What is Thor up to ?

[Mattheius]

Hello fellow forumites. I would like to shed a little light to the possibilities of Thor and the rest of the northen pantheon have, when it comes to stopping Hel´s little coup d'état. I have little to no knowledge about how DnD gods can wage wars amongst themselves, but I doubt that everybody would just helplessly sit and observe if some random adventure party possibly solves it. Yes i do realize DnD is about stuff being solved by random adventures and the Plot is about the Order, but still it seems unlikely Rich would just write Thor off in this manner.

Let´s summarize the facts:
Thor is significantly more powerful than Hel.
Most of the northen gods oppose Hel´s plan, especially the most powerful ones.
Thor actually might have legitimate casus-belli, since Durkon died honorably, yet his soul is being held captive by servant of Hel, on her direct order.
Thor is short-tempered god of war, who would likely ignore all rules if world was at stake.

So the question is what could be Thor up to, or more precisely why isn´t he currently hammering down the gates of Hel (sorry for the pun) and why his most powerful followers are not intercepting the vampires with any means necessary. So far all he seemingly came up with was one easily dismissable storm. His followers seemed to be caught by complete suprise by the vampires. Thoughts?

[hroþila]

Hel is playing by the rules, so if Thor attacks her the other gods *must* pile up on him to stop him, because the alternative is a no-holds-barred divine brawl that might well spawn another Snarl into being. And even if Thor decided he doesn't care or if he somehow convinced the other gods to attack Hel, they may not be able to do much to her: the Dark One was only vulnerable immediately after achieving godhood.

We also don't know that "most" Northern gods oppose Hel's plan.

Thor actually might have legitimate casus-belli, since Durkon died honorably, yet his soul is being held captive by servant of Hel, on her direct order.
No, Durkon was vampirized, and vampirism is part of the world rules that Thor and all the other gods ultimately agreed to. His soul is right where it belongs.

[Kish]

Actually, I'm inclined to challenge all your claimed facts except the first one.
2. The vote was one short of deadlocked before Hel cast her vote.
3. Thor has no legitimate objection to how vampires function. If he did, he should have raised it centuries ago. Hel is not doing anything nonstandard where the specific vampire victim Durkon Thundershield is concerned.
4. None of the gods is likely to discard all the rules and simply attempt to impose their will by brute force; that's what created the Snarl. If one did, all the other gods would unite to stop that one.

[factotum]

2. The vote was one short of deadlocked before Hel cast her vote.


That just tells us that the Northern Gods were roughly evenly split on the idea of whether to destroy the world. Since they'd all voted before Hel revealed her plan, it tells us nothing about their opinion on that. Maybe if they'd had the vote again after learning of the plan we would have had more voting to save the world, but since the "no backsies" rule prevents that happening, we don't know for sure.

Having said that, I would agree that Thor is unable to help directly without earning the ire of the other gods. Thrym probably got a bit of a pass there because he's a demi-god, not a full god, but any of the big boys attempting to help out one side or the other would be a no-no.

[Fyraltari]

That just tells us that the Northern Gods were roughly evenly split on the idea of whether to destroy the world. Since they'd all voted before Hel revealed her plan, it tells us nothing about their opinion on that. Maybe if they'd had the vote again after learning of the plan we would have had more voting to save the world, but since the "no backsies" rule prevents that happening, we don't know for sure.

Having said that, I would agree that Thor is unable to help directly without earning the ire of the other gods. Thrym probably got a bit of a pass there because he's a demi-god, not a full god, but any of the big boys attempting to help out one side or the other would be a no-no.

Thrym got a free pass because the Order does not serve any of the gods.

[hroþila]

A free pass for what? Thrym tried to influence the mortal world through his clerics - that's literally what they are for.

[The Aboleth]

Having said that, I would agree that Thor is unable to help directly without earning the ire of the other gods. Thrym probably got a bit of a pass there because he's a demi-god, not a full god, but any of the big boys attempting to help out one side or the other would be a no-no.

Thor has already directly "intervened." As soon as the airship came into Northern territory, he sent out a massive storm with (it can be reasonably assumed) the intent of sinking thr airship and stopping the Vampire from making it to the Godsmoot.

