craft (arms and armor) question. [Pathfinder]

[Draconi Redfir]

So granted i came up with these numbers awhile ago, so i /may/ have fudged them somewhere, but i'm trying to have two characters each craft an item, sending a take-twenty per week of crafting to get the maximum ammount of progress on it as possible and... even then it's taking forever.

Right now i'm trying to Make an admantine Trident, and i'm getting 819sp progress every week, when i need 15,150sp progress to complete it.

The Adamantine tower sheild i'm trying to make is taking 540sp per week, of a 25,300sp goal.

these numbers can't possibly be right could they? i'm only at best five thousand sp into either of these goals, and they take fifteen thousand or more. I have the materials, tools, and forge already, the only thing i'mn doing would be putting them all together. that would reduce the goal ammount wouldn't it?

Can someone with more experiance with craft (arms and armor) run the numbers for me and confirm/deny this? really feeling like this can't be right...

[thecrimsondawn]

So granted i came up with these numbers awhile ago, so i /may/ have fudged them somewhere, but i'm trying to have two characters each craft an item, sending a take-twenty per week of crafting to get the maximum ammount of progress on it as possible and... even then it's taking forever.

Right now i'm trying to Make an admantine Trident, and i'm getting 819sp progress every week, when i need 15,150sp progress to complete it.

The Adamantine tower sheild i'm trying to make is taking 540sp per week, of a 25,300sp goal.

these numbers can't possibly be right could they? i'm only at best five thousand sp into either of these goals, and they take fifteen thousand or more. I have the materials, tools, and forge already, the only thing i'mn doing would be putting them all together. that would reduce the goal ammount wouldn't it?

Can someone with more experiance with craft (arms and armor) run the numbers for me and confirm/deny this? really feeling like this can't be right...

Ya, the non magic crafting system is kinda BS. You can get around the magic item crafting with some neat tricks, but there have been plenty guides with a simple google search all not too happy about this. Understand tho that working with a super rare metal that only the best can work with is what is driving up the time to insane amounts. Even a normal full plate can take a couple weeks to make tho.
I would also like to point out that taking 20 is not a good idea in this regard as taking 20 is "failing until you succeed". This would mean you would end up wasting a TON of raw materials for every failed attempt, so taking 10 with a whole lot of aid another checks is what you want :p

I think I saw a guide that someone made who was focused around crafting mundane items and came up with a sore in the very low 100s as the most you can get. Ill see if I can find it for you

[death390]

take 20 cant be done on a craft skill. due to risk of failure destroying the item. take 10 could though.

adamantine trident is DC 15. 30150 silver (15g and 3000 for adamanitne) at 1/3 cost for materials 10050s to make (1005g). (gold is 10x silver is 10x copper). asuming that you do roll 20 on each time (or have a nice GM) and you didn't say what your skill modifier is so ill go with a 5 (4 lvl 1, 12 int), leading you onto a 25 total result. 15*25= 375s per week. (if your getting 800s you must have a massive bonus and/or increasing DC by several 10s). this would be done in about half a year (26.8 weeks).

DC 25 * 25 = 625s per week: 16.08 weeks.
DC 35 *35 = 1225s per week: 8.3 weeks.
DC 45*45 = 2025s per week: just under 5 weeks.

THEN you have the masterwork material (it is separate) 300g DC 20. 1000s to make (100g). takes alot less. could be done in 2 weeks at DC 20 (25 result), or 1 week on DC 40 result. (DC+10 to standard dc to make an item no less)

[Draconi Redfir]

... How the heck did i get to 15,150sp for an adamantine trident then?

think i divided the adamantine cost by two before adding in the 15 from the trident or something. 10,050sp is significantyly cheaper though

Edit; what would be the price of an adamantine tower sheild then? assuming it could count as either heavy or medium armor and not a weapon.

[death390]

you did 1/2 cost, that is for magic items. mundane is 1/3.

