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mehs
2017-11-12, 04:44 PM
When I was level 3, I cast command undead on a zombie, not knowing that apparently all necromancy is illegal in the town I was in. At 7-8th level, we had just finished fighting a mature adult white dragon (cr 12) the previous day and had forced him to sign a magically binding contract of servitude. Then a high level ranger (I think 12-14) came with a group of 20 orcs one or two of which were also high level spellcasters. He came to take me prisoner. The rest of the party (mostly the GM PC) decided to not fight and just hand me over. I feel I need to say that we weren't even on the same plane of existence as when we were low level. After a kangaroo court my character was executed.

Then instead of going to the after life, Lucifer had snagged my soul and made me help him . Basically he said that apophis was breaking out of his prison and he wanted me to negotiate a treaty with the 2 fey courts. I went over there and it was going well, until the winter knight killed the (lesser) winter Queen and framed me. Then the winter and summer knight (both cr 22) chased me across 2 or 3 planes of existence. The Sumer knight (level 15 cleric nymph) even summoned a glabrezu on me with planar ally. The glabrezu summoned a vrock on me which I killed easily enough, and later when the glabrezu fought me I ran it off. Then I got the the home of an ally Lucifer told me to go to and fought the summer knight. I was a level 5 wizard rainbow servant 4, but the cleric had nothing to fight a flying invisible enemy while webbed. Somehow.
The winter knight had allied with me earlier and he tried the kill the summer knight (after I told him to take her prisoner) and he revealed to me that he had crucified a friend I made earlier. I ran off (Lucifer plane shifted me) and healed the friend (she was almost dead but not all dead) and I ran off the winter knight (4 allips surrounding him).

Then I rode off of the GM PC's grandmother (the ally Lucifer told me about and an ancient red dragon) and busted the rest of the party out of slavery. We then had a nice base(the gold mine the others were enslaved at) I wanted to set up, but GM PC insisted on going back to the material plane (where we were wanted criminals) and he immediately picked up a quest to stop some vampires in London. Just to repeat, we had almost no equipment and he wanted to go hunting vampires in a major city (should also point out the setting of the campaign is modern day earth). I spent 3 days shopping for equipment and summoning outsiders then another 2 days summoning outsiders to guard home base and scout for vampires (final tally was 9 courses, 7 mustevals, 4 equinals, and 4 hound archons). The party got attacked by a vampire about day 2 but it wasn't the only vampire so we were still hired. Then we were in a hotel room, we got a knock on the door and there was a guy wearing a full Victorian age get up and a guy Fawkes mask. I looked at him with variety of divinations but got no result, then I dispel magic which kind of got a result, then I cut the the chase and did halt undead which worked. There was a fight (4 vampire wolves showed up next round and freed him from halt undead) and eventually GM PC and other player decided to hear what he had to say and let him go. The he came back in the middle of the night and kidnapped me and vampirised me. Even when he took the gag off and I tried to cast teleport, it auto failed because he just put the gag back on (I don't know how that works). And I want to remind you, I was surrounded by 24 outsiders and was glowing like the sun (greater luminous armor) when he kidnapped me.

As it is now, me letting the vampire go made the god I worship (Anubis) not like me anymore and I have lost my 4 levels of rainbow servant except for the caster level. The GM doesn't even allow retraining so those are just 4 empty levels now.

Both times it is because the GM PC is telling me to not fight the enemy and it almost directly leads to the guy I am told to not fight killing me.

Other partially related grevence is that I am only level 9 still. The glabrezu gave half xp because he ran away and I didn't get any from the knights I beat slash made to run away (which were cr 22). Even then, the GM is making 2 different math errors (and knows it) so that I am still level 9 instead of level 10.


Gggaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh

ATHATH
2017-11-12, 05:51 PM
Have you talked with your DM about this?

EldritchWeaver
2017-11-12, 06:34 PM
Have you talked with your DM about this?

I agree. The OP describes what might be a DM who likes to railroad and is a jerk. Not sure how he managed to survive enemies with a CR more than twice his own level, but forcing the OP into situations, where he is being punished with no way to rectify the situation, is not a sign of good DM. Find out, why the DM acts like this and be prepared that the reasons might be bad enough that leaving the group is the better choice.

mehs
2017-11-12, 06:49 PM
should note that the GM is horrible about making actual challenges against a wizard. the vrock, glabrezu, summer knight, and winter knight fights were each on separate days. I knew about them with a couple days of in game warning (saw the summer knight summoned the glabrezu). And I am a wizard. There were no other fights or encounters. Mostly I just scribed some pertinent scrolls, adjusted my daily spell selection accordingly, and such. Oh and the dragon? we had a month of in game warning about that one as we were a going dragon hunting.

Because of this he is arguing I am over powered. I honestly did not know that the nymph cleric couldn't do anything against a flying invisible enemy pot shotting enervations. That surprised me.

Demidos
2017-11-12, 09:41 PM
Honestly, it sounds like you have far more system mastery than your own DM. Your DM doesn't know the standard counters to the various techniques you are using, and is ramping up the NPCs to try to give you a challenge, only to be frustrated and railroad you when he cannot present your character with a significant threat.

I base this on that....

Given what you described, it sounds like you are using the interpretation of rainbow servant that has full casting (since text trumps table), are using powerful spells like web, fly, luminous armor, and planar binding to their full effect, and can easily deal with threats far above your CR.
On the other hand, your DM is not only obviously railroading, but sends threats far above your CR that are still incapable of subduing you or even causing you too much effort. Based on some shameful early memories from my own DMing days, this sounds entirely familiar....


Now, it's up to you how you want to handle this, but the options that come to mind are...

Show him the forums, the standard lists of equipment, the relevant spells at each level, and let him learn how to present you with threats. I find this unlikely to work, simply because there is so much work going into system mastery in D&D that it becomes a labor of years, and not really feasible to force someone to learn.
Ramp down your character's power level. This is probably the easiest fix to introduce, since it only depends on you. Play some limited character like a wild-shape ranger, binder, or incarnate, and turn your system mastery to making them a useful party member rather than allowing yourself the frankly insane power of a wizard. This way your DM feels like he is doing a good job at challenging you, while still preserving your ability to play. If he continues railroading, perhaps there is a different issue at work.
Offer to DM. This means that you have the chance to demonstrate how to properly use different characters at different levels. Offer to show the players the character sheets once they defeat a given foe if they want to scavenge the builds to learn new tricks. This improves everyone's system mastery. A good option, imho.
Quit the game. Maybe not a fun option, but if there is an adversarial relationship between you (as suggested by the xp mismanagement comment) then maybe it's for the best. If you want to continue the game, however, try to have an honest talk about what's going wrong in the game, and you may have to play something more easy to manage if he cannot deal with your ideas. Try to be patient, not everyone is good at optimization.

