Gishing it up, post-XGtE

[lesbiasparrow]

Before we start, let me clarify that my preferred playstyle is hitting things with a sword in combat, possibly in a way that includes built-in advantages from having a casting class, and using a variety of arcane spells to add utility in social and exploration encounters. I know other people use "gish" to talk more about buffing yourself, but I hate to lose a round when I could be rolling damage dice. I like hitting things with swords.

So:


blades bard, with or without a level of Hexblade to reduce MAD
hexblade (possibly with feat investment for heavy weapons once you take the blade pact)
conquest paladin, because that's some tasty spell list
bladesinger using exciting new spells (assuming you're not in PHB+1 land)
my old favorite: fighter 1/fiendish bladelock X
presumably some other stuff too that doesn't sound as awesome to me


What's the best?

[Caelic]

I think that's going to take some time to work out.

Paladin builds are likely to stay on top for raw burst damage, possibly leavened with Hexblade or Celestial Soul.

Hexblade is going to be a prefix to a LOT of Charisma-based builds. Blade bards seem to be the flavor of the moment, but I think we'll also see Paladin builds. Hexblade/Paladin of Conquest Polearm Master has some formidable battlefield control potential, but may not really count as a "gish" given the relatively sparse arcane spellcasting.

Sorcadins aren't going to go away, either; Divine Soul adds a whole lot of versatility to an already-strong build.

Don't overlook old favorites. Vengeance Paladin still has a lot to recommend it in conjunction with some of the new features.

[Asmotherion]

Well, Hexblade is now an optimisation reality.

I used to go 3 levels of Warlock for pact of the tome to use Shillelagh for a Quarterstaff in the few occasions I used to Gish (as I always play a part Warlock either way), so from my point of view, things have improved. It oppens up a lot of Gish builds for Cha Casters.

Wis Casters always had melee options; They could either be part druid to become a bulky beast/use Shillelagh, or be a Cleric and somehow get proficiency in Martial weapons and Heavy Armor, and at the same time have synergy with their spells in melee combat, thus become competant in melee indirectly. Either way, they were one feat/multiclass level dip away from grabbing shillelagh and adding Wisdom to the damage of a d8 weapon.

Cha caster's only option for a true Gish build that relied on their spellasting stat was the Tome-lock grabbing shillelagh trick. Hexblade balances this up by making the requirement of a Cha Gish from 3 levels dip to 1. This means less investment for someone not interested to make a true Warlock (but still interested into making a Cha Gish) and yet an interesting Patron option for someone actually interested into playing a Warlock.



I can honestly see a lot of builds comming up. From a simple yet thematic: Hexblade Warlock 2, Eldritch Knight Fighter 11, Shadow Sorcerer 7. Or a purer Hexblade Warlock 12/Shadow Sorcerer 8. Perhaps with some levels of Oathbreaker Paladin as a Hexblade 7/Paladin 7/Shadow Sorcerer 6, witch gives tons of synergy among each others abilities. Then there are Bardlocks, who will also be very powerfull. Finally there are other classed that, wile not Cha Casters or Cha based directly, can fullfil a very diferent role thanks to Hexblade;

[lesbiasparrow]

I really wish there had been more support for a sorcerer gish. I would love to play a character who hit things really hard with a sword (look, I'm a simple woman) but got into all kinds of subtle Shatter/Phantasmal Force/Disguise Self+Actor shenanigans. You can get most of the way there with a warlock and some smart casting, plus Mask of Many Faces is handy, but Subtle Spell, man. It would be so useful in the kinds of games I like to play.

Maybe...maybe I should consider playing a character who doesn't hit things really hard with a sword?

[8wGremlin]

Githyanki War Wizard 2 /???

Githyanki - they get medium armour, and +2 str, +1 int, and a skill or tool proficiency.
War Wizard - they get +2 reaction AC, but can only cast cantrips after.

[Throne12]

I really wish there had been more support for a sorcerer gish. I would love to play a character who hit things really hard with a sword (look, I'm a simple woman) but got into all kinds of subtle Shatter/Phantasmal Force/Disguise Self+Actor shenanigans. You can get most of the way there with a warlock and some smart casting, plus Mask of Many Faces is handy, but Subtle Spell, man. It would be so useful in the kinds of games I like to play.

