dumb twf questions

[Chugger]

Hey I need some help pls making sure I grasp the TWF issues, especially in context of possibly playing and almost certainly DM'ing twf hexblades.

Okay, if you twf w/out a fighting style and w/out the feat, you are limited to light weapons in both hands and you can't add dex or str damage bonus to the off-hand damage.

But what about a Hexblade?

Let's say he's lvl 3 w/ blade pact and so has the pact blade in one hand and the hex-blade weapon in the other.

Can the Pact blade be non-light, like a rapier? Or a longsword?

Can the off hand weapon be non light?

Does it matter which weapon is in which hand?

Or does he need the feat to use non-light weapons in both or either hand pls?

Okay the hex blade thing says add cha damage bonus to damage and seems like a specific - and specfic rules trump general - except no bonus-adding to off hand seems to be also a specific rule. Does he need a fighting style from fighter/pal/ranger/sword bard to add cha damage to off-hand damage pls?

In general is twf any good for a hexblade going up into high levels, or does it start to not shine so much like phb classes, please?

[lunaticfringe]

You don't add Cha to damage, you can use it in place of STR or Dex on a weapon you touch you are proficient with for Attack & Damage Roll & your Pact Blade. So just touch a weapon other than your Pact Blade. Both would still need to be Light if you didn't have the Dual Wielder feat. You would still need TWF style to add Cha Modifier damage to the Bonus Attack.

Hexblades Curse adds Proficiency Bonus to damage not Cha. You add that to both Damage rolls

[bid]

TWF states "ability modifier", which Cha is as much as Str/Dex or Wis. No change here.

Blade pact (at level 3) can form any weapon. You form a shortsword, it behaves like a shortsword. Again, using a pact weapon doesn't change anything.


TWF becomes bad when fighters get their double extra attack. Any other class that stays at 2 attacks. For a bladelock 12:
- attack action for 1d6+(attack=5)+(lifedrinker=5) ~ 1d6+10
- extra attack for 1d6+(attack=5)+(lifedrinker=5) ~ 1d6+10
- bonus TWF for 1d6+(lifedrinker=5) ~ 1d6+5

A fighter would trade the +15 from lifedrinker for another 1d6+5.

[Chugger]

Say you were going to play hexblade and stick with it at least 6 levels (maybe more - but at least get the spectre). Would you go TWF? Would you 1-dip fighter at lvl 1 to get the fighting style to support TWF (and heavy armor - but str prob to consider)? Would you go var hum and get the feat?

If not, would you use a 1-hand weapon and use a shield? Or would you use a 2hander?

[Arcangel4774]

If youre trying to pick up the twf fighting style, consider the knew bardic college. With straight charism, you are already maximising tbe amount of dice you have to perform those flourishes. It is a 3 level investment however.

[Mikal]

Just remember that the charisma swap ability only works on a single weapon regardless of anything else, and that all other TWF rules apply normally.

So you'd have one weapon using str or dex, the second cha.

In addition only the main hand would get stat to attack and damage without the fighting style, and you're limited to light weapons without the feat.

Pact weapon doesn't change any of the above. The only thing a pact weapon gets is the ability to be two handed and use cha, allowing GWF, or with an invocation, for the ability to use it on a ranged weapon you create vs an existing magic weapon.

Remember specific trumps general, and the only thing hexblade does specifically different is allow you to use cha on a single weapon for attack and damage instead of str or dex.

[Arcangel4774]

Just remember that the charisma swap ability only works on a single weapon regardless of anything else, and that all other TWF rules apply normally.

So you'd have one weapon using str or dex, the second cha
You can bond with only one weapon over a long rest to get the hex warrior bonus. However when you take pact of the blade the benfits extend to any weapon you conjure with that feature. In other words you have one "real" bonded weapon and one conjured weapon that gets the benefits from being bonded.

