Callbacks, AKA Batman Did It First

[alwaysbebatman]

With the return of Hilgya and the revelation that Durkon's dalliance with her resulted in a child (probably) a lot of people are commenting on the impressive long timeframe of the callback, and comparing it with others of the sort.

I think it would be well to sort these callbacks into categories for apples-to-apples comparison...

A) Character Returns

Sometimes a character makes a return to a story after a long absence, either because the character was forgotten (but then remembered), or they just wanted you to THINK that.

1) Hilgya Firehelm
Last appearance: Strip #84, July 4th 2004. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html
Return appearance: Strip #1105, Nov 13 2017. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html
Hilgya's return in today's strip definitely counts as an impressive example of this.

2) Floyd Lawton AKA Deadshot
Last appearance: Batman #59 June 1950.
Return appearance: Detective Comics #474, Dec 1977. http://www.wymann.info/comics/051-DetectiveComics474.html
Floyd Lawton was sentenced to prison at the end of his first appearance, and remained there until finally escaping 27 (real-world) years later. An impressive gap, but unlike Hilgya, Floyd was ACTUALLY forgotten.

3) Lord Tedd
Last appearance: Strip #455, Nov 7, 2003. http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=455
Return appearance: ?????
El Goonish Shive's Dan Shive has admitted that if he had to do it all over again, he wouldn't have introduced Lord Tedd so early on in the comic. He hasn't appeared on panel for almost 14 years, but still waits in the wings as a character who is bound to be important. Eventually.

B) Fling returns with Child
Hilgya's child is PROBABLY Durkon's and falls into this trope, popular in comedy, soap opera, and adventure serials. Many examples of this trope are retcon rather than callback, when the old fling and her child are introduced together like Green Arrow's son Connor Hawke, or the Sandler comedy Big Daddy.

1) Hilgya and lil baby Thundershield
Fling occurred: Strip #83, June 30, 2004. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html
Child returns: Strip #1105, Nov 13 2017. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html

2) Talia and Damian Wayne
Fling occurred: Batman: Son of the Demon, Sept 1987
Child returns: Batman #655, Sept 2006
19 years is one hell of a callback.

C) The other shoe delayed
When you were waiting for the other shoe to drop so long, you gave up waiting. And THEN it falls. Hilgya's return only fits with this loosely. A better example would be Belkar's fate (whenever that finally arrives) or Durkon returning home "posthumously." This may be a series-ending development: the goal finally reached: like getting back to their own time in Land of the Lost. Or finally failing to avert a dire prophecy, like Hellboy becoming the king of Hell. Or the Coyote catching the Roadrunner.

1) OOTS, Durkon's posthumous homecoming
First shoe: Durkon prophesied to return home posthumously. Strip #331, July 15 2006, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html
Other shoe: Durkon* arrives in Firmament. Strip #1084, July 20 2017, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1084.html

2) EGS, Almost the entire premise and cast are due to the plotting and manipulation of the disembodied Magus trying to get a physical form back.
First shoe: Strip #140, June 9 2002, http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=140 Tedd succumbs to an impulse to transform his friend Elliot into a woman with a transformation beam gun. Magus hasn't even been introduced yet, but it later becomes clear Magus manipulated that impulse.
Meanwhile: Magus manipulated the boys into thinking the artifact the Dewitchery diamond would return Elliot to his gender. But the Dewitchery diamond actually separates the curse into a second person, who names herself Ellen and has the power to "spread the curse", ie can shoot a gender changing beam from her hand.
Second Shoe: Strip #671, June 10 2005, http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=671 Magus attempts to manipulate Ellen into shooting Elliot with a gender transformation beam on a mischievous impulse while Magus's ethereal form floats between. The audience infers that Magus will somehow be blasted into Elliot's body and then if he touches the Dewitchery diamond AGAIN, he'd have a physical form of his own again. But Ellen resists the impulse and the Magus's is foiled and delayed. FOR YEARS.
Other shoe: Nov 10 2017, http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2421 Magus finally sets up a situation where Ellen blasts Elliot with a transformation beam and Magus takes over his body. FINALLY!

D) Delayed Punchline
A lot of the callback examples people have been giving are delayed punchline, where the ridiculousness if waiting that long for a punchline IS the joke. I don't think that's analogous to Hilgya, but it IS a type of callback.

1) The "Shivering with Antici..." Gag.
Set up: May 8, 2009. https://mobile.twitter.com/DrFNFurter/status/1735237290
Punch Line: May 7, 2014. https://mobile.twitter.com/DrFNFurter/status/464259582358220800

2) The Boomerang Gag.
Set up: Strip #475 https://xkcd.com/475/
Punch Line: Strip #939 https://www.xkcd.com/939/

E) The Time Travel Gag.

