3.5 sorcerer tips

[Dirtydan]

I'm starting a new character, a sorcerer. Ecl 13 all books are excepted besides Dragon magazines I've never played a sorcerer before I was wondering what are the best spells and feats for my character we are pretty combat heavy so high damage spells would be nice I have no idea what feats are good in practice so any info is appreciated thank you!

[ATHATH]

How well-optimized is the rest of the group? What classes are they playing as, and what party roles are they focusing on?

First rule of spellcasting school: Don't lose spellcasting levels. If you absolutely must lose spellcasting levels (if you're, say, a Mystic Theurge or the like), lose as few as possible.

Second rule of spellcasting school: Unless you're a Druid, Sha'ir, or a Wizard that wants to grab the Spontaneous Divination ACF, PrC out of your base class as soon as possible. If you're worried about your familiar's progression, just use an ACF to trade it out for something nice and buy it back with the Obtain Familiar feat, which will base its abilities off of your caster level, not your class level.

Third rule of spellcasting school: Blasting spells are terrible unless they have a really good rider effect or you're a mailman. Buffs, battlefield control and debuffs are where it's at.

You might want to check out this handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444617-Sorcerer-s-Handbook

If you don't want to be overwhelmed by complexity and want to shoot stuff with lasers, have you considered playing a Warlock instead of a Sorcerer? Here's a Warlock handbook for you if you decide to play one:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252715-The-New-Warlock-Handbook-3-5-WIP

[Dirtydan]

Classes in the group are Paladin fighter cleric bard/drunken master and spirit shaman/Dragon disciple Paladin is melee damage with fighter cleric heals the bard is mostly using buffs and the spirit shaman doesn't seem to have a defined role I guess a list of useful spells and feats would be nice I'm not sure what the term mailman means but it sounds Interesting my race is rakasha if that matters.

[ATHATH]

Classes in the group are Paladin fighter cleric bard/drunken master and spirit shaman/Dragon disciple Paladin is melee damage with fighter cleric heals the bard is mostly using buffs and the spirit shaman doesn't seem to have a defined role I guess a list of useful spells and feats would be nice I'm not sure what the term mailman means but it sounds Interesting my race is rakasha if that matters.
How are you getting rid of that +7 level adjustment? A Rakshasa with no class levels is an ECL 14 character.

The term "mailman" is in reference to a particular Sorcerer build that stacks up metamagic reducers to the point where he can launch low-level, no-save, no-SR, touch attack spells that deal ludicrous amounts of damage (enough to one-shot pretty much anything in the game) dozens of times per day. It would not be of an appropriate power level for your game.

Considering that you exist in a part with mostly single-classed characters and a Cleric that focuses on in-combat healing, I'd say that you'd probably be fine if you just picked interesting-looking spells. Haste is a good one, as is Glitterdust.

Seeing as you're playing as a Rakshasa, I'd recommend taking a look at this handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook

[ATHATH]

Oh, and since you're relatively new to the game, lemme give you a tip: Never trust anything from Dandwiki at face value, because the site is plagued by large amounts of unmarked homebrew material and unmarked "fixes" for existing material.

Use this site (and physical books, of course) instead: http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm

EDIT: Here's a guide to the official, free, online stuff that isn't illegal (with links!) and isn't in the d20srd: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=513.msg2444#msg2444

[Dirtydan]

Thanks for the info. Could you recommend some feats that work well for a sorcerer?

[ATHATH]

Thanks for the info. Could you recommend some feats that work well for a sorcerer?
The Cerebrosis, Mother Cyst, and Bloodline feats all add spells to your spell list/list of spells known, which is a Good Thing (TM). I'm afraid that I can't really help you much further than that (but I'm sure that some other poster here can); I tend to play Wizards more often than Sorcerers.

What alignment is your Cleric, and what deity does he worship?

Has your Bard considered taking the Dragonfire Inspiration feat?

Has your Paladin considered taking the Sword of the Arcane Order feat? It lets him prepare Wizard spells with Paladin spell slots, which means that you can focus on less downtime-y spells with your low-level spells known.

Is your Fighter aiming for any prestige class in particular? What combat style is he focusing on, if any? Has he taken the Power Attack feat?

[Dirtydan]

As far as the other members of the group I can't really speak for them in terms of their plans cleric is lawful good deity is palor I believe

[ATHATH]

As far as the other members of the group I can't really speak for them in terms of their plans cleric is lawful good deity is palor I believe
Darn. If he was Neutral Good, he could have taken levels in the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, which is really good for dedicated healers.

