Paladin build inquiry

[Pjohnnyko]

So I'm a brand new D&D player with a new DM having a blast but I'm trying to optimize my character from this point on. My Paladin is Lvl 3, took Oath of the Ancients because Devotion to me sounded too cookie-cutter/boring and my character wouldn't go vengence no matter how cool it sounded. Took the protection fighting style as well. I'm about to hit lvl 4 and I know I need to up my stats and I want advice on what to do and in what order and what feats if any should I take and when? I know I made some mistakes but I still love my character. Assume we take this group to lvl 20 because I think we will.
My stats
Str 16
Dex 11
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 15

Where do I go from here?

[Hyde]

So I'm a brand new D&D player with a new DM having a blast but I'm trying to optimize my character from this point on. My Paladin is Lvl 3, took Oath of the Ancients because Devotion to me sounded too cookie-cutter/boring and my character wouldn't go vengence no matter how cool it sounded. Took the protection fighting style as well. I'm about to hit lvl 4 and I know I need to up my stats and I want advice on what to do and in what order and what feats if any should I take and when? I know I made some mistakes but I still love my character. Assume we take this group to lvl 20 because I think we will.
My stats
Str 16
Dex 11
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 15

Where do I go from here?

It's going to depend on your role in combat. There are a handful of guides you can check out.

For general paladin fun, This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375696-Good-is-Not-Nice-A-Paladin-s-Guide) seems pretty on the money.

For a very specific take on a very interesting multiclass (which you may still be able to pull off with Ancients) Take a look at the Sorcadin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass).

[Nidgit]

It's hard to say too much without knowing the rest of your party composition, but...

Taking the Protection fighting style into account, you seem like you're working as party tank. As such, Sorcadin, while still extremely good, might not be exactly what you're looking for.

A HexBlade dip would allow you to focus Charisma and spend the remaining ASI(s) on feats like Shield Master and Sentinel to up your defensive support. Eldritch Blast gives you some much needed range too. You'd only need a level or two in it to be excellent, still allowing you to get that lovely 30 ft aura boost at Paladin 18.

A Fighter dip is always great for Paladins. You don't need Second Wind, but a second Fighting Style (Dueling), Action Surge, and potentially maneuvers or increased crits all mesh great with your role.

Also possible could I suppose be a War Cleric dip, for extra smiting potential and increased support. You could go as many levels of that as you'd want, though it would admittedly make you more MAD.

If you're sticking with an Ancients single class, I'd personally suggest upping STR at 4, CHA + WIS/DEX at 8, Shield Master at 12, STR at 16, and CHA at 19. Sentinel is really worth considering though because of how sticky it makes you.

[agnos]

While dipping to Sorceror 5-6 would be great, I’d recommend grabbing Barbarian Ancestral Guardian (from Xanathar’s) for 3-4 levels after you get your Pally aura at 7. You’ll be tight on ASI’s because at 4 you should up Str; and going Barb means dropping to medium armor (and wanting Dex to 14 to maximize on that). Stat wise, you’re better off going Sorceror because at 8 you can get +1 to wis/cha. I’m guessing you’re standard human (+1 to all stats) with a normal array. But making your nearby team resist basically all damage is super sweet.

[Foxhound438]

My recommendation is to up charisma, whatever you do. Depending on your race, there might be a race feat available in Xanathar's for you that can give you +1 charisma plus a good bit of utility. For example, if you're a dragonborn, the feat Dragon Fear can do a lot for you.

past that, pure paladin is never bad. There's a lot of good multiclass advice upthread from here, but I personally don't usually multiclass paladins, especially if I do expect to play all the way to 20. The ancients capstone is particularly good, after all.

[Pjohnnyko]

Thank you all for the advice. I am a regular Human Paladin and with a rogue, cleric, bard and flaky ranger (she may quit our group due to other commitments) I am definitely the tank. I read a lot about Sorcadins and other possible multiclass Paladins and while they piqued my interest I am not sold on multiclassing just yet. We shall see. I definitely need to deal some damage too especially if our ranger quits.

Any other thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated and I thank you for what you have shown me thus far.

My DM is a good long time friend and is pretty easy going, he may let me make some changes. What changes would you make if you could?

[JellyPooga]

I'm looking at four odd stats and wondering why. If it's because you rolled stats, all well and good; your first order of business will be to even those out, starting with Charisma and Wisdom. Getting Dex to 12 and Int to 10 isn't a priority, but would be nice if you can afford it (or do it with half feats somehow). If you point-bought those stats...well, the first thing you want to request off your GM is to do some shuffling to avoid all that redundancy.

[Nidgit]

I'm looking at four odd stats and wondering why. If it's because you rolled stats, all well and good; your first order of business will be to even those out, starting with Charisma and Wisdom. Getting Dex to 12 and Int to 10 isn't a priority, but would be nice if you can afford it (or do it with half feats somehow). If you point-bought those stats...well, the first thing you want to request off your GM is to do some shuffling to avoid all that redundancy.

