Idea for a lv. 1 AoE spell...

[samcifer]

I'm still a bit sad that there are no is no good AoE spell at lv. 1, so I decided to make up one of my own...

Thunder Burst
CT: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of metal shavings)
Duration Instantaneous

A loud boom of thunder spreads out in a 10 foot radius from a point you can see within range. All creatures within the area of effect make a CON save or take 1d4 thunder damage.
(no damage on a save).
At higher levels: Increase the damage by 1d6 for each level above level 1.

(I'm considering making it a 1d6, but wonder if that would be too powerful for a first level spell.)

[Burnteyes]

Thunderwave
Acid Splash (cantrip)
Hail of Thorns
Arms of Hadar

..all come to mind pretty quickly. There might be others, but this covers Wiz, Warlock, Ranger and Sorcerer.

Not sure what class you are think of this spell for, but all of the above do more damage IIRC.

Edit- I just realize that you want to cast out to 60 ft... and the ones I said aren't specifically AoE but they do effect an area.

[samcifer]

Thunderwave
Acid Splash (cantrip)
Hail of Thorns
Arms of Hadar

..all come to mind pretty quickly. There might be others, but this covers Wiz, Warlock, Ranger and Sorcerer.

Not sure what class you are think of this spell for, but all of the above do more damage IIRC.

Edit- I just realize that you want to cast out to 60 ft... and the ones I said aren't specifically AoE but they do effect an area.

I was thinking of it being for the following classes:

Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard and maybe Warlock. And yes, I was thinking of a ranged AoE, which is a type of spell absent from lv. 1 spellcasting for all classes. The only AoEs available to a lv. 1 caster are all self-centered.

[JackPhoenix]

I was thinking of it being for the following classes:

Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard and maybe Warlock. And yes, I was thinking of a ranged AoE, which is a type of spell absent from lv. 1 spellcasting for all classes. The only AoEs available to a lv. 1 caster are all self-centered.

Ice Knife
Sleep

[samcifer]

Ice Knife
Sleep

Sleep is useless in my homebrewed campaign. It has only managed to put down a single enemy so far in battle, and out of battle it only put a poisonous spider to sleep that was attacking an npc who ended up turning into a thing-esque zombie mutant on us. Ice knife has too small an AoE to be useful against spread out foes.

[Burnteyes]

Ice Knife
Sleep

Faerie Fire
Alarm
Bane
Bless
Color Spray
Compelled Duel
Detect Good and Evil
Feather Fall
Grease
Guiding Bolt
Light
(various charms and hold)
Protection from Good and Evil
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith
Vicious Mockery
(Bardic Inspiration)

The bolded are AoE or multiple targets in the case of Bane.

I guess I'm seeing a solution in search of a problem.

OP- If you have players asking for it as a DM, feel free to customize your home game with your spell. It seems reasonable and not overpowered. If you are a player looking for a new spell, I'm of the opinion you just need to think outside the box a little more.

[rbstr]

I guess if this is a thing you need to have something like a 10ft radius of 2d6 might be good, or 3d4?
What you've listed just seems useless, 1d4, no damage on a save? That's really bad.

Maybe you're trying to balance against Ice Knife?
Sure it has a smaller radius and does 2d6 but it also can hit one target for 1d10.

[Burnteyes]

Sleep is useless in my homebrewed campaign. It has only managed to put down a single enemy so far in battle, and out of battle it only put a poisonous spider to sleep that was attacking an npc who ended up turning into a thing-esque zombie mutant on us. Ice knife has too small an AoE to be useful against spread out foes.

I didn't see this prior to my post.

Again, if your players are calling for it, your spell certainly isn't over powered.

However, there are some other options. Level up, think outside the box, run away, or get crafty.

As a DM you might be scaling the encounters wrong if your L1 players aren't succeeding.

Have any of them actually died? If so how many?

If none, I still struggle to understand why you need it, but it is your home game so do as you please.

[samcifer]

I guess if this is a thing you need to have something like a 10ft radius of 2d6 might be good, or 3d4?
What you've listed just seems useless, 1d4, no damage on a save? That's really bad.

