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Nanolicious
2017-11-14, 05:55 AM
So a homebrew campaign I'm running draws inspirations from WoW and one of my players wanted a backup character that was WoW themed so I created the Guardian Druid as a path starting at 2nd level. Let me know what you think needs to be tweaked!
docs.google.com/document/d/1yqp9SMaF8bEL1qU-5qNclPB9MFIpniExbLnZPirvIvE/edit?usp=sharing
EDIT: Changed link to my new, updated doc

Yddisac
2017-11-16, 11:37 AM
Hrm. Weeeell. This is an awfully complicated beast to deal with, since it substantially rewrites the base Druid class as well as adding a subclass. Said "subclass" also gives out a ton of abilities — too many, I think, for a player to deal with, and certainly too many to balance. (Remember that the druid also has full spellcasting on top of all those wildshaped abilities!) I'll do my best to take a look at this by analysing individual elements rather than the class as a whole. I hope it's helpful.

Wildshape rules: Bear form's rules seem needlessly complicated. As far as I can tell, you barely get any bonuses from being a bear. You gain a puddle of HP, keep almost all of your stats, and are forced to make unarmed strikes with your own damage dice instead of the bear's in addition to losing multiattack. Yes, the bear gets a ton of bonuses later, but I'm not sure this isn't a needlessly complex way of adapting things. Why not use the bear form's physical stats and multiattack as a baseline and pile abilities on top of that? You can keep the player's mental stats as a bear without much trouble. (That way of doing things encourages the druid to invest in mental stats, too, which is probably a good thing when they cast from Wisdom.)

Wildshape forms: The forms are, as far as I can tell, okay in isolation. I couldn't find a cheetah stat block anywhere, but I found a panther and I figure that works about as well, and that's CR 1/4. Black bear is CR 1/2 and comes in at level 2, polar bear is CR 2 and comes in at level 8... It lags a bit behind the moon druid progression, which is good, because wildshaping is the moon druid's whole thing and you're providing other mechanics as well. I have no idea what the stats for a dire bear are, though, and I have the Monster Manual in front of me as I type this. As long as it's CR 4 or less, it's probably fine balance-wise, but I obviously can't use the class if I don't know what a dire bear is.
That said, I evaluated those assuming you get the full benefits of wildshape, which this class doesn't. So I'm not sure how that pans out.

Level features: The enrage mechanic... well, it makes it obvious this was adapted from an MMO, that's for sure. :V That said, I think it's a pretty intuitive adaptation that encourages the guardian druid to get in there and mix it up with enemies without weighing down gameplay too much.
The stuff you can do with it, though... good god, that's a lot of class features. Quick comments on all of them:

Thrash: Bleeding isn't a thing in 5e.
Bash: Draws attention to the fact that I don't know what the damage dice for an attack in bear form even are. I thought it was an unarmed strike that only dealt 1 damage...?
Iron Fur: Physical damage is divided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing in 5e. Also, is it worth getting hit a bunch to gain that resistance? And what kind of action does this use?
Mark of Ursol: When you say "magical resistance," is that a set of damage resistances or advantage on saving throws against spells? The latter seems... unbalanced.
Mangle: Not a fan of this ability. It straight-up replaces the normal attack when it's available, but it uses a different recharge mechanic than anything else in D&D. If you want to keep this ability, why not use a recharge mechanic like what monsters get?
Mighty Bash: The fact that the target doesn't get to repeat the saving throw and is just out of the fight for 3 rounds makes me... wary.
Growl: This is a rather clunky way of drawing aggro. Not a lot of verisimilitude there. Consider using a mechanic similar to the Battlemaster's Goading Strike, or the Compelled Duel spell?
Brambles: All that die rolling would slow down the game a lot. Consider using the armour of agathys spell as an example.
Iron Bark: Redundant with Iron Fur.
Nature's Guardian: Seems a bit fiddly compared to other 5e mechanics. Not a bad idea, though.
Uncanny Dodge: Seems forced.
Skull Bash: ...Is this a version of counterspell that isn't restricted by level? ...You could use this on the Big Bad to stop them from casting a campaign-defining spell. Just saying.
Stampeding Roar: "Your prowess as a bear can inspire others" is the best sentence I've read all week. But it took me a while to figure out what this even did, which makes me think it's more a 3.5e or 4e ability than a 5e ability, where simplicity is the goal.
Frenzied Regeneration: Nooooope. Dump this.
Moment of Clarity: I'd have to go through the Druid spell list to see if this caused any problems, but it might be fine at 14th level.
Demoralizing Roar: Why not just say they're frightened and call it a day?
Enhanced Moonbeam: Might be fine. Can you upcast this variant moonbeam? Probably not, if it doesn't use a spell slot, so... it'd be more an Enrage generator than actual damage by 18th level.
Elusive: This is a ridiculously good ability, but it is 20th level, and I have no idea how to balance capstone abilities, so it might be fine.