Well, if you have the Book of Exalted Deeds available to you, you should probably inform your Cleric that, because he is a Cleric with a Good alignment, he can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells (a group of spells that all have drawbacks to being cast, such as ability damage/drain, level loss, etc.) in the same manner as he can spontaneously cast Cure spells, which is a pretty neato ability.

This supplement might be of use to you: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

Forgotten Realms Helps (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/index.shtml) is another reliable website to use, by the way. Note that content from Dragon Magazine is in a sort of weird limbo between being 1st party and being 3rd party, so check with your DM to see if he allows it.

[ATHATH]

Oh, and for your Bard, here's a thread in which the Playground searched for spells that would fit in a homebrewed Beer domain, some of which are on the Bard spell list: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540252-What-Spells-for-the-Beer-Domain&highlight=beer+domain

[Nifft]

Thanks for the info. Could you recommend some feats that work well for a sorcerer?

Try to meet the prerequisites of whatever Prestige Class you want to enter. For example, if you want Fiend-Blooded (from Heroes of Horror), you'd take Blood Calls to Blood (also Heroes of Horror) and Eschew Materials (SRD).

If you wanted Dracolexi (from Races of the Dragon), you'd take Eschew Materials.

A moderate optimization level seems appropriate for your group. Let's assume you're going to aim for the Dracolexi prestige class.


Race: Silverbrow Human (from Dragon Magic)
Stub: Sorcerer 5 / Dracolexi 8

Level 1: Sorcerer 1 (dragonblood racial substitution level)
* L1 Feat: Still Spell [Metamagic] (SRD)
* Human Bonus Feat: Sculpt Spell [Metamagic] (Complete Arcane)
* ACF Bonus Feat: Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon (Races of the Dragon)

Level 2: Sorcerer 2

Level 3: Sorcerer 3
* L3 Feat: Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane)

Level 4: Sorcerer 4

Level 5: Sorcerer 5

Level 6: Dracolexi 1
* L6 Feat: Fiery Burst [Reserve] (Complete Arcane)
* Draconic Word - Vor: This Draconic word, which translates as "learn," grants the target a competence bonus on Knowledge checks and Spellcraft checks equal to your class level for 1 hour.

Level 7: Dracolexi 2
* Dracolexi bonus feat: Eschew Materials

Level 8: Dracolexi 3
* Power Word spell: Power Word Pain (L1 -> L0)

Level 9: Dracolexi 4
* L9 Feat: Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon)
* Draconic Word - Ssearth: The target of this Draconic word ("prolong") is healed of 1 point of damage per caster level. If you speak this word as part of a spell, you can choose instead to extend the spell (as if you had applied the Extend Spell feat), but without any adjustment in spell slot or casting time.

Level 10: Dracolexi 5
* Bonus Spells: Suggestion or Insidious Suggestion (Races of Eberron), plus Whispering Sand (Sandstorm)

Level 11: Dracolexi 6
* Power Word spells: Power Word Blind (L7 -> L6)

Level 12: Dracolexi 7
* L12 Feat: Minor Shapeshift [Reserve] (Complete Mage)
* Draconic Word - Veschik: This Draconic word means "replenish." The target regains one spell slot (but not a slot that held a prepared spell) of the highest level of arcane spell it can cast spontaneously. If the target has not already cast any spells of that level, it instead regains one spell slot of the highest arcane spell level for which it has already spontaneously cast a spell.

Level 13: Dracolexi 8
* Voice in Silence


Spells Known (9+1 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 3 / 2 / 1+1):
L0 - Message, Prestidigitation, [Power Word Pain (Races of the Dragon)], +7 more
L1 - Benign Transposition (Spell Compendium), Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, +2 more
L2 - Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, +2 more
L3 - [Suggestion, Whispering Sand (Sandstorm)], Great Thunderclap (Spell Compendium), Dispel Magic, +2 more
L4 - Dimension Door, Polymorph, Evard's Black tentacles
L5 - Undying Vigor of the Dragon Lords (Dragon Magic), Wall of Magma (Sandstorm)
L6 - [Power Word: Blind], Probe Thoughts (Spell Compendium)


