Using divination to be able to target aoe spells beyond obstructions

[Lord8Ball]

Dear forumgoers,

I have had a discussion with my DM regarding spells such as clairvoyance, arcane eye and scrying. My plan is to try and use these spells to target aoe spells such as fireball on a target by being able to see the target beyond an obstruction. My DM objects on the premise that all spells come from the caster and therefore cannot go through objects. I would have been fine with this except for the glaring fact that the spell descriptions themselves do not specify that the spell is projected in a straight line. I can see his caution about this tactic especially since I am taking spell sniper, but I see no reason that this would not work as long as I the caster am in range. I would like some input from this community to help me see your points of views so that I may convince my Dm or compromise.

Thank you,
Lord8Ball

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, unless otherwise stated, spells originate from the caster. Now, as a DM, I would let you, for instance, lob a Fireball up and over an obstruction, but I'd grant enemies advantage on their save (both fluffy, because they're able to see it coming more than they usually would and ready themselves, and for balance purposes).

But your DM has the right of it.

[clash]

Spells such as sacred flame or grease I would rule work in this way. But targeted spells or spells like fireball with the verbiage "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose" definetely do not

[Lord8Ball]

@JNAProductions & @Clash I thank you for taking the time to send me this input. Your observations have helped clear things up for me a bit. I am still thinking of uses for this strategy and help would be greatly appreciated.

[Burnteyes]

To get best use of these spells think of your character as a recon specialists. Use them often to get the drop on your enemies in combat. Tell your team everything you know. See as much as you can. Rogue, get your stealth on there is a path to get you in undetected. Bard, inspire us up. Warlock, Hunger will work well because they are all in a group. Ranger, dude in the back looks nasty as hell, target him first. Wizard, distract them from x area so we can best set up. Fighters, be careful of what looks like it could be a pit/trap in the middle. Etc etc.

[JackPhoenix]

PHB, p. 204:

A CLEAR PATH TO THE TARGET
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.
lf you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction. such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.

[Lord8Ball]

@JackPhoenix. Thank you for bringing that point up. Considering that I need a clear path and see the location noting that spells do not have to be be maneuverable in a straight line since it is not stated within spell descriptions. Divination may be able to remove the sight requirement in case of arcane eye. In which case I may be able to see the location and path required to maneuver the spell too considering it comes from the caster then this strategy could be possible. I agree with @Clash about the targeted spells in that spells that require attack rolls are not viable for this as an example rays which only go in straight lines. Maybe converting the spell range into movement could be a solution. I would still like some more input to be sure my interpretation is correct according to the rules in PHB, p. 204. Of course me and my DM will talk about some ground rules to prevent abuse.

[gluttonfree]

I feel that if there is a wall, the spell would definitely have to go over/around it to do it. Nothing explicitly says it for, say, fireball. Ya, I guess it depends on our DM.

[mer.c]

Now if the obstruction were something immaterial or gaseous (Darkness spell*, fog, etc.), that should probably be fine. Not sure if that helps you, but it’s there.

*As long as the Darkness spell doesn’t snuff out the spell in question.

[ThePolarBear]

@JackPhoenix. Thank you for bringing that point up. Considering that I need a clear path and see the location noting that spells do not have to be be maneuverable in a straight line since it is not stated within spell descriptions. Divination may be able to remove the sight requirement in case of arcane eye. In which case I may be able to see the location and path required to maneuver the spell too considering it comes from the caster then this strategy could be possible. I agree with @Clash about the targeted spells in that spells that require attack rolls are not viable for this as an example rays which only go in straight lines. Maybe converting the spell range into movement could be a solution. I would still like some more input to be sure my interpretation is correct according to the rules in PHB, p. 204. Of course me and my DM will talk about some ground rules to prevent abuse.

If you do not have a clear path to the target (i.e. the target is behind total cover) you cannot cast the spell - or better, the result is described in the next paragraph and depends on the nature of the spell.
"To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover."

Cover is determined by straight lines. Fireball still targets something, it doesn't have to be a creature. Unless a spell specifically allows you to ignore cover (Sacred Flame) or permits you to go where you can't see (like a "teleport" kind of spell), or the spell doesn't target something, or the spell has something even more special... no you can't.

Note that this is INDIPENDENT from sight: You can see a creature behind a wall of force, but if the WoF still grants total cover, you can't cast targeted spells (again, you can, with consequences - you can't target them) at anything that's beyond the wall. The line about cover implies the nature of most spells: straight lines.

Nothing stops you to fire a fireball and make it explode over an obstacle, however, if this would still cause the creature selected for crispy treatment to be in the area - but the ball itself won't "drop down", but explode at the mid-air point you chose and to which you had a clear path.

Obviously some kind of sense has to be used to adjudicate spells: teleports might be able to pass a glass pane, even if the particular spell targets "a point that you can see", because the description suggests that appearing and disappearing is not bound by physical movement in space, thus the obstruction might be deemed irrelevant.

[Kane0]

Sounds like a neat ability actually. Say around level 7-10 for a subclass, give them the ability to cast without line of sight/effect when they have a divination spell active.

[Lord8Ball]

@ThePolarBear Thank you for clarifying the issues of the topic and spending your time formulating your well thought out response. Though I am saddened that this tactic cannot work for most spells both you and all the other posters have led us to discover that it indeed can work in the case of sacred flame. Even if not to the effect of which I had originally intended it opened up a new combination that not many players would be aware of. I am glad that this forum had something beneficial to both the players and DM's not only in ideas,but actual practice. I thank all of you for participating in this thread and spending your time in debate.