Has Anyone Seen Ultimate Wilderness?

[Palanan]

I’ve been cautiously looking forward to this one ever since I heard about it, but the first reactions haven’t been entirely positive, and I’m wondering if anyone in these parts has taken a look.

The main disappointment, if not acute nerd-rage, has to do with the shifter, the new base class that was supposed to be a naturey-polymorphing option in wilderness environments. Some people were apparently looking forward to it as the keystone of the book, but were bitterly disappointed by what they saw as a slapdash kludge of lesser features from the druid, monk and hunter. It’s being compared to the kineticist on the Paizo boards.

Beyond this one element, there’s also apparently a lot of reprinted material, slightly modified from its original source as a kind of stealth update. Animal Archive and Familiar Folio have been mentioned as sources, which sounds like Paizo went rummaging for slightly older material rather than creating fresh content.

So, has anyone looked at the book? Is the shifter as bad as some folks are saying? How much of the book is original vs. reprinted content? And is there anything really useful for running a wilderness campaign?

[Psyren]

I haven't read it myself, but from what i can tell it looks like it doesn't actually get to shapeshift until 10th-level. Before that, it gets Hunter-style "aspects" that do things like boost its ability scores or grant it specific natural attacks. From what I can tell, people wanted to shapeshift a lot earlier. I can see that being a disappointment, but at the same time, that'll be pretty easy to patch via archetype too if some designer down the line in a PPC wants to make something that can shapeshift at first level like the Metamorph Alchemist can. The base version of the class not being the strongest version is fairly expected (well, for the non-full-casters anyway.)

Beyond that, most of the reviews I'm seeing are positive, though they are on the Paizo site itself so take that with a grain of salt.

[Krazzman]

I haven't gotten it (will probably have to wait until after christmas...) but from what I saw posted on Reddit so far... I think paizo dropped the ball with the Shifter. And by dropped I mean hurled it with all their might down the grand canyon.

The rest of the book seems interesting though. But I can't stop being mad about the shifter... they could've taken a Totemist and gave it full bab and it would've most likely been better than the shifter. They could have looked at Warshaper, Changelings (3.5/Eberron) and Totemist to bring something good together but instead gave something that sounds underwhelming while (afaik) the shapeshifting focused feats in that book all have a required WIS of 19 or similar which would be a bit high for a Wildshape focused Druid.

[Kurald Galain]

Right, so a shifter made by the guy who did the much-maligned kinny? Guess I'll be skipping that book.

I've heard it also contains a Magus archetype which is underwhelming and poorly written, but which does get druid spells (some of which are very good!)

[Slithery D]

Right, so a shifter made by the guy who did the much-maligned kinny? Guess I'll be skipping that book.

Not the same guy, actually.

[Psyren]

As mentioned, I have to read it for myself (in detail, not filtered through the forum posts of others) to judge it properly, but if what we want is "martially-focused class that shapeshifts" we do already have that in the Feral Hunter and Metamorph Alchemist. At the very least, those two classes serve as a useful baseline with which to evaluate the Shifter's abilities and when they come online. Given that those alternatives exist, I'd rather focus on other material (like Starfinder) than evaluating yet another controversial class that others will dissect sixteen ways from Sunday anyway.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A friend of mine got it from his subscription, and it looked fairly interesting. I didn't look through the Shifter, but some of the feats are interesting, I don't mind the reprint of the Animal Archive/Familiar Folio stuff (I think there is still stuff untouched, and a lot of it was pulled from APs), and I quite like some of the new stuff, like the herbalism.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
…if what we want is "martially-focused class that shapeshifts" we do already have that in the Feral Hunter and Metamorph Alchemist.

Yeah, I think that’s more or less the consensus on the Paizo boards.

The shifter wasn’t really a priority for me—although I have to wonder why they only included one base class, rather than several, along the lines of Ultimate Combat. They must have had leftovers from the Advanced Class Guide…or maybe the shifter was the leftovers.

That said, I’m more interested in the wilderness-y aspects of the book, which most people don’t seem to be focusing on. Makes me wonder how much actual wilderness there really is in this book.


Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
…I don't mind the reprint of the Animal Archive/Familiar Folio stuff (I think there is still stuff untouched, and a lot of it was pulled from APs)….

Sounds like this is a real grab-bag of previously published material. I can’t say that impresses me, but I appreciate the heads-up.

Really, it sounds like they went dumpster-diving through their various product lines to find anything that was vaguely wilderness-themed. I was hoping for something that would be more of a Pathfinder version of the 3.5 environment books (Stormwrack, Frostburn, etc.) but I’m not getting that vibe here.


Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
…and I quite like some of the new stuff, like the herbalism.

That does sound interesting.

Is this the same druidic herbalism that appeared in Healer’s Handbook, or is this something completely new?

[Psyren]

The shifter wasn’t really a priority for me—although I have to wonder why they only included one base class, rather than several, along the lines of Ultimate Combat.

Base classes require a lot of design overhead, and you need an underserved niche to justify that. Most of the niches that are left have already been claimed by popular 3PP products, and Paizo has already committed to not stepping on their toes - even with psionics, which canonically exist in Golarion, they were careful to design something different enough that people would be happy running a Psychic and a Psion alongside each other or saying that both exist in the world.

I would wager there's just not a lot of design space left for base classes that couldn't be covered by an archetype of something existing.


Makes me wonder how much actual wilderness there really is in this book.

Eh, you can't judge from that. Look how much other material was present in Occult Advenutres, UM and UC, that got completely swallowed up in the discussion of the classes and archetypes. There are more players than DMs in the fandom and so the player-focused stuff gets more attention - it's as simple as that.


Really, it sounds like they went dumpster-diving through their various product lines to find anything that was vaguely wilderness-themed. I was hoping for something that would be more of a Pathfinder version of the 3.5 environment books (Stormwrack, Frostburn, etc.) but I’m not getting that vibe here.

I'd be willing to bet that part of the issue there is brand cannibalism - a lot of the info you seem to want can be found in existing APs and modules. For example, the ship sailing rules and stuff are part of Skull & Shackles. If they made a separate "Ultimate Stormwrack" book to compile that stuff outside of Golarion, that would mean fewer people buying the AP for those rules.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I thought the herbalism would be the same, but thankfully it reminded me of Rolemaster's herbalism. You search for them with foraging, and they're a sort of alchemical item/magic consumable, with a lot of different effects.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I would wager there's just not a lot of design space left for base classes that couldn't be covered by an archetype of something existing.

Probably true. But from everything I'm hearing, the shifter just doesn't sound that ambitious.


Originally Posted by Psyren
If they made a separate "Ultimate Stormwrack" book to compile that stuff outside of Golarion, that would mean fewer people buying the AP for those rules.

That’s certainly a different mindset. I wouldn’t want to spend the time to scrounge up stray bits of rules from every AP under the sun…and I certainly wouldn’t buy an AP just for those rules.

Generally I would want to buy a book that has primarily original content, and which reflects a lot of thought given to fleshing out campaigns in wilderness settings. There's plenty of space in that premise for both DM and player material, but it doesn’t really sound like that’s the case here.


Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
I thought the herbalism would be the same, but thankfully it reminded me of Rolemaster's herbalism. You search for them with foraging, and they're a sort of alchemical item/magic consumable, with a lot of different effects.

Although this is a small ray of hope.

...Even though I have no idea what Rolemaster is. But the approach does sound interesting.

.

[Psyren]

That’s certainly a different mindset. I wouldn’t want to spend the time to scrounge up stray bits of rules from every AP under the sun…and I certainly wouldn’t buy an AP just for those rules.

I agree, but at the same time, making books isn't cheap. Carving those rules out would be great, but not if there's an insufficient market for them. It's not too farfetched to conclude that anyone interested in running a nautical campaign might want to start with S&S anyway.

If they end up doing it I certainly won't complain, just saying I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Kurald Galain]

Reviews on the Paizo site are bad, really bad. Considering how most people rate towards the upper end of the scale (i.e. they give three stars for mediocre material, four stars for good, five out of five for excellent), that this book gets a rating of about 2.75 on average is extremely bad.

Oh, and they reprinted and nerfed a number of spells, such as Snowball. Meh.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

There were also rules for taking/creating trophies from creatures, and using them for magic items (with concrete examples for amounts contributed), but there is enough leeway for GMs to expand the system.

Edit: I noticed that snowball was in the book. How did it get balanced nerfed?

[Psyren]

Judging from the comments I think they removed the stagger. Which I'm totally fine with tbh.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Iirc Paizo outright said they wanted to make a dumbed-down “shapeshifter” for new players who would eventually move on to the Druid, rather than a proper martial shifter. Which is both confusing and disappointing

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Judging from the comments I think they removed the stagger. Which I'm totally fine with tbh.