That said, that's nineteen abilities. That is way, way, way too many, especially when you consider the Druid class features and spells it's gonna get on top of that. Besides, a bunch of those abilities essentially do the same thing (Iron Fur/Mark of Ursol/Iron Bark/Uncanny Dodge all mitigate damage, Nature's Guardian/Frenzied Regen both heal...)

Here's my advice: Why not just make this a Druid circle without modifying the base class? Then you can distill three to five abilities from that long list that you think really epitomize the class and give those out. As a player, I'd rather have three really good abilities than nineteen weak, fiddly ones. And 5e was certainly designed with that philosophy in mind. I know you're adapting an MMO class, but I think you can paint with a broader brush than you're using. Capturing the spirit of the class, a bear that can tank really well, will probably make a player happier than adapting every level-up ability the MMO class gets in a game that prioritizes simple, sweeping abilities.

Nanolicious
2018-02-22, 03:50 PM
Hey! Thank you so much for the reply Yddisac. You really took the time to read through this and dissect it and I appreciate it tremendously. I forgot my sign in so apologies for the late reply.

As big WoW fans the idea of the class was to use as little of 5es current class but make something that literally feels like you're playing a WoW druid. I definitely took the time,after reading your suggestions, to bring some abilities in line with their actual 5e counterparts or balance them to bring them back from being OP like skull bash. It's my intent to have so many class features because you will be spending most of the time in Bear form and foregoing spellcasting mostly.Alright let me delve into your notes and reply and lets see what you and others think about my reasoning.


Thrash: I was making my own effect. This was to simulate a damage over time effect and Thrash in the MMO makes the target bleed. Should I name it something else?


Bash: Trimmed and put in with Mangle as one spell.


Iron Fur: I thought by adding that it was an instantaneous spell would clarify that this takes an action to perform. If not the case do you think this should take an action or bonus action? I think for what it provides it can take an action and be balanced. Yes it should be reducing damage taken from all physical damage by half. Should this be reduced to 1 turn length?


Mark of Ursol: Same as Iron Fur it should reduce magic damage from any school by half. Again should this be reduced in duration? It will take a while to save up Enrage stacks and since everything is using them you have to select what to use them for.


Mangle: So in WoW Mangle slows a target and generates additional enrage resouce but doesn't do a lot of damage unless it procs a reset. Recharging on 1d4 is actually a copy of 3.5 abilities. But I changed it to reset on critical strikes of other attacks to better reflect the WoW version of random proc.


Mighty Bash: I heeded your advice the target can now make a roll each turn to remove their stun. good idea!


Growl: Was thinking 3.5 Bards Master of Mockery style effect? But I changed it to Compelled spell with changes, its now a 30ft area effect to any enemy that can hear it and they all must roll. But if they succeed the Wis check when they try to move away from me it breaks. Thought that may be good give and take.


Brambles: Changed to just flat 5 piercing. That makes way more sense. I definitely have to think of things in a simpler way.


Iron Bark: True, removed. Works better in an MMO sense than this


Uncanny Dodge: It may seem odd but Bear tanks are the dodge tanks in WoW. They can't parry or block in that game so they rely on dodge. This is here because its supposed to mimic dodge tanking.


Skull Bash: Good catch, way OP I changed it to be in line with counterspell.