Maybe you're trying to balance against Ice Knife?
Sure it has a smaller radius and does 2d6 but it also can hit one target for 1d10.

I intended it to be weak enough to be actually considered by WOtC, who wouldn't want a strong damaging AoE at first level, it would seem, based on how they designed AoE damage spells. I just want lv. 1 to 3 characters to have a damaging AoE spell to work with. I suppose 1d6 thunder damage would be better, but opted for 1d4 to keep it from being overpowered, in their mindset.

[Burnteyes]

I intended it to be weak enough to be actually considered by WOtC, who wouldn't want a strong damaging AoE at first level, it would seem, based on how they designed AoE damage spells. I just want lv. 1 to 3 characters to have a damaging AoE spell to work with. I suppose 1d6 thunder damage would be better, but opted for 1d4 to keep it from being overpowered, in their mindset.

Level 1-3 characters? If so there are a ton of those.

Also, are you talking about WOtC adding in this spell? As that is a completely different discussion that a specific home use spell.

So, in order to be more helpful from this end it would help if you would clarify a few items.

Are you trying to produce a single AoE spell that will be published by WOtC or is this for your personal home brew?

If for personal home brew, is this something your players are asking for?

If they are not asking for it, is it something you are wanting to add?

Can you explain the specifics of your home campaign that seem to merit it?

There are a lot of odd pieces here that don't make sense and it could be entirely a reader issue, but clarification would help.

[lunaticfringe]

I would probably up the damage to d6, remove Cleric because AoE blasting doesn't fit base Cleric, Add Warlock, and change the Damage type because of Shatter. It's a level 2 spell but better in every way.

[samcifer]

Level 1-3 characters? If so there are a ton of those.

Also, are you talking about WOtC adding in this spell? As that is a completely different discussion that a specific home use spell.

So, in order to be more helpful from this end it would help if you would clarify a few items.

Are you trying to produce a single AoE spell that will be published by WOtC or is this for your personal home brew?

If for personal home brew, is this something your players are asking for?

If they are not asking for it, is it something you are wanting to add?

Can you explain the specifics of your home campaign that seem to merit it?

There are a lot of odd pieces here that don't make sense and it could be entirely a reader issue, but clarification would help.

I just want it to [I]seem[I] like a legal spell. I have no illusions my idea will even remotely be considered by them for adding to official content, but am basing this off of what they would likely consider to be usable without being overpowered for the first three levels of a character's career to use.

[Kane0]

I’d probably look at adapting something like Gedlee’s Electric Loop or Frostfall. An acid spell would probably be the best fit though, its got the least competition in the 1st level spell selection. Radiant and Necrotic too to a lesser extent.

As long as Burning Hands is a valid choice next to whatever you make it’ll be fine.

[samcifer]

I would probably up the damage to d6, remove Cleric because AoE blasting doesn't fit base Cleric, Add Warlock, and change the Damage type because of Shatter. It's a level 2 spell but better in every way.

Okay, here's a revised version:

Thunder Burst - Level 1 evocation
CT: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of metal shavings)
Duration Instantaneous

A bolt of lightning strikes the ground, the energy of the bolt spreading out in a 10 foot radius from a point you can see within range. All creatures within the area of effect make a CON save or take 1d6 lightning damage.
(no damage on a save).
At higher levels: Increase the damage by 1d6 for each level above level 1.

- For the following classes: Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

[Burnteyes]

I just want it to [I]seem[I] like a legal spell. I have no illusions my idea will even remotely be considered by them for adding to official content, but am basing this off of what they would likely consider to be usable without being overpowered for the first three levels of a character's career to use.


Okay, here's a revised version:

Thunder Burst - Level 1 evocation
CT: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of metal shavings)
Duration Instantaneous

A bolt of lightning strikes the ground, the energy of the bolt spreading out in a 10 foot radius from a point you can see within range. All creatures within the area of effect make a CON save or take 1d6 lightning damage.
(no damage on a save).
At higher levels: Increase the damage by 1d6 for each level above level 1.

- For the following classes: Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

Okay, well based on what you've told me this really appears to be a solution in search of a problem.