Maybe...maybe I should consider playing a character who doesn't hit things really hard with a sword?

Sorcerer has shadow blade that starts out doing 2d8 and you can use your Dex to attack over str . Go v-human grab feat mobile run cast GFB or BB hit with shadow blade then quicken it and do the action again them run away. If you go dragon sorcerer you get a nice AC and your still a fullcaster.

[Aett_Thorn]

Going to have to still throw out the Arcana Cleric here. Might not be AL-legal without some modifications, but you've got medium armor and shields right off the bat, can take some SCAG weapon cantrips for damage, and now Word of Radiance for some melee AoE goodness, and you're still very, very useful out of combat, providing the party with good utility spells.

[jaappleton]

A note about War Wizard, since many are overlooking it:

The feature to allow you to use a Reaction to boost your AC is now only against the triggering attack. It’s not until the start of your next turn.

So in that respect, the Shield spell and Defensive Duelist are superior.

The real prize about that feature is the bonus to saving throws.

Now, I’m currently AFB but the restricted to Cantrips aspect, is that only for Spells you cast? Nothing in the wording prevents you from stabbing somebody, right?

[Chef Goldblum]

The wording says "you can't cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn." So it looks like you are more than welcome to do some stabbing.

[DracoKnight]

Now, I’m currently AFB but the restricted to Cantrips aspect, is that only for Spells you cast? Nothing in the wording prevents you from stabbing somebody, right?


The wording says "you can't cast spells other than cantrips until the end of your next turn." So it looks like you are more than welcome to do some stabbing.

So just have shadow blade cast and ready to use with GFB/BB prior to using Arcane Deflection :smallbiggrin:

[miburo]

Another potentially interesting option for non-AL folks is Hexblade 1/Lore Bard X. Likely Variant Human with Warcaster at level 1, using a martial weapon and a shield. Grab Booming Blade (or Greenflame Blade) and Eldritch Blast for cantrips. Take Haste and either Fireball or Lightning Bolt as magical secrets at level 7 (Bard level 6). You now have a good balance of scalable melee damage, decent ranged attacks and AoE, and all the debuffing, jack-of-all-trades goodness that a Bard has to offer.

Though I'd probably still play a Hexblade/Swords Bard because it looks darn cool. :smallamused:

Edit: For a Hexblade Lore Bard, Tenser's Transformation makes a a potentially good magical secret as well. For both Swords Bard and Lore Bards, Steel Wind Strike and Shadow Blade are also good options.

[Mjolnirbear]

So, uh, can Shadow Blade be Twinned? Because that would just a tad insane. Insanely awesome. But insane.

[miburo]

So, uh, can Shadow Blade be Twinned? Because that would just a tad insane. Insanely awesome. But insane.

Nope, unfortunately. It has a range of "Self" and those spells cannot be twinned

[skaddix]

Another potentially interesting option for non-AL folks is Hexblade 1/Lore Bard X. Likely Variant Human with Warcaster at level 1, using a martial weapon and a shield. Grab Booming Blade (or Greenflame Blade) and Eldritch Blast for cantrips. Take Haste and either Fireball or Lightning Bolt as magical secrets at level 7 (Bard level 6). You now have a good balance of scalable melee damage, decent ranged attacks and AoE, and all the debuffing, jack-of-all-trades goodness that a Bard has to offer.

Though I'd probably still play a Hexblade/Swords Bard because it looks darn cool. :smallamused:

Edit: For a Hexblade Lore Bard, Tenser's Transformation makes a a potentially good magical secret as well. For both Swords Bard and Lore Bards, Steel Wind Strike and Shadow Blade are also good options.

I was looking at that myself what do you think the cost is going 3 Hexblade trading an ASI and Magical Secrets for pact of the blade some bonus low level spells?

1st MS: Haste, Fireball, Healing Spirit, Lightning Bolt? Shadow Blade can now be acquired with Warlock
2nd MS: Steel Wind Strike, then pick either Shadow of Moil or Guardian of Nature
3rd MS: Tenser's Transformation, Destructive Wave?

And if you go
4th MS: WISH, ?????