What’s the CR for a Skaveling Mount?

[Palanan]

The Inner Sea Monster Codex includes stats for a Skaveling Mount, which is an undead mobat ridden by an urdefhan cavalier.

I’d like to use this creature on its own, separated from its rider, but I’m not sure what the CR would be. Bestiary 2 has stats for mobats and their undead variant, but those stats don’t correspond to the Skaveling Mount. Is there a way to estimate the CR for this creature? Or does it revert to being an ordinary ghoul bat without its rider?

[rs2excelsior]

The Monster Creation (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCreation.html) rules have guidelines for the stats of monsters you create from scratch; shouldn't be hard to look at its stats use those guidelines to estimate its CR.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by rs2excelsior
…shouldn't be hard to look at its stats use those guidelines to estimate its CR.

Honestly, I wouldn’t know where to start. It takes a practiced eye to do that, and I have no instinct for CR.

I’m hoping that someone who does have that knack can eyeball the CR, or explain why the Skaveling Mount has different stats than its source creature(s). Right now I’m just perplexed.

[rs2excelsior]

I wouldn't say I've got a practiced eye, particularly, but I should be able to give a ballpark at least. What are the creature's stats?

[Yanisa]

I wouldn't say I've got a practiced eye, particularly, but I should be able to give a ballpark at least. What are the creature's stats?

The Skaveling Mount (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skaveling%20Rider) is here, second creature.

Its modified by the fact it's an cavalier mount (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Companion) & the Skaveling companion feat (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skaveling%20Companion). Some changes seem arbitrary, like the base strength goes from 21 to 23 between base creature and feat. Then it gets 2 more from being an 7th level companion, ending at 25 strength.
Here's the normal Skaveling (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Skaveling) for reference.

In the end the big difference is the loss of special abilities (disease and paralysis), Flyby attack and HD. But in return the mount has higher AC. I would guesstimate the mounts CR between 3 and 4. Because of the losses I want to peg it CR 3, but the stats alone are more in line with CR 4 and it still has some trick up it sleeves (stealth, screech, flying charge).

[rs2excelsior]

HP: CR 4
AC: CR 9 (!) (Also this is with a +2 armor bonus, presumably from gear it was given by its rider; taking that out you get AC 21, appropriate for a CR 8)
Attack bonus: CR 5
Avg. Damage: CR 4
Screech DC: CR 4-5 (or CR 12-13 if it counts as secondary, which I doubt given how useful it seems; also from my experience throwing a DC 15 ability onto a CR 12 creature would probably be pretty useless against the kind of party that would fight them most of the time)
Saves: CR 4 for the good saves (Ref and Will), 5 for the poor save (Fort)

Based on hit dice and creature type: a 6 HD undead should come out to about CR 4-5
Strength is higher than base Str for a large creature, and Dex is MUCH higher. Charisma is right at the base Con (since undead use Cha for HP instead of Con).

Overall it looks like this creature would fall at CR 4 or 5. I'd probably set it to CR 4 overall, but keep in mind it'd be an extremely tanky CR 4--even removing its armor bonus, that 21 AC could give problems. That said, I don't think it's outside of the range that should be reasonable (and honestly I think the AC guidelines might be a bit overestimating things).

The question is, what do you want from this creature? i.e. why do you want to use the skaveling mount and not the regular skaveling? You get better strength and dex, and much better AC, at the cost of fewer HP, worse saves, lower save DC on screech, and loss of disease, paralysis, and blindsense. You also gain 10ft reach for some reason. If you want to edit the difficulty of the skaveling, you can do so without switching the statblock; edit its ability scores, HD, or save DCs as you need to.

[Yanisa]

Based on hit dice and creature type: a 6 HD undead should come out to about CR 4-5
Strength is higher than base Str for a large creature, and Dex is MUCH higher. Charisma is right at the base Con (since undead use Cha for HP instead of Con).

Overall it looks like this creature would fall at CR 4 or 5. I'd probably set it to CR 4 overall, but keep in mind it'd be an extremely tanky CR 4--even removing its armor bonus, that 21 AC could give problems. That said, I don't think it's outside of the range that should be reasonable (and honestly I think the AC guidelines might be a bit overestimating things).

If you compare it just to the wild Skaveling, which is CR 5*, it looses so much and only has 4 (2 without barding) more AC. Even the extra strength doesn't increase attack (less HD) or damage (no 1.5x multiplier) plus no paralysis either. The mounted version is more tanky then the wild creature but posses a far lesser threat. If you can get around that AC there is not a lot left to be afraid off. I wouldn't judge this critter by it's ability scores alone.

*Then again, the wild Skaveling might be a better fit at CR 6 then CR 5...

[rs2excelsior]

If you compare it just to the wild Skaveling, which is CR 5*, it looses so much and only has 4 (2 without barding) more AC. Even the extra strength doesn't increase attack (less HD) or damage (no 1.5x multiplier) plus no paralysis either. The mounted version is more tanky then the wild creature but posses a far lesser threat. If you can get around that AC there is not a lot left to be afraid off. I wouldn't judge this critter by it's ability scores alone.

*Then again, the wild Skaveling might be a better fit at CR 6 then CR 5...

That's fair, it does lose a lot. But at the same time, not just looking at ability scores, virtually all of the monster's stats (damage output, attack bonus, HP, hit dice) drop it firmly into a CR 4 rating. Those are all just guidelines, but I'd be hesitant to label it a CR 3. That's just my personal impression--CR is a bit fluid in general, it can be tough to nail down an exact rating (as we are demonstrating right now :smalltongue: )