That said as a sorcerer, Witch Bolt scales 1d12 and it can hit two targets with Metamagic at 3rd. Warlock scales, and why wouldn't you cast it a your highest slot.

AoE above L1 there are too many to list and I would still take Faerie Fire over yours, personally as well as some others I listed above. Frankly I'm taking Thunderwave as a damage spell before yours with a push and 2d8 damage or half on non-save over that one, but variety is the spice of life. As a Warlock, I'm not scaling a 1d6 spell with my limited number of spells.

Otherwise,it's not a horrible spell, and the damage and scaling seem about right.

[samcifer]

Okay, well based on what you've told me this really appears to be a solution in search of a problem.

That said as a sorcerer, Witch Bolt scales 1d12 and it can hit two targets with Metamagic at 3rd. Warlock scales, and why wouldn't you cast it a your highest slot.

AoE above L1 there are too many to list and I would still take Faerie Fire over yours, personally as well as some others I listed above. Frankly I'm taking Thunderwave as a damage spell before yours with a push and 2d8 damage or half on non-save over that one, but variety is the spice of life. As a Warlock, I'm not scaling a 1d6 spell with my limited number of spells.

Otherwise,it's not a horrible spell, and the damage and scaling seem about right.

Well, there's no AoE damaging spell at lv. 1 other than the small burst for Ice Knife. Magic Missile can hit up to three targets, true, but as for a fireball/vitriolic sphere/sunbeam type of power that causes damage in an area rather than directly hitting targets, there's not really anything good along those lines in published materials (at least not officially released content), so I thought up a spell that would do what I wanted it to do, but be low enough on damage to be worthy of being considered useable from a legal play standpoint. As a lv. 1 spell, the damage should be small to avoid being overpowered for a first level spell so you're doing damage, but not nuking everything and leaving the rest of the party nothing to hit. I intended it to be a multi-hit AoE blaster type of spell as there isn't anything quite like it at first level in the legal content.

[lunaticfringe]

Sorry, 2d6 and feel free to add a rider effect. Without a rider 2d8 seems appropriate. Even @ 2d8 it will equal Shatter if upcast.

2d6 & targets wearing metal armor have disadvantage on saves. Half on a fail.

[samcifer]

Sorry, 2d6 and feel free to add a rider effect. Without a rider 2d8 seems appropriate. Even @ 2d8 it will equal Shatter if upcast.

2d6 & targets wearing metal armor have disadvantage on saves. Half on a fail.

Okay then, round 3:

Thunder Burst - Level 1 evocation
CT: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of metal shavings)
Duration Instantaneous

A bolt of lightning strikes the ground, the energy of the bolt spreading out in a 10 foot radius from a point you can see within range. All creatures within the area of effect make a CON save or take 2d6 lightning damage, or half as much damage on a save.
At higher levels: Increase the damage by 1d6 for each level above level 1.

- For the following classes: Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

[lunaticfringe]

It works. I think it's a bit weak but that is what you wanted, correct?

[JackPhoenix]

Well, there's no AoE damaging spell at lv. 1 other than the small burst for Ice Knife. Magic Missile can hit up to three targets, true, but as for a fireball/vitriolic sphere/sunbeam type of power that causes damage in an area rather than directly hitting targets, there's not really anything good along those lines in published materials (at least not officially released content), so I thought up a spell that would do what I wanted it to do, but be low enough on damage to be worthy of being considered useable from a legal play standpoint. As a lv. 1 spell, the damage should be small to avoid being overpowered for a first level spell so you're doing damage, but not nuking everything and leaving the rest of the party nothing to hit. I intended it to be a multi-hit AoE blaster type of spell as there isn't anything quite like it at first level in the legal content.

There *are* AoE damaging spells at level 1. You just don't like them.

I'm not sure what do you mean by the "usable from a legal play standpoint". It's your game, you can do whatever you want. It's a homebrew, it won't ever be "legal" in AL or RAW, no-homebrew game, no matter how balanced you make it.

[samcifer]

There *are* AoE damaging spells at level 1. You just don't like them.

I'm not sure what do you mean by the "usable from a legal play standpoint". It's your game, you can do whatever you want. It's a homebrew, it won't ever be "legal" in AL or RAW, no-homebrew game, no matter how balanced you make it.

