DM Advice: House Rule for Polymorph/Shapechange

[DM7581]

Hey all.

I would say that I am a bit experienced as a player and DM. Started gaming some 20+ years ago, mostly as the DM. I wanted to pick the brain of some other DMs as well as players to see how a house rule may feel. Give me some honest opinions.

Obviously, Polymorph, True Polymorph, and Shapechange, to me, cause some balance issues in game. When I can have a single player turn into what would normally be a formidable creature that approaches the abilities of the entire party, it puts me in a position to either increase encounter difficulty because of the players who can do this or simply letting what would be important encounters now become trivial.

I hate a boss fight to be little more than a 1-2 round beat down, and increasing encounter difficulty usually comes at the expense of other players who lack such abilities.

Here is what I propose, which is quite simple:

The limit of what you can turn into is basically any creature (following the normal restrictions of the creature type, per each spell) whose HD is equal to or less than your HD or level OR whose CR is equal to or less than HALF your HD or level, whichever is lower.

This would mean that a level 20 caster cannot simply turn into a Pit Fiend or a handful of ancient dragons, but something more moderate. There are plenty of CR 10 creatures that would prove useful even at level 20.

Polymorph at level 8 basically lets you turn into T-Rex. This would delay that until level 16. The strongest dragon that one could hope to become would be a young red/gold dragon (CR 10), which is still capable of multiple attacks, breath weapon, flight, and still an impressive amount of hit points.

I perused some other CR 8-10 monsters and they all seem quite fitting for that level, and still strong without being too weak to consider the spell as an option.

What are your thoughts on this? Is it too nerfing of a caster who has spent his career chasing such power, or would it be a fair compromise to not let a handful of similar spells break the game?

[hymer]

Well with regards to Polymorph, I don't see it as unbalancing from my experience. It's pretty good when you get it, and for maybe two levels after. But there's really no options after the t-rex. There are no CR 9 beasts, or higher than that.
And consider the downsides of this form. It has terrible AC: It's Huge and can't fit in a lot of dungeons, and it gets in everyone's way. It's stoopid, which you should roleplay for the duration. It loses all class abilities. And the whole thing costs Concentration, making it unstable and costing you another, precious spell effect.
That said, Polymorph still retains its control effect, and the movement modes, so it wouldn't make the spell useless. Just a lot less fun.

As for shapechange, I think you should ask yourself some meta questions: Are you expecting to reach the levels where it comes online? How long do you expect to play at those levels?

[Breashios]

In my experience, Polymorph is a good spell, but not a game breaker when used within the rules. The sorcerer that had it gave it up after two levels because no one in the party was willing to be transformed. When changed into a giant ape you are a powerful melee monster, but weak willed and easily incapacitated with Wisdom save spell effect or worse.

[Legendairy]

I agree with what the others have said. I too have been gaming for 20+ years and dming fairly solidly for the last 10 or so years. Polymorph seems very strong out the gate when you first get it and adds a nice bag of HP to the players side. It is however, way to big for enclosed spaced (T-Rex), good for a small melee buffer (Giant ape), and adds some neat movement forms with regards to other forms. I do not see it as overpowered, concentration means the PC's aren't banishing your mooks or holding them, using other more detrimental battlefield control tricks. Also you can do things like, us it for your NPC's, dispell or counterspell it. It is not as rough as it first seems. I dont have much experience with Shapechange in this edition.

[Burnteyes]

It might just be my circles, but I know one player in a campaign I was in playing, and zero in any of the ones I am running use polymorph or shapechange.

My instinct tells me if it was really powerful/over powered a lot more players would be using it. I've no interest myself due to some of the reasons already listed, and have plenty of ways to counter it as a DM if needed given some of the ways already listed among others.

Mammoth? Well, you've got to cross a large body of water for a underground world.

[Jerrykhor]

As always, it depends on the situation the adventurers are in. People on the forums talk as if a T-Rex or Giant Ape would solve any violent problem, but its not. The main weakness of Polymorph is that it requires concentration. Hit the caster a few times and it should drop.

Other weaknesses are the beasts being beasts in general. They have poor AC, limited range attack, T-Rex in particular is only good against foes or ground, it has no climb speed or range attack, can't even multi-attack the same target. Being too big is a bad thing, can't fit through doors or cramped spaces. Also, non-magical attacks. I found that out the hard way when just last week, the creature I fought was straight up immune non-magical damage. Essentially, my Giant Ape was relegated to being just a sack of HP that depletes very quickly.