The key phrase in all this is "within the rules." I think Rich has gone to great lengths to show/explain what the gods can and cannot do; Thor is free to send his storms, and Thyrm is free to send his followers on a "divine mission" to interfere with the Order, because these actions fall within their godly domains. As long as they don't overstep their boundaries, they're free to aid or interfere with the Order's quest as they see fit.

[halfeye]

Thor is short-tempered god of war, who would likely ignore all rules if world was at stake.
The norse god of war was Tyr and/or Odin.

[Mattheius]

No, Durkon was vampirized, and vampirism is part of the world rules that Thor and all the other gods ultimately agreed to. His soul is right where it belongs.
You are right, I totaly did not realize that. Thanks for enlightening me.

Hel is playing by the rules, so if Thor attacks her the other gods *must* pile up on him to stop him, because the alternative is a no-holds-barred divine brawl that might well spawn another Snarl into being.
Would it realy threaten co create another Snarl? According to the Crayons of time the Snarl was created after prolonged disputes and mutual sabotages during the creation of the first world. Possible blitzkrieg with goal to disable Hel might not have the same consequences. No laws hold up forever and this might be enough even for Odin to break them.

And even if Thor decided he doesn't care or if he somehow convinced the other gods to attack Hel, they may not be able to do much to her: the Dark One was only vulnerable immediately after achieving godhood.

Again I have no idea how would divine war look like, but if Odin, Thor and co. decided to attack Hel, I would guess her defenses should go down pretty quick. I mean other deities should have some means if one them went insane and decided to i.e. release Snarl.


We also don't know that "most" Northern gods oppose Hel's plan.

Odin and the most powerful gods certainly do (as they stand the most to loose) and I dare to say that even most of those who voted yes would still rather bow to Odin than to Hel. Who of the big guys would realy actively come to Hel´s defense? Fenrir? I doubt other pantheons would interfere. But you never know with Loki.

The norse god of war was Tyr and/or Odin.
I expressed myself poorly, I meant that Thor was always portraied as one eager to head to battle. You are right Thor was mostly known as god of storms and protector of mankind.


So what exactly can Thor do thought ? Couldn´t he or his high cleric warn his other clerics? Can he grant extra spells to Minrah like he did to Durkon with ThorPrayer?

[Jasdoif]

I mean other deities should have some means if one them went insane and decided to i.e. release Snarl.What makes you think they would have a recourse besides "trap the Snarl with a new world, again"? And if such an approach exists, why would the Godsmoot be held on the subject of destroying the world instead of that?

[Mattheius]

What makes you think they would have a recourse besides "trap the Snarl with a new world, again"? And if such an approach exists, why would the Godsmoot be held on the subject of destroying the world instead of that?
I meant that the gods should have means to somehow containt one of them that went mad or rouge, not to contain Snarl. Sorry if I am not clear, English is not my native language.

[alwaysbebatman]

I meant that the gods should have means to somehow containt one of them that went mad or rouge, not to contain Snarl. Sorry if I am not clear, English is not my native language.

They do, it's the same one nations have irl: MAD.

[Fyraltari]

Would it realy threaten co create another Snarl? According to the Crayons of time the Snarl was created after prolonged disputes and mutual sabotages during the creation of the first world. Possible blitzkrieg with goal to disable Hel might not have the same consequences. No laws hold up forever and this might be enough even for Odin to break them.


It would set a precedent. If Thor can break the rules to stop Hel, then Loki can break them to stop Heimdall, and Balder to stop Hoder, etc. If the rules are not enforced then they do not exist and the Northern Pantheon is back to square one. Which means that the two others would have to try and stop them to spawn the Snarl II, which means they have in turn broken the rules...

Besides as Undurkon pointed out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) if Thor interfered ddirectly then Hel can unleash ebola (or whatever) on the Dwrven Lands, kill all the Dwarves dishonorably and get what she want with the added bonus of making an hypocrite out of (Lawful good) Thor who broke the rules when they did not suit him anymore.

[martianmister]

Thor can do nothing, his hands are tied by the rules.

[Dragolord]

It would set a precedent. If Thor can break the rules to stop Hel, then Loki can break them to stop Heimdall, and Balder to stop Hoder, etc. If the rules are not enforced then they do not exist and the Northern Pantheon is back to square one. Which means that the two others would have to try and stop them to spawn the Snarl II, which means they have in turn broken the rules...