I mean no 8d6 level damage at lv. 1, kind of damage like I'm sure some people would like to have right away. I think at first level, the game's developers don't want players to be able to do much mass damage like that, so I was intentionally under-powered it for it to be the kind of spell they'd look at and say, 'yeah, that would be okay to use. It's not too powerful for such a low level.' or some such. I'm trying to make a spell that 'could' be legal, even though it's a homebrewed spell.

[Burnteyes]

This thread is starting to feel a little trolly.

What is I'll take magic missiles with 1d4+1 x3 for the automatic hit always please, Alex.

Or Witch Bolt that I can lock in and rehit with d12 after the level xleveld12 scaling.

Or Thunderbolt with the push, scaling and 1d8.

Or Faerie Fire which helps the party immensely

Or Hellish Rebuke which scales 1d10 after 2d10 at 1st as a reaction

[samcifer]

This thread is starting to feel a little trolly.

What is I'll take magic missiles with 1d4+1 x3 for the automatic hit always please, Alex.

Or Witch Bolt that I can lock in and rehit with d12 after the level xleveld12 scaling.

Or Thunderbolt with the push, scaling and 1d8.

Or Faerie Fire which helps the party immensely

Or Hellish Rebuke which scales 1d10 after 2d10 at 1st as a reaction

*bangs head repeatedly against countertop of his work station* (yes, I'm currently at work.)

I just like the idea of a ranged AoE spell that does damage that can be used at lv. 1. Why is that so hard to get? The reasons I made it week is so that no one can gripe about it being overpowered. People like Mike Meryls don't want players nuking a whole group of npc foes with a single spell at level 1, so that's why I designed this spell that way, but even that doesn't seem to be good enough. *sigh* It's been a really bad day at work here. I'll just say it again:

I just want a ranged AoE damage spell for a level one blaster-type spellcaster as there is no spell that does this except ice knife, and that only has a five foot radius for the explosion with damage effect. I'd just like to make a sphere-of damage at range at level one. Sorry to be an a****** about it, but why is this so hard to get? There's no level one ranged AoE damage spell like the one I'm suggesting, is all.

[Kane0]

Cold Snap
1st Level Evocation (Druid, Sorc, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Instantaneous

Select a point you can see within range. A 5 foot radius area around this point becomes subject to a sudden chill. All creatures within the area must make a Constitution saving throw against your Spell DC or take 2d6 Cold damage.

At higher levels: Increase the damage by 2d6 for spell level above 1st.

Better range and area than burning hands, comparable damage type, less damage.


Putrid Haze
1st Level Transmutation (Cleric, Druid, Sorc, Warlock, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute

You target one fresh or decomposing corpse you can see within range. A toxic cloud spills forth in a 10 foot radius from the corpse, poisoning those nearby. Any creature that starts its turn within this area must takes 1d10 poison damage, or half if they succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell DC.
Creatures that fail this saving throw are also poisoned until the start of their next turn.

At higher levels: Increase the damage by 1d10 for each spell level above 1st

Excellent range and area plus a rider, pays with a target condition, concentration and low damage

Irradiate
1st Level Evocation (Warlock, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Instantaneous

Select a point you can see within range. A 5 foot radius around this point is bathed in green light which kills off all nonmagical plant life. Creatures caught within the area take 1d4 Radiant and 1d4 Necrotic damage, or half if they succeed on a Constitution Saving Throw against your Spell DC. The area this spell effects is effectively salted and remains barren for up to one year.

At higher levels: The radius increases by 5 feet for every spell level above 1st.

Low damage, but carries the utility of unusual damage types and being utterly lethal to local flora.

[LordEntrails]

imo, first level spells shouldn't be damaging AoE spells like you are wanting. To easy to get rid of multiple CR 1/8's that way and those types of mooks are too important for the first 3 fights of a character's career.

You campaign, do what you want, but just understand there are multiple reasons there are no spells like what you are wanting.

[Kane0]

Goblins have an average 7 HP, kobolds 5.
Burning hands does an average 10.5 damage on a fail, Thunderwave 9. Given the area suppose maybe 2-3 targets?