[death390]

adamantine tower sheild is 2000 for adamantine, +30g for the shield itself. 2030g total. 1/3 cost for 6766.6s to make.
base DC is 10 + AC bonus (14). masterwork DC 20 for 150g (the masterwork cost is folded into adamantine btw so the component is only a time sink not cost).

btw this a a good general index for the skill: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

so depending of your result (and how high you boost the DC) you could be done in about 2/3 the time as your trident. 4 weeks for DC 44* result 44. if possible.

EDIT: if you can post your skill bonus for your rolls that would be great.

[Draconi Redfir]

the heck? the tower sheild takes less then the trident? o.0

and okya. For the trident, the guy making it has a craft of 19, leading to 39 on a take 20.

For the Tower sheild, the crafter has a craft of +7, leading to a 27 with a take 20.

just a couple hours ago the DM told me i could bump up the DC of the craft checks by five in order to make progress go faster, Making progress on the Trident go up to 1014sp per week, and progress on the tower sheild go up to 675sp per week.

For the sheild's DC, i think what i did was
Sheid: 10+AC (14)
Then down most of the page in Table: Special Materials modifiers, it shows working with adamantine increases the DC by +6, leading to a DC of 20. 25 with the "add +5 DC to work faster" thing.

where does it say that making an adamantine tower sheild adds two thousand GP? i've only seen GP costs for armor weapons and ammunition, so i think i was using the cost of one of the armor types in it's place.

[death390]

i was using http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Adamantine for the adamantine costs and such. i don't remember seeing a DC increase but ill check the DMG quick. i didn't find a DC increase in DMG. where did you find a +6 increase to DC? what book/resource.

Also you can't take 20 with craft checks. take 10 at max. due to the fact you can't take 20 when failure causes a signifigant problem, and you lose more cash when you badly fail a craft check (not to mention take 20 takes 20x the time. so even if could take 20 it would be 20 weeks per check)

[Draconi Redfir]

Craft page, down near the bottom, "DC modifiers" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/craft/)


and i dunno. my DM is letting me take 20. Way i see it it's not "trying until i fail" it's "taking as long as possible to make sure i DON'T fail."

And that D&D wiki is for 3.5... FRIG! i never listed this as being for pathinfdder!

[death390]

ah that makes a difference. pathfinder tweaked several skills heavily. adding a DC modifier is not necessarily bad for difficult materials. however you have drifted to far down the page. if you notice your actualy in the variant rules section. its part of the Making crafting work alternate rule set. everything base listed for craft feat above unchained crafting is standard crafting rules, and unchained crafting and below are all rule variants.

if you click on the adamantine link and read its listing it doesn't have a increased DC listed. this is because your in the variant section. and looking at adamantines table it is nearly perfect reflection of that srd 3.5 one so it probably is still 2k for the shield increase.

now adding 10 to the DC to speed up crafting is in the base section under Other SPecial situations and modifiers right above unchained crafting. so the DC is still 14 for the shield and 15 for the trident. (i suggest +10 to speed up)

so at best with your crafting modifiers you can:
DC 35 for the trident and auto succeed using your DM's take 20 rules. 35*39 = 1365s per week. done in 7.3 (round up to 8) weeks. IF he allows you not to increase the time taken, standard take 20 takes 20 times as long. so that 8 weeks would take 160 weeks if that is the case. if you do take 10 (which you can do standard) then 25*29= 725s then you would be done in 14 weeks. then the masterwork component 1000s value (rolled up in adamantine) DC 20 (30 with +10 speed up) *39 for auto sucess = done in 1 week (or 20 if standard take 20 time increase).

for the shield for a cost of 6766.6s DC 24*27= 648s per week, done in 10.4 weekd (round up to 11), and if take 20 standard time sink is on then 220 weeks. masterwork component 500s value (cost part of adamantine) dc 20 *27 auto sucess done in 1 week (or 20 if standard take 20 time increase)

TL:DR you are looking in variant rules section for part of that.
total cost
adamantine trident: 1005g
adamantine tower sheild: 676.66g

total time cost IF standard take 20 enlongated timer is active.
trident: 180 weeks
tower sheild: 240 weeks

total time if takes basic crafting time (no increased by take 20)
trident: 9 weeks
tower shield: 21 weeks

sorry i didn't know you were using pathfinder, i am proficcient with that as well just use 3.5 more.