Besides as Undurkon pointed out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) if Thor interfered ddirectly then Hel can unleash ebola (or whatever) on the Dwrven Lands, kill all the Dwarves dishonorably and get what she want with the added bonus of making an hypocrite out of (Lawful good) Thor who broke the rules when they did not suit him anymore.

He doesn't act terribly Lawful. I've always assumed that he's Chaotic-leaning Neutral.

[Fyraltari]

He doesn't act terribly Lawful. I've always assumed that he's Chaotic-leaning Neutral.

I see him more as Lawful-good leaning toward neutral good in that he cares more about the spirit of the law (dwarves that die with honour don't go to Hel) or how much good comes out of it (stoping the minions of a rampaging evil druid) than the letter of the law. Also some people here say that in D&D 3.5 heis LG.

That's my interpretation of it of course, it is only as valid as any other, and since we have barely seen any of him, that is not much.

[martianmister]

Good. :smallcool:

[Kish]

Also some people here say that in D&D 3.5 heis LG.
Haven't seen that.

[Fyraltari]

Haven't seen that.

I'm probably wrong then. I know next to nothing about D&D.

Edit : Yup I'm wrong according to the D&D wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thor_(3.5e_Deity)) he is CG (makes sense really). Should have remembered to fact-check before opening my mouth.

[skim172]

As some have pointed out, the gods are bound by the laws.

But there is a valid point you've made: Why hasn't Thor warned his clerics about the impending threat? Why are they so surprised by this development? Enough time has passed for the Order to traverse the mountains in an airship and arrive at the city - surely Thor has had more than enough time to text his followers or something. "Evil Hel cleric wants to destroy world. Is coming to vampirize you all. #WearGarlic." Isn't that still within the laws? The gods aren't allowed to directly interfere with one another, but they can task their clerics with divine missions to get stuff done.

In fact, maybe even go a little further than that. Send a mass message to all Thor worshippers: "Everyone! Vampires are here and they want to kill you and then the planet! Get out your hammers and batten down the hatches! HashtagWearGarlic". Have all the Thor clerics of the world descend upon the city, armed for battle. The other gods could do the same - including the ones who are pro-armaggedon. Sure, it'd be cleric-vs-cleric blood in the streets, and you don't know which side's clerics will win - but that still seems like a wiser choice than betting everything on a single ragtag band of unlikely heroes emerging victorious against impossible odds.


Wait, what am I saying - ragtag bands of unlikely heroes against impossible odds are always victorious.

[Fyraltari]

Thor may not know that firmament is under attack since the gods couldn't hear (or most likely see) what happened in the cathedral he probably thinks Undurkon is locked up with the other High Priests. Hel and Thrym know better because they were in on the plan and made contact with him. It's possible Loki knows because he's Loki but even then it's likely he did not tell anybody because he's Loki.

[factotum]

I don't think the Gods usually communicate directly with their clerics like that--they tend to do it via dreams or other prophetic visions. Also see: the Dark One never communicated directly with Redcloak, he instead sent a message via Jirix after he was raised.

[skim172]

Hel seems to have a direct line to Non-Durkon - shouldn't at least some of the other gods have an easier way of communicating than appearing as cryptic dream metaphors?

Also, sorta related, but couldn't Thor's high priest at least have sent a message ahead? "Hey, I'm sending these guys to help you out with the vampires - don't try to kill them when they enter the temple - also, there are vampires."

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd say Thor's up to his third pint, so far. It's early yet.

[Jasdoif]

Also, sorta related, but couldn't Thor's high priest at least have sent a message ahead?If the Godsmoot barrier doesn't actually block communication magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html), and High Priestess Rubyrock had a communication spell prepared, sure.

[Doctor West]

Hel seems to have a direct line to Non-Durkon - shouldn't at least some of the other gods have an easier way of communicating than appearing as cryptic dream metaphors?

Also, sorta related, but couldn't Thor's high priest at least have sent a message ahead? "Hey, I'm sending these guys to help you out with the vampires - don't try to kill them when they enter the temple - also, there are vampires."

It's likely that said direct line is via the Commune spell or similar.
I think that's what it's called anyway. I don't really do 3.5. :smalleek:

[factotum]

Commune only allows for yes/no answers, so it wouldn't have allowed for the conversation Durkula had with Hel back on the ship. However, it does make sense that conversations between clerics and their deity are generally started from the cleric side--a deity has thousands of clerics, which one would he send his messages to?