[Mikal]

You can bond with only one weapon over a long rest to get the hex warrior bonus. However when you take pact of the blade the benfits extend to any weapon you conjure with that feature. In other words you have one "real" bonded weapon and one conjured weapon that gets the benefits from being bonded.

The any weapon means that you bypass the restriction on Two Handed weapons, not that you can use it on both a non-pact weapon and a pact weapon.

Even if the restriction lifting meant what you think it did, it doesn't matter because you can only do it once per long rest, and the effect ends at the end of a long rest, so you can only choose one of the two weapon to enhance, and if you tried to do it on another weapon the first one will have already faded due to ending the long rest to enhance a weapon.

[lunaticfringe]

The any weapon means that you bypass the restriction on Two Handed weapons, not that you can use it on both a non-pact weapon and a pact weapon.

Even if the restriction lifting meant what you think it did, it doesn't matter because you can only do it once per long rest, and the effect ends at the end of a long rest, so you can only choose one of the two weapon to enhance, and if you tried to do it on another weapon the first one will have already faded due to ending the long rest to enhance a weapon.

If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.

You can conjure a new Pact Weapon every Combat if you like, it takes an action. I have no idea what you're on about.

[Mikal]

If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.

You can conjure a new Pact Weapon every Combat if you like, it takes an action. I have no idea what you're on about.

Ok... I'm not refuting that part?
I'm refuting the part where someone thinks that lifting the restriction means they can bond multiple weapons at once, and get the Cha boost on those weapons. Which doesn't have anything to do with the ability of a Hexblade to dismiss or destroy/recreate another conjured weapon.


You can bond with only one weapon over a long rest to get the hex warrior bonus. However when you take pact of the blade the benfits extend to any weapon you conjure with that feature. In other words you have one "real" bonded weapon and one conjured weapon that gets the benefits from being bonded.

[lunaticfringe]

Ok... I'm not refuting that part?
I'm refuting the part where someone thinks that lifting the restriction means they can bond multiple weapons at once, and get the Cha boost on those weapons. Which doesn't have anything to do with the ability of a Hexblade to dismiss or destroy/recreate another conjured weapon.

No one is talking about using the Hex Warrior Bond to bond with multiple weapons. Your Pact Blade automatically has the feature. So you buy a Silvered Shortsword and touch it every morning. Then you summon your Pact Blade and stick it in a sheath. Both use Cha for Attack & Damage. You still only bonded with 1 weapon that day.

[Mikal]

No one is talking about using the Hex Warrior Bond to bond with multiple weapons. Your Pact Blade automatically has the feature. So you buy a Silvered Shortsword and touch it every morning. Then you summon your Pact Blade and stick it in a sheath. Both use Cha for Attack & Damage. You still only bonded with 1 weapon that day.

I was about to have a long drawn out argument regarding this... but after re-reading it... I can see it being that way.
Waiting to see if JC confirms if that's the case.

And honestly, I hope he disagrees with my original tweet, because the wording does actually support your side on second viewing.

[Easy_Lee]

I thought Hexblade simply said you could use charisma in place of strength or dexterity for any non-heavy weapon, and that blade pact bonded weapons were the exception to the latter part.

Regardless, if you're going to TWF on a Hexblade, you're best served picking up the fighting style. Fighter is the quickest way to get it and fighter 2 grants action surge. Start fighter and you get Con saves. Take more levels of fighter and you can save yourself an invocation on extra attack and pick up some archetype features - the new Samurai is interesting. If you go down that route, you may not even need blade pact. Chain and Tome are overall more useful and can be taken in conjunction with Hexblade.

College of Swords Bard can do much of the the same and will be a strong option for this type of character. However, fighter action surge (which refreshes on a short rest like your warlock spell slots) is quite strong on a Hexblade. Casting darkness and making three attacks in the same round as early as level 7 is certainly something. And if you already have advantage, from an ally say, then using shadow blade as your offhand weapon yields significant damage, especially if you also have Elven Accuracy.

