Expanded spell lists for Hunters and Beastmasters - yeah, they should have it

[Specter]

So now that all ranger subclasses get bonus spells except for theoriginal ones, we cansee that WotC was clearly sloppy about this. There's no reason why allranger subs shouldn't have bonus spells, especially since without them Rangers would have less spells known than EKs and ATs, and that's unacceptable.

So here are my suggestions for each of them:

HUNTER BONUS SPELLS
3 - Hunter's Mark
5 - See Invisibility
9 - Nondetection
13 - Locate Creature
17 - Hold Monster

BEASTMASTER BONUS SPELLS
3 - Speak with Animals
5 - Enhance Ability
9 - Conjure Animals
13 - Polymorph
17 - Awaken

What do you think?

[DracoKnight]

I really like both of those lists! I think I might even steal them for my homegames :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

Hunter's Mark and Speak with Animals are already on the Ranger spell list. :smallconfused:

[DracoKnight]

Hunter's Mark and Speak with Animals are already on the Ranger spell list. :smallconfused:

The way ranger bonus spells work is that they’re free spells that don’t count against your spells known.

[Tanarii]

The way ranger bonus spells work is that they’re free spells that don’t count against your spells known.Oh lord.

I assume the class features at 3, 7 & whatever have been appropriately lowered in power relative to the existing sub-classes? Somehow I can't see that.

And here I was hoping Xanathar's wouldn't be a book full of power-creep.

[Specter]

Yeah, they are, but the point is not just giving new spells, but freeing up their selection for more good stuff. It's debatable whether the new subclasses' features are OP (some of them are), but not giving expanded spell lists to the old ones is totally lame.

[Tanarii]

but not giving expanded spell lists to the old ones is totally lame.If the new sub-classes are in theory balanced without the new spells added to the lists, they definitely should have done that. Power creep or no.

[SharkForce]

If the new sub-classes are in theory balanced without the new spells added to the lists, they definitely should have done that. Power creep or no.

while i agree with this in general, i'm a bit more concerned about power creep elsewhere, and i feel like the ranger could have used a bit of power creep (though i would have just changed the base class so that they use the prepared method rather than the known method with a few extra "domain spells" for lack of a better way to describe it).

and i can't help feeling that the ranger is not the only class where the new subclasses shine far brighter than the core ones.

consider, for example, the valor bard. from everything i've heard, it hasn't had its niche completely stolen, but it's left holding a very small niche of questionable value. the shadow sorcerer is probably far stronger than either of the core sorcerer subclasses as well, and the divine soul is even more so in my opinion. druid subclasses just got some pretty strong options in XGtE, which is unfortunate because in core they've got moon druids which are basically doing glorified cantrip damage with a bit of an HP sponge provided at the cost of utility, and the fairly bland land druid subclass, which was perfectly fine because the base class is strong anyways. hexblade is sounding pretty absurd as well. and i don't think the creep is happening exclusively in subclasses either... perhaps you don't feel like elven accuracy is straight-up broken, but it is definitely an extremely strong feat in the right hands. some of the spells are sounding a bit overtuned as well.

now, i'm not saying you shouldn't object to power creep wherever you find it. i'm just saying i think you should be complaining much more loudly about some of the other power creep.

[ImproperJustice]

I wholeheartedly support the idea of an expanded ranger spell list.

The Deep Stalker UA had one, the new subclasses have one, and the old ones should definitely have one.

Honestly, Rangers should work a lot like a Druidic version of a Paladin.

[Nifft]

Here's my Ranger house rule for all sub-classes:

Natural Explorer - You can attune yourself to one type of terrain when you complete a long rest or a short rest. When you complete a long or short rest in or adjacent to one of the following terrain types: arctic, coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp, or the underdark, you can attune yourself to that terrain type. This attunement last until you use this class feature to attune a different terrain. While attuned, you gain the following benefits:
(standard Favored Terrain perks)

Additionally, you gain access to the terrain's associated spells. These spells are always considered known and prepared, and don't count towards your limit for Ranger spells known. (These are stolen from the Land Druid lists, plus level 1 spells have been added.)