Stampeding Roar: It works pretty much exactly how it does in WoW so I think for people who like WoW this won't be as confusing. What would you suggest instead as a movement speed boost?


Frenzied Regen: A very integral part of Druid Bear tanking. I would consider reducing the effect, maybe a cap on healing. Heals all damage taken last turn up to a maximum of 10 health restored. Something like this. Changed to be a 6th level spell. Will need to rearrange the guide a bit to make things more clear.



Enhanced Moonbeam: Clarified and changed to a different ability completely that I think better reflects WoW bear while also balancing the class better. Renamed Galactic Guardian.

Moment of Clarity: Limited to self cast and touched based seems like it limited it enough. I would also have to go back and see if it caused problems but it didnt for me on my first pass. Other druids get a more powerful version at 18.


Elusive: Just a copy of a Rogues lvl 18 ability. Seems fine as a lvl 20 ability.


It explicity states that you forego any and all Druid abilities that arent listed in the Guardian Druid list. This means you dont get any Druid class features that aren't here. With pruning I will get this list down and some of these are really just copies or modified class features.

This is again supposed to completely rework the Druid, that was the intention. But I definitely do appreciate the feedback and I modified many abilities to reflect your suggestions.

EDIT2: I redid the entire thing and made it much better and easier to read. docs.google.com/document/d/1yqp9SMaF8bEL1qU-5qNclPB9MFIpniExbLnZPirvIvE/edit?usp=sharing

Nanolicious
2018-03-04, 05:52 AM
Bump. Were about to start a campaign at the end of this week with someone playing this character now and would really appreciate any feedback about if you think this class is balanced or not, or ideas for improvements. Heres a link again, docs.google.com/document/d/1yqp9SMaF8bEL1qU-5qNclPB9MFIpniExbLnZPirvIvE/edit?usp=sharing . I didn't see any rule that said I couldn't bump my post. but if I am breaking a rule I apologize.

Wryte
2018-03-04, 06:50 AM
That's... a lot of abilities and resource management. I would try to keep it simpler. Something more along the lines of:

Druid Circle: Circle of the Guardian

Guardian Wild Shape: When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain a unique Wild Shape form which you can enter as a bonus action on your turn. Your Guardian Form adds your proficiency bonus to its AC, attack rolls, and save DCs.

Guardian Form
Medium beast
______________________
AC 10 + your proficiency bonus (natural armor)
HP 10 + 4x your druid level
Speed 40 ft, climb 10ft
______________________
Str 19 (+4)
Dex 10 (+0)
Con 16 (+3)
______________________
Damage Resistances: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks
______________________
Keen Smell: You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
______________________
Actions
Bash: Melee Weapon Attack: +(4 + your proficiency bonus) to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC (12 + your Proficiency bonus) Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
Maul: Melee Weapon Attack: +(4 + your proficiency bonus) to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

Frenzied Regeneration: When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you learn to convert your magical energy into healing. While you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

Mangle: Starting at 6th level your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. Additionally, your Guardian Form gains the Multiattack action, which it can use to make two attacks, only one of which may be a Bash.

Ursoc's Might: At 10th level you gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws. Additionally, your Guardian Form's size increases to Large, and its Strength and Constitution scores increase to 23 (+6) and 18 (+4), respectively.

Galactic Guardian: At 14th level, you gain the ability to call upon the power of the heavens while transformed. While you are transformed into your Guardian Form, you can use a bonus action to cast Moonbeam once at its lowest level, centered on a point within 5 feet of you, without expending a spell slot. You regain the ability to use this feature after returning to your normal form.

Nanolicious
2018-03-04, 08:24 AM
That's... a lot of abilities and resource management. I would try to keep it simpler. Something more along the lines of:

Druid Circle: Circle of the Guardian

Guardian Wild Shape: When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain a unique Wild Shape form which you can enter as a bonus action on your turn. Your Guardian Form adds your proficiency bonus to its AC, attack rolls, and save DCs.

