Non-combatant build

[Westhart]

I didn't feel like booting up the usual buffer, nor the combat tank, but preferred to go the role of healer/skill monkey (too bad the game isn't gestalt :smallfrown:).

Books Allowed:
Core(including things like PHBII, MMII, and DMGII), Complete Warrior, Complete Aventurer, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Champion, Tome of Magic, Encyclopedia Arcane- Demonology, Encyclopedia Divine-Fey Magic, Encyclopeia Divine-Shamans, Deities and Demigods, Libris Mortis, Book of Vile Darkness(and probably Book of Exalted Deeds), Draconomicon, Manual of the Planes, Arms and Equipment, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon, Races of the Wild, Savage Species, Unearthed Arcana. Possibly Stormwrack, Sandstorm, Dungeonscape, and Cityscape.

My race isn't 100% sure, (I'm going silverbrow human, if he allows it, and if not whisper gnome) and we are allowed 2 flaws.

So, most likely going to use factotum for it, but if you have something better let me know. We're starting at 5th.

[Eladrinblade]

Ask your DM if you can play a beguiler with a healer's class abilities and spells instead of the beguilers.

[Westhart]

Ask your DM if you can play a beguiler with a healer's class abilities and spells instead of the beguilers.

How would that work, substituting a healers class abilities for a beguilers along with spells would just give you a healer... right? :smallconfused:

[Nifft]

Silverbrow Human Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge + 2 from: Illusion, Luck, Trade, Travel, Trickery)

You are the Chosen of Aasterinian (https://wiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Aasterinian), who is the Messenger of the Dragon Gods.

There's a level 3 feat Initiate of Aasterinian (from Dragon Magic) adds Bluff, Disguise, Speak Language, and Sleight of Hand onto your Cleric list, and gives you a few movement-oriented spells:

1st Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.
2nd Soul of Anarchy: You gain +5 on Escape Artist checks and grapple checks to avoid being grappled, your natural weapons are chaotic, and you are treated as being chaotic for adjudicating effects.
4th Invisibility, Greater: As invisibility, but subject can attack and stay invisible.
6th Shadow Walk: Step into shadow to travel rapidly.

Two possible builds:
L1: (Knowledge, Trickery, Travel) - Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion
L3: Fiery Burst [Reserve]

Alternately (without Trickery domain):
L1: (Knowledge, Illusion, Luck) - Feats: Knowledge Devotion, Able Learner
L3: Initiate of Aasterinian [Initiate]



Are those enough skills?

If not:

Fharlanghn's initiate feat (in Races of Destiny) gets you all the athletics skills; that on a Cloistered Cleric might be interesting. You'd have all Knowledge skills, plus Survival, plus Climb / Jump / Swim.

The Kobold domain gets you Disable Device, Search, and the Trapfinding class feature -- unleash your inner Dragonwrought cheese.

[Westhart]

Ooh, forgot cloistered Cleric... 'cept I can't worship another god as... I was a god... yeah, it's crazy :smalltongue:. But I can worship the principles... So I could still get those domains right?

[Nifft]

Ooh, forgot cloistered Cleric... 'cept I can't worship another god as... I was a god... yeah, it's crazy :smalltongue:. But I can worship the principles... So I could still get those domains right?

You can probably find better Domains, but the Initiate feats that I found would be worthless to you.

What's your principle?

[Westhart]

You can probably find better Domains, but the Initiate feats that I found would be worthless to you.

What's your principle?

So far my character is the healer type, with an emphasis on traveling. She prefers not killing, so trickery could be fitting (tricking someone so she doesn't have to kill them etc). While she isn't opposed to war she likes to minimalize the "fall out" (forgetting the word)

Just realized that she can use her domain powers a few times each day :smallredface:. Thus the cleric dip is unneeded and I'm finally going to get to try out the healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133118-Retooling-the-Healer-(Heal-it!-Heal-it!-No-one-wants-to-be-defeated!)).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ooh, forgot cloistered Cleric... 'cept I can't worship another god as... I was a god... yeah, it's crazy :smalltongue:. But I can worship the principles... So I could still get those domains right?
Sounds right.

Cloistered Cleric does pretty well skill-wise, as Nfft showed. If you want a little more skill and don't mind letting the healing slide a bit, Bards are about the best skill-users out there (Improvisation+Bardic Knack makes Cunning Knowledge cry in a corner). It's easy to power Touch of Healing to save on wands, you can pick up Healing Hymn to buff the crap out of your healing spells when you do need to cast them.

EDIT: If homebrew is being allowed, I've got this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317823-Mystic-Healer-PrC-(Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Expansion)-3-5-PEACH)feat/PrC combo to turn any caster into an effective healer.

[Thurbane]

Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric X can be a good healer/skillmonkey. The Ninja (if used with Able Learner) expands the skill list, adds trapfinding, and adds Wis to AC.

Although looks like Complete Adventurer isn't in the allowed books?

[kulosle]

Have you considered incarnate. Very fun skill monkey. I once did a build that was totemist 2 incarnate x. Took feats to get the stance that let's you heal 2 when you deal damage. And then get a lot of attacks with manticore belt. There is also a soulmeld that lets healing you do get increased by 2+2xessentia. Really useful and fun at low levels.
Dip psychic rogue for psycristal and the psionic incrarnum feats.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal
Thus the cleric dip is unneeded and I'm finally going to get to try out the healer.

For a naturey healer with skills, I’ve always wanted to try a ranger/healer going into Swanmay. Since BoED may be an option in your game, that could be one approach. I think there’s an issue with the wording of Swanmay spell progression, but a DM could be talked into allowing healer to progress.


Originally Posted by Thurbane
Although looks like Complete Adventurer isn't in the allowed books?


Originally Posted by OP
Books Allowed:
Core(including things like PHBII, MMII, and DMGII), Complete Warrior, Complete A[d]venturer….

It was hiding in plain sight. :smallsmile:

[DMVerdandi]

Archivist, fam.

Plays like a thick, tanky wizard. Scribe spells with divine spellcasters that know the spells, and get everything you want or need. Domain spells, spells from any divine list, etc.

Secondly, Archivist gets a few class features called dark knowledges, which helps you and other teammates with monster identification and finding weaknesses based on knowledge checks