RazorChain
2017-11-12, 09:49 PM
Jeez, you newbies. Just listen to the DM PC and do what he tells you

mehs
2017-11-13, 12:26 AM
Listening to the DM PC is what is getting me killed both times though? The vampire who killed me the 2nd time even lampshaded it that I shouldn't have listened to the other people and should've continued trying to kill the vampire.

EldritchWeaver
2017-11-13, 02:49 AM
Text in blue is meant sarcastically.

mehs
2017-11-13, 04:09 AM
oh ok. what other color codes are there or is that deviating from topic too much?

dethkruzer
2017-11-13, 04:27 AM
I'll be frank, your DM sounds like an adversarial, incompetent dickwaffle. If a high-level nymph cleric cannot wipe a floor with a ECL 9 wizard, then either that nymph has taken a vow of poverty and/or is an idiot. All I see is a bunch of mismanagement, railroading, and egregious amounts of DM fiat. Let me guess, the DMPC is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu?

DeTess
2017-11-13, 04:56 AM
oh ok. what other color codes are there or is that deviating from topic too much?

Blue is the only official one as far as I know, but there are rumors of a purple color used to indicate something being suggested is (Lawful) evil.

Kaerou
2017-11-13, 05:47 AM
I'll be frank, your DM sounds like an adversarial, incompetent dickwaffle. If a high-level nymph cleric cannot wipe a floor with a ECL 9 wizard, then either that nymph has taken a vow of poverty and/or is an idiot. All I see is a bunch of mismanagement, railroading, and egregious amounts of DM fiat. Let me guess, the DMPC is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu?

This.

Its called CoD-zilla for a reason. Clerics have plenty of options to deal with both invisibility and flying.

It sounds like your GM can't handle what sounds like 3rd ed / pathfinder spellcasters. I always found spellcasters the easiest to deal with in my games but apparently he keeps letting you prepare.

My advice is to talk with him and dont rant about it and be prepared to switch characters.

What you mentioned sounds like no fun for you or your party who are apparently sat twiddling their thumbs while you get all these solo adventures?

dethkruzer
2017-11-13, 08:58 AM
Also, what is up with basically depowering OPs rainbow servant levels? Based on what OP said, can you really interpret that as anything other than the DM punishing a player for his own inability to create a challenge without breaking several rules?

War_lord
2017-11-13, 09:09 AM
Leave the game, poor DMing can be corrected, malevolent DMing cannot. At some point this DM decided it was all your fault, I doubt anything you do will change that.

Prince Gimli
2017-11-13, 09:30 AM
I second the people suggesting that you talk to the DM about this.

I get the feeling that he feels he's in way over his head, and may be getting insecure/nervous about that fact. A combination of being nervous, and being confused are probably what lead to these rather...desperate measures you describe. "Oh help what do I do - I'll just take his rainbow servant casting away!" Something like that I imagine happening there.

So I'd reccommend gently (and a bit firmly, if necessary) talking to him about it, explain how you feel, and possibly offer him help with all the mechanics. For example, you can ask him what he is trying to do with a certain encounter, and help him design one. If he says "I want to make an encounter with a dragon/demons/orcs/whatever", you could help him design an encounter appropriate for your party. Or whatever else it is he needs/wants help with.

Furthermore, if he is willing to learn, there are plenty of resources out there with advice for new DMs, both on the internet, and of course books like the DMG and DMG 2.

And maybe he'd have an easier time, and enjoy it more, to DM for lower level characters, so he can learn the ropes at a gentler pace :smallsmile:

EDIT: In response to the idea of malevolence, if it turns out he is not willing to learn, and is just simply choosing to be a jerk, then yes, I would consider leaving the game as well. But I'd still reccommend talking to him about it first, and see how that goes :).

mehs
2017-11-13, 10:14 AM
Near the beginning, we fought some cultist who were wearing amulets of what at first were 50 uses of command undead per day. After I burst out laughing after saying are you sure about that a few times, they were changed to once per day enervation. At level 4. Recently they were changed to 3 uses of enervation period (at level 9) after I mentioned that I wasn't keeping track of usages since I had combined 5 which according to pricing formulas, makes it at will. Well, makes it have the same cost of an at will item and therefore I can and did make it into an at will item.


That should give you all an idea of what I'm working with.


He has also gotten really passive aggressiveness about posting "dm is always right" and "story is more important" memes.

Oh and clarification, he took the class features like the wings, domain access, wings, and detect chaos slash evil away. I still have the caster levels

DeTess
2017-11-13, 10:30 AM
Near the beginning, we fought some cultist who were wearing amulets of what at first were 50 uses of command undead per day. After I burst out laughing after saying are you sure about that a few times, they were changed to once per day enervation. At level 4. Recently they were changed to 3 uses of enervation period (at level 9) after I mentioned that I wasn't keeping track of usages since I had combined 5 which according to pricing formulas, makes it at will. Well, makes it have the same cost of an at will item and therefore I can and did make it into an at will item.


That should give you all an idea of what I'm working with.



I can understand if he got angry about this if you did the combining without asking him. Those price-lists are guidelines, after all, and subject to DM fiat. I'm not saying that your DM is in the right with the rest that he's done, but actions like these aren't making things any easier for him.

Edit: based on this, it seems like you're working with a very inexperienced DM. I suggest you follow the suggestions about talking to him and helping him. If you instead continue trying to wring every bit of power out of the rules without helping the DM understand the game better, then both you and him will continue to have a bad time.

Geddy2112
2017-11-13, 10:33 AM
When I was level 3, I cast command undead on a zombie, not knowing that apparently all necromancy is illegal in the town I was in.
Not exactly blaming you for this, but most civilized worlds and settings frown on necromancy as it is inherently evil and totally messed up. It is pretty much common knowledge/fair to assume that necromancy is illegal in more places than it is legal. I will throw your DM a bone here; playing stupid games generally wins you stupid prizes.