Guardian Form
Medium beast
______________________
AC 10 + your proficiency bonus (natural armor)
HP 10 + 4x your druid level
Speed 40 ft, climb 10ft
______________________
Str 19 (+4)
Dex 10 (+0)
Con 16 (+3)
______________________
Damage Resistances: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks
______________________
Keen Smell: You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
______________________
Actions
Bash: Melee Weapon Attack: +(4 + your proficiency bonus) to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC (12 + your Proficiency bonus) Strength saving throw or be knocked prone.
Maul: Melee Weapon Attack: +(4 + your proficiency bonus) to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

Frenzied Regeneration: When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you learn to convert your magical energy into healing. While you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended.

Mangle: Starting at 6th level your attacks in beast form count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. Additionally, your Guardian Form gains the Multiattack action, which it can use to make two attacks, only one of which may be a Bash.

Ursoc's Might: At 10th level you gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws. Additionally, your Guardian Form's size increases to Large, and its Strength and Constitution scores increase to 23 (+6) and 18 (+4), respectively.

Galactic Guardian: At 14th level, you gain the ability to call upon the power of the heavens while transformed. While you are transformed into your Guardian Form, you can use a bonus action to cast Moonbeam once at its lowest level, centered on a point within 5 feet of you, without expending a spell slot. You regain the ability to use this feature after returning to your normal form.

Are you saying to just have 4 class features total or just suggestions on what to rewrite? This is supposed to be akin to playing the Druid class and I balanced it against the other circles. Land gets 7 base druid features and 5 circle ones. With 1 of its circle features giving it a total of 8 additional spells that don't cost a spell slot to use. Moon getting the same amount of 11 features but no additional free spells. I don't think there's any classes in the game that come close to having 4 features and this is a complete rewrite of Druid as a new class so I was aiming to match it at 11 features. I reduced the number of spell slots this Druid has to balance it out.

EDIT: Renamed everything Guardian Form instead of Bear Form. Much better. Thank you for that example I liked the name a lot. and took it I shouldve gone with that in the first place. In addition I removed a few abilities to get down to 13 overall features, thats 2 more than Moon Druid and Land Druid and Land again has a bunch of free spells that this doesn't have. I reworked Frenzied Regen to something I think works better for both my specifications and simplifies it a bit while allowing it to scale and stay relevant. Mangle got reworked a bit too as did Galactic Guardian. I took what you said, and applied my own thinking based on the image I have in my mind of a WoW druid. Thanks so much for your help. I think this is looking really good it could probably be tweaked a bit. I'm including examples of the WoW abilities below so you may get an idea of why I changed things the way I did.

Frenzied Regeneration
10 Rage
Instant cast 24 sec recharge
2 Charges
Requires Druid (Guardian)
Requires level 40
Requires Bear Form
Heals you for 50% of all damage taken in the last 5 sec over 3 sec, minimum 5% of maximum health."

Mangle
Melee range
6 sec cooldown
Instant cast
Requires Bear Form
Mangle the target for 400% Physical damage,
Ability racial bear form Guardian (Level 40)
reducing the target's movement speed by 50% for 12 sec, and
generating 10 Rage.


Galactic Guardian Talent
Requires Druid (Guardian)
Requires level 75
Your damage has a 7% chance to trigger a free automatic Moonfire on that target.
When this occurs, the next Moonfire you cast generates 8 Rage, and deals 300% increased direct damage."

Wryte
2018-03-04, 04:16 PM
Are you saying to just have 4 class features total or just suggestions on what to rewrite? This is supposed to be akin to playing the Druid class and I balanced it against the other circles. Land gets 7 base druid features and 5 circle ones. With 1 of its circle features giving it a total of 8 additional spells that don't cost a spell slot to use. Moon getting the same amount of 11 features but no additional free spells. I don't think there's any classes in the game that come close to having 4 features and this is a complete rewrite of Druid as a new class so I was aiming to match it at 11 features. I reduced the number of spell slots this Druid has to balance it out.

I was intending it as a druid subclass instead of a fully independent alternate class, but I'm glad it helped you either way. :P I followed the Circle of the Moon Druid's feature progression rate exactly, and some of the features are drawn directly from Moon.