He's regular human, which means it was a standard array.

If you can make one change, retroactively become a variant human instead of a regular one. All your points are in the right stats, so just retroactively drop to 16 STR/14 CON/14 CHA and pick up a feat instead. If your rogue is melee, they'll love you forever for taking Shield Master and giving them constant Sneak Attacks with advantage. Plenty of other feats can be good too.

Another good change to try would be to swap out any Oath spell you don't care for for something both thematic and more fun. In the same vein, trading the Ancients Paladin's awful CD Entangle ability for the Nature Cleric's Charm Animals and Plants would be great too.

[Pjohnnyko]

He's regular human, which means it was a standard array.

If you can make one change, retroactively become a variant human instead of a regular one. All your points are in the right stats, so just retroactively drop to 16 STR/14 CON/14 CHA and pick up a feat instead. If your rogue is melee, they'll love you forever for taking Shield Master and giving them constant Sneak Attacks with advantage. Plenty of other feats can be good too.

Another good change to try would be to swap out any Oath spell you don't care for for something both thematic and more fun. In the same vein, trading the Ancients Paladin's awful CD Entangle ability for the Nature Cleric's Charm Animals and Plants would be great too.

I know my stats are wonky, my rolling has always been fair to poor my whole life in gaming so I never dared to roll stats.

Also, I didn't know more than the little I was told during character creation. I read about variant human after the fact and more after reading your comment. I definitely see how it's better now.

My rogue is going Arcane trickster, whatever that means. I know he's got some spells and uses his bow a fair amount but he also uses his short sword and dagger. I'm sure I'm
showing my newbie colors. Haha, I barely know my class in and out let alone his.

Any further suggestions with this new information? Like what stats and feats to take if I can change to variant?

[Foxhound438]

Any further suggestions with this new information? Like what stats and feats to take if I can change to variant?

Inspiring leader is a truly amazing feat for any charisma based character, though it's really not good in multiples. If no one else takes this, definitely take it, but if someone else does then leave it to them.

mage slayer can be pretty good, depending on how many spellcasters your DM throws at you, especially on an ancients paladin

polearm master is really good, if you can get your DM to let you swap out your fighting style for great weapon or defense (or if you want you can one handedly spin a quarterstaff like an absolute mad man, but some people are inexplicably opposed to that being allowed)

shield master can be pretty good if you have other melee based allies, as others said. Remember if you take this that technically you can take the attack action and before actually doing the attacks make the bonus action shove to knock the target prone, gaining advantage on your own attacks.

war caster can be pretty good on paladins later, assuming you use concentration spells.

edit: add sentinel. Not sure just how squishy the other characters in your party are built, but if they are on the low-HP end of things sentinel is a nice feat to have.

[Galadhrim]

I know my stats are wonky, my rolling has always been fair to poor my whole life in gaming so I never dared to roll stats.

Any further suggestions with this new information? Like what stats and feats to take if I can change to variant?

If you can redo your stats and take Variant Human standard array or point buy your core stats won't change and you get the feat.

You could buy: 15, 15, 14, 10, 8, 8 to finish with 16, 8, 14, 8, 10, 16 or take standard array and end with 16, 10, 14, 8, 12, 14. Either of those works out much better than where you are now and you get the feat on top.

for V. Human feat choice, I would think about what fits your character best between shield master, inspiring leader, or pole arm master. If you are going to continue to Tank, the first two are both excellent. If you need to add damage because the ranger is leaving, then go with pole arm master.

Personally I took Inspiring leader when I had this choice but that was because my character thinks of himself as a leader type and RP wise was trying to become a Baron. It is a feat that is more powerful if you take more short rests.

Moving to your level 4 ability score increase, what feat you choose from V. Human I think will inform this choice also. Again, leading back to what role you want to play over all.
If you take shield master or Pole Arm Master, +2 to str makes the most sense (make sure you have athletics proficiency). If you take Inspiring Leader, you might lean more toward +2 Cha for more temp HP for the whole party and an improved Aura at level 6. I don't think you will go wrong with either choice.

[Nidgit]

Arcane Trickster adds limited spellcasting and adds versatility to Mage Hand. Eventually the rogue will be able to create their own Sneak Attacks without needing your help as much. That might devalue Shield Master some eventually, but at worst you'd still be giving yourself advantage on attacks and boosting your chances of crit-smites.

[Pjohnnyko]

If you can redo your stats and take Variant Human standard array or point buy your core stats won't change and you get the feat.

