Serpent bloodline feat - Any way around their special?

[Incarnate]

Hi everyone.

I just stumpled upon the Serpent bloodline feat which states this:

Because serpents must forever crawl on their bellies, even their offspring cannot hope to look to the skies. Characters with this feat cannot learn or cast spells intended to allow them to leave the ground (such as fly, levitate, or overland flight), and all such spells are removed from the spell lists of all their spellcasting classes.

I wonder if there are ways around this, because it specifically mentions spells, but what about feats and other abilities that can be gained that could allow one to do what the bloodline tries to make impossible for you.

I think there are some ways, just not exactly sure which ones.
For instance, if a sorcerer one could make a dragonpact and get fly as a spell-like ability.
Also, there a various class features where one can get a pair of wings.

What other possibilities are there?

[lord_khaine]

Well the big problem is that it also prevents you from casting those spells. It means you need a source of flight thats not a spell and not a psionic power.

Hmm.. it leaves magic items mainly, getting a flying mount, or i guess polymorphing into something with wings.

[timeeater14]

It's a very exclusive wording: It only excludes spells or psionic powers. Anything else works. Magic items, incarnum, heck, even Truenaming works.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always become a dragonborn of Bahamut with the wings aspect.

It also doesn't ban polymorph or alter self. Nor does it ban soulmelds, spell-like abilities or supernatural abilities, items, grafts, or any number of other non-spell things.

It also doesn't ban others from casting spells on you.

[Incarnate]

Well the big problem is that it also prevents you from casting those spells. It means you need a source of flight thats not a spell and not a psionic power.

Hmm.. it leaves magic items mainly, getting a flying mount, or i guess polymorphing into something with wings.

Its very specific about it being only spells, so I assume psionics would be fine, every other source than spells should be fine, thats how I understand it.
So say one who had dragon heritage could take dragon wings, and would be fine.?

[Dromuthra]

There's the wonderful Feathered Wings graft from the Fiend Folio. 10k for Ex Flight, and it tries to turn you evil every now and again.

[Necroticplague]

I don't think 'just polymorph' is allowable. After all, such form-changing magics seem like they'd fall under 'spells intended to allow them to leave the ground', so the feat would disallow them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think 'just polymorph' is allowable. After all, such form-changing magics seem like they'd fall under 'spells intended to allow them to leave the ground', so the feat would disallow them.Nah. Polymorph is intended to change your shape. It doesn't necessarily have to give you flight. It can, but such isn't a necessary result of the spell.

[Nifft]

There's the wonderful Feathered Wings graft from the Fiend Folio. 10k for Ex Flight, and it tries to turn you evil every now and again. They can't turn me evil if I'm already evil.


Nah. Polymorph is intended to change your shape. It doesn't necessarily have to give you flight. It can, but such isn't a necessary result of the spell. Agree. The prohibited spell list is pretty clear, and shape-changing isn't prohibited.

[torrasque666]

Agree. The prohibited spell list is pretty clear, and shape-changing isn't prohibited.That list is descriptive, not prescriptive. It doesn't explicitly describe all things banned because the ones listed are examples, hence the "such as" bit. It seems pretty clear to me that casting polymorph with the intent to gain wings would fall under "spells intended to allow the caster to leave the ground" Other uses of polymorph would be fine, as long as they didn't give a flight speed.

[Nifft]

That list is descriptive, not prescriptive. You're using those words wrong.

The thing you (hopefully) meant to say would be: the listed spells are examples, not an exhaustive list of prohibitions.


It doesn't explicitly describe all things banned because the ones listed are examples, hence the "such as" bit. It seems pretty clear to me that casting polymorph with the intent to gain wings would fall under "spells intended to allow the caster to leave the ground" Other uses of polymorph would be fine, as long as they didn't give a flight speed.

Polymorph doesn't give you a fly speed.

Polymorph gives you a new form. (The new form may give you a fly speed.)


The reason that I'm favoring a close reading here is that the spell's intent is called out, and to me that says the spell's direct and most obvious application, or its listed benefits, must include flight.



cannot learn or cast spells intended to allow them to leave the ground (such as fly, levitate, or overland flight),


So it's not prohibiting spells that can also allow you to leave the ground (polymorph, telekinesis, planar binding), but only spells that are intended to allow you to leave the ground.


Furthermore, there's no text prohibiting certain uses of a spell -- either the whole spell is removed from the character's lists, or it's not. If polymorph is not removed entirely, then it's not restricted by this mechanic.



That said, there's nothing particularly broken about prohibiting flight-through-spells entirely. Casters can use one of the options that mundanes use: graft, item, soulmeld, mount, etc. I'd phrase it something like...


Because serpents must forever crawl on their bellies, even their offspring cannot hope to look to the skies. Characters with this feat cannot learn or cast spells intended to allow them to leave the ground (such as fly, levitate, or overland flight), and all such spells are removed from the spell lists of all their spellcasting classes. Furthermore, you cannot gain a fly speed through any spell. If you polymorph into a griffon, your wings do not support you. If an ally casts fly on you, the spell has no effect.

[ATHATH]

They can't turn me evil if I'm already evil.
https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/selectall/2017/02/09/09-roll-safe.w710.h473.jpg

You could just play a race/have a template that has innate access to flight, like a Raptoran, Half-Fey, or Dragonborn.