Gestalt Desperado Warlord help

[Asteron]

Starting an evil gestalt campaign with Skull & Shackles. I am going to do something I hadn't done before: wield a firearm.

My choice for that is the Desperado Warlord. I'm a big fan of Path of War and prefer that over a straight gunslinger or like class. Would using the Privateer class archetype be worth it?

Race is Hobgoblin, just because I wanted it to be (I thought about human, but that's boring even if mechanically sound.)

I think my other side is going to be an Oracle for the Charisma synergy, with a focus on & either Waves or Elemental mysteries. I could be convinced of something else though (we do have an alchemist in the party already, so probably not that.) I thought about sorcerer, but another player is doing an Aquatic blooded one.

What sort of things should I look for in this build. Feats? Spells? Maneuvers?

Musket v Pistol? Reloading is a pain with muskets, but Phantom Sun stance takes care of that a bit.

We are limiting the firearms to the emerging firearms level, so it bear that in mind.

[Duskwolf]

Pardon for this may take a bit. Yeas absolutely take privateer and desperado. As part of taking the privateer template you can trade your gambits ( which have been nerfed) for ploys, sea combat let's you treat firearms as melee for adjacent squares ( which means it let's you use a lot more manuvers than the ranged ones that kinda are suboptimal for the most Part), using str for damage and to hit, one handed firearms count as light weapons for finesse or twf and you can reload with your hands full. This is fantastic.

Sneak shot as also thematic and great as is the ones that let you take modified gambits. Keep in mind you get amauter gunslinger and one deed as part of desperado and rapid reload at 2, with reduced twf penalties as part of privateer you could dual weild with only a - 1, you do not get another deed till 5 but you can take any deed at 5 from core or archetype (pisterlo or mysterious stranger).

While doing this you now recover as a full round action but is an acceptable loss since you do so with dazzling display.

For extra fun see if your Dm will allow you to use n jolly 's Gunslingers of proherya ( drive Thur rpg has it cheap) to switch out your deed for some great choices ( reload two handed firearms as a one handed for example ( sea combat let's you do str and an half when adjacent).

As for a build vs gunslinger it is far better even if you have to work a bit for an equivalent to dex to damage. I was going to play something similar in my current game but for thematic reasons and quite frankly to err have me try new roles I am playing a support rajah. Very interesting and different.

Best of luck, if anything I have said is incorrect I apologize but it seems to be kosher as far as I know.

[Duskwolf]

Post script, see if you can take radiant dawn playtest, some very good manuvers for healing and control.

[Castilonium]

Duskwolf is right, get Privateer. It's disgustingly good.

Now here's an important question. What are you going to do most with your actions? Full attack? Use standard action strike maneuvers? Cast spells with your other gestalt half? Privateer warlords use full attacks more optimally than standard action strikes because they have fewer TWF penalties and can use Sneak Shot for another attack. If you're using (most) strike maneuvers or casting spells, you can't full attack. You'll want your other class to give you passive abilities. Self-buffs from oracle are a good choice. A few battlefield control spells like Fog Cloud (or Cloud of Seasickness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cloud-of-seasickness/)) will be worth spending a spell known and a standard action on if they help you close in to melee range easier.

On your warlord side, you can also dip up to 4 levels of non-warlord classes and still have full IL if you take Practiced Initiator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/traits/practiced-initiator-combat/).

Try a level of Rubato Bard for free-action inspire courage and nigh limitless rounds of bardic performance per day.
A level of Bloodrager will give you rage, fast movement, and a bloodline familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar#TOC-Bloodline-Familiars). Pick the Protector archetype for +2 AC and +50% effective HP, or Mauler and the Undersized Mount (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/undersized-mount-combat/) feat to ride around on it for increased mobility.
A level of Gunsmoke Mystic will let you spend animus to reload or repair your gun as a free action. "But wait," you say, "that's wisdom based!" When you reach level 5, take a level of the Animus Adept prestige class. It'll change your animus pool from wisdom to charisma. More levels in Animus Adept will also make you better at buffing with free actions, and advance your Elemental Glyph mystic class feature.
3 levels of Aberrant Aegis + Student of the Astral Suit feat. Get 4 tentacles with grab, a sting, and tons of other flexible customizations. Incredibly powerful. Don't worry about the int-based power point stuff, the customizations don't care about intelligence.
A level of Swashbuckler with Combat Reflexes. Not as powerful as other options, but useful for self defense. Defend yourself with AoOs rather than immediate actions using Opportune Parry and Riposte. You get a lot of grit + panache since you're a privateer/desperado warlord.