-- -- --

How it fits together:
- Draconic Heritage (Battle) gives you Perform as a class skill; you need Perform: Oratory for Dracolexi.
- Dracolexi gives you +3 Power Word spells known, each at one level lower than normal. This is amazing.
- Dracolexi gives you +2 [Language-Dependent] spells known at level 5; this is decent. Unfortunately there aren't that many [Language-Dependent] spells on the Sorcerer list.
- Sculpt Spell allows you to cast spells one level higher in trade for changing their shape into either a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, a ball (20-foot-radius spread), or a 120-foot line. For spells with a tiny area like Grease and Glitterdust, this is amazing. It's also good with Wall of Magma and Evard's Black Tentacles.
- Minor Shapeshift gives you 13 temporary HP as a Swift action, at will. These temp HP last for 4 rounds. Use this when you expect to take damage.
- Fiery Burst allows you to cause a 5 ft. radius burst of flame within 30 ft. as a Standard action, at will, which causes 5d6 fire damage (Reflex half). It's 5d6 because your highest [Fire] spell is level 5: Wall of Magma. Feel free to change that -- it's a decent spell but not superb -- but be aware that there aren't any superb [Fire] spells at levels 5 or 6.
- You have several SOCIAL spells: Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, and Probe Thoughts. You've even got a fantastic stealth + disguise spell (Polymorph).
- In combat, you're going to want to lay down some debuffs like Evard's Black Tentacles, Grease, Glitterdust, and Great Thunderclap. Then focus on killing jerks with Fiery Burst / Power Word Pain, or debuff a boss with Ray of Enfeeblement / Power Word Blind.
- Your panic buttons are Benign Transposition (melee-friend), Dimension Door, Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords (for direct healing), and of course Polymorph to fly away.

[Dirtydan]

Thanks you guys are very helpful

[ATHATH]

Er... You still haven't mentioned how you're going to get around your frankly absurd LA total (for being a Rakshasa). You're going to be casting at least 7 spellcasting levels behind a normal Sorcerer...

If your Bard is bummed about losing so much casting progression from taking Drunken Master levels, consider recommending taking levels in the Half-Fey template class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) to him. He won't receive any HD or skill point progression while taking levels in a template class, but always-on flight, immunity to enchantment spells, several 1/day and 3/day SLAs, and Charm Person as an at-will SLA are all pretty neat, and are probably worth losing 2 levels of progression on a non-primary caster.

[Nifft]

Thanks you guys are very helpful

Just FYI you can't use anything I wrote if you're a Rakshasa.

Those guys are their own thing. No class levels until ECL 15.

[ATHATH]

Why do you want to be a Rakshasa, exactly? If you just want the "cat-person" flavor, playing as a Catfolk or a Tibbit would be a much better option. Maybe you could refluff yourself as being a cursed/depowered Rakshasa?

[Dirtydan]

It's mainly for the charisma bonus and extra hit die favored class is sorcerer and I'm not going to word this correctly but they cast as level 7 sorcerer and stack that onto sorcerer levels

[Nifft]

It's mainly for the charisma bonus and extra hit die favored class is sorcerer and I'm not going to word this correctly but they cast as level 7 sorcerer and stack that onto sorcerer levels

They do cast as level 7 Sorcerers, but it costs them 14 levels to do so.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

They do cast as level 7 Sorcerers, but it costs them 14 levels to do so.

I think he is good if he buy this LA or if they are playing with 7 free LA or all at ECL14 before class levels

[Nifft]

I think he is good if he buy this LA or if they are playing with 7 free LA or all at ECL14 before class levels

If you get LA +7 for free? Yeah, then it's fine.

LA Buyoff for a +7 can't happen before level 20 so that's not a useful suggestion. (7->6 would happen at level 21, then 6->5 at level 39, then 5->4 at level 44, etc. -- not useful for most games.)

[Vizzerdrix]

Hello. I play sorc quite often. The trick when it comes to selecting your spells is simple. Look for spells that you will cast more than once per day and that you can see getting you out of at least two situations. Or, spells that are very good at what they do. Think of it as building a deck for magic the gthering knowing you wont have a sideboard.

Feats are much the same, but you want to get any that you need for a prestiege class (also called PrC) as well. And you want to PrC out of sorc as fast as you can, but into something that also keeps your casting progression.

Some good feats to look into are improved initiative (very good at what it does) heighten spell (extends the usefulness of several low level spells), and versitile spellcaster (gives you more higher level slots at the cost of lower level slots).

Some good low level spells include nerveskitter (useable at the start of every battle), magic missel (never miss, force damage that is great for stacking offensive metamagics on), glitterdust (very, very good at stunning targets AND can help find invisable enemies), and scorching ray (one of the best early sources of damage early on. Will need meta magics to stay relevent in later levels).