1) The first instance (I believe) of this gag is the Time Travel issue of Analog. The story goes that someone sent a letter saying that they had met a time traveller, and he had shown them an issue of Analog from a few years in the future. The letterhack described the authors and titles they saw. When the future arrived, the magazine arranged to make it come true to play along.

2) SMBC
Prophecy: Strp #748, March 2, 2007. http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=748#comic
Fulfillment: March 2, 2017. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/praise-his-metal-heart

Welp, those are the examples that come immediately to mind.

Any other comparisons folks feel are warranted by today's revelation?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

2) Floyd Lawton AKA Deadshot
Last appearance: Batman #59 June 1950.
Return appearance: Detective Comics #474, Dec 1977. http://www.wymann.info/comics/051-DetectiveComics474.html
Floyd Lawton was sentenced to prison at the end of his first appearance, and remained there until finally escaping 27 (real-world) years later. An impressive gap, but unlike Hilgya, Floyd was ACTUALLY forgotten.

I assume those are not the same author? Because if we are allowing references to works from other people, pick any modern story mentioning Gilgamesh for a reference spanning millenia.

If we restrict ourselves to "same continuity", whatever that means in the context of Batman comics, an infinite number of such things in Doctor Who. A quick wiki check tells me that The Great Intelligence had a gap of 44 years.


Any other comparisons folks feel are warranted by today's revelation?

Harry Potter: Sirius Black was mentioned in the prologue of book 1 (lent his flying bike to Hagrid), and was not actually re-referenced until book 3, not making an "official" appearance as a human until the very end of it.

A Song of Ice and Fire gives us an abstract one: the true parentage of Jon Snow, which featured prominently in book 1, and if the tv series is to be believed, we may revisit in a future book, more than a decade of RT after and several thousand pages later.

The Belgariad, due to having books 11 and 12 be prequels (within a framing device after the main story is complete) have endless references to previous books; Faldor's farm, for example, gets a callback 9-ish books and thousands of pages later.

And I'm sure there are thousands of other examples.

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

Absolutely, the fact that Batman is a franchise that has passed through many hands makes it a little different. Doctor Who is bound to have a bunch of startling returns of buses. However, Doctor Who has an additional caveat that the others don't: a long interregnum when it wasn't being produced. (Well, if you only count teleplays. There were always books and audioplays, come to think of it.)

Sirius Black is certainly an excellent example of Chekhov's Sniper Rifle....

[littlebum2002]

What about the 8-bit Theatre strip entitled "The Longest Set-Up in Webcomic History"?

In Strip #7 (http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Episode_007:_Kamehameha!..._or_something.), in March 2001, Black Mage was commenting on a challenge in Nintendo Power magazine to play Final Fantasy using only 4 White Mages. In Strip #1221 (http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Episode_1221:_Longest_Set_Up_In_Webcomic_History) (February 2010), the BBEG is defeated using...4 White Mages.

[Sir_Norbert]

Harry Potter: Sirius Black was mentioned in the prologue of book 1 (lent his flying bike to Hagrid), and was not actually re-referenced until book 3, not making an "official" appearance as a human until the very end of it.

Actually, there are quite a few Harry Potter examples. Arabella Figg, also mentioned in the beginning of book 1, returns unexpectedly in book 5.

Aberforth Dumbledore, mentioned in book 4, turns up in book 7, but everyone expected that :)

Griphook may be the best example from the series, appearing in book 1 and unexpectedly returning in 7.

[goodpeople25]

Actually, there are quite a few Harry Potter examples. Arabella Figg, also mentioned in the beginning of book 1, returns unexpectedly in book 5.

Aberforth Dumbledore, mentioned in book 4, turns up in book 7, but everyone expected that :)

Griphook may be the best example from the series, appearing in book 1 and unexpectedly returning in 7.
She was mentioned near the end of book 4 I believe. Is it sad that I remember that mainly because of bad fanfic?

[Kurald Galain]

Sluggy Freelance recently had a huge reveal that's been set up about a decade ago.

Dr. McNinja has a number of four- or five year callbacks such as Ron Wizard (2009 - 2013) and the wizard's curse (a different wizard, 2010 - 2015).

I suppose it's natural for any long-running story to start making callbacks. That said, I do think we should distinguish between a running gag of throwaway line that gets referenced later (which, let's face it, are pretty easy for a writer) and having a fairly important plot element (e.g. the Hilgya/Durkon arc back in book one) that returns again as a fairly important plot element (right now). Those require quite a bit more writing skill to pull off; it's the only one on your list that's a plot trope rather than just a gag. I'm not saying that Rich was the first one, but his is still one of the biggest leaps in any single-writer comic.