[Duskwolf]

Castilonium agrees with me?! "swoons a bit" Love your guide even if it may be a reason several classes and options were banned in my current game I am playing in. ( def didn't help heh)

If you are looking for complimentary gestalt options I would think Oracle ( Dual cursed , spirit guide ( debate ranges on the lore hex use abuse but I think it works if you add the spells as spells known as opposed to prepared, having a variable list of wizard spells is very nice), lunar ( full strength animal companion tiger is an option) Frenetic as a primary curse ( roll twice to initiative , cha bonus to reflex saves later).

Depends on your play style mind you, and what your goals are but Rajah from the playtest ( base or bata, the archetype plays entirely different from the base I feel) is potentially very useful ( valued customer, at call merchant oh yes) and as I said Radiant Dawn is great, probably my new favorite Discipline. .

[Duskwolf]

Oh and narcissism from the Rajah playtest may be one of the best feats esp paired the ephemeral veil, the twins or the specialist also on playtest. Becasue who does not love move action teleport, flanking ghost copy of yourself for flanking fun or elemental based ammo as a free action ( if I read it correctly )

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DEPmWq8G3m1G8-tWZSGJNDfrx0T-lKaBPcHGOHiRNTE/edit#

[Asteron]

Thank you for the replies!

So what you guys are saying is that I need to be a switch hitter? That... is not what I was expecting. It's definitely not what I had in mind. I was going to go range only. Hm. I've got some decisions to make then.

Currently, my stats stand as thus: 10/20/18/12/14/20 (our array is 20/18/16/14/12/10, non-negotiable). I don't have the strength to really work strength based melee combat. If I go Dex, I will definitely need to wield a pistol, no? I could swap my 14 to Con, put the 16 in Str, & completely dump wisdom or Int. Yeah, that could work. Gonna be really feat starved for a bit, even with the 2 flaws.

I've never been too keen on multiclassing, but I do see the usefulness.

Would the Mystic be a better option then? I could rebuild with another side based on Wisdom too. Kaigun Marksman, perhaps?

[Asteron]

Also, I am one of the DMs for this game, but all decisions made for my character will need to be ok'd by him. I'll ask about the Gunslingers of Porphyra before I buy it though.

He's a newer DM, so we won't be using any sort of Veilweaving. He has used Psionics and PoW before, but I'd like to keep the number of newer things he has to keep track of down to a minimum.

[Castilonium]

Castilonium agrees with me?! "swoons a bit" Love your guide even if it may be a reason several classes and options were banned in my current game I am playing in. ( def didn't help heh)

Awww, thank you, I'm flattered! ♥


Thank you for the replies!

So what you guys are saying is that I need to be a switch hitter? That... is not what I was expecting. It's definitely not what I had in mind. I was going to go range only. Hm. I've got some decisions to make then.

Currently, my stats stand as thus: 10/20/18/12/14/20 (our array is 20/18/16/14/12/10, non-negotiable). I don't have the strength to really work strength based melee combat. If I go Dex, I will definitely need to wield a pistol, no? I could swap my 14 to Con, put the 16 in Str, & completely dump wisdom or Int. Yeah, that could work. Gonna be really feat starved for a bit, even with the 2 flaws.

I've never been too keen on multiclassing, but I do see the usefulness.

Would the Mystic be a better option then? I could rebuild with another side based on Wisdom too. Kaigun Marksman, perhaps?