You could buy: 15, 15, 14, 10, 8, 8 to finish with 16, 8, 14, 8, 10, 16 or take standard array and end with 16, 10, 14, 8, 12, 14. Either of those works out much better than where you are now and you get the feat on top.

for V. Human feat choice, I would think about what fits your character best between shield master, inspiring leader, or pole arm master. If you are going to continue to Tank, the first two are both excellent. If you need to add damage because the ranger is leaving, then go with pole arm master.


Moving to your level 4 ability score increase, what feat you choose from V. Human I think will inform this choice also. Again, leading back to what role you want to play over all.
If you take shield master or Pole Arm Master, +2 to str makes the most sense (make sure you have athletics proficiency). If you take Inspiring Leader, you might lean more toward +2 Cha for more temp HP for the whole party and an improved Aura at level 6. I don't think you will go wrong with either choice.

I think he's going to let me make the changes!
Would point buying with more Con be beneficial as I am the main tank? So
16, 8, 16, 8, 10, 14?? And I'm thinking shield master for my rogue buddy and I. We have been the main damage dealers. And then at lvl 4 I can get Str or Cha up. I definitely want to take inspiring leader at some point but not yet, I think my character needs to grow into that a bit more, maybe lvl 8 or 12. What do you guys think?

And will the protection fighting style be detrimental to optimizing my build. It uses my reaction, not my regular action or bonus action as I understand but what else that would be beneficial to keeping me or my party alive uses a reaction?

[Galadhrim]

I think he's going to let me make the changes!
Would point buying with more Con be beneficial as I am the main tank? So
16, 8, 16, 8, 10, 14?? And I'm thinking shield master for my rogue buddy and I. We have been the main damage dealers. And then at lvl 4 I can get Str or Cha up. I definitely want to take inspiring leader at some point but not yet, I think my character needs to grow into that a bit more, maybe lvl 8 or 12. What do you guys think?

And will the protection fighting style be detrimental to optimizing my build. It uses my reaction, not my regular action or bonus action as I understand but what else that would be beneficial to keeping me or my party alive uses a reaction?

You have to use your reaction to gain to take no damage from a dex save that you would have taken half damage from (third part of shield master). You also need your reaction to threaten opportunity attacks to keep monsters stuck to you instead of targeting those you are trying to protect. That is about it, meaning most rounds you probably won't use your reaction depending on how your DM plays. Protection is a fun style because it gives you something active to do, but overall it probably is not as strong as defense or dueling. It would make you a shield expert though, since you are already a shield master and you are using it to protect others as well. Might be a fun part of the character.

as for con vs. cha, really that is up to you. Keep in mind that your aura at level 6 is based on your cha and it is one of your strongest features.

[Nidgit]

Protection isn't detrimental per se, but it is possibly the weakest fighting style. Even between OAs and Dex saves you shouldn't be too squeezed for reactions, but there will be competition sometimes. Dueling is better for offense and Defense makes you a better tank; both are usually superior to Protection.

You can really go any way with what you boost with your Level 4 ASI. Strength makes you more dangerous and better at shield bashes, Con makes you sturdier and better at concentration buffs, while Charisma boosts your number of spells prepared, your DC on a couple spells, and your aura once you get it. It's hard to go wrong.

[Pjohnnyko]

Thank you all for all of your suggestions! I point bought to what was suggested, and took shield master. So much shield =p

I don't think I want to multiclass unless it's just a couple of levels, still don't know.

Definitely going to take Str at lvl 4, Cha at lvl 8, inspiring leader at 12 I think. Any other suggestions? Is the tough feat worth anything for a tank? It sounds decent but Str and Cha might just be better to boost my attacks and aura and spells. Any suggestions welcome =)

[Nidgit]

With a MAD class like Paladin you're probably better off just boosting Strength, Charisma, and Constitution. Tough works best on Barbarian or Fighter, since they have more room to branch out. It's still not terrible if you want to take it anyway.

If you're looking for more options, Magic Initiate and Spell Sniper are both great ways to get a ranged attack for a class that's otherwise lacking in them. Heavy Armor Master is controversial at higher levels but can still block 6-9 damage per enemy as long as it's nonmagical.

[Pjohnnyko]

as for con vs. cha, really that is up to you. Keep in mind that your aura at level 6 is based on your cha and it is one of your strongest features.

what if I point bought
14, 8, 16, 8, 10, 16
And up strength at lvl 4 and either Str again at 8 or Cha and then the other at 12? Inspiring leader in there somewhere and then more Str and Cha to max them out

Think this is a good strategy as a tank?

[Galadhrim]

what if I point bought
14, 8, 16, 8, 10, 16
And up strength at lvl 4 and either Str again at 8 or Cha and then the other at 12? Inspiring leader in there somewhere and then more Str and Cha to max them out

Think this is a good strategy as a tank?