The rest of the party (mostly the GM PC) decided to not fight and just hand me over...GM PC's grandmother (the ally Lucifer told me about and an ancient red dragon)...GM PC insisted on going back to the material plane (where we were wanted criminals) and he immediately picked up a quest... GM PC is telling me to not fight the enemy and it almost directly leads to the guy I am told to not fight killing me.


Here is the problem. 99% of the time, a GMPC is a red flag for an awful game/DM. The GMPC is the star, and runs the game, you are along for the ride. Being a wizard and killing powerful creatures and being a wizard is making it worse, so the DM is fiat limiting your power and having their Marty Stu(their grandmother is a red dragon, and convinently an ally of yours. Marty Stu confirmed) railroad the game.

Unless the party needs a 3rd/4th member, there is no excuse for a DMPC, and even then the DMPC has to be used very carefully or things like this happen. Leave the game.

mehs
2017-11-13, 10:51 AM
We only have 2 players aside from GM PC, though we do each have 2 characters ( my other character was forcibly and almost literally put on a bus after he got sick and tired after apophis cultists kept on attacking us up the the point of the avatar of apophis coming into our apartment office and summoning 2 black dragons. He burnt their hq down a bit by accident and killed enough to level quite a bit. To 10. We were level 5. At that point we were using gestalts and mythic tiers from pathfinder (I had read that 2 tiers roughly equaled 1 level but I didn't know the rule of thumb that you should only be able to take a tier every other level) that one was my fault and he got nerfed. He then did it again without the tiers. He got nerfed again. He then got put on a bus. (Invisible rogue against a bunch of wizards using fireball). He is now a bard and I haven't gotten to play him for a couple months. We are no longer using gestalts.


Oh and he now has 2 gm PC's. The other one is a wizard. And get this, the zombie I used command undead on? It was his. the side quest was to apprehend him and he tried to run away using zombie to cover his retreat. I cast the spell then critiqued the reanimation and decomposition. we then hid the guy when the cops (who would later kangaroo court me) came busting through the windows (when they were the ones who posted the bounty for him). We later decapped the zombie, I cast sentry skull on the skull and he lived in the fridge for a bit. We named him boris. The guy, who was an assassin for the apophis cult is a NG necromancer. Peer pressure so says the GM.

I will now gripe how he gets to do that and be NG but being made into a vampire auto makes me evil.

Deophaun
2017-11-13, 11:05 AM
There is no such thing as a DMPC; there are only bags of XP and loot pinatas.

dethkruzer
2017-11-13, 12:03 PM
that one was my fault and he got nerfed. He then did it again without the tiers. He got nerfed again. He then got put on a bus. (Invisible rogue against a bunch of wizards using fireball). He is now a bard and I haven't gotten to play him for a couple months. We are no longer using gestalts.

This is till within the same game?

Geddy2112
2017-11-13, 12:35 PM
Well, part of your problem is not enough players. Go recruit some coworkers/classmates/friends/family/roommates/random idiots to join your group. You can put a really positive spin on it to your DM for retiring the DMPC's

"Hey, I know running a game and controlling 2 characters on top of everything else is super hard, and I know a party of two is too small so you wanted us to have friends. Now that we have Joe Blow and Jane Lane joining our group, you don't have to run DMPC's and work as hard, taking a load off your shoulders" or something like that.

As best I understand is that you were supposed to attack/apprehend the DMPC, so you tried to, and died? Sounds pretty bad, but you were screwed from the beginning on that one. A white necromancer I understand, and being undead is inherently evil, but again, sounds pretty bad. I would really probably just leave the game or DM yourself(find some more mooks).

No gaming is better than bad gaming, and even with more players, a lot of these problems would probably persist.

Mastikator
2017-11-13, 01:47 PM
He came to take me prisoner. The rest of the party (mostly the GM PC) decided to not fight and just hand me over. I feel I need to say that we weren't even on the same plane of existence as when we were low level. After a kangaroo court my character was executed.


This sounds like straight up bullying, I have no idea why your DM thinks this kind of behavior is even remotely acceptable. It's not. It's so far over the line you can't even see the line. You should demand a sincere apology from your DM to be honest.

Though if I were you I'd take the DM aside and ask him if he wants me to quit the group. Anything less than a "nononono please this is a misunderstanding" would be interpreted as a "yes but I'm too much of a spineless coward to say it"


Gggaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh Agreed.

Velaryon
2017-11-13, 01:48 PM
This definitely sounds like a case of an inexperienced DM using increasingly ham-fisted attempts to try and rein in a PC whose power he cannot handle. Between the presence of GMPC's, multiple nerfs and stripping abilities away from the character, killing by fiat, etc., they are definitely not someone with a strong mastery of the system, and likely not a lot of experience as a DM either.

As others have suggested, you've got to talk to the DM about the issues you're having. You might suggest tactics that can be used to combat your character fairly, or show them a few optimization tricks they can use, or ask for feedback on what you may be doing as a player that they're having trouble with.



Blue is the only official one as far as I know, but there are rumors of a purple color used to indicate something being suggested is (Lawful) evil.

Blue text is not official - I cannot find it, but The Giant has expressly said that using blue text to indicate sarcasm is purely voluntary and should not be treated as a rule or even something people are strongly encouraged to do. The only one that may be official is moderators posting in red while acting in their official capacity.

mehs
2017-11-13, 04:49 PM
I have repeatedly tried to tell him that if he keeps on doing one encounter per in game day, I will continue to wipe the floor with whatever he sends at me because I can then afford to go high burn. Even this was soundly denied.

What happened with the npc that later became the second gmpc was we were suppose to capture him but I level 1 suggestion spell (spell that just causes a thought in someone's mind, will save to realize it is a spell) ed him to come back and talk. a bit after that the men in black came bursting in and arrested everyone. Mostly thinking that we would be arrested if we were found to be connected to him (even though we were on a bounty to capture him set by the men in black. seriously they subcontracted it to bounty hunters then decided to bust in and do it themselves), I covered for him and he lived at our place for a while.

I checked and he actually posted fewer passive aggressive "dm is always right" memes than I thought. they just stuck out in my mind and he reused some a few times.

