How do you handle Fortune/Misfortune revelations?

[graeylin]

When I read the guides for Oracle, they tout the dual cursed oracle archetype, because of the fortune and misfortune revelations. The common claim is that you can force a re-roll of a save, or a critical hit, etc., on the BBEG, or give your allies a second chance at a failed save.

But, that's not how the revelation works, is it?

The wording of the revelations is that you must choose to cause the re-roll BEFORE the results are revealed. So, when the DM rolls the BBEG save, and makes it... too late. The results are revealed, and you can't misfortune them away. BBEG scores a 20 on an attack, and will kill your wizard? Too late. Result is known. Partner fails a will save versus enchantment... too late. Result known.

So, doesn't this revelation lose a LOT of the greatness, if you are really just taking a wild chance that you are snatching a victory away, and turning it into a defeat? You have a 5% chance of blindly removing that roll of a 20, but you also have a 5% chance of giving the BBEG a reroll on the 1 he just rolled, right? And since you can use it just once per person, it doesn't seem like the get out of jail free card, that all the guides and handbooks claim it to be.

Am I missing something?

[Psyren]

"The result of a roll" is not the number on the die - it's what will happen due to that number. The issue with Misfortune though is that very few GMs (at least in my experience) roll out in the open or specify what number they got on the die unless it's a 1 or a 20, in which case they're usually revealing the result concurrently (or its obvious.) As you noted, being able to use Misfortune on those seems counter to the spirit of the ability, though there are actually more GMs than you think out there who'd gladly seize upon the excuse not to vorpal a player's head off in an anticlimactic way.

However, even if forcing enemy rerolls is not possible, Misfortune is still highly useful, because you're not required to use it on monsters - it functions just as well on an ally, whose rolls you CAN see. Basically, think of "Fortune" instead as "Reroll Self" and "Misfortune" as "Reroll Other" and you'll see why this archetype is so powerful. Use both abilities solely on friendly targets and you'll sidestep any issues, plus the party will love you.

[Long_shanks]

I've never played with this archetype, but, as we have done with similar abilities in both Pathfinder and 3.5, I would rule that you can use thoses abilities after you know the roll (say an 18 on the die) but before the result is announced.
Compare this to It was meant to be from the Destined Sorcerer bloodline:
It Was Meant To Be (Su): At 9th level, you may reroll any one attack roll, critical hit confirmation roll, or level check made to overcome spell resistance. You must decide to use this ability after the first roll is made but before the results are revealed by the GM. You must take the second result, even if it is worse. At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day.
And Misfortune:
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed.

So you know the number on the die, but not the result. I would expect fortune and misfortune, with their similar language, to have the same effect. The Dm would have to tell the player something like "12 on the die", and then give you a change to use misfortune.

[graeylin]

I understand I can use it on allies too... but the same conditions apply. Once the result of the roll is known, I can't use it.

I think the idea that "I rolled a 6, BUT, the results aren't known yet" is a bit incongruous. I doubt you'd get away with that in Vegas, or a craps game. Wait, I rolled a 4... but we haven't looked at the table yet, to see who wins, so... I get to re-roll.

Once the die stop spinning, the results are known, aren't they? Sure, you add +6 for strength, and +2 to flank, and weigh it against a table of AC, but... the results are determined when the die stops.

And, for some important things, a result of 1 or 20 is automatic (hit or miss). So, there's no need to calculate all the extras. Roll a 1, your buddy fails. You can't use misfortune to have him roll again.

I do see, however, the argument from the wording of "It was meant to be"... It certainly seems to indicate that you can indeed reroll that snake eyes in craps, before the (obvious) results are known. So, in this case, could you actually reroll a 1? That's an automatic fail (on a hit, at least), so the result is know as soon as it shows up. Do you rely on the wording about needing to be revealed by the GM? So if you shout "re-roll" before the GM can laugh and say "Fail", you get one?

[Talverin]

When it says 'before the results are revealed', it's in reference to things like...

The die rolls to a stop on a twenty. At this point, the die has been rolled, and we know what's going to happen, but the DM has not yet revealed the results. This is where you use the reroll.

The DM begins to talk about how the dastardly villain cleaves through three people, lopping off heads all along the way. By now? It's too late for the reroll.

Even if the result of the die roll is a forgone conclusion, it's not yet been 'revealed' until the DM states what happens because of it.