You can be pure ranged if you want. But being able to melee with your guns is incredibly powerful. You get to add your strength modifier to damage, and you get a whole entire additional attack with Sneak Shot. You'll do less damage if you stick purely to ranged. That's fine, though.

Gunsmoke Mystic is unquestionably better than Kaigun Marksman. Just about every initiator class is better than non-full-caster psionic classes, as a general rule of thumb.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You know what might be fun? Convince your DM to let you take Gulch Gunner and dip 1-3 levels in Gunslinger. This lets your fight in melee with your guns at no penalty and recover grit for doing so!

[Duskwolf]

Okay, pardon if I sound a bit terse, insomnia not as much fun as you might think. I have tried to build what I think you are looking for in various forms since I started playing pathfinder and while I can show you the math, I have done it enough, it boils down to the system itself. Pathfinder is heavily and I stress this heavily biased towards melee and two handed melee. Sure you can make dex builds work, one handed etc but they typically they do less damage and often involve feats or specific builds. Archery is often touted as one of the strongest builds but can be very feat heavy and situational ( DR for example). Then of course there is the red headed bastard step child that is twf... Even our beloved Path of war while they allow you to do twf and such, it is not the best choice. Note to mention your ranged discipline choices are less than stellar. Can you do it? Of course! should you? ehh

Ranged can work but you have to work on it and pay for it via feats etc. While hitting ranged touch ac is very nice, there are other ways to be effective at damage and still be mobile than being a turret.

As for not wanting to use aksahic magic, it is so banal compared to path of war it is kind of like saying, you know I love meth but I just try to stay away from 5 hour energy drinks.

Thank you for your time.

Dusk
( I need a cool signature or somesuch, maybe a smiley face?)

A lot of math, some possibly faulty has been edited, never been called disingenuous before, first time for everything. I bow down before The great Elricaltovilla , I am as humbled by them as I can be and advise you listen to them.

[Elricaltovilla]

Dusk, you are using two different sets of calculations for your ranged vs. melee damage numbers. That's a bit disingenuous. I can provide some other damage calculations that are a bit more fair after I get home from work.

[Duskwolf]

I apologize, was not intended to be so. Was literally typed up before I left my house. While trying to ignore a children's TV show. ( never thought I would miss My little pony) I always try to learn and grow and has been a long time since I first started basic d&d and one thing that age and experience has taught me is that I can and will be wrong. Has been edited to non disingenuous.

Thank you

BTW Rajah is fascinating, Voyager not so much.

( insert cool signature here )

[Elricaltovilla]

First, I want to apologize to Duskwolf. Disingenuous was probably too harsh a word, but I was on my lunch break and didn't have time to really suss out the ideal response.

The errors I noticed were that you incorporated missed shots as a reduction in damage numbers for ranged attacks but not in your melee damage numbers, and that you used stances, boosts and strikes with melee but not with ranged attacks. This, combined with some of the ways you chose to round things I think made the point you were attempting to make a little unclear.

I will do my best to be a bit more thorough. The thing you want to do is eliminate as many variables as possible when it comes to builds in order to isolate what the actual differences are. To that end, we'll have two characters of the same level (6th), with the same BAB (Full), The same primary ability modifier (+4) and the same initiation modifier (+3).

So our Privateer/Desperado will be a 6th level character with an 18 in DEX and a 16 in CHA. A Zweihander Sentinel Warder will serve as our comparison point (per Duskwolf's prior math), at level 6 with 18 STR and 16 INT. At 6th level, both should have a WBL of 16,000 gp and should be able to easily afford a +1 weapon, but a +2 weapon is a bit of a stretch.

Our two characters will be facing off against an opponent of CR 4 (appropriate for a solo character of 6th level), in this case, a Barghest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/barghest). The relevant defensive stats being an AC of 17 and a Touch AC of 12. I chose these numbers because the slightly above average touch AC and slightly below average regular AC will help better compare the damage numbers.

Both our characters will have the same base attack value of +11/+6 (BAB +6/+1, attack roll modifier +4, +1 magic weapon). This gives our Privateer a 95/70% base chance to hit, and our ZS Warder a 70/50% chance to hit.