For comparison, EGS's Lord Tedd or Magus never had any actual impact on the comic before; they've been foreshadowed for a long time but that's not the same as having an impact and returning for more impact. Durkon's homecoming and Belkar's eventual death are also foreshadowing.

[Papillon]

Girl Genius: Muse of Time first appeared on page 4 of volume 1, in 2002, not to reappear until act 2, volume 3 (i.e. volume 16) page 41 in 2016, if I have it correct.

I'd link to it, but I haven't made enough posts apparently.

[martianmister]

How about Bucky Barnes?

Last canonical appearance in 1945
Revealed to be dead in 1964
Revealed to be alive in 2005

[iyaerP]

I'm still waiting for Thor's Masked Debt Gourd (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) to show up.

[Vinyadan]

For comparison, EGS's Lord Tedd or Magus never had any actual impact on the comic before; they've been foreshadowed for a long time but that's not the same as having an impact and returning for more impact. Durkon's homecoming and Belkar's eventual death are also foreshadowing.

I don't really agree: Lord Tedd sent the Goo, which set a good load of things in motion.

Magus has also made a certain number of important decisions (like not having old Verres kill Beardmage), and is an actual character. I wouldn't say that he's just been foreshadowed. It's heavily implied that Magus was the reason why Tedd zapped Elliot back then. See http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=669 & following pages.

Anyway, I simply don't think that they have never had impact.

I'd rather say that the current events have been foreshadowed, though.

[elros]

I think the previous longest callback in OOTS was Jiminy (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Jiminy):
First in #136 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html), from Jan 5, 2005
Then in #942 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html), from Jan 28, 2014

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, there are quite a few Harry Potter examples. Arabella Figg, also mentioned in the beginning of book 1, returns unexpectedly in book 5.

Aberforth Dumbledore, mentioned in book 4, turns up in book 7, but everyone expected that :)

Griphook may be the best example from the series, appearing in book 1 and unexpectedly returning in 7.

I wasn't intending my post to be a comprehensive review of all HP callbacks. I was more centering in crucial characters being mentioned early.

For the record, I think my favourite cute callbacks in HP are the fact that in his OWL exams, he gets asked about Wingardium Leviosa. It stuck in my mind because in my equivalent "multi-year" exam, I was really worried about being asked questions on things I had studied years earlier and might have forgotten about.

Grey Wolf

[alwaysbebatman]

@martianmister: I agree, Bucky Barnes is an excellent example and the examplar of a one trope in this family of tropes that I failed to cover: They Tried to Lock the Revolving Door.

Sherlock Holmes and Barry Allen are other examples, but I can't think of anybody who stayed dead as long as Bucky.


I don't really agree: Lord Tedd sent the Goo, which set a good load of things in motion.

Magus has also made a certain number of important decisions (like not having old Verres kill Beardmage), and is an actual character. I wouldn't say that he's just been foreshadowed. It's heavily implied that Magus was the reason why Tedd zapped Elliot back then. See http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=669 & following pages.

Anyway, I simply don't think that they have never had impact.

I'd rather say that the current events have been foreshadowed, though.

Good point about the Goo, I was kind of buying the whole "Lord Tedd hasn't made an impact" thing, but the Goo set a lot of wheels in motion.

Not as much as Magus's machinations, though.

Almost everything in the basic premise of EGS has happened because of Magus's Plan. There was just a REALLY long delay between steps.

[Onyavar]

Well, in OotS there have been a few other callbacks.

In the A-Category falls Zzdtri - he was diasppeared in #65 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html). Reappeared in #789 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html). That was also heavily commented on, at that time.

Blackwing is the earliest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)example with hundreds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html)of strips between appearances (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html). People thought of him as a recurring gag, even, until proven otherwise now.

Then there is Mr. Scruffy. First seen between #266 and #406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), he disappeared and was forgotten until #520 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html). Okay, it's not that long a gap; O-Chul had offscreen times longer that this between his appearances, but we always considered O-Chul as a rather important character since at least the fall of AC.

Ian Starshine was established with some early flashbacks, so I'm not sure he counts. He was an obscure character until revealed in the Bloodstone dungeon. Likewise, Tarquins first appearance in #50 was only in passing, he also really first entered the story as a real character in the 5th book. I also wouldn't include Jiminy into that same category, as he didn't "make a comeback", i.e. returned into the story for several pages.

[knag]

I think the previous longest callback in OOTS was Jiminy (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Jiminy):
First in #136 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html), from Jan 5, 2005
Then in #942 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html), from Jan 28, 2014


Well, in OotS there have been a few other callbacks.

In the A-Category falls Zzdtri - he was diasppeared in #65 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html). Reappeared in #789 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html). That was also heavily commented on, at that time.