Arctic
Level 3 - fog cloud, sleep
Level 5 - hold person, spike growth
Level 9 - sleet storm, slow
Level 13 - freedom of movement, ice storm
Level 17 - commune with nature, cone of cold

Coast
Level 3 - fog cloud, thunderwave
Level 5 - mirror image, misty step
Level 9 - water breathing, water walk
Level 13 - control water, freedom of movement
Level 17 - conjure elemental, scrying

Desert
Level 3 - create or destroy water, silent image
Level 5 - blur, silence
Level 9 - create food and water, protection from energy
Level 13 - blight, hallucinatory terrain
Level 17 - insect plague, wall of stone

Forest
Level 3 - healing word, purify food and drink
Level 5 - barkskin, spider climb
Level 9 - call lightning, plant growth
Level 13 - divination, freedom of movement
Level 17 - commune with nature, tree stride

Grassland
Level 3 - entangle, sanctuary
Level 5 - invisibility, pass without trace
Level 9 - daylight, haste
Level 13 - divination, freedom of movement
Level 17 - dream, insect plague

Mountain
Level 3 - jump, feather fall
Level 5 - spider climb, spike growth
Level 9 - lightning bolt, meld into stone
Level 13 - stone shape, stoneskin
Level 17 - passwall, wall of stone

Swamp
Level 3 - entangle, ray of sickness
Level 5 - darkness, Melf’s acid arrow
Level 9 - water walk, stinking cloud
Level 13 - freedom of movement, locate creature
Level 17 - insect plague, scrying

Underdark
Level 3 - heroism, faerie fire
Level 5 - spider climb, web
Level 9 - gaseous form, stinking cloud
Level 13 - greater invisibility, stone shape
Level 17 - cloudkill, insect plague


These spell lists probably ought to get updated now that XGtE has hit the streets.

[Naanomi]

Not Beast Bond?

[rbstr]

If the new sub-classes are in theory balanced without the new spells added to the lists, they definitely should have done that. Power creep or no.

I guess put them up against Hunter and you can decide.
Level 3:
Hunter - Extra d8 once a turn free, or potential reaction attack, or free extra attack against a second target
GStalker - disguise self, wis mod to initiative, free extra attack in the first round only with extra d8, darkvision, darkvision invisibility.
HWalker - protection from G&E, extra d8 and force damage on one attack as a bonus action, can detect planar portals a mile away.
MSlayer - protection from G&E, can learn creature's damage resistance/vulnerability as action, bonus action to mark a target to take one extra d6 per turn when you hit it.

I'm not finding that level terribly imbalanced. Really, Hunter has the most effective damage options by a good bit in colossus slayer and horde breaker since those are every round and action economy-free. The others have a bit more utility but their combat punch is somewhat lesser.

Going to higher levels I don't find them more powerful than the Hunter in general. That's not to say I don't find it a bit unfair they get extra spells known.
Hunters can at least get the cool new ranger spells, which I think are the biggest boons to the class.

[Specter]

Not Beast Bond?

I was considering only PHB as in AL Beast Bond may not be available.

[Naanomi]

I was considering only PHB as in AL Beast Bond may not be available.
AL isn’t going to allow adding spell lists anyways, so may as well go for broke

[Specter]

AL isn’t going to allow adding spell lists anyways, so may as well go for broke

You're right, BB it is.

[Throne12]

I guess put them up against Hunter and you can decide.
Level 3:
Hunter - Extra d8 once a turn free, or potential reaction attack, or free extra attack against a second target
GStalker - disguise self, wis mod to initiative, free extra attack in the first round only with extra d8, darkvision, darkvision invisibility.
HWalker - protection from G&E, extra d8 and force damage on one attack as a bonus action, can detect planar portals a mile away.
MSlayer - protection from G&E, can learn creature's damage resistance/vulnerability as action, bonus action to mark a target to take one extra d6 per turn when you hit it.

I'm not finding that level terribly imbalanced. Really, Hunter has the most effective damage options by a good bit in colossus slayer and horde breaker since those are every round and action economy-free. The others have a bit more utility but their combat punch is somewhat lesser.

Going to higher levels I don't find them more powerful than the Hunter in general. That's not to say I don't find it a bit unfair they get extra spells known.
Hunters can at least get the cool new ranger spells, which I think are the biggest boons to the class.

You forgot to add with the horizon walker make all there damage force damage.