Good Rogue Prestige Classes?

[GrayDeath]

Hi there!

After reading a few handbooks and always coming up with mix and matching them, which is sadly not allowed in our recent most game, I decided to ask:

Assuming I can only take one prestige class on one side of a gestalt character (the rogue side, the other one is fixed to Warblade 20) ina ddition to said sides base class :

Which one would you suggest, and why?

I have at least 2 levels/4 weeks until this is happening (we are at level 3 atm) , so take your time and write as much as you like.

Other info you might need: character is lawful evil and will stay so. Group is overall very stealthy, I am playing the main cc dd and skillmonkey.
Houseruled feat progression as in Pathfinder, drag mag is out, all srd or otherwise available first party as well as all complete, Tob and setting books are in, as long as the requirements are not tied to a too specific and important "local thingy".
Pure online sources are ina s long as they are first party publications.

Thank you all in advance. :)

Edit: Bolded for clarifications.

[ATHATH]

After reading a few handbooks and always coming up with mix and matching them, which is sadly not allowed in our recent most game
What does that mean? Are you trying to say that excessive dipping/multiclassing isn't allowed in your game?

[GrayDeath]

Seeing that I wrote exactly that a line below the quoted text, yes.

We are playing a limited gestalt rules set. One side is fixed to class a 20, the other side to one other class, at the outmost 2 if it is NECESSARY, and one prestige class.

I have built many a rogue with 4-5 classes that rocked, but am quite at a loss which prestige class to take under the abovementioned limitations.

[Zaq]

Do you have to complete said PrC, or are you allowed to take just part of it and then take the rest as Rogue and/or as other base classes (probably just as Rogue)?

It's not exactly something that's going to dazzle you with its unexpectedness, but Assassin actually isn't a terrible class overall. Death Attack is a seductive trap (don't use it except when it's really appropriate), but you get spells, the good kind of HiPS, and equivalent Sneak Attack to the same number of levels in Rogue, mostly at the cost of 4 skill points per level (versus Rogue). Doesn't cost any feats to enter, either, which is nice. You'll never have the slots to cast a spell every round, of course, but even the meager spells you get from Assassin do go a reasonable ways towards making you feel self-sufficient. If you feel like Assassin is too, well, everyday, there's two versions of "Psionic Assassins" (one in Secrets of Sarlona and one here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), though unfortunately the online one requires you to already be psionic for some reason), though there's certainly no guarantee that it's stronger than being a regular Assassin.

If you're allowed to dip into something with enough magic to get into Unseen Seer, that's always a fun class, but this might not be the kind of game for that.

[ViperMagnum357]

Do you have to be Lawful Evil? Many Rogue PRCs are non-Lawful, so that narrows things quite a bit. As for material-are you allowed to draw on non-updated 3.0, like Song and Silence?

If so, I might suggest Fang of Lolth, which is 3.0 but never updated/overlaid. It also requires non-Good, non-Lawful; I would suggest it because it provides 4 extra arms at level 9, and advances sneak attack +3d6 with 6+Int skills-a good fit for a martially inclined, skill monkey gestalt. The rest of the class is solid to mediocre, but a natural climb speed, +4 natural AC, and a few skill bonuses are good; the capstone turn you into a vermin with immunity to mind-influencing effects as (EX), if you want.

[Blue Jay]

I'm kind of fond of Scorpion Heritor from Sandstorm, though the fluff is pretty specific and maybe not what you're looking for. It's basically identical to a rogue, except it trades out the minor, off-level abilities for some scorpion-themed bonus feats and a little bit of shapeshifting; and it gets good Fort instead of Ref. It's not exactly an outstanding class, but it doesn't really give up any the rogue stuff you care about: it has the same skill list (plus Knowledge-nature and Survival) and still progresses Sneak Attack (on even levels instead of odd, though). It requires ranks in Survival though, so maybe that will be a limitation for you.

[GrayDeath]

Well, my fallback is Assassin, yeah. I was looking for other things...

No, unseen seer is out. At the very most some really minor casting, sadly.


Lolth does not exist in this setting, and yes, being lawful evil is a big part of the character. While it is possible that I'll move out of it, this will at the earliest happen late game.

That scorpion thing sounds interesting for our ranger later on, thanks :)


Oh, and no, I don't have to complete the prt, just keep to it and rogue (most likely, unless there is a really well fitting price for which I absolutely Need another class first).

Oh, and in case it's needed, the character is a Dark template warforged, so getting HiPS is not necessary :)

[ATHATH]

Is playing a Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) instead of a Rogue an option? If so, consider choosing Ebon Saint (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/psionic/ebon_saint.shtml) as your PrC.