Blackwing is the earliest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html)example with hundreds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html)of strips between appearances (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html). People thought of him as a recurring gag, even, until proven otherwise now.

Then there is Mr. Scruffy. First seen between #266 and #406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), he disappeared and was forgotten until #520 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html). Okay, it's not that long a gap; O-Chul had offscreen times longer that this between his appearances, but we always considered O-Chul as a rather important character since at least the fall of AC.

Ian Starshine was established with some early flashbacks, so I'm not sure he counts. He was an obscure character until revealed in the Bloodstone dungeon. Likewise, Tarquins first appearance in #50 was only in passing, he also really first entered the story as a real character in the 5th book. I also wouldn't include Jiminy into that same category, as he didn't "make a comeback", i.e. returned into the story for several pages.

The longest callback in OOTS might actually be Lord Sutur, first appearing in #40 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) before reappearing (in voice only, through his High Priest) in #1012 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html). Total gap of 972 strips.

After that its:
2. Jiminy - 806 strips
3. Jiminy's Cat - 806
4. Kraagor - 763
5. Ishtar - 726
6. Sif - 725
7. Marduk - 725
8. Hurak's Dwarf Tossers - 702 (both are flashbacks to the same scene)
9. Soul Muncher -675
10. Elan's Mother - 675
11. Tarquin - 672
12. Miko Miyazaki - 559 (just a flashback)
13. Odin - 545
14. Carol - 543
15-16. Two other Mechane Crewmen - 541
17. Julio Scoundrel - 538
18. The Snarl - 534
19. Zz'dtri 526
and finally,
20. Hilgya Firehelm - 526 (This is because she appeared in #142 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) and #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), at least her image does)

Blackwing is #74 on the list.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Blackwing is #74 on the list.

I'm guessing you have some kind of spreadsheet with every character and every strip number they appear in?

GW

[Goosefarble]

I'm guessing you have some kind of spreadsheet with every character and every strip number they appear in?

GW

You don't? :smallconfused:

[knag]

I'm guessing you have some kind of spreadsheet with every character and every strip number they appear in?

GW

Actually pulled it down from the wiki character index into excel to calculate diffs and sort...

I have a lot of free time... :smallredface:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually pulled it down from the wiki character index into excel to calculate diffs and sort...

I have a lot of free time... :smallredface:

That works even better. Can I have a link?

(And hey, NOT judging you. I'm the guy that has spent 8 years curating a thread about a thing in a pool of darkness)

GW

[knag]

That works even better. Can I have a link?

(And hey, NOT judging you. I'm the guy that has spent 8 years curating a thread about a thing in a pool of darkness)

GW

Of course! (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Character_Index) :smallbiggrin:

[Green Bugbear]

In strip 966, Elan and Belkar point out that there's a merchant with potions right before the final battle.

In strip 1099, the Order buy a bunch of potions from Brewmaster Blackore before going out to fight vampires.

[Onyavar]

The longest callback in OOTS might actually be Lord Sutur, first appearing in #40 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) before reappearing (in voice only, through his High Priest) in #1012 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html). Total gap of 972 strips.

After that its:
2. Jiminy - 806 strips
3. Jiminy's Cat - 806
4. Kraagor - 763
5. Ishtar - 726
6. Sif - 725
7. Marduk - 725
8. Hurak's Dwarf Tossers - 702 (both are flashbacks to the same scene)
9. Soul Muncher -675
10. Elan's Mother - 675
11. Tarquin - 672
12. Miko Miyazaki - 559 (just a flashback)
13. Odin - 545
14. Carol - 543
15-16. Two other Mechane Crewmen - 541
17. Julio Scoundrel - 538
18. The Snarl - 534
19. Zz'dtri 526
and finally,
20. Hilgya Firehelm - 526 (This is because she appeared in #142 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) and #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), at least her image does)

Blackwing is #74 on the list.

That's a cool list. I think I know all the scenes you are referring to, on both ends, even with obscure characters. I have most of the comic mind-mapped. To be honest, ,the only one I had to think about and then look up was Ishtar: I guess you mean 999 (statue) vs. 273 (unnamed blue goddess).

However, if I had to rate it as category-A as defined per the OP, I wouldn't count flashbacks, memories or voiceovers - only major characters acting on-panel.

Then, we have probably a list which is a lot shorter. The ones that stick out the most are imho: Julio, Zz'dtri, Hilgya. However, Tarquin was one of the most expected reveals back at his time.

What about a "best/most significant/funniest/most (un)expected/etc... character re-appearance contest"? :smallwink: Give us the candidates, and we'll have to vote about it.
I mean, we had the weirdest contests so far, like "which strip was the best of the rejected omes from another best-of contest", aka 'Brick contest'.