Oh and with the bard rogue (bard now) that was put on a bus, he is level 11, is my other character's brother, knows that he died, and is about to go on a roaring rampage of revenge which should be unnecessary if either the rest of the party manage a decent plan or my plan works.

Arbane
2017-11-13, 04:53 PM
Blue is the only official one as far as I know, but there are rumors of a purple color used to indicate something being suggested is (Lawful) evil.

Well, basically, purple text indicates QUALITY Gming advice. (Specifically, bad quality.)

OP: This game you're in sounds hilarious from the outside, and (I'm willing to bet) immensely frustrating from the inside. The three best bits of advice have already been given:

a: Talk to your GM.
b: If they just hate you/your character, RUN AWAY.
c: If they're just unable to deal with your character, play another one, and try to rope in some more players.

Offer to GM, maybe?

War_lord
2017-11-13, 05:06 PM
This definitely sounds like a case of an inexperienced DM using increasingly ham-fisted attempts to try and rein in a PC whose power he cannot handle. Between the presence of GMPC's, multiple nerfs and stripping abilities away from the character, killing by fiat, etc., they are definitely not someone with a strong mastery of the system, and likely not a lot of experience as a DM either.

As others have suggested, you've got to talk to the DM about the issues you're having. You might suggest tactics that can be used to combat your character fairly, or show them a few optimization tricks they can use, or ask for feedback on what you may be doing as a player that they're having trouble with.

See, the reason I disagree with this advice, and why my advice was to quit the game, is that it's not really a problem with experience. An inexperienced DM makes mistakes, an inexperienced DM has trouble with encounter design.

An inexperienced DM doesn't make the entire game revolve around their DMPC (never mind two), an inexperienced DM doesn't autokill players, an inexperienced DM doesn't spend large amounts of table time trying to humiliate one player for supposedly bringing an OP character. An jerk does that, and a person being a jerk is usually beyond changing with some simple advice. This person isn't (just) a bad DM, they're a toxic personality.

RazorChain
2017-11-13, 07:39 PM
We only have 2 players aside from GM PC, though we do each have 2 characters ( my other character was forcibly and almost literally put on a bus after he got sick and tired after apophis cultists kept on attacking us up the the point of the avatar of apophis coming into our apartment office and summoning 2 black dragons. He burnt their hq down a bit by accident and killed enough to level quite a bit. To 10. We were level 5.


Damn....that was a big office if 2 black dragons fit in it. I gather they were small ones?




OP: This game you're in sounds hilarious from the outside, and (I'm willing to bet) immensely frustrating from the inside. The three best bits of advice have already been given:


Oh yes I'm having a lot of fun with what happens in that game....sounds like a bunch of 13 year olds with penchant for mythology

mehs
2017-11-13, 07:45 PM
Young CR 7 I believe. The office was/is basically a studio apartment, I think 100 by 40 feet. similar.

RazorChain
2017-11-13, 08:01 PM
Young CR 7 I believe. The office was/is basically a studio apartment, I think 100 by 40 feet. similar.

a 4000 square feet studio apartment, the rent must have been absurd. I would have changed it into a regular flat, much better value if you have multiple rooms

mehs
2017-11-13, 10:13 PM
i have changed my character sheet to being a vampire and spell list to evil guy, but i still want to know: how did the vampire knock on our door less than 30 sec after we had narrowed down his location FROM AN OMNISCENT SCOURCE to a completely different section of the city. He even had a car he stuffed me in, implying that he drove. Heck, even if he had teleported that wouldnt work exactly since the teleport is always off by a margin.

me - Today at 4:31 PM
to Gm
please answer teh question
@gm i wrote as accurate an account as what has been happening as i can remember on the giantitp forum. please read their responses and tell me what you thing
gm
@gm please respond

me - Today at 5:13 PM
@gm please respond
@gm also, you do remember that the longsword i have is deathless longsword of necromancers along with the abilities lucifer and i added to it, right?

gm - Today at 5:14 PM
not yet it's not...?

me - Today at 5:15 PM
i say so because the current set up (in dungeon filled with undead) is the req for the 2nd step thing (spend 3 days in dungeon infested with undead, survival is not neccessary)
[(((link to this thread)))))
the 2nd step thing is called alone in the dark, the 1st step thing i did earlier is beginning of despair (destroy undead with deathless as only weapon, can use spells, magic items, and spell like abilites)
also, please click and read the links
link*
have you read the link yet gm?

me - Today at 7:43 PM
gm

me - Today at 9:23 PM
(((((link to this thread)))))
read the link

gm - Today at 9:27 PM
I got the gist of it from other player

And I'm only saying this one last time.

Quit whining. Quit leaving things out to try to make your side seem right. Your character isn't even out of the damn game. And I didn't even intentionally target you either time.

me - Today at 9:28 PM
so you havent read it yourself, but instead had other player read it and tell you

other player - Today at 9:28 PM
Tell him what

me - Today at 9:29 PM
i had posted what was happening in game in a dnd forum to get other players response
gm refuses to read their responses

other player - Today at 9:32 PM
I read it on my own accord
So dont ever say **** like that

me - Today at 9:33 PM
like what?
he refuses to read it

other player - Today at 9:34 PM
No more or i will mute you

me - Today at 9:34 PM
?

other player - Today at 9:35 PM
No more whining

me - Today at 9:35 PM
other player i did it to get an honest response from the other players but gm refuses to read it

gm - Today at 9:40 PM
I've read what you said.

You're bitching.

Quit it.

me - Today at 9:41 PM
what part of the sescription of events would you say is inaccurate?(edited)

GM - Today at 9:41 PM
It's without context.

Your first death was to show that the MCB's a bunch of *******s and to get Lucifer into further contact with the party. It served a story purpose.

me - Today at 9:42 PM
so that is the only part you disagree with?