If we assume 3-4 targets for a ranged AoE all you need is about 5 or so damage on a fail and everything should be fine.

[samcifer]

Goblins have an average 7 HP, kobolds 5.
Burning hands does an average 10.5 damage on a fail, Thunderwave 9. Given the area suppose maybe 2-3 targets?

If we assume 3-4 targets for a ranged AoE all you need is about 5 or so damage on a fail and everything should be fine.

Which is why I originally went with a 1d4 for damage.

[Kane0]

2d4 and 2d6 are both fine, as are 1d8 and 1d10. Thunderwave also carries a rider, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

[rbstr]

Which is why I originally went with a 1d4 for damage.

Right and that's only 2.5 damage per. If it does nothing on a save that's pretty pitiful. Even half on a save it's low.

You should be able to kill a few kobolds with it if you roll moderately well. Is kinda the point. You only get a couple spells at those lower levels, they should still count for something!

[lunaticfringe]

Right and that's only 2.5 damage per. If it does nothing on a save that's pretty pitiful. Even half on a save it's low.

You should be able to kill a few kobolds with it if you roll moderately well. Is kinda the point. You only get a couple spells at those lower levels, they should still count for something!

Indeed. This has good range though, I think that's the hang up.

I saved the party by rolling a 15 on Thunderwave, murdering all the gobbos in one Action. The Bugbear, however, was pissed and one shotted me.

[samcifer]

Indeed. This has good range though, I think that's the hang up.

I saved the party by rolling a 15 on Thunderwave, murdering all the gobbos in one Action. The Bugbear, however, was pissed and one shotted me.

I could reduce the range to 30 feet.

[Kane0]

Standard action, instantaneous, 30 range, 10' radius, 1d4 Lightning and 1d4 Thunder damage with CON half and no rider sounds good.
If you increase both by 1d4 per level and it would scale pretty well too.

[Ganymede]

Earth Tremor in Xanathar's is an AOE 1st level spell.

Why not use that spell as a template?

[samcifer]

Well, how about this?

Thunder Burst - Level 1 evocation
CT: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of metal shavings)
Duration Instantaneous

A bolt of lightning strikes the ground, the energy of the bolt spreading out in a 10 foot radius from a point you can see within range. All creatures within the area of effect make a CON save or take 1d4 lightning damage plus 1d4 thunder damage, or half as much damage on a save.
At higher levels: Increase the damage by 1d4 of each type for each level above level 1.

[Kane0]

Works for me.

[Dalebert]

imo, first level spells shouldn't be damaging AoE spells like you are wanting. To easy to get rid of multiple CR 1/8's that way and those types of mooks are too important for the first 3 fights of a character's career.

You campaign, do what you want, but just understand there are multiple reasons there are no spells like what you are wanting.

I'm personally in this camp. Spells scale up along with certain class features at certain advances in levels. Notice when many archetypes are getting something really cool, casters are just getting access to a new level of spells that expands their capabilities. Wizard archetypes start at level 2 and are generally fairly weak compared to level 3 archetypal abilities of other classes. That's because they get level 2 spells at 3. Sorcs get MM at 3 but it's still extremely limited by their points. Access to lvl 2 spells is a big jump in power (for a tier 1). Besides preventing you having against super easy kobolds and stirges and stuff at the early levels, having that at level 1 would let you do AoE much more casually even at higher levels because any slot can do it, even your most abundant ones--level 1s. You may as well be a fighter saying "I just want access to my level 3 archetyp abilities at level 1, like crits on 19s or superiority dice. That's all."

AoE spells at 1st level exist but seem intentionally very limited in both area and range. There's always a trade-off. Burning Hands and Thunderwave have 0 range but okay area. Ice Knife has range but very limited in area and possibility of no dmg. If you get both, I think you've ventured into the level 2 zone. If you get really decent dmg also, you've now ventured into tier 2 zone, e.g. fireball and lightning bolt. Those spells are intentionally a jump in power to help you deal with significantly greater tier 2 threats.

In short, I know you want it but you're really not supposed to get it... yet. But as LE said, it's your campaign. Just my 25 cents.