[GrayDeath]

Sadly no, existing classes are fixed and retraining is 9ut (ebony saints are hellishly cool though :))

[ngilop]

GHost-Faced Killer, need to be evil, have a BaB of +6 and 6 ranksin hide and move silently as well as other requiremtns i am not remembering.

[ATHATH]

How about the Psibond Agent PrC? You only need one PP to enter it (and none of its class features use PP), so just pick up the Wild Talent feat (or something similar to it).

[GrayDeath]

@PbA: cool class, but far too subtle for this character.

@GfK: I didn't know that class, or at least didn't remember it. A wee bit too little skill support, but the overall concept fits quite well. I'll keep it in mind, thx.

[Nifft]

Are you by chance a Human or a Changeling?

If so, consider the Chameleon prestige class.

Other skilled peeps:
- Paragnositic Initiate
- Exemplar
- Hand of the Winged Masters

[ATHATH]

main cc dd
What do you mean by this?

[ATHATH]

Are you by chance a Human or a Changeling?

If so, consider the Chameleon prestige class.

Other skilled peeps:
- Paragnositic Initiate
- Exemplar
- Hand of the Winged Masters
Nope, he's a Warforged with the Dark template.

[GrayDeath]

CloseCombat DamageDealer.

Sorry, late, fighting off sleeplessness atm. Gah....

Also, the exemplar dies not advance sneak attack. The hand sounds immensely cool, but I have charisma 7....maybe I can talk to my DM about it, thanks for the ideas yall, keep EM coming!

[ATHATH]

Don't forget to pick up the Darkstalker and Craven feats.

[ATHATH]

Would Crinti Shadow Marauder (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/crintishadowm.shtml) or Telflammar Shadowlord (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/shadowlord.shtml) fit with your concept?

Being able to perform 3 full attacks per round (gotta love dat Shadow Pounce) is preeeeeeeeeeeetty good for your DPR.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take one level of Psion on the Rogue side, spend the bonus feat on Practiced Manifester, and get 5+ levels of Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d), namely for Mind Cripple. That allows you to deal 2 Int damage on every sneak attack, so a single TWF full attack should outright disable just about any bruiser type opponent regardless of their hp. Psychic Assassin gives half progression to two classes so it should be available on a gestalt character. Also note that the text says it advances your manifesting at the 5th level in addition to the even-numbered levels, so it's actually 6/10 manifesting. Assuming you max it out and go back to taking Rogue levels you'll get 4th level powers at a manifester level of 11th, so I'd go with Egoist and focus on buffs and utility.

[GrayDeath]

The Psionw ay wont fly in all liekliness, see "One class and one prestige class" limitation.

@ ATHATH: both dont lookm bad, but have hefty feat prereqs, which I`d prefer to avoid, my Gestalt build being feat starved as is anyway.

[daremetoidareyo]

There are skill taxes to it, but maybe the shadowsmith from tome of magic is for you. Consider the sleight of hand boost called quicker than the eye from this web article: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

Then look at the potion/poison making and epic ballad writing shenanigans, as put on display here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528361-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXVII/page3

[CharonsHelper]

If it weren't for the evil aspect of your character - a Daggerspell Mage would be perfect.

Go Rogue/Wizard and at 6-15 replace the "Wizard" half with Daggerspell Mage. You only lose 1 caster level and gain all sorts of extra goodies.

[ottdmk]

As you say most of the party is sneaky, have you considered Umbral Disciple? You'll need an Incarnum Feat to get in (I can recommend Indigo Strike if your Con is high enough) but it has some fun abilities, including Hide In Plain Sight at L3.

[DEMON]

a) Does it have to be a PrC?
b) I'm not sure if I read the allow books section right, so this might be off limits, but...

How about a Beguiler? Int-synergy, decent skill points, feinting-friendly (while this is a bad idea for a standard Beguiler a gestalt full-BAB+D12-Warblade-with-sneak-attack welcomes the added option), boosts your only weak save.

Spellcasting and metamagic feats never hurt anyone and the Beguiler's one fit in nicely for your concept.

As a side note, don't forget to grab some maneuvers/stances from the Swordsage list. Coupled with the Warblade recovery method, you're golden.

[Rebel7284]

Ur Priest is probably the best class, but sounds like it may be too heavy in casting for your needs.

I'll second Telflamar Shadowlord for some awesome abilities and multiple full attacks.

