so I doubt I could mass them without an armored division of their own. Probably keep them mounted. Likely use a whole lot less of them in general.

TL;DR: Yeah, larger area of effect would be much better on a battlefield than a tiny sliver of extra damage to one guy per spell. Especially when using them as bunker busters.

[LordEntrails]

So I have some scans of the new class options and spells from Xanathar's guide as we'll be starting a campaign before it's released ...
Um, it was already released when you made this post. So unless you are going to time travel you won't be starting a new campaign before it's out *G*

Check any of the WPN stores or outlets for it if you want to buy it before it's released on Amazon, they get it two weeks prior to general release. Unless you use FG, you won't want to buy it here, but here's one example; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.xcp?id=WOTC5EXGTE