[bid]

Would you 1-dip fighter at lvl 1 to get the fighting style to support TWF (and heavy armor - but str prob to consider)?
Only to Dex14 + medium armor + defense style. That way AC18 is better than Dex16 + mage armor.

I'd rather keep shield master a possibility.

[lunaticfringe]

I thought Hexblade simply said you could use charisma in place of strength or dexterity for any non-heavy weapon, and that blade pact bonded weapons were the exception to the latter part.


I mean it's possible, but if it is they used piss poor phraseology to get that point across. Regardless, I'd allow it my way. TWF isn't that amazing.

Time will tell I suppose.

[Chugger]

Thanks all! Very helpful!

I'm seeing how good a half elf could be and can take elven accuracy at lvl 4, getting 18 cha and the other benefit of that feat. But we're looking at 12 or higher to be Cha 20 and having another feat like TWF. A v Hu can start w/ the feat, the FS w/ Fi 1, and be Cha 12 by lvl 9 if he goes straight hexblade after that.

The main benefit to TWF was with the hex spell and not the curse: 3 hits a round (lvl 5 on) = 3d6 extra damage, and if you can wake up before everyone else, hex a chicken and rest an hour, and you got 7 hrs of free hex. But I don't see how this scales into the higher levels.

Another way to go is just straight hexblade sword and board. At lvl 5 get the invo that lets you attack twice and either E. Strike or the one that makes your pact blade +1 +1. Plus something like Devil's Sight or the False Life one. E strike seems limited, especially if you're casting darkness - you got one slot left - two if you have that warlock rod that lets you create a new slot.

If I'm lvl 5 straight hexblade sword and board with Elven Accuracy and the invo that lets me attack twice, the magic pact weapon one, and devil's sight, I can be fighting in darkness - so only rarely missing. I'm doing 1d8 + 4 (cha) + 3 (curse) + 1 (bonus from the invo) times 2 each turn - or 25 points a round. Nineteen a round if curse is off, but at that point I can possibly cast hex - or use it from an earlier cheese.

At 9 that goes to 1d8 + 5 (cha) + 4 (curse) + 1 (bonus from the invo) times two or 29 a round.

A lvl 5 straight hexblade w/ a 2 hnd swd pact weapon and the same invos = 2d6 + 4 + 3 +1 (times two) = 30 points damage a round.

A lvl 5 straight hexblade doing twf with no twf-feat or FS, same invos = 1d6 (light weap) + 4 (cha) + 3 (curse) + 1 (bonus from invo) times two = 23 and 1d6 + 1 (from the +1 invo on the weap) for 4.5 more or 27.5 damage a turn.

The other path, getting some fighter first, is intriguing. Lvl 1 Fi. Lvl 2 Hexblade. Lvls 3-7 Fi - so I'm a Fi 6/HexBl 1 at lvl seven. 20 Cha and Elven accuracy. Might as well go 1-2 more into hexblade to get invos and a pact feature, but at this point I could swing off into sorc. Or chug up higher in hexblade but as you said, Easy_Lee, take tome or chain.

But having a two high level slots from staying in lock is useful. Now my head's hurting.

[bid]

I'm seeing how good a half elf could be and can take elven accuracy at lvl 4, getting 18 cha and the other benefit of that feat. But we're looking at 12 or higher to be Cha 20 and having another feat like TWF. A v Hu can start w/ the feat, the FS w/ Fi 1, and be Cha 12 by lvl 9 if he goes straight hexblade after that.
Which feat? The one that only elves can take?

[alchahest]

TWf, I think.

[bid]

TWf, I think.
No, I don't think Chugger is talking about DW.

[Chugger]

I think I meant TWF ... but hours have passed ... gah, who really knows?! :smallbiggrin:

[Mikal]

Looks like he already answered on the 13th, so yes... you are explicitly meant to be able to use it on a weapon you touch and a weapon you conjure.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/930235396792786944