I don't want to sound condescending, but if Polymorph breaks your game as a DM, you don't know how to design combat encounters. Because the other 4th level spells could be argued to 'break' the game, like Greater Invis, Banishment, Arcane Eye, Conjure Woodland Beings etc.

[Byke]

I have to agree with the others in the thread, Polymorph is really strong between 7-9th level (especially if twinned), but my player who are now 13th never use it aside from an emergency heal.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have to agree with the others in the thread, Polymorph is really strong between 7-9th level (especially if twinned), but my player who are now 13th never use it aside from an emergency heal.

Mine use it exclusively as offensive crowd control.

[Rickety Stick]

Personally id say that polymorph is pretty overpowered for when you get it. It's fairly easy for the caster of the spell to stay away from combat or avoid being damaged as long as they didn't use the spell on themselves. Sure you as a dm can counter the spell, but that's also the case with most other problematic spells(using 2 boss monsters instead of 1 against banishment for example). So to me your house rule seems fair.

[DM7581]

I suppose my concern came after reading about the True Polymorph Ancient Dragon cheese.

Polymorph is limited to beasts, so I wouldn’t consider it broken, but no one has really commented on Shapechange and True Polymorph in action.

I currently run a live game approaching level 17 as well as an online play-by-post here that has gone epic.

In the epic game, the sorcerer would shapechange into a pit fiend quite regularly. What I did to counter this is put them against an enemy fighter with multiple attacks and high damage output. He was able to make the sorcerer break concentration, but then proceeded to a near TPK because of how strong he had to be in order to face off against a pit fiend, paladin (capable of gong all out at a moments notice), and a home brewed alchemist (mostly buffs and ranged damage effects).

I guess my point on the higher level spells is that as a DM, I need to scale an encounter based on party strength and party strength is a bit inflated with access to becoming a pit fiend when needed.

The concentration mechanic has limited this, but when it hasn’t, the guy is a one-man wrecking crew.

I guess at this level, he should be allowed to be?

[Laserlight]

I've run a couple of casters with Polymorph. Thus far I've used it once, primarily because we had a shy newbie playing a monk and I thought he'd get a kick out of suddenly changing into a giant ape (which he did). Generally there are better things to do with a L4 slot.

Now that I'm playing a Diviner wizard with Portent, I'll use it offensively; I'm hoping to combine Polymorph (into a bird) + Fear, and then drop concentration when the bird is, say, five hundred feet up.

[Potato_Priest]

I've never played past level 9, so keep that in mind. The tables I play at also tend to have fewer fights/day than is recommended, usually 1-3 much more difficult combats.

With these conditions, polymorph is absolutely broken.

Once I get to level 7, I'm genuinely surprised every time I hear that the enemy missed their attack, even if I have 16-18 AC. Attack bonuses are big enough at this point that armor class matters less and less, and the game becomes more and more of a raw hp game. At the same time, certain classes are falling noticeably behind their companions (I'm looking at you, unoptimized bard and cowardly rogue). This means that you have high level combatants who aren't quite pulling their weight and are fairly fragile.

Enter polymorph.

When that cowardly rogue becomes a giant ape, they now have more total effective hp than the bearbarian, more strength than anything else, and deal the most damage in melee combat. (they're also not that stupid.) If people are targeting the caster, the ape can just stand in the way while continuing to own the battlefield by throwing objects around (see boulder attack). If people aren't targeting the caster, the ape can be free to roflstomp everything on the battlefield with minimal effort.

Even if it was a well-balanced option, I'd still hate it because of the flavor. "And thus the mighty heroes turned themselves into giant apes and pulped the evil wizard with a barrage of massive fists and 'ook ook's." Just doesn't feel right to me.

[Danielqueue1]

Shapechange is a very powerful spell. it is also 9th level. the challenges a party is facing at this point should be far more clever and prepared to face the party than a raw dpr battle. An ancient dragon (other than a white dragon they aren't very smart) Is unlikely to face a party alone when it knows that there is a wizard turning into an equally big dragon on a regular basis.

Consider how blue dragons are known for dragging out combat over long periods of time. Green dragons are known for slinking away from fights they think they have a chance of losing only to come back later when the odds are more in their favor. A party should never be facing such a creature with full resources.

further, it is a concentration spell that can only target one's self so a horde of kobold minions and dragon cultists could break the wizard-dragon's concentration relatively quickly. especially if the party just assumes he'll be fine. Pit fiends have their entourage of lesser demons and cultists to do similar.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't want to sound condescending, but if Polymorph breaks your game as a DM, you don't know how to design combat encounters. This.