GM - Today at 9:43 PM
Also, I am trying to back off of the railroading. So be ****ing patient, alright?? I'm trying to fix this game.

me - Today at 9:43 PM
would you please mind not swearing. both of you.

gm - Today at 9:43 PM
And by the way, you seem to have ignored this guy:
"Ramp down your character's power level. This is probably the easiest fix to introduce, since it only depends on you. Play some limited character like a wild-shape ranger, binder, or incarnate, and turn your system mastery to making them a useful party member rather than allowing yourself the frankly insane power of a wizard. This way your DM feels like he is"
@me **** no.
I will swear as much as I ****ing want.
This is my server.

me - Today at 9:44 PM
you said that i cant retrain

gm - Today at 9:47 PM
I am prepared to give you the opportunity to exchange those for cleric levels if you spend time meditating and finding a new god.

me- Today at 9:47 PM
I still worship anubis in game.

gm - Today at 9:47 PM
"My advice is to talk with him and dont rant about it and be prepared to switch characters."

seems like you ignored this too
"What you mentioned sounds like no fun for you or your party who are apparently sat twiddling their thumbs while you get all these solo adventures?"

And you didn't mention that they were doing things as well, I see
"Edit: based on this, it seems like you're working with a very inexperienced DM. I suggest you follow the suggestions about talking to him and helping him. If you instead continue trying to wring every bit of power out of the rules without helping the DM understand the game better, then both you and him will continue to have a bad time."

bolded for emphasis

me - Today at 9:49 PM
gm, i have tried to help you understand the rules better and offer suggestions. you have told me to shut up each time.
And i have not ignored either of them, so what is your reason for saying i have?

gm - Today at 9:50 PM
I'm saying that because you appear to have not noticed the same criticism that I have leveled against you from the ****ing start

me - Today at 9:52 PM
the first two people you referenced are suggesting i retrain classes or switch characters, the formor of which you do not allow and the latter i do not wish to because i like edgar and william.
so i repeat, why do you say that i ignored the two people?

other player - Today at 9:53 PM
i dont think i can play in a game with someone cant have fun roleplaying if you cant learn how im just going to stop playing intill you act your own age dude

gm - Today at 9:54 PM
The other guy was suggesting that you don't rant about it

Which is what most of this is(edited)

me - Today at 9:54 PM
i do have fun roleplaying. i do not have fun when my characters keep on dying with nothing i can do to stop it.

gm - Today at 9:54 PM
YOUR CHARACTERS HAVEN'T EVEN LEFT THE GAME!(edited)
YOU DO NOT GET TO COUNT THEM AS 'DEAD'!

me - Today at 9:55 PM
but you keep on killing them and you did force william to leave the game for a few months now with it only being next session or so that he will return.

gm - Today at 9:55 PM
Also, the first guy suggested that you ramp down your character's power level, which is something I've said from the goddamn start

me - Today at 9:55 PM
yes you said that he said

gm - Today at 9:55 PM
But Edgar didn't stay dead for longer than FIVE SECONDS.

other player - Today at 9:55 PM
im done with this game intill you can find some middle ground and compremise like real "americans"(edited)

gm - Today at 9:55 PM
And this time he's only technically, barely dead
point being, you have no reason to complain like this

me - Today at 9:56 PM
i will see




and then I copy pasted this discord chat log, changing the names to me, other player, and gm

War_lord
2017-11-13, 10:45 PM
I have no idea why you're still associating with these people unless you just like arguments and being constantly disrespected. I'm really getting the sense that there's a lack of adult supervision. The DM is a crybaby who can't take any responsibility for his failures, so you're the scapegoat and your "fellow" player seems to also be a total jerk.

dps
2017-11-13, 10:55 PM
If it's at the point that you ask someone to please quit swearing and their response is that they will swear as much as they ****ing like, you should bail. At least in a social situation; in a business or professional setting it might be part of your job to deal with it, but you don't have to put up with it in your private life.

RazorChain
2017-11-14, 12:00 AM
@Mehs I'm not really sure what you are trying to acheive with this thread? Are you trying to get advice? Are you trying to hang out your DM?

Or are you trying to showcase that you are bunch of kids trying to learn to play roleplaying games without adult supervision?

Mr Beer
2017-11-14, 12:19 AM
I got about half way through before I thought 'Yeah I would stop arguing at this point and simply bail on the game, it's not going to get any better'.

When someone barks orders at you as though you are in the army but in fact you are two individuals engaged in a voluntary activity for fun, that's not worth pursuing.

When you have active hostility from the GM and other players in the group, that's not worth pursuing.

When you have concerns which important to you but are rudely dismissed out of hand, that's not worth pursuing.

I like the way the GM basically admitted that he's messed the game up horribly and is desperately trying to fix his mistakes, while simultaneously telling OP to 'stop whining' in response to concerns about the game. Classic angry jerk syndrome.

Knaight
2017-11-14, 12:32 AM
The group looks dysfunctional - I'm not particularly interested in assigning blame as to why it's dysfunctional, but it looks dysfunctional. I'd advise you to bail, and if the GM was writing here I'd suggest kicking you from the group.

Side note: Between the GM deliberately killing one character and turning them into a ghost, the GM admitting to railroading, and the whole Summer and Winter knight plotline I feel somewhat compelled to point out that Dresden Files RPG is a thing that exists, and that if you want to run a Dresden Files game you can do it without awkwardly sticking it in D&D.


Blue is the only official one as far as I know, but there are rumors of a purple color used to indicate something being suggested is (Lawful) evil.

Blue isn't official so much as widely recognized.

dethkruzer
2017-11-14, 12:48 AM
I'm surprised you've stuck around this long, if that discord log us even slightly indicative of what the atmosphere in your group is like.

Arbane
2017-11-14, 01:03 AM
I'm surprised you've stuck around this long, if that discord log us even slightly indicative of what the atmosphere in your group is like.

Gotta agree. Are these people friends, or just folks you met at the game-store?

I forget where I heard it, but it's a good bit of advice: "Don't play RPGs with someone you wouldn't take a three hour car ride with."

Metahuman1
2017-11-14, 05:44 AM
Ok, first of all, "other player" has done a good job of painting himself as an awful person whom I hope never to cross paths with in any capacity there.





Secondly, to "GM". You had your big chance to fix this. Instead, you threw a fit. You had a little toddler temper tantrum. Insisting that previous character deaths don't count, it was for the story, and that changing a character requires killing them or fundamentally changing the personality (that's what a religion swap IS in this game so don't say it's not.), which boils down to the same thing at the end of the day, all of this? All of this means your group and game falling apart is SQUARELY on you and is SQUARELY your fault. You could simply have let him swap his class levels. You delayed and complained about the delay instead.


To the OP. Stop playing with both these people, it's not worth the time.