As for equipment, boosting your saves, primary casting stat, miss chances, and initiative are always good ideas. As are items that give you access to more spells. You will also want make sure you have your daily needs (food, water, etc) covered but that wont take much money. Weapons and armor are nice, but should be low on your shopping list. (If you do have spare cash for a weapon, a +1 eager, warning gauntlet is a nice option. Huge boost to initiative)

[ATHATH]

@Vizzerdrix: Glitterdust blinds, not stuns (IIRC), but it's still really good.

@Dirtydan: Yeah, they cast as 7th level Sorcerers (which cam be progressed by actual Sorcerer levels) and have 7 RHD, but they have 7 LA, which means that you're gonna be 7 spellcasting levels behind the curve. Remember that LA is separate from and stacks with RHD- I really recommend reading that monster guide that I linked to earlier in this thread if you haven't already, as it explains this stuff far better than I ever could.

[Dirtydan]

I see. I went over this character with the dm and he helped me set it up I suppose he didn't quite understand it then? Do you have any races in mind with a good charisma bonus? I was looking over some spells last night and thought it would be cool to permanency tongues and try to bluff check a lot. I want to play by the rules so I'll have to bring this up to the dm. Any suggestions on race would be greatly appreciated.

[ATHATH]

I see. I went over this character with the dm and he helped me set it up I suppose he didn't quite understand it then? Do you have any races in mind with a good charisma bonus? I was looking over some spells last night and thought it would be cool to permanency tongues and try to bluff check a lot. I want to play by the rules so I'll have to bring this up to the dm. Any suggestions on race would be greatly appreciated.
Well, Kobolds tend to be good Sorcerers, mostly due to the fact that they have access to the Dragonwrought feat (which gives them the Dragon type and thus opens up some interesting things) and the obscenely powerful Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Considering the power level of your game, I'd say that they're too stronk for it.

What kinds of things do you want to do/envision yourself doing? The Silver Pyromancer PrC tends to be pretty good for arcane blaster-types, as it lets them turn their fire damage into divine damage and adds all Paladin spells to their spell list(s).

And yeah, show your DM the monstrous handbook. How to handle RHD and LA is an important thing for him to know.

[Dirtydan]

End goal is we are fighting a level 20 wizard in a few months and i wanted to be able to survive dc while still having a good offense or at the very least let my team have a good offense up until now I was playing an eye of gruumsh full orc but he died I'm mot expecting anything close to the same damage as I got from him but the versatility is appealing from sorcerer I don't know much about multiclassing other then the exp forfeit and that seems less appealing I'm not looking for anything crazy over powered but something that can survive if my whole group gets hit with prismatic spray or the like.

[ATHATH]

End goal is we are fighting a level 20 wizard in a few months and i wanted to be able to survive dc while still having a good offense or at the very least let my team have a good offense up until now I was playing an eye of gruumsh full orc but he died I'm mot expecting anything close to the same damage as I got from him but the versatility is appealing from sorcerer I don't know much about multiclassing other then the exp forfeit and that seems less appealing I'm not looking for anything crazy over powered but something that can survive if my whole group gets hit with prismatic spray or the like.
So you want to survive anything that's thrown at you?

Behold, one of the best (if not the best) defensively-oriented prestige classes in the game for spellcasters: http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/sevenfoldveil.shtml

You might want to take some levels in Abjurant Champion while you're waiting to get into IotSFV (or after you've finished progressing in IotSFV), as having an auto-quicken effect on your low-level Abjuration spells is pretty nice (do note that Mage Armor is of the Conjuration school, though, and thus doesn't work with most of the class's abilities). You can qualify for it without losing spellcaster levels by being an elf or taking a level in the Ruathar PrC (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/ruathar.shtml).

Also, your group is one of the few that actually uses the multiclassing EXP penalty rules? Why? They're near-universally regarded as terrible and an antithesis of the concept of D&D 3.5 as a whole. If you absolutely must use them, do note that they don't apply to prestige classes and that a human's Favored Class: Any ability can help you avoid them.

Also also, you're planning to go up against a level 20 Wizard?! In that case, I have some advice for you: Buy life insurance.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ah. Well pump your initiative, grab dispel, wings of cover, and enervation. Then start the fight by stripping his buffs followed up with a twined, split ray, ocular, maximized, enervation.or stat damage. Both are quite good.