[death390]

pathfinder skills page under taking 20 2nd paragraph.

"Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform)."

this might dissuade you if your DM enforces it. if so take 10 it takes slightly longer but not by too much (12/7 times as long AKA 1.7 times as long)

about 16 weeks for trident.
~36 weeks for shield.

[Psyren]

I recommend showing your GM the "Alternate Crafting" rules from Unchained, found here. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/craftingAndProfession.html) The goal of these rules is to make crafting simpler and faster, as stated here:


While the rules for crafting in the Core Rulebook are perfectly suitable for the needs of most campaigns, they can sometimes be cumbersome to use. Those rules assume that a character spends a full week crafting an item. They also involve complex multiplication to determine the degree of success and speed with which the item can be crafted. Not only are these rules significantly different from those for other skill checks, but they can slow down play at the table and give rise to strange circumstances where it takes an unreasonably long time to create relatively simple items that happen to have a high gold piece cost. Furthermore, while the system features rules for attempting daily checks, these rules can be cumbersome for players.

[Draconi Redfir]

i'm not too concerned about DC or take-twenty rules (though i suppose higher DC = more progress per week) as it's been made clear by my DM that "take 20 = "Take as long as you need to not make any mistakes" rather then "fail until you succeed."

Right now i'm just trying to figure out how the math works for the end goal. so i'm going to try and run through this, let me know how i can fill in the blanks/ where i mess up.

Adamantine Trident: x10 to all gp prices to convert to sp. Trident: 150sp, + Adamantine (weapon) 30,000sp = 30,150sp. % 3 = 10,050sp.

Adamantine Tower Shield: x10 to all gp prices to convert to sp. Shield: 300sp. +Adamantine (??? there is no list for "Shield") (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/special-materials#TOC-Adamantine) ??? assuming it must be an armor type, 50,000 for "light"armor? = 50,300sp, % 3 = 16,766sp ???

Edit: As @V points out: if it's not in pathfinder, use 3.5 rules. Ergo:

Adamantine Tower Sheild: X10 to all prices to convert to sp. Shield: 300sp. +Adamantine (Shield) 20,000sp = 20300sp. % 3 = 6,766sp

i'll try and figure out the DC for these things later, but for right now at least i JUST want to figure out what the end-price is, then we'll figure out how far I've gotten on them after seven weeks of progress. (only picking up masterwork tools on the 3rd week.)

[death390]

ah pathfinder has a similar rule about 3.5 that 3.5 had about 3.0 if it is unlisted in pathfinder and was in 3.5 use 3.5. so since shield value for adamantineis unlisted you use 3.5's that means 2k gold or 20,000sp.

other than that the numbers is see are correct.

[Draconi Redfir]

nnkay. just a matter of figuring out the DC then as it affects how much progress i make, so i might not be as close as i think i am now.

Trident: From Table: Craft Skill's and DC's, a Trident is a martial melee weapon, so 15 DC. Add in my DM's +5DC to fast-build (no idea where he got that from) for DC20.

Aaaand... since i don't go down below "unchained crafting" that would be it? the DC for the shield would be 19? (10+AC bonus, +5)

then i multiply the DC by the result for the SP cost. Soo... 20 x 39 = 780sp/week,

and then 19x27 =515sp/week?

Dang, lost less then what i was making before. Suppose the goal is lower, so it balances out.

[Psyren]

ah pathfinder has a similar rule about 3.5 that 3.5 had about 3.0 if it is unlisted in pathfinder and was in 3.5 use 3.5.

That's not actually a rule, just a good guideline.

[death390]

the answer to both those DC's is yes those are correct. as for the +5 that is just a saner version than what is already there. the original version has it as +10, +5 is easier to use overall. generally that can stack for further increased fast build.

and i thought that the rule was written somewhere. hmm meh, most people use 3.5 material often enough it shouldn't matter unless the ported material is DM banned.

[Ashtagon]

By RAW, take 20 takes 20x as long as a standard rolled skill check. That is, to accomplish a week's worth of work with a take 20 check will actually take 20 game weeks.