Given that it was pretty much on equal level to Frigid Touch, which is a level higher, I certainly am not complaining. I did have a look at the magus archetype for a short time, and while it DID seem underwhelming (gives up ARCANE POOL), several parts of it were intriguing.

[Ssalarn]

The main disappointment, if not acute nerd-rage, has to do with the shifter, the new base class that was supposed to be a naturey-polymorphing option in wilderness environments. Some people were apparently looking forward to it as the keystone of the book, but were bitterly disappointed by what they saw as a slapdash kludge of lesser features from the druid, monk and hunter. It’s being compared to the kineticist on the Paizo boards.


I'd say that it would be much more accurate to compare it to the Slayer. It's kind of simple and boring without a lot of original options, but it does what it's supposed to do. You get claws and stat boosts, and can wildshape starting at 4th level. Compared to a lot of core martial classes that's actually pretty solid; the shapes you can take include a Medium owl or a Small falcon, so you actually have access to flight earlier than a lot of other classes. The class is simple and accessible, which is really a big selling point for the average player. It's hard to make a shifter that sucks too much since it gets built-in natural attacks, easy to track buffs, and monk unarmored training, but it's also a very plain and straightforward chassis so there aren't a lot of areas where you can apply system mastery to significantly break away from the classes baseline. Compared to a druid played by someone with a lot of system mastery it's pretty plain and limited, but compared to most other full BAB classes it's reasonably effective and does the things it's supposed to do.



Sounds like this is a real grab-bag of previously published material. I can’t say that impresses me, but I appreciate the heads-up.
Really, it sounds like they went dumpster-diving through their various product lines to find anything that was vaguely wilderness-themed. I was hoping for something that would be more of a Pathfinder version of the 3.5 environment books (Stormwrack, Frostburn, etc.) but I’m not getting that vibe here.


In all fairness to Paizo, Animal Archive and Familiar Folio have a lot of options that are really key to pet users, and if you play in PFS or want to use a book or .pdf, it's a lot easier if those rules are assembled in one place. Paizo splatbooks also aren't held to the same balance standards as the hardcovers, so having the mechanics get reviewed by the design team and polished or updated where necessary before becoming part of the core hardcover line has some value in it.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I like the new races, though. Revamped (and supported) Gathlain, Ghoran, and new Vine Leshies.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
…that this book gets a rating of about 2.75 on average is extremely bad.

I noticed that, and it did seem usual. Most of the one-star votes seem to focus on the shifter, but there are others that complain about "unplayable mess."


Originally Posted by Sslarn
I'd say that it would be much more accurate to compare it to the Slayer. It's kind of simple and boring without a lot of original options, but it does what it's supposed to do.

Interesting, thanks. Certainly another perspective to balance all the cranky comparisons to the kineticist.


Originally Posted by Sslarn
Paizo splatbooks also aren't held to the same balance standards as the hardcovers, so having the mechanics get reviewed by the design team and polished or updated where necessary before becoming part of the core hardcover line has some value in it.

That’s an elegant apologia for dumpster-diving. :smalltongue:

I can see your point here, but it makes me a little grumpy to think that the paperbacks I’ve bought are, from Paizo’s perspective, essentially collections of provisional rules.


Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
I like the new races, though. Revamped (and supported) Gathlain, Ghoran, and new Vine Leshies.

Sadly, this is not a draw for me. Again, nothing new, just rehashes of prior content. Meh.

Never quite got the point of the Ghoran. They’re plant people, that…give birth to a seed through their belly button, or somesuch. Doesn’t really grab me as a character concept.

And I can’t stand the Pathfinder leshies, but that’s very much an issue of personal preference.

[Ryuujin]

So the shifter gets d10 HD, 4 skill points per level, good BAB and 2 good saves. Not bad to start. It gets Aspects starting at 1st level. For some reason these are level+3 minutes per day. They start with 1 at 1st level and get another at 5th and every 5 levels there after, for a max of 5 at 20th. Out of 15 choices. These work like the Hunter Aspects. At certain levels they can combine more than one of these Aspects, though again limited by the duration.
They do not have an option like Hunters get of having one active permanently. They do not get an animal companion like Hunters or Druids.