As for cha boosting races, catfolk get a boost, as do petals, but petals may or my not be plyable depending on hpw your DM reads their entry. Ive seen it argied both ways.

[Sleven]

Unfortunately you're out of luck when it comes to good Sorcerer guides (I've considered making one myself, just because there really is so little). The only one that comes to mind with half decent recommendations has them hidden behind jokes and pretty much forces you to go look up everything yourself. Still a great guide for a laugh though.

My personal recommendation to all aspiring Sorcerer players is that you actually start your career as a Wizard or StP Erudite. The main reason for this is that a Sorcerer really has to learn how to get the most out of each spell. For a player that's completely new, this is an impossible ask. Use classes like Wizard and StP Erudite early in your D&D career to get an idea of creative applications of spells without permanently screwing your build over before diving into the decisiveness required by Sorcerer.

That being said, if you're dead set on playing a Sorcerer, a few things might help:

1) Expand your spells known list in a meaningful way: It's pretty standard for Sorcerers to take the Apprentice feat (spellcaster version) and Mother Cyst + a Bloodline feat. You basically use this combination to swap out the Mother Cyst and Bloodline spells with any other spells you want, then retrain Mother Cyst and X Bloodline away. You keep the extra spells you swapped. It can even be done with a level in Sand Shaper if you want to take it up a notch, but don't lose any more caster levels than one on a Sorcerer. Really, these extra spells known should have just been errata'd into the Sorcerer class. It still wouldn't be anywhere near a Wizard power-wise (sans skirting the edge of TO-land, but at that point you don't need extra spells known to do it). Even if retraining is too cheesy for your table, the extra spells are still worth the feats (you just get screwed even more feat-wise).

2) Sorcerers are selfish specialists: maybe I've played in too many high-op games, but if you really want to play a Sorcerer that can survive you need to use a lot of your spells known on yourself (don't rely on items, or someone will just Chain Dispel them for 1d4 rounds and murder you). Wizards, Clerics, and Druids have the luxury of worrying about the team, your limited spells known means you don't. That's not to say you can't learn spells that can be very helpful to the team (like Solid Fog or Wall of Stone), but it means there's less of it to go around.

3) Diversify your build through advantages only offered to the Sorcerer: there are some things Sorcerers do that are just straight up better than the Wizard (like Ruin Delver's Fortune, Undead Battery, etc.). Find them and use them. Some obvious ones are Charisma synergy and metamagic diversity.

4) Build around a strong synergy and always be useful: other people have mentioned the mailman, this is an example of a strong synergy. Essentially, you want to use your feats and spells known to have at least 1-2 things you can do that can't be stopped, no matter what. Always be useful means having answers for all the different types of defenses and opponents you may face. Have spells that ignore spell resistance, for example.

5) If you read the rules, Sorcerers can learn spells off of other classes' lists: it's really not as good as it sounds. Unless you have a specific build in mind, most of the time you'll want to take all your spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list anyways.

[Rebel7284]

Versatile Spellcaster is one of my favorite feats. It boosts the number of higher level spells you can cast significantly. Whether you're sacrificing two 0 level slots for grease or two 4th level slots for Arcane Fusion, it's a great ability.

Some useful spells to consider:
Winds of Cover: This can essentially counter any targeted spell or any single attack as an immediate action. Excellent defensive spell
Arcane Fusion: Cast a 4th level and 1st level spell at the same time from a 5th level slot. Is super useful for a number of mini-combos.
Celerity: Taking an action pretty much whenever is extremely powerful. For bonus points, become immune to Daze.
Solid Fog: No-Save battlefield control is likely to make any combat with multiple enemies simpler.

Useful prestige classes:
Incantatrix: (make sure you're looking at the 3.5 version). This class gives you the ability to apply metamagic for free. Typically used for Metamagic Effect to apply Persistent Spell to make buffs last all day, however the other abilities are great too.

[ATHATH]

5) If you read the rules, Sorcerers can learn spells off of other classes' lists: it's really not as good as it sounds. Unless you have a specific build in mind, most of the time you'll want to take all your spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list anyways.
Note: This is a highly contested and argued over ruling, and you should never assume that it is in effect.

[Arguss]

Note: This is a highly contested and argued over ruling, and you should never assume that it is in effect.

Wrong,

Dragon Magazine 338, page 97, talk about it.
Dragon Mag is official and licensed source.
The Sorcerer can learn everything.
:smallbiggrin:

"Allowing sorcerers free acess to spells off other lists"


Miracle, Body outside Body, Minute Form, Giant form, Creepling Darkness, Surge of Fortune, Consumptive Field, Greater visage aspect, Choose Destiny, Triple mask, Holy Word and others overpowered spells is allowed to sorcerers.