Each character has three feats to spend. The Privateer will be picking up Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. The Warder will have Power Attack, Weapon Group Adaptation and Martial Charge.

Each character will be "nova-ing" against the target for our first damage comparison. That means the highest possible damage that can be put together for that character. This will be a Full attack action with a damage-buffing boost and a stance that also improves damage.


6th level, Max Maneuver level 3rd
Stance: Tempest Gale Stance
Boost: Horizon Wind Lancet

Attack roll modifiers:
Base: +10
-2 Rapid shot
-2 Deadly Aim
+1 Point Blank Shot
+1 magic weapon
+1 morale bonus on attack rolls (Jolly Roger)
+1 Competence bonus on attack rolls (Blackpowder Prowess, Tempest Gale Stance),
Final Total: +10/+10/+5
Percent Chance to Hit: 90/90/65%

Damage roll modifiers:
Base- 1d8 (Pistol)
+3 Tempest Gale Stance
+1 Blackpowder Prowess
+1 magic weapon
+1d6 (one time) HWL
Final Total: (1d8+1d6+5)+(1d8+5)+(1d8+5). Avg damage 32.

Note that by 5th level, the pistol can be reloaded as a free action.



6th level, Max Maneuver level 3rd
Stance: Broken Blade Stance
Boost: Noble Blade

Attack roll modifiers:
Base- +10
+1 Magic Weapon
+2 (First attack) Noble Blade
-2 Power Attack
Final Total: +11/+9/+4
Percent Chane to Hit: 70/60/35%

Damage roll modifiers:
Base- 2d6 (Greatsword)
+6 STR
+6 Power Attack
+1 Magic Weapon
+1d8 (First Attack) Noble Blade.
Final Total: (2d6+1d8+13)+(2d6+13)+(2d6+13). Avg damage 64 (rounded down).


So based on the above, the warder will, assuming all attacks hit and deal average damage, double the damage of the privateer. However, the privateer will provide significantly greater consistency with their damage, and has yet to pick up the extra attacks that will ultimately be available to them thanks to manyshot, haste, better stance choices, and sneak shot. They also have access to bracers of archery to further increase their damage, which was not accounted for.

There are a LOT of caveats to the above. It's highly simplified, doesn't account for table experience, was put together by me in about two and a half hours, was put together by me, and uses some rather arbitrary choices and assumptions. But it illustrates a comparison between a gunslinger and a melee two hander decently well.

I can try to give a slightly more in depth explanation of what I'm trying to point out if it becomes necessary, but I think that this is doing little to help answer the original question of the thread. To actually address that, I'll say that both ErrantX and I were pleasantly surprised when we discovered we'd accidentally made the two archetypes compatible, and after we noticed it we worked hard to keep it that way. So from the guy who wrote the Privateer: if you do decide to stack them, you have my blessing and I hope you have fun with your character!

[Duskwolf]

Trust me I took no offense and admitted my work was off the cuff and probably error riden. I am a fan of your work as well as your many posts, among a handful of others, and believe you know of what you speak.

[Elricaltovilla]

Trust me I took no offense and admitted my work was off the cuff and probably error riden. I am a fan of your work as well as your many posts, among a handful of others, and believe you know of what you speak.

Well, I think your point still bears out through most games. Once the ranged style picks up extra attacks over the melee guy the damage will even out a little bit. There are other ways to add some extra damage, like dipping actual gunslinger for DEX to damage or using maneuvers like Searing Break.

But really I prefer PoW for its ability to provide things other than damage. Which I think it does better than a lot of people give it credit for.

[Duskwolf]

I agree actually, playing a rajah in a wrath of the righteous game currently with an 8 str and I am focusing on healing, status effects and support. Using sun's gleam ranged touch attack and ( if I am correct in my application) storm gauntlets veil melee touch attack to deliver my strikes through vassalage. It took me some effort to adjust from my normal more dpr mindset but it is a rewarding play style. That being said I am working on a goliath druid with mystic levels as a backup.