At 4th level they get Wild Shape. This has limited number of uses, maxing at 8, and never gets to be at will. Yes the Shifter does not get at will Wild Shape like a Druid, or presumably a Feral Hunter. Like the Feral Hunter their Wild Shape can only take animal forms. Unlike a Feral Hunter that is because they can only Wild Shape into their Animal Aspect's form. Which means at 20th level they can turn into a max of 5 different animals. This otherwise works more or less like Druid Wild Shape, except it is Beast Shape II instead of Beast Shape I when they get it. Except that the only thing from Beast Shape II they get are size changes. The actual traits the form gets are listed under the Animal Aspect feature and are level gated. So certain features a Druid would get at 6th level when their Wild Shape becomes Beast Shape II the Shifter does not get while turning into the same form until say level 15.

These two features are clearly inferior to the Feral Hunter's versions. What does the Shifter get instead? It gets Monk Unarmored AC, though it gets half the bonus if wearing Druid armor. I can find no mention on whether this can actually be used while Wild Shaped, if it can that is nice but not as good as just using Wild Armor or something. It gets good BAB but that is less useful on a natural attack focused class as it cannot make iteratives. And it gets Claws.

The Claws. These seem to be at will. They do 1d4 damage. They do scale, but they scale slowly and are vastly inferior to what other characters could be using at the same level. Maxing at 1d10. They do get to eventually bypass some DR types. But DR Magic is not one of those types.

These are what it gets compared to say a Druid or Feral Hunter with a Companion that may very well be a better combatant than the Shifter, or Spellcasting.

Now I personally would rather not have Spellcasting added, or even an Animal Companion. But I am disappointed in the class.


Now maybe Archetypes can help? The Archetypes are Elementalist, Fiendflesh, Oozemorph, Rageshaper, Verdant Shifter and Weretouched. Just from the names they sound really cool.

First the Elementalist. Instead of picking an Animal Aspect at 1st level they pick an Elemental Aspect. They get a max of four. Their Wild Shape works like Elemental Form I. Kind of. Again you don't necessarily get what the spell says you do, you get size changes, and the rest is listed in the Aspect. They don't get Claws. Instead they get Elemental Strike which is a thing that they use with a Swift Action to enhance their melee attacks with elemental damage, cannot be used while under a polymorph effect, like say Wild Shape. It adds 1d6, scaling to 4d6, elemental damage to all melee attacks for a round. Other than not being usable while polymorphed it seems like more damage than the Claws. But it doesn't get any kind of overcome DR thing, or resistance in this case. So if you are fighting things resistant or immune to that element.


Next is the Fiendflesh Shifter. They have an alignment restriction. They must be evil. Their claws count as Evil for overcoming damage reduction. They don't get to pick an Animal Aspect at first level. Instead getting Fiendish Aspect. While in their Aspect they get a gore attack, some DR/good, eventually some wings, and doubling their fire and electricity resistance that the archetype grants them. Remember Aspects can be used only for level+3 minutes per day, in 1 minute increments. Eventually they gain Immunity to Fire and Electricity and some Spell Resistance while in their Fiendish Aspect. This Archetype never gets Wild Shape. Yes this is the first of the Archetypes to get rid of Wild Shape. They don't get the Monk AC bonus like the base Shifter. Instead they get that small scaling bonus that Monks or Shifters add to AC as a Natural Armor bonus, and they get fire and electricity resistance that scales. Since they do not get multiple aspects they cannot later combine multiple aspects so at 9th level instead of combining two aspects, they instead get to pick one of 3 abilities each time they use their aspect that gives an extra bonus. And at 14th level that same selection gets some more bonuses.

Next is the Oozemorph. Probably the Archetype that sounded the most interesting from its name. Turning into an Ooze! So right off the bat it gains Compression no matter what form they are in. You can squeeze into small spaces.
You are no longer humanoid shape. Your old race is no longer your base form. You count as an ooze and your original race. You become a protoplasmic blob of the same size and volume of your old form. You become Immune to crits, precision damage and cannot be flanked. All really nice things. But there are drawbacks. While in this new base form you have NO MAGIC ITEM SLOTS, CANNOT BENEFIT FROM ARMOR, CANNOT CAST SPELLS, CANNOT HOLD OBJECTS, CANNOT SPEAK OR USE ANY MAGIC ITEM THAT REQUIRES ACTIVATION, IS HELD OR WORN. Yeah.