[ATHATH]

Wrong,

Dragon Magazine 338, page 97, talk about it.
Dragon Mag is official and licensed source.
The Sorcerer can learn everything.
:smallbiggrin:

"Allowing sorcerers free acess to spells off other lists"


Miracle, Body outside Body, Minute Form, Giant form, Creepling Darkness, Surge of Fortune, Consumptive Field, Greater visage aspect, Choose Destiny, Triple mask, Holy Word and others overpowered spells is allowed to sorcerers.
Hello again, Lord_Drako. Come to "improve your English" at our expense again?

At least keep a new guy like Dirtydan out of this; I'd rather not have him be tempted to use your flimsy theoretical optimization strategies (while the one that you just listed is high PO rather than TO, I know what you always fall back to) in his low-OP game.

[Arguss]

Hello again, Lord_Drako. Come to "improve your English" at our expense again?

At least keep a new guy like Dirtydan out of this; I'd rather not have him be tempted to use your flimsy theoretical optimization strategies (while the one that you just listed is high PO rather than TO, I know what you always fall back to) in his low-OP game.

I just come here again, to break your failed argument. Nothing more.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/fd358d2b2e1eb3a0f9e65ac3868a0660/tenor.gif?itemid=4798351

[ATHATH]

I just come here again, to break your failed argument. Nothing more.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/fd358d2b2e1eb3a0f9e65ac3868a0660/tenor.gif?itemid=4798351
Gotcha.

Enjoy your ban, Drakeclone.

[Arguss]

Gotcha.

Enjoy your ban, Drakeclone.

A powerful sorcerer always return.

[ATHATH]

A powerful sorcerer always return.
What continues to drive you at this point? An unwillingness to give up? If so: Stop. Trust me, I've gone down that road before, and it isn't pretty.

[Arguss]

What continues to drive you at this point? An unwillingness to give up? If so: Stop. Trust me, I've gone down that road before, and it isn't pretty.

I just come here again to break your failed argument, nothing more. Kisses, later.

https://media.giphy.com/media/6Q2KA5ly49368/giphy.gif

[ATHATH]

I just come here again to break your failed argument, nothing more. Kisses, later.

https://media.giphy.com/media/6Q2KA5ly49368/giphy.gif
You do realize that your repeated attempts to get around bans only weaken your argument(s), right?

Also, that's a poor GIF for this situation. I think you're starting to lose what semblance of a "touch" you have.

[Nifft]

Note: This is a highly contested and argued over ruling, and you should never assume that it is in effect.

This +1.

It's a fine idea to ask your DM about stealing spells from other lists, but expect to have it shot down, and then expect to not care because most of the best spells are on your list already.


Look for spells that are versatile:

- Silent Image is the easiest way to pretend to be a wall or tree. Also not a bad way to fake monster tracks. Really the sky's the limit here.
- Benign Transposition is a solid battlefield teleportation spell which also has some utility value.
- Alter Self gives you +6 natural armor and 3 natural attacks, or it gives you a Fly speed, or it gives you a Swim speed, or it gives you a disguise.
- Heart of Water gives you something Swim something, and also you can also invoke Freedom of Movement as a Swift action. The latter is amazing.
- Polymorph turns you into an inconspicuous bird, or a legitimate melee threat, or ... yeah.
- Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation each mimic a wide swath of good spells.
- Wall of Stone makes a wall (duh), or a fort, or a house, or a bridge, or a dam.

[Arguss]

You do realize that your repeated attempts to get around bans only weaken your argument(s), right?

Also, that's a poor GIF for this situation. I think you're starting to lose what semblance of a "touch" you have.
Official Argument can't be affected. U just lose.

[ATHATH]

Official Argument can't be affected. U just lose.
"U just lose", ladies and gentlemen. Clearly, we are in the presence of an orator to rival Cicero.

[Arguss]

"U just lose", ladies and gentlemen. Clearly, we are in the presence of an orator to rival Cicero.

https://media.giphy.com/media/HuKiqTB2CKXf2/giphy.gif

[Sleven]

Wrong,

Dragon Magazine 338, page 97, talk about it.
Dragon Mag is official and licensed source.
The Sorcerer can learn everything.
:smallbiggrin:

"Allowing sorcerers free acess to spells off other lists"


Miracle, Body outside Body, Minute Form, Giant form, Creepling Darkness, Surge of Fortune, Consumptive Field, Greater visage aspect, Choose Destiny, Triple mask, Holy Word and others overpowered spells is allowed to sorcerers.