Thank you for your time, I know you more than likely have a lot to do but we do appreciate your hard work.

( witty comment here)

[Asteron]

Sorry for not responding. Been a busy couple of weeks and I had to shelf all PF stuff for that time.


Okay, pardon if I sound a bit terse, insomnia not as much fun as you might think. I have tried to build what I think you are looking for in various forms since I started playing pathfinder and while I can show you the math, I have done it enough, it boils down to the system itself. Pathfinder is heavily and I stress this heavily biased towards melee and two handed melee. Sure you can make dex builds work, one handed etc but they typically they do less damage and often involve feats or specific builds. Archery is often touted as one of the strongest builds but can be very feat heavy and situational ( DR for example). Then of course there is the red headed bastard step child that is twf... Even our beloved Path of war while they allow you to do twf and such, it is not the best choice. Note to mention your ranged discipline choices are less than stellar. Can you do it? Of course! should you? ehh

Ranged can work but you have to work on it and pay for it via feats etc. While hitting ranged touch ac is very nice, there are other ways to be effective at damage and still be mobile than being a turret.

As for not wanting to use aksahic magic, it is so banal compared to path of war it is kind of like saying, you know I love meth but I just try to stay away from 5 hour energy drinks.

Thank you for your time.

Dusk
( I need a cool signature or somesuch, maybe a smiley face?)

A lot of math, some possibly faulty has been edited, never been called disingenuous before, first time for everything. I bow down before The great Elricaltovilla , I am as humbled by them as I can be and advise you listen to them.


Wow, hostile much?

I'm not a noob to PF. Been playing 3.x for a decade and DMing PF for 3 years. I know where the flaws in the system are. My preferred style is in fact a 2hw melee warrior. However, I have never messed with firearms, so this is new territory for me.

If you check my earlier comments, I am not avoiding aksahic classes for any perceived imbalance. As I said, I have a new DM who has never dealt with the system. He has played with PoW classes before, so that is why we are allowing them. Aksahic is allowed in my games. It's a fun an interesting subsystem, although I will admit to not being a master at it.

The reason I am going this route is that nobody was stepping up to do guns and we all thought it was too thematic to completely pass up. I'd much rather be playing a melee brute, believe me. I am out of my element with this concept and I'm just trying to make it work.

[Asteron]

First, I want to apologize to Duskwolf. Disingenuous was probably too harsh a word, but I was on my lunch break and didn't have time to really suss out the ideal response.

The errors I noticed were that you incorporated missed shots as a reduction in damage numbers for ranged attacks but not in your melee damage numbers, and that you used stances, boosts and strikes with melee but not with ranged attacks. This, combined with some of the ways you chose to round things I think made the point you were attempting to make a little unclear.

I will do my best to be a bit more thorough. The thing you want to do is eliminate as many variables as possible when it comes to builds in order to isolate what the actual differences are. To that end, we'll have two characters of the same level (6th), with the same BAB (Full), The same primary ability modifier (+4) and the same initiation modifier (+3).

So our Privateer/Desperado will be a 6th level character with an 18 in DEX and a 16 in CHA. A Zweihander Sentinel Warder will serve as our comparison point (per Duskwolf's prior math), at level 6 with 18 STR and 16 INT. At 6th level, both should have a WBL of 16,000 gp and should be able to easily afford a +1 weapon, but a +2 weapon is a bit of a stretch.

Our two characters will be facing off against an opponent of CR 4 (appropriate for a solo character of 6th level), in this case, a Barghest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/barghest). The relevant defensive stats being an AC of 17 and a Touch AC of 12. I chose these numbers because the slightly above average touch AC and slightly below average regular AC will help better compare the damage numbers.

Both our characters will have the same base attack value of +11/+6 (BAB +6/+1, attack roll modifier +4, +1 magic weapon). This gives our Privateer a 95/70% base chance to hit, and our ZS Warder a 70/50% chance to hit.

Each character has three feats to spend. The Privateer will be picking up Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. The Warder will have Power Attack, Weapon Group Adaptation and Martial Charge.