Jay R
2017-11-14, 01:07 PM
General rule: If the game is not fun, quit playing it. It doesn't matter why it's not fun. The game isn't going to change. If you're not having fun, quit the game.

In this specific case, we know one other player is enjoying the game. So it won't change. At least one player is supporting the GM. Maybe you're misunderstanding what's happening and being unfair to the GM. Maybe you're completely right and it's a bad game. It doesn't matter which, and you'll never know which. But also, you don't need to know which. If you're not having fun, quit the game.

Segev
2017-11-14, 04:23 PM
Blue is the only official one as far as I know, but there are rumors of a purple color used to indicate something being suggested is (Lawful) evil.

And, of course, black is for Neutral Evil.




To the OP: Yeah, find a different group. You're not going to have fun in this one.

Lunatic Sledge
2017-11-14, 04:28 PM
Yeah, I'm backing what everybody else is saying here. Get out of there. Maybe it's you, maybe it's them (it's probably them) but one way or the other, you and that group are not a good fit. If you're not having fun and you can't find a middle ground, there's no point in fighting it further.

Kane0
2017-11-14, 06:37 PM
Dude, just leave.

Calthropstu
2017-11-15, 01:39 PM
Not exactly blaming you for this, but most civilized worlds and settings frown on necromancy as it is inherently evil and totally messed up. It is pretty much common knowledge/fair to assume that necromancy is illegal in more places than it is legal. I will throw your DM a bone here; playing stupid games generally wins you stupid prizes.



Here is the problem. 99% of the time, a GMPC is a red flag for an awful game/DM. The GMPC is the star, and runs the game, you are along for the ride. Being a wizard and killing powerful creatures and being a wizard is making it worse, so the DM is fiat limiting your power and having their Marty Stu(their grandmother is a red dragon, and convinently an ally of yours. Marty Stu confirmed) railroad the game.

Unless the party needs a 3rd/4th member, there is no excuse for a DMPC, and even then the DMPC has to be used very carefully or things like this happen. Leave the game.

I am running a gm pc in my game as a round out the table thing. It's an oracle who is taking almost only healing spells and abilities. And rushes into combat to smack things with a mace. She is woefully underequipped, and only once affected the story, insisting they not execute prisoners, because I can't imagine a neutral good healer letting helpless people die.

But I see your point. I have a huge amount of input as gm, and if I use that dmpc to force characters to do things it's not fair to pcs who want input into what their characters do.
That's why I went with a true healbot.

Mr Beer
2017-11-15, 07:37 PM
The 3 kinds of NPCs I semi-regularly have adventuring with the party:

1. Heal-bots because no-one wanted that role and it's needed.

2. Temporary party members who are going to be there for a couple of sessions max.

3. Plot advancing NPCs who are going to be there for a while and generally avoid active involvement as much as possible.

None of those are DMNPCs in the problematic sense though. It's when Edgelord McRailRoad flies in on a flapping black cloak, katanas whirling, and then orders the party around in a brooding but contemptuous manner that you know you have a problem.

mehs
2017-11-15, 08:10 PM
I have a reason for being really hesitant to leave. Both of them have been my friends for many years, other player since I was 8 or so, and are quite literally my only friends with dnd being my only real social interaction each week (school, overwatch, and trying to form a dnd group in roll20 not really counting). I would really rather work through the issue than lose only friends and only chance to gain social experience (having aspburger's, a bit more serious for me than most)

The Glyphstone
2017-11-15, 08:17 PM
Friends do not insult and abuse each other like this. If you cannot drop the game without staying friends, they arent really your friends at all.

ErebusVonMori
2017-11-15, 08:27 PM
Find a new group, and the DM a therapist.

War_lord
2017-11-15, 08:37 PM
I have a reason for being really hesitant to leave. Both of them have been my friends for many years, other player since I was 8 or so, and are quite literally my only friends with dnd being my only real social interaction each week (school, overwatch, and trying to form a dnd group in roll20 not really counting). I would really rather work through the issue than lose only friends and only chance to gain social experience (having aspburger's, a bit more serious for me than most)

These people are not your friends if this is a sample of how they treat you.

Kane0
2017-11-15, 08:41 PM
If you don't want to walk away, try finding something else to play or do. Unfortunately D&D just isn't the best choice for some people. Perhaps a LAN party instead?

dethkruzer
2017-11-15, 08:42 PM
Friends do not insult and abuse each other like this. If you cannot drop the game without staying friends, they arent really your friends at all.

This. All I can really say is "this".

Some of the text on that discord log seemed downright abusive, and not even in a "just messing with you a little" way that you might see between some friends. One of the building blocks of friendship is respect. I frankly don't see any of that from the DM or other player.

Knaight
2017-11-15, 08:56 PM
I have a reason for being really hesitant to leave. Both of them have been my friends for many years, other player since I was 8 or so, and are quite literally my only friends with dnd being my only real social interaction each week (school, overwatch, and trying to form a dnd group in roll20 not really counting). I would really rather work through the issue than lose only friends and only chance to gain social experience (having aspburger's, a bit more serious for me than most)

A discord D&D game is hardly more real social interaction than school, and leaving a D&D game doesn't mean having to stop being friends with the people in it. Leave the game, and check your local area's Meetup.com or similar for groups that welcome new people.

Cluedrew
2017-11-15, 10:02 PM
You guys are all friends, great: Get out of the game while you are STILL friends. At the very least this is driving a wedge between you guys.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-11-16, 05:25 AM
This seems like less of a need for gaming advice and more a need for relationship advice. Perhaps this isn't the right forum.

That said, stop being ****ty to each other, sit down, and talk to each other instead of past each other. Take a few days or a week first to cool down and then have a mature conversation about it. Perhaps in person because it's a lot easier to be an ******* on the internet.

Segev
2017-11-16, 11:38 AM
Knowing this is not an easy thing to do, I still advise that you expand your circle of friends.

Join a club at school. Or the band. Join the boy scouts, or a church group. Hang out on some gaming forums and see if there are any gaming conventions where some online friends might meet up together to hang out. Join a sports team.

Surely, you have something you enjoy other than gaming. Find groups dedicated to those activities and join in.

Even if these are great friends, the fact that you feel constrained to stick in something you're not enjoying to maintain their friendship tells me that you don't have ENOUGH friends, and need more hobbies and friends to hang out with.