Hell, Oriental Adventures page 30 even straight up tells you you can do this for Wu Jen spells.

EDIT: And on this note, I'm bowing out. Did not realize I was responding to the sorcerer king guy.

[ATHATH]

https://media.giphy.com/media/HuKiqTB2CKXf2/giphy.gif
Perhaps an attempt to speak to you in your own native tongue will have a greater effect.

Ahem:
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/8d/8d55ef9ba0896e1c7cdaabd13f497b420fd3d0f3fdda578bb2 c43092a6598d16.jpg

[Arguss]

Ahem:


Please, I love u! I need back again!

[Arguss]

Hell, Oriental Adventures page 30 even straight up tells you you can do this for Wu Jen spells.

EDIT: And on this note, I'm bowing out. Did not realize I was responding to the sorcerer king guy.


True. I didn't realize it.

[ATHATH]

Please, I love u! I need back again!
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/841456062824230673/48AA9E26EC2BCA1035A9BEE68FC7FE39952DB26E/

I meant what I said, Drako.

[Calthropstu]

Screw all of the above claptrap.
This is your first time playing a sorcerer, and it sounds like the optimization level you arre looking for is "I'd like to have fun and not go super munchkin where I need a bachelors degree in character creation to understand my sheet."
Going full sorcerer is fine, though I recommend grabbing a prestige class that doesn't lose casting. If you can't find one you like, stick with sorcerer.
As for spells, get 1 attack spell per spell level and the rest go utility and buffs. For attack spells, starting at lvl 13 I recommend magic missle, melf's acid arrow, fireball, ice storm, cone of cold and disintigrate. Disintigrate is an amazing 6th lvl spell as it functions as both attack and utility (hard to find a better door opener.)
For utility teleport, fly and invisibility (NOT IMPROVED) are must haves. Other than that, grab what looks cool and useful. Don't forget you can drop spells and pick up new ones at every even level so if you find you aren't casting stuff, go ahead and switch out.
That's all you really need to have a decent always useful sorcerer.

[Arguss]

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/841456062824230673/48AA9E26EC2BCA1035A9BEE68FC7FE39952DB26E/

I meant what I said, Drako.


https://media1.tenor.com/images/721da0d1ed773ab9f133edb648dd9611/tenor.gif?itemid=3955425

[Arguss]

I really love sorcerer using under greater arcane fusion - Body outside Body (Learning from Wu Jen spells) and twin celerity + Supernatural Spells ( free mages disjunctions ). No save, no counterspell, no risk, no disguise. ^^

[ATHATH]

Screw all of the above claptrap.
This is your first time playing a sorcerer, and it sounds like the optimization level you arre looking for is "I'd like to have fun and not go super munchkin where I need a bachelors degree in character creation to understand my sheet."
Going full sorcerer is fine, though I recommend grabbing a prestige class that doesn't lose casting. If you can't find one you like, stick with sorcerer.
As for spells, get 1 attack spell per spell level and the rest go utility and buffs. For attack spells, starting at lvl 13 I recommend magic missle, melf's acid arrow, fireball, ice storm, cone of cold and disintigrate. Disintigrate is an amazing 6th lvl spell as it functions as both attack and utility (hard to find a better door opener.)
For utility teleport, fly and invisibility (NOT IMPROVED) are must haves. Other than that, grab what looks cool and useful. Don't forget you can drop spells and pick up new ones at every even level so if you find you aren't casting stuff, go ahead and switch out.
That's all you really need to have a decent always useful sorcerer.
Basically, this.

My Abjuration advice might still be of use to you if you want to specialize in not-dying, though.

Also, I disagree with the guy from earlier who said that a Sorcerer's spell selection has to be selfish. Helping your allies do what they do best/better tends to be an efficient use of spells known/spell slots, since buffing spells tend to be quite versatile and effective.

[Arguss]

Unfortunately you're out of luck when it comes to good Sorcerer guides (I've considered making one myself, just because there really is so little). The only one that comes to mind with half decent recommendations has them hidden behind jokes and pretty much forces you to go look up everything yourself. Still a great guide for a laugh though.