Each character will be "nova-ing" against the target for our first damage comparison. That means the highest possible damage that can be put together for that character. This will be a Full attack action with a damage-buffing boost and a stance that also improves damage.


6th level, Max Maneuver level 3rd
Stance: Tempest Gale Stance
Boost: Horizon Wind Lancet

Attack roll modifiers:
Base: +10
-2 Rapid shot
-2 Deadly Aim
+1 Point Blank Shot
+1 magic weapon
+1 morale bonus on attack rolls (Jolly Roger)
+1 Competence bonus on attack rolls (Blackpowder Prowess, Tempest Gale Stance),
Final Total: +10/+10/+5
Percent Chance to Hit: 90/90/65%

Damage roll modifiers:
Base- 1d8 (Pistol)
+3 Tempest Gale Stance
+1 Blackpowder Prowess
+1 magic weapon
+1d6 (one time) HWL
Final Total: (1d8+1d6+5)+(1d8+5)+(1d8+5). Avg damage 32.

Note that by 5th level, the pistol can be reloaded as a free action.



6th level, Max Maneuver level 3rd
Stance: Broken Blade Stance
Boost: Noble Blade

Attack roll modifiers:
Base- +10
+1 Magic Weapon
+2 (First attack) Noble Blade
-2 Power Attack
Final Total: +11/+9/+4
Percent Chane to Hit: 70/60/35%

Damage roll modifiers:
Base- 2d6 (Greatsword)
+6 STR
+6 Power Attack
+1 Magic Weapon
+1d8 (First Attack) Noble Blade.
Final Total: (2d6+1d8+13)+(2d6+13)+(2d6+13). Avg damage 64 (rounded down).


So based on the above, the warder will, assuming all attacks hit and deal average damage, double the damage of the privateer. However, the privateer will provide significantly greater consistency with their damage, and has yet to pick up the extra attacks that will ultimately be available to them thanks to manyshot, haste, better stance choices, and sneak shot. They also have access to bracers of archery to further increase their damage, which was not accounted for.

There are a LOT of caveats to the above. It's highly simplified, doesn't account for table experience, was put together by me in about two and a half hours, was put together by me, and uses some rather arbitrary choices and assumptions. But it illustrates a comparison between a gunslinger and a melee two hander decently well.

I can try to give a slightly more in depth explanation of what I'm trying to point out if it becomes necessary, but I think that this is doing little to help answer the original question of the thread. To actually address that, I'll say that both ErrantX and I were pleasantly surprised when we discovered we'd accidentally made the two archetypes compatible, and after we noticed it we worked hard to keep it that way. So from the guy who wrote the Privateer: if you do decide to stack them, you have my blessing and I hope you have fun with your character!

Ok, so it's probably better to wield a pistol up close for the quicker reload.

Working from that assumption, I was thinking of making my main style to be twf up close with a pistol in one hand and a melee weapon in the other (I also assume that wielding two pistols goes against the reloading provision in the last line of Sea Combat, yes?) Deadly Agility gets me dex to damage in melee.

I can get dex to range damage from our houserule for weapon specialization (each weapon group gets a different benefit under Focus and Specialization.)

I won't be starting playing this character until level 4, when I relinquish the campaign to the other DM for the second adventure (we will alternate.) Featwise, here is what I have including feats from flaws and houserules:

Weapon Finesse
TWF
Deadly Aim
Deadly Agility
Piranha Strike

That sets me up fairly nicely to be in melee with a rapier in one hand a pistol in the other. No, not as good as a 2 handed weapon, but it can be functional.

I did consider using a musket and going strength in melee, but you don't really get more than one attack with a musket. Unless there are options I am missing?

I was forgetting the final step to get muskets to a free action (paper cartridges) and will be going that route, balancing strength and dex for melee and range damage. I'm going to take at least 5 levels of gunslinger for the dex to damage on the other side of the gestalt from Warlord w/ the Mysterious Stranger archetype (which doesn't stack w/ musket master, unfortunately). Don't know what I'll do beyond that.