So you do not get to pick an Aspect as an Oozemorph. Instead you can take on a Humanoid form a number of times per day equal to half your Shifter level, minimum of 1. For a max of Shifter levels in hours per use. While in this Humanoid form you can do those bolded things above. But again that is a max of 1 hour per day at 1st level. And remember you cannot carry any of that gear while in your normal ooze form to bring it with you. And any item that requires attunement by wearing/carrying on your body for longer than the duration of your Humanoid form obviously cannot be attuned. Theoretically you can maintain that humanoid form for longer than said duration, but it requires succeeding on a progressively harder save. And you are exhausted after using Humanoid form. This Humanoid form feature works like Alter Self. They do not get Wild Shape at 4th level like other Shifters. Instead at 8th level they can use the Humanoid form feature they had to change into more options that just Humanoid forms, in addition to Alter Self it can also be used like Beast Shape I at 8th level, and Beast Shape II or Giant Shape I at 15th level. This does mean that they get the most form options of all Shifters, though not really comparing to Druids or even Feral Hunters.
But their Wild Shape like feature is much later in their class. They do not get Claws. Instead they get two natural weapons that they can form. These natural weapons can deal any of slashing, bludgeoning or piercing damage chosen when they are formed and can be changed with a Swift action. They start at 1d6 damage, and do not scale. Instead they get a 3rd such attack at 6th level and a 4th at 15th level. They can use these natural attacks in any form, but this number of natural attacks is their max number. So a form with 1 attack can only add up to 2 more before 15th level. Their Wild Empathy cannot be used on Animals, but can be used on Oozes. They do not get the Monk Unarmored AC. Instead they get DR 4/Slashing, that eventually scales to DR 14/Slashing. At 4th level it gets a Climb speed, and the creator of this Archetype has gone on record as saying they intended that the Oozemorph literally CANNOT CLIMB at all before that point. It does not add Acid to damage or anything like that that a person might expect an ooze in Pathfinder/D&D to have. Nor paralysis or anything else one might expect an ooze to have. I do not see the Oozemorph surviving well since it does not get a second stat to AC, will not be able to wear armor most of the time before very high levels, cannot use magic items until very high levels and also even then may not be able to attune to the magic items that would help them. Also remember even if you did manage to get some armor on if you use any but Druid armor you will lose class features for a day. Conceptually cool but how would you actually survive like this.

The Rageshaper. Another Archetype that has an alignment restriction. Must be nonlawful. It gets neither Animal Aspect nor Wild Shape. Instead it gets Rage like a Barbarian. No Rage Powers. It is not actually called Rage and Rage feats might not work for it. While using this feature the character increases in size. How big it gets scales as it levels. Its weapon and armor do not increase in size with it and so odds are it will be naked very quickly as its armor is destroyed by using this feature. It can only be used for level in rounds per day. So you max out at something like 20 rounds. Before going any further I feel like I should point out basically all its class features from here on out require using this feature. There might be one or two small things that can be used outside of this rage, but for the most part they all require its use. They get Slams instead of Claws, they do not overcome various types of DR like the Claws do, instead they overcome a scaling amount of Hardness. They do not get Monk AC, instead they get +2 Natural Armor and DR 2/- again both while basically raging only. While doing this rage like thing they eventually become immune to the entangled condition and can jump his movement speed 1/day per level. This might even be worse than the Oozeshifter, though it can at least wear magic items that can maybe somehow scale with its size increases?

The Verdant Shifter does not get Wild Empathy instead getting Speak with Plants a limited number of times per day. Instead of picking an Aspect they get Verdant Body. This one doesn't seem to have a duration like Aspects so that may be an all around improvement. They count as their normal type and plant, get 25% immunity to critical hits and precision damage and a scaling Enhancement Bonus to Constitution kind of like some of the Animal Aspects would get. Eventually the 25% immunity to crits increases to 50%. Don't get Monk AC, instead getting +2 natural armor bonus while unarmored, but this one actually scales to +7 unlike the Rageshaper. Like the Oozemorph they don't Wild Shape into specific Aspect Forms when they get Wild Shape. Instead their Wild Shape uses Plant Shape I, scaling to II and III at various levels. Possibly the best of the Archetypes.

And finally the Weretouched. They pick an Animal Aspect at 1st level like most Shifters. But they only ever gain the 1 Aspect. Eventually they get DR /Silver. Like the Shifter their Wild Shape only lets them change into an Aspect form they have, thus they only have the 1 shape. However theirs gives a hybrid form instead of the normal animal.
Basically the same as the base but with a +2 size bonus, +2 natural armor, and count as their normal form for being able to use the Claws ability, and the size is the same as their normal size.

[Ssalarn]

At 4th level they get Wild Shape. This has limited number of uses, maxing at 8, and never gets to be at will.

It does last for hours per level though, so at top end you've got like 160 hours of use, which isn't terribly different than at-will unless you're in a situation where there's some benefit to popping back and forth between forms.