I suppose my concern came after reading about the True Polymorph Ancient Dragon cheese. When you get up to the character levels where that's possible, you need to get the most out of the opponents that the characters are facing. High CR monsters have a lot of options; make sure they appear in groups.
Ancient Black Dragon: CR 21. Ya can't turn into that. Ancient Blue Dragon: CR 23. You can't do that. Ancient Green Dragon: CR 22. You can't do that. Ancient Red Dragon. CR 24. You can't do that.
Ancient White Dragon. CR 20. Go for it. Ancient Brass Dragon. CR 20. Go for it.
Bronze, Silver, Gold, Copper...you can't do that, CR is too high. You can only true polymorph into something with a CR <= to your level.



I currently run a live game approaching level 17 as well as an online play-by-post here that has gone epic.

In the epic game, the sorcerer would shapechange into a pit fiend quite regularly. What I did to counter this is put them against an enemy fighter with multiple attacks and high damage output. He was able to make the sorcerer break concentration, but then proceeded to a near TPK because of how strong he had to be in order to face off against a pit fiend, paladin (capable of gong all out at a moments notice), and a home brewed alchemist (mostly buffs and ranged damage effects).

I guess my point on the higher level spells is that as a DM, I need to scale an encounter based on party strength and party strength is a bit inflated with access to becoming a pit fiend when needed. Nicely said.


The concentration mechanic has limited this, but when it hasn’t, the guy is a one-man wrecking crew.

I guess at this level, he should be allowed to be? That's the point of trying to get to Tier 4 play: you are world class, and begin to adventure to places that are not even in this world.

In the third tier (levels 11–16), characters have reached a level of power that sets them high above the ordinary populace and makes them special even among adventurers. At 11th level, many spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells, some of which create effects previously impossible for player characters to achieve. Other characters gain features that allow them to make more attacks or do more impressive things with those attacks.
At the fourth tier (levels 17–20), characters achieve the pinnacle of their class features, becoming heroic (or villainous) archetypes in their own right. The fate of the world or even the fundamental order of the multiverse might hang in the balance during their adventures. Yeah; wrecking ball. :smallbiggrin:

[DM7581]

I don't want to sound condescending, but if Polymorph breaks your game as a DM, you don't know how to design combat encounters. Because the other 4th level spells could be argued to 'break' the game, like Greater Invis, Banishment, Arcane Eye, Conjure Woodland Beings etc.

I suppose this would be condescending if my game was being broken, but it’s not, and that is not really the point of the post.

I can easily scale encounters or build them in a certain way to challenge players. My concern was in trying to fix something that I think may be overpowered.

The near TPK was not a TPK because of how I ran the encounter. The sad part, though is that the tank cannot truly be a tank if in a melee sense, I want to throw a monster (or a few monsters) that CAN stand up to a party which will include a CR 20 critter.

Yeah, I won’t kill off the party to prove a point, and it will eventually get old for me to craft some repeated scheme to minimize the efficacy of turning into the one-man wrecking crew.

Again, the concentration mechanic is a balancing factor and it has come into play, but I wonder if the rule had initially been written the way I suggested (half your level CR or your level in HD), would people then complain that the spells in question would be too weak.

I mean, given the option to rain down meteor swarm or be able to turn into a CR 10 dragon or other monster (assuming level 20), along with all associates flexibility options of changing form, would anyone consider the latter option far inferior or just about right?

Would anyone complain that Shapechange/True Polymorph is now too weak and never care to use it?

[Potato_Priest]

I don't want to sound condescending, but if Polymorph breaks your game as a DM, you don't know how to design combat encounters. Because the other 4th level spells could be argued to 'break' the game, like Greater Invis, Banishment, Arcane Eye, Conjure Woodland Beings etc.

Designing combat encounters that threaten a party with polymorph: easy.

Designing combat encounters in which polymorph is not always the best 4th level spell to cast: somewhat more challenging.

Designing combat encounters where the melee martials won't feel overshadowed by the rogue-turned-giant ape: hard.

Designing encounters where polymorph doesn't ruin the drama: damn near impossible.

[DM7581]

Well, I have decided to ditch the house rule. I feel like I am tough enough on casters. Might as well let them get their shapechange on, unhindered.