I'm not sure how that helps you. You could just up charisma at 4 and you will still have 16 when you get your aura at level 6. I think you will prefer the str from levels 1-4, especially if you took shield master as your feat. Honestly I think your best bet is to take 16's in str and cha and then going str at level 4

[sithlordnergal]

So, as a fellow Human Oath of the Ancients Paladin, you want to take your Paladin class to level 9 at the very least. You can remain in Paladin of course, it's an incredibly strong class. And as an Ancients you essentially don't care about spells targeting you. You would make a fine, powerful tank as a Paladin.

That said, if you choose to multiclass, I would do it after level 7, and I would eventually go to Paladin level 9. Reason being is that the 3rd level Paladin spells are really, really good. Revivify, Remove Curse, Crusader's Mantle, and that healing aura spell are all too good to give up when you get so close to them. And all of those spells make you a much stronger tank and support unit.

Now, if you choose not to multiclass into a caster like the Warlock or Sorcerer, just know that Javelins will be your main ranged weapon, especially with that dex. So you will be at disadvantage when fighting range combat.

[Pjohnnyko]

I'm not sure how that helps you. You could just up charisma at 4 and you will still have 16 when you get your aura at level 6. I think you will prefer the str from levels 1-4, especially if you took shield master as your feat. Honestly I think your best bet is to take 16's in str and cha and then going str at level 4

Oh, already about to hit lvl 4, I guess my concern was if 14 Con is enough for a tank and just trying to figure out the best balance going forward. Thoughts?

[Pjohnnyko]

So, as a fellow Human Oath of the Ancients Paladin, you want to take your Paladin class to level 9 at the very least. You can remain in Paladin of course, it's an incredibly strong class. And as an Ancients you essentially don't care about spells targeting you. You would make a fine, powerful tank as a Paladin.

That said, if you choose to multiclass, I would do it after level 7, and I would eventually go to Paladin level 9. Reason being is that the 3rd level Paladin spells are really, really good. Revivify, Remove Curse, Crusader's Mantle, and that healing aura spell are all too good to give up when you get so close to them. And all of those spells make you a much stronger tank and support unit.

Now, if you choose not to multiclass into a caster like the Warlock or Sorcerer, just know that Javelins will be your main ranged weapon, especially with that dex. So you will be at disadvantage when fighting range combat.

Nice on OotA! It was the only option for me and my character, Green Knight FTW!

Javelin forever sounds horrible for my only ranged so I'm thinking I will need to multiclass. I read a lot into the Sorcadin which sounds good for a tank, the 7/13 sounded good but you're saying at least 9/11 Sorcadin? I only read a little about warlock, someone said 2 lvls into warlock would suffice so I could go 18 Paladin.

What are your thoughts, plans, suggestions on Paladin multiclass?

[Nidgit]

For what it's worth, javelins are thrown via strength so low dexterity won't be a problem there.

Anyways, a Sorcadin's tanking abilities rely on the use of spells like Shield and Mirror Image since the class chassis doesn't offer much. It's more of a nova build than a tank one and thus doesn't mesh quite as well with Ancients as other Oaths. Shadow Sorceror is probably the most useful Origin for you, even if it does provide some, uh, interesting role-playing conflicts. The other Origins are all fine too.

Hexblade should be the clear Warlock dip if you want to go that way. Max Charisma ASAP and take your pick of lovely low level eldritch incantations, plus the best attack cantrip to boot. You even get Shield as exclusive Pact Magic! The only notable "drawback" here is that part of the appeal of going Hexblade is for SADness on offense, which means your Shield Master feat would get less priority. A bit less effective on a Sword n Board character looking for Shoves, but still really freaking good.

Going in the other direction, Barbarian offers superior tanking ability and improved Shoves. You can't cast or concentrate on spells while raging but Smites are still fair game. The resistances Bearbarian grants make the Ancients aura a little redundant, which means Ancestral Guardian might be the way to go. The main thing here is needing to use medium armor instead of heavy, which means you'll need to un-dump Dex in exchange for Int, Wis, or even Con or Cha. You'll still be tanking like a champ for your allies.

Lastly, the relatively un-sexy option of Fighter. A bonus fighting style, Second Wind recovery, Action Surge for extra Smites, and maybe a subclass boost. Cavalier, Champion, and Battle Master all have good options.

[Foxhound438]

Oh, already about to hit lvl 4, I guess my concern was if 14 Con is enough for a tank and just trying to figure out the best balance going forward. Thoughts?

It should be fine. 14 con is pretty common/standard for paladins, the d10 hit die and heavy armor should make you pretty tanky already, and you do have lay on hands to give yourself an extra 50%-ish hp as an action. Moreover, eventually taking inspiring leader is actually effectively more HP than a con boost, and it applies to the whole team.

[Pjohnnyko]

In case anyone was wondering how this turned out. My DM let me switch races and reassign my stats to my variant human stats that I wanted. I took shield master for variant human feat and +2 Str at lvl 4. Thanks all again for your input. Any other thoughts or suggestions are always appreciated =)