Unlike a Feral Hunter that is because they can only Wild Shape into their Animal Aspect's form. Which means at 20th level they can turn into a max of 5 different animals. This otherwise works more or less like Druid Wild Shape, except it is Beast Shape II instead of Beast Shape I when they get it. Except that the only thing from Beast Shape II they get are size changes. The actual traits the form gets are listed under the Animal Aspect feature and are level gated. So certain features a Druid would get at 6th level when their Wild Shape becomes Beast Shape II the Shifter does not get while turning into the same form until say level 15.

This is a little misleading. What the ability actually says is "[...]Often the major aspect's form grants abilities beyond the normal effects of beast shape II. Each major form details the abilities the shifter gains with that major form, and at what level; she gains these instead of the form abilities from beast shape II, but she still gains beast shape II abilities that are size dependent."
That's actually a beneficial rule since the shifter's version of wildshape never advances beyond beast shape II; her major aspects allow her to pick up abilities that are normally gated to beast shape III or higher. It's not as good as the druid wild shape ability, but what's actually happening is that the class is getting access to abilities the druid normally gets when it gains beast shape III at 8th level, like the tiger aspect's rake ability, at a later level when normally it wouldn't be getting them at all. You also get some things that the beast shape spells normally wouldn't grant at all, like racial bonuses to skills, bonus feats for your natural attacks, and the rage ability.


What does the Shifter get instead? It gets Monk Unarmored AC, though it gets half the bonus if wearing Druid armor. I can find no mention on whether this can actually be used while Wild Shaped, if it can that is nice but not as good as just using Wild Armor or something. It gets good BAB but that is less useful on a natural attack focused class as it cannot make iteratives. And it gets Claws.


There's no reason the ability wouldn't work while polymorphed, and it's actually really nice because it stacks with wild armor. If you're wearing non-metal wild armor you gain the full benefits of the armor and add 1/2 your Wis (+1 per 4 levels) to your AC, flat-footed AC, touch AC, and CMD. It's actually a pretty solid class feature.



The Claws. These seem to be at will. They do 1d4 damage. They do scale, but they scale slowly and are vastly inferior to what other characters could be using at the same level. Maxing at 1d10. They do get to eventually bypass some DR types. But DR Magic is not one of those types.

The biggest issue with the claws is that they need to be "popped" as a swift action, so you can't activate both your claws and your aspect during the first round of combat. They are two primary natural attacks available from 1st level though, which means that they're generally going to be better than TWF for at least a few levels, and by the time a TWF is pulling ahead in damage compared to your base claws you can transform into a pouncing tiger with full BAB whose natural attacks get all the abilities your claws normally would. The fact that the claws get to overcome all the material based DRs means you have more flexibility with things like how you spend your enhancement bonuses on an amulet of mighty fists; you need the +1 for magic but it's not as necessary to chase +1s if you'd rather add on cool effects, like making a shifter with a +1 sharding amulet of mighty fists who uses their pounce ability and Charging Hurler to launch a flurry of ranged natural attacks. Or whatever.



These are what it gets compared to say a Druid or Feral Hunter with a Companion that may very well be a better combatant than the Shifter, or Spellcasting.

I don't think you're likely to see many companions outperforming the shifter, but generally I'd agree that a hunter or druid alongside their pets is going to be a much more powerful force on the battlefield.

As to the assessment of the archetypes, I'd say that by and large they're anywhere from "thematically cool but mechanically weaker than the base class" to something I personally wouldn't take, but that's my general assessment of a lot of the hardcover archetypes. For example, I wouldn't play a rageshaper, I'd just make a point of grabbing Wolverine as one of my aspects on the base class since it specifically gives you rage like a barbarian, two rage powers using your class level as your barbarian level, and tireless rage two levels before the barbarian gets it. Maybe round that out with Powerful Shape.

Basically, if you compare it to a druid or hunter, it's going to look pretty weak because druid and hunter are two of the strongest classes in the game, especially when they have prep time to leverage their spells. But if you compare it to a Barbarian, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, or Slayer, it really isn't as bad as it's being made out to be and is pretty competitive with those classes, honestly much closer to the barbarian power-wise than the fighter. It also doesn't have to choose between pounce and flight like the barbarian does and can easily pick up both on the same chassis, though the limited uses of the shifter's wildshape make that benefit a bit less appealing than it could be since you'll want one form for exploration and one for combat, but can only switch between them a handful of times per day. Druid's vestments are practically a mandatory magic item for the class.