My personal recommendation to all aspiring Sorcerer players is that you actually start your career as a Wizard or StP Erudite. The main reason for this is that a Sorcerer really has to learn how to get the most out of each spell. For a player that's completely new, this is an impossible ask. Use classes like Wizard and StP Erudite early in your D&D career to get an idea of creative applications of spells without permanently screwing your build over before diving into the decisiveness required by Sorcerer.

That being said, if you're dead set on playing a Sorcerer, a few things might help:

1) Expand your spells known list in a meaningful way: It's pretty standard for Sorcerers to take the Apprentice feat (spellcaster version) and Mother Cyst + a Bloodline feat. You basically use this combination to swap out the Mother Cyst and Bloodline spells with any other spells you want, then retrain Mother Cyst and X Bloodline away. You keep the extra spells you swapped. It can even be done with a level in Sand Shaper if you want to take it up a notch, but don't lose any more caster levels than one on a Sorcerer. Really, these extra spells known should have just been errata'd into the Sorcerer class. It still wouldn't be anywhere near a Wizard power-wise (sans skirting the edge of TO-land, but at that point you don't need extra spells known to do it). Even if retraining is too cheesy for your table, the extra spells are still worth the feats (you just get screwed even more feat-wise).

2) Sorcerers are selfish specialists: maybe I've played in too many high-op games, but if you really want to play a Sorcerer that can survive you need to use a lot of your spells known on yourself (don't rely on items, or someone will just Chain Dispel them for 1d4 rounds and murder you). Wizards, Clerics, and Druids have the luxury of worrying about the team, your limited spells known means you don't. That's not to say you can't learn spells that can be very helpful to the team (like Solid Fog or Wall of Stone), but it means there's less of it to go around.

3) Diversify your build through advantages only offered to the Sorcerer: there are some things Sorcerers do that are just straight up better than the Wizard (like Ruin Delver's Fortune, Undead Battery, etc.). Find them and use them. Some obvious ones are Charisma synergy and metamagic diversity.

4) Build around a strong synergy and always be useful: other people have mentioned the mailman, this is an example of a strong synergy. Essentially, you want to use your feats and spells known to have at least 1-2 things you can do that can't be stopped, no matter what. Always be useful means having answers for all the different types of defenses and opponents you may face. Have spells that ignore spell resistance, for example.

5) If you read the rules, Sorcerers can learn spells off of other classes' lists: it's really not as good as it sounds. Unless you have a specific build in mind, most of the time you'll want to take all your spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list anyways.
^

You forgot Rings of Theurgy

[Calthropstu]

For feats, I recommend metamagic. Going for sudden maximize and sudden quicken is a great way to seriously deliver some nasty damage. Sudden quicken sudden maximized disintigrate is an amazing way to make enemies disappear. Especially undead.

[ATHATH]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/721da0d1ed773ab9f133edb648dd9611/tenor.gif?itemid=3955425
"No" means "no", Drako.

For once in your life, could you please take a moment to reflect on what you're doing? Would your parents be proud of you right now?

[Arguss]

"No" means "no", Drako.

For once in your life, could you please take a moment to reflect on what you're doing? Would your parents be proud of you right now?

"No" means "yes". Please just be a good guy.

[ATHATH]

"No" means "yes". Please just be a good guy.
You repeatedly come onto this forum after being banned several, if not dozens of times and being repeatedly shown that you are no longer welcome here, and you still think that you're in the right?

Wake up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YxaaGgTQYM), Drako. It's been two friggin' years since you first raised your "argument", and you're wearing everyone's patiences thin, including mine. Just let it go.

[Vaern]

As far as offensive spells, Burning Blood is good to have. I'm in an ecl 13 game right now and have encountered several trolls and a couple of devils with regeneration, which requires either fire or acid damage to put a stop to. And devils tend to be immune to fire. Burning Blood deals both fire and acid damage, making it more effective than Bigby's Offensive Finger at saying "screw you" to regeneration.

Secondly, Shivering Touch deals 3d6 dexterity damage with no saving throw, which will devastate a good number of things. Of note, every core dragon of every age category has 10 dexterity iirc, so you have a solid 50% chance of one-shotting a dragon successful casting.

[Zombulian]

I'm starting a new character, a sorcerer. Ecl 13 all books are excepted besides Dragon magazines I've never played a sorcerer before I was wondering what are the best spells and feats for my character we are pretty combat heavy so high damage spells would be nice I have no idea what feats are good in practice so any info is appreciated thank you!

All books excepted beside dragon mag? So this is a Dragon Mag only game????