[Zaq]

Here's the thing. If you haven't seen the number on the die (assume that the die is still moving, or that the number is hidden under a dice cup, or something), then from your perspective, there's literally no difference between using a reroll and not using a reroll, because a reroll is only relevant if you're rejecting one number and trying for another one. If you call a reroll before the die stops moving, for example, there's basically only one number rolled, which is the same as if you hadn't called a reroll.

Consider a spell that says "for 1 round per caster level, the target must reroll every attack roll he or she makes, and the target must use the second result." This spell literally does nothing mechanical other than make the players roll extra dice for no reason, because the first result does not and cannot matter. You literally only care about the second roll, so the first roll is entirely superfluous. It's the same way with a ruling that says that you cannot see the number on the die before calling a reroll. If you have zero information about the number before it is rerolled, then you effectively only rolled the die once (for a different reason than in the example of the useless spell, but it's basically the same net result).

The opinion that really matters is that of your GM. If they agree that the ability is only meaningful if you've at least seen the number, then you're fine. If they feel like you have to have zero information about the number ahead of time, then go ahead and pick something else, because they've effectively shut down the ability.

[graeylin]

Thanks for the additional thoughts...

I must admit, the witches hex that uses two rolls and takes the worst is much better worded than the "take the result of the second".

I can see the argument about the die roll and the results being separate, but I was worried I was being too much of a legal slicer, to slice and dice the game mechanics apart into those thin pieces. Perhaps I am not after all.

[Psyren]

Again, the key for this ability's intent (given its name) is in several steps:

1) Does your GM roll openly, or behind a screen? If it's the former, you have no issue - just be quick on the draw with using your power (e.g. when you see an 18 come up as the monster's attack, that's probably a good time to use it.) If it's the latter, go to step 2.

2) If the GM rolls secretly, does he/she then call out die numbers for monsters first, or only results? (e.g. "The ogre grabs you" or "Possible crit with that shot, rolling to confirm" are both results.) If the former, you still have no issue - just listen for high numbers and again, be quick. If it's the latter, go to step 3.

3) Step 3 is GM-dependent - some will only say results, but forget that abilities like yours exist where the number and result should be separated. Either they will (a) start calling out the number to accommodate you, (b) they'll just let you use your power regardless of whether they've announced a result before you got a chance to or not, or (c) they'll soft-ban the ability for use on monsters by not telling you the number and still treating their initial result statement as final. If it's the first two, problem solved. If it's the last one, then your only real option is to abandon using it on monsters entirely, and use it only on allies instead - treating the "Misfortune" as being from the monster's perspective, despite the fact that you're modifying an ally's roll.

The important thing to keep in mind though is that the ability is still immensely useful no matter which scenario you end up in (i.e. even if you can only use it on allies.) So that should answer your question as to why Oracle guides rate it so highly.

[graeylin]

Even worse scenario... I do entirely Play by Post.

[Psyren]

Even worse scenario... I do entirely Play by Post.

Well that should answer your question then - the folks making handbooks don't (can't) assume people are playing exclusively PbP. It's just not the format the game was designed for.

Ergo, unless the folks you play with (even your allies) are willing to announce their rolls and then stop/wait for you to use your reroll power before the results are conveyed, you're just better off with something else. Sorry.

[Kurald Galain]

The common claim is that you can force a re-roll of a save, or a critical hit, etc., on the BBEG, or give your allies a second chance at a failed save.

But, that's not how the revelation works, is it?

Technically not, but because of expediency and quicker gameplay, I do recommend to play it like that.

Aside from that, I do think that misfortune is not intended to aid your allies (since, you know, that's the exact opposite of what misfortune means). Given that this is a very strong ability, I think it's fair to tone it down a notch by following this interpretation. Gain a little, lose a little.

[Psyren]

Eh, it's misfortune for your enemies, if the target they thought succumbed to their spell actually saved. So there's an argument to be made for using it on an ally.

If you're going to ban it on allies though, the GM should allow you to use in on enemies if the GM declared the result without declaring the roll first. Anything else is just banning it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Even worse scenario... I do entirely Play by Post.

I've never done a PbP myself, but as a general rule I would probably avoid using any abilities which can interrupt the flow of other character's turns just because of the limitations inherent in the format.

[grarrrg]

I do entirely Play by Post.
Ergo, unless the folks you play with (even your allies) are willing to announce their rolls and then stop/wait for you to use your reroll power before the results are conveyed,

Could make it explicitly clear to the group (especially the DM) that "I have dice reroll powers, if it's a possible life/death thing, let me know, otherwise carry-on".