[Lazymancer]

Assuming I can only take one prestige class on one side of a gestalt character (the rogue side, the other one is fixed to Warblade 20) :
Which one would you suggest, and why?
Given that you are already Evil, I'd suggest going for Ur-Priest - it's always relevant and you can cast in armor.

The only question is if you manage to get into it. Not only you need to get Spellcraft and set two feats on fire (though, this is manageable - either via locations, or indirectly - by replacing Rogue sneak attacks with feats), there is also base Will requirement that you'll be able to satisfy quite late.

Alternatively, consider Binder. It's not prestige, but it should provide options your character might lack otherwise.

[GrayDeath]

If it weren't for the evil aspect of your character - a Daggerspell Mage would be perfect.

Go Rogue/Wizard and at 6-15 replace the "Wizard" half with Daggerspell Mage. You only lose 1 caster level and gain all sorts of extra goodies.

OK, while I appreciate every suggestion, please read the limitations: One class to the rogue, a prestige class at that (unless the taken class has a prestigyclassy focus AND I get lucky with the DM, so for now I`d like to avoid it, as planjing with something you will most likely not get is BAD).

The usual 4+ Class Optimization is out (and I would do better in that by myself, but I just realized I never once played a Rogue+Prestige, in like, ever....).




As you say most of the party is sneaky, have you considered Umbral Disciple? You'll need an Incarnum Feat to get in (I can recommend Indigo Strike if your Con is high enough) but it has some fun abilities, including Hide In Plain Sight at L3.

Hmm, my Constitution, thanks to being warforged, rocks. So that would not be bad, although, also in the OP, I already HAVE HiPS. Its in the Dark Template.



Given that you are already Evil, I'd suggest going for Ur-Priest - it's always relevant and you can cast in armor.

The only question is if you manage to get into it. Not only you need to get Spellcraft and set two feats on fire (though, this is manageable - either via locations, or indirectly - by replacing Rogue sneak attacks with feats), there is also base Will requirement that you'll be able to satisfy quite late.

Alternatively, consider Binder. It's not prestige, but it should provide options your character might lack otherwise.

Hmm, the FLuff and the Setting would fit it tremendously well, bit its far more caster heavy than I like/want (and given my abysmal Will Save I will likely not get in before Level 12+ any way).

Binder though, Binder sounds good, IF I get a non Prestige Class through.


@ Beguiler: same problem as with the Psion/Wizard Suggestions: Full Casters are out. Otherwise yes, that would be the class to remove any weaknesses from the combination, but well, who would want a Teflon Billy if one can have a real character....

(KIdding^^)


So far:

Telflammar Shadowlord or Binder seem the best fit.

Keep it coming, as I said, I have at least levels (ergo -4 Sessions) time.

[death390]

i would honestly recomend swordsage base class after you get what you want from rouge. especially if your dm would let you swing an arcane variant (beware it is not a fully fleshed out variant, but damn is it awsome)

[GrayDeath]

No ToB CLass Combinations are allowed, and no Homebrew/semifinsihed classes of any kind or type.

And I know that having all these maneuvres would be amazing (and plan on spending at least 4-5 of my feats for Sword Sage Maneuvres indeed, later on), but this is no open Optimazation" thread, but a find the coolest/most awesome rpestige class for this strictly limited Concept".

:smallcool:

[ExLibrisMortis]

You might consider War Mind. Lets you attack two adjacent spaces with each attack, and grants some psywar-style manifesting.

Scout 3 (or 4) with Swift Ambusher gets you full skirmish progression at the cost of two SA dice.

[Rebel7284]

given my abysmal Will Save I will likely not get in before Level 12+ any way).

Ur Priest only cares about base Will save. Therefore you automatically qualify at level 9 due to Warblade and can enter at 10. That is still a lot later than you want to enter for best utilization. Although if you are concerned about too much casting, delayed entry may just solve that too. :) If it's worth the wait certainly depends on how long you think the game will last.

[ShurikVch]

There is such thing as Tier System for PrCs (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0)
In "Marvelous Tier", we have Disciple of Dispater - how about it?
(Or Soul Eater - if you can qualify for it)

[GrayDeath]

Soul eater sounds eminently cheesy, and doesn't quite fit the feeling I am aiming for.

I had completely o erlooked disciple of dispatch. Need to check with my DM if he exists, if so that wouldn't be a bad choice, even if I lose quite some Sa.

[Thurbane]

Dark Lantern (FN, p.68) is decent: full SA progression, permanent nondetection, and Ex HiPS with no restrictions. Only drawback is 4 skill points/level.