I feel that 1/2 CR would be much more balanced, but who am I kidding. This is D&D and balance was never then name of the game, aside from what I have heard from 4e.

Thanks for all the input.

[Surrealialis]

Resurrecting this old thread.

I'm interested in the house post because I've been interested in shapechanging characters in DND since NWN first came out in the early 2000s. I've played and DMd in a number of games since and I still haven't lost my obsession with the archetype. Which is, I think, underserved in 5e.

I know you decided to abandon the house rule but yes, I do think it would be too weak. When I look at 9th level spells they are really mixed. But I would argue that foresight is far more powerful combat spell to a 9th level character than the current shapechange. There's also wish... And resurrection. Both of which offer incredibly powerful game changing effects. Changing into a CR ten creature is not 'gamebreaking' at level 17, and I think good 9th level spells should be. In 5e. 20th level is like playing as elminster, or a minor deity.

[MaxWilson]

Hey all.

I would say that I am a bit experienced as a player and DM. Started gaming some 20+ years ago, mostly as the DM. I wanted to pick the brain of some other DMs as well as players to see how a house rule may feel. Give me some honest opinions.

Obviously, Polymorph, True Polymorph, and Shapechange, to me, cause some balance issues in game. When I can have a single player turn into what would normally be a formidable creature that approaches the abilities of the entire party, it puts me in a position to either increase encounter difficulty because of the players who can do this or simply letting what would be important encounters now become trivial.

I hate a boss fight to be little more than a 1-2 round beat down, and increasing encounter difficulty usually comes at the expense of other players who lack such abilities.

Here is what I propose, which is quite simple:

The limit of what you can turn into is basically any creature (following the normal restrictions of the creature type, per each spell) whose HD is equal to or less than your HD or level OR whose CR is equal to or less than HALF your HD or level, whichever is lower.

This would mean that a level 20 caster cannot simply turn into a Pit Fiend or a handful of ancient dragons, but something more moderate. There are plenty of CR 10 creatures that would prove useful even at level 20.

Polymorph at level 8 basically lets you turn into T-Rex. This would delay that until level 16. The strongest dragon that one could hope to become would be a young red/gold dragon (CR 10), which is still capable of multiple attacks, breath weapon, flight, and still an impressive amount of hit points.

I perused some other CR 8-10 monsters and they all seem quite fitting for that level, and still strong without being too weak to consider the spell as an option.

What are your thoughts on this? Is it too nerfing of a caster who has spent his career chasing such power, or would it be a fair compromise to not let a handful of similar spells break the game?

I think you're going about this the wrong way by restricting the creatures you can turn into. A T-Rex isn't individually all that much tougher than an 8th level PC; the reason Polymorph gets ridiculous is because it gives you a whole new HP buffer on top of your own. Since combat power is roughly the product of offensive output and staying power, even a creature which was exactly as strong as a PC (Polymorphing into a copy of yourself for instance) would double your staying power and thus double your combat power.

So if you really want to fix the Polymorph issue, I'd suggest that you just go with the old-school rule: HP are not changed when you transform, and when you revert to human form at 0 HP you stay at 0 HP. Now you turn into a T-Rex, you do so because you want access to its high speed and crushing jaws, not because you want "free" HP. Polymorph under this rule occupies a niche more similar to Magic Weapon or Shadow Blade than Conjure Animals.

It has the weird side effect that if you Polymorph a Purple Worm into a goldfish, it is an extraordinarily tough goldfish, but in practice that oddity doesn't hurt the game any (and can even be easily explained from an in-world perspective).

With the rule you originally proposed, you'd still see players transforming into meat shields (e.g. Brontosaurus at 10th level, which is basically as good as a T-Rex anyway despite being only CR 5 with 9d20+27 HP), and Polymorph would still be a gamebreaker at mid-high levels when exploited fully. If you're going to fix an issue, you might as well fix it for good--make HP and damage carry over between forms.

P.S. While I'm at it I would clearly define which "game statistics" game copied over/overwritten and which don't. I'm conceptually fine with the idea that Polymorph basically changes your "race" and your Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha and base speed/vision but not your HP or class features: after all, Polymorphing yourself into a T-Rex obviously doesn't cause you to lose your ability to concentrate on spells, even though the spell text explicitly forbids you from casting any more spells while Polymorphed. I have no fundamental problem with the idea that a Barbarian who is Polymorphed into a T-Rex could continue to Rage and Recklessly Attack.

[EvilAnagram]

I always put the limiter that you have to have seen or learned of the beast to succeed.