Mr Beer
2017-11-16, 05:08 PM
Knowing this is not an easy thing to do, I still advise that you expand your circle of friends.

This seems like an imperative.

GreatWyrmGold
2017-11-17, 12:05 PM
My father has a story about a Shadowrun game he played where the GM found a way to kill off his character every session. After a few deaths, my dad started looking for ways to die that would annoy the GM. Once, he blew up his new character's motorcycle (and ammunition, and grenades, and..) in the middle of the GMPC's followers. There were no survivors.
So don't worry--even if things get so bad you can't salvage a fun game out of it, you might find a way to turn this into a gaming story worthy of being told to your kids!




When I was level 3, I cast command undead on a zombie, not knowing that apparently all necromancy is illegal in the town I was in...Then a high level ranger (I think 12-14) came with a group of 20 orcs one or two of which were also high level spellcasters. He came to take me prisoner. The rest of the party (mostly the GM PC) decided to not fight and just hand me over. I feel I need to say that we weren't even on the same plane of existence as when we were low level. After a kangaroo court my character was executed.
Hoo boy.
1. DMs who don't communicate dangers to their players don't get to punish them for ignoring those dangers. If you warn them that it's illegal and they decide the risk is worth it, sure, but...argh.
2. Is there a Super-Persistent Law Enforcement (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperPersistentPredator) trope? Unless necromancy is a top-tier religious/moral offense, I can't think of any reason why they would send high-level officials across planes to catch a guy who used command undead once.
3. You never give players an inescapable kangaroo court execution. Death isn't a punishment--it's an anti-goal, something one plans to avoid. It's fun to try and plan a legal defense, or a jailbreak, or something. A protracted "Rocks fall, mehs in specific dies"?
Death #1, no reason to suspect anything beyond crap-tier DMing.


Then instead of going to the after life, Lucifer had snagged my soul and made me help him . Basically he said that apophis was breaking out of his prison and he wanted me to negotiate a treaty with the 2 fey courts. I went over there and it was going well, until the winter knight killed the (lesser) winter Queen and framed me. Then the winter and summer knight (both cr 22) chased me across 2 or 3 planes of existence. The Sumer knight (level 15 cleric nymph) even summoned a glabrezu on me with planar ally. The glabrezu summoned a vrock on me which I killed easily enough, and later when the glabrezu fought me I ran it off. Then I got the the home of an ally Lucifer told me to go to and fought the summer knight. I was a level 5 wizard rainbow servant 4, but the cleric had nothing to fight a flying invisible enemy while webbed. Somehow.
The DM railroaded you into a fight against creatures a dozen levels above you. This is requiring increasingly ridiculous levels of incompetence to keep Hanlon's Razor sharp.


We then had a nice base(the gold mine the others were enslaved at) I wanted to set up, but GM PC insisted on going back to the material plane (where we were wanted criminals) and he immediately picked up a quest to stop some vampires in London. Just to repeat, we had almost no equipment and he wanted to go hunting vampires in a major city.
More railroading to funnel the PCs into an obvious deathtrap.


There was a fight (4 vampire wolves showed up next round and freed him from halt undead) and eventually GM PC and other player decided to hear what he had to say and let him go. The he came back in the middle of the night and kidnapped me and vampirised me. Even when he took the gag off and I tried to cast teleport, it auto failed because he just put the gag back on (I don't know how that works). And I want to remind you, I was surrounded by 24 outsiders and was glowing like the sun (greater luminous armor) when he kidnapped me.
Here's the deathtrap the DM was aiming for! Big dramatic plot point, deprived of all impact by how forced it was.


As it is now, me letting the vampire go made the god I worship (Anubis) not like me anymore and I have lost my 4 levels of rainbow servant except for the caster level. The GM doesn't even allow retraining so those are just 4 empty levels now.
**** move, DM.


Other partially related grevence is that I am only level 9 still. The glabrezu gave half xp because he ran away and I didn't get any from the knights I beat slash made to run away (which were cr 22). Even then, the GM is making 2 different math errors (and knows it) so that I am still level 9 instead of level 10.
Gggaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh
Okay, very **** move.



Diagnosis: Your DM wants to be a fantasy author on some level but doesn't have the confidence to actually write novels, so he tries to force novels into his adventures. I can see some of these plot twists working in a literary medium, with only one author an a separate audience. Recommended treatment: Encourage the DM to try writing, give him positive feedback and constructive criticism on his drafts, and have him take a break from DMing.
Or leave, but loads of people have suggested that and you seem reluctant to do so.




Not exactly blaming you for this, but most civilized worlds and settings frown on necromancy as it is inherently evil and totally messed up. It is pretty much common knowledge/fair to assume that necromancy is illegal in more places than it is legal. I will throw your DM a bone here; playing stupid games generally wins you stupid prizes.
I operate under the assumption that there is necromancy and there is Necromancy, spells that happen to be in the necromancy school and spells which deserve the sinister connotations it is associated with. Gentle repose, spectral hand, and the many necromancy spells used to fight undead (which command undead is arguably one of) shouldn't be treated the same as animate dead, slay living, or scare.

Esprit15
2017-11-17, 01:48 PM
Having been in a feud with a DM before, that had nothing on this. This is just abusive and ridiculous. Ditch them while you can still stand each other.

Metahuman1
2017-11-17, 11:46 PM
If your determined to not ditch them (Frankly there is again as I see it no good reason NOT to just find another group for social interaction purposes.)

Consider suggesting FATE to the DM. Tell him the game system is rules light, so easier to run and keep track of, and is geared in such a way that a lot of the sort of stuff he wants to do narratively would just flat fit better AND be easier to run.




The reason I'm not suggesting playing a lower power character is cause clearly the DM wants that to make brazen railroading easier for himself with out having to do the work to achieve system mastery needed for that. Also, more importantly, because you did offer, he's stymied that offer, clearly deliberately by his own admission, and is complaining about the fact that your not doing something he hast actively sought to prevent you from doing.

Calthropstu
2017-11-20, 08:41 AM
Having been in a feud with a DM before, that had nothing on this. This is just abusive and ridiculous. Ditch them while you can still stand each other.

Oh, I can top it easily, culminating in an actual physical confrontation when I left the game forever (He tackled me because I refused to give him my character sheet as I left) There are some seriously huge jerks out there.

War_lord
2017-11-20, 01:25 PM
Yeah, some people really can't handle the leadership role being the DM gives them and the power goes right to their head.

Ezeze
2017-11-20, 02:20 PM
A lot of what has already been said about the GM being a d***waffle is true, but I've got to admonish you, Mehs.

It's really awful to present one side of what is obviously a dysfunctional dynamic to an audience under the guise of 'looking for advice' when what you really wanted was to be told that you are in the right.

You also then insisted that your 'friend' and the other person you are playing with read the thread, holding up these "neutral third parties" who badmouthed him based on half of a story as proof of your divine right-ness and non-culpability. You even posted private chat logs - I can only assume without the permission of the people involved, given that one of the participants has already disclaimed this whole mess and the other insists he hasn't read this thread.



You aren't looking to fix the situation. You are looking to publically cow and embarrass people you call your friends in order to force them to play your game the way you want them to. This is not how a good person behaves.

Shame on you.

Mr Beer
2017-11-20, 03:27 PM
Oh, I can top it easily, culminating in an actual physical confrontation when I left the game forever (He tackled me because I refused to give him my character sheet as I left) There are some seriously huge jerks out there.

Ha haha haha, what the hell man?!

Calthropstu
2017-11-20, 09:40 PM
Ha haha haha, what the hell man?!

Yeah, looking back at it, I should have left that game long before I did. The dm was a major prick, as were the players. Pvp was quite regular, it featured a dmpc, my swanmay psion got raped by another pc gm ruled I got pregnant, and when I used haste (thanks to the super artifact our gm gave us giving us all spellfire-like powers which charged us each day) to speed up the process, it was ruled my baby (who now also had the spellfire) exploded due to the magical aging haste caused giving it 365d8 charge points... each charge doing 1d8 points of damage. No save. The haste leveled the city and killed me. So yeah... It was really really bad. When I called it quits he demanded I give him my character sheet and I just kept walking. He tackled me from behind... so I ate it. Sucks cuz I really liked that character too. A swanmay 2e psychoportative psionicist. She had just gotten enough power points to travel between planets too.

Metahuman1
2017-11-22, 01:07 AM
Yeah, looking back at it, I should have left that game long before I did. The dm was a major prick, as were the players. Pvp was quite regular, it featured a dmpc, my swanmay psion got raped by another pc gm ruled I got pregnant, and when I used haste (thanks to the super artifact our gm gave us giving us all spellfire-like powers which charged us each day) to speed up the process, it was ruled my baby (who now also had the spellfire) exploded due to the magical aging haste caused giving it 365d8 charge points... each charge doing 1d8 points of damage. No save. The haste leveled the city and killed me. So yeah... It was really really bad. When I called it quits he demanded I give him my character sheet and I just kept walking. He tackled me from behind... so I ate it. Sucks cuz I really liked that character too. A swanmay 2e psychoportative psionicist. She had just gotten enough power points to travel between planets too.

May he never, ever, ever know how insanely lucky he was that it wasn't me he tried that last bit with. He would likely NOT have liked what happened next, and not just cause he wouldn't have gotten the sheet, either.

The Glyphstone
2017-11-22, 01:20 AM
I think the saga of Lanky_Bugger will still win any 'worst DM posted about on this forum' contest.

dethkruzer
2017-11-22, 01:26 AM
I think the saga of Lanky_Bugger will still win any 'worst DM posted about on this forum' contest.

Was this the time he got stabbed? Or was this some other instance?

Mystic Muse
2017-11-22, 01:50 AM
Was this the time he got stabbed? Or was this some other instance?

I believe the first time, as there's some debate over whether the stabbing ever happened, or if it was someone pretending to be Lanky.

Metahuman1
2017-11-22, 01:57 AM
The who of who what now?

Rater202
2017-11-22, 05:53 AM
The who of who what now?

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?23784-I-think-I-just-dealt-with-the-worst-gaming-session)

Cluedrew
2017-11-22, 08:23 AM
I think the saga of Lanky_Bugger will still win any 'worst DM posted about on this forum' contest.Hmm... maybe, the other contender of course being Marty Sue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275152-What-am-I-supposed-to-do). Its like the turtles, the stupid goes all the way down.

Also I partially agree with Ezeze's statement, dragging them out to "see the light" or whatever Mehs intended was not the way to handle this situation. Even if it was well intentioned people are never going to react well to, "I have been gathering allies against you", which it came across as, and for reasons I don't blame them for.

dethkruzer
2017-11-22, 08:47 AM
Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?23784-I-think-I-just-dealt-with-the-worst-gaming-session)

oh yeah, now I remember this one, I guess my brain most have subconsciously blocked it due to the sheer amount of stupid involved with PsychoDM.

The Glyphstone
2017-11-22, 10:39 AM
Yeah, Marty Stu and PsychoDM sort of transcend the threshold into mind-breaking eldritch horrors level of bad. Lanky Bugger at least remains relatable.

Velaryon
2017-11-22, 03:24 PM
To the OP: There comes a certain point where you ought to consider whether your gaming styles are fundamentally incompatible with the others in your group, even if they are your friends. If you want to leave the game but still want to remain friends, maybe there are other activities you can do with them? Board games, video games, going to movies, etc. I'll stop short of "you should leave this game" like others have, but I do think that option should be on the table at least.

As far as resolving the in-game issues, I agree with Ezeze and Cluedrew that "look at all these strangers who agree with me that you're wrong" is a poor way to resolve an issue. Even if that wasn't how you intended it, it's clear from the chat log you posted that that's how the DM sees your action. If you want to try and meet them halfway, consider switching to a new, less powerful character, if you think you can still have fun that way. Also, you should probably stop taking advice from GMPC's, since it hasn't worked out for you so far.

You mentioned that you have Aspergers, which I think some folks may have missed when reading your post. If your D&D group knows this about you and understands what it means, it ought to earn you a bit of leeway and understanding when it comes to social situations. If they know this about you but don't appreciate what it means, then it might be helpful for you to show them some resources and try to explain what it means to you and how it affects your social skills. Finally, as someone else mentioned, online D&D barely counts as social interaction, and I hope you can supplement this practice with some in-person interactions, even if that's also just playing D&D.

RPG Factory
2017-11-22, 03:33 PM
...can you roll a 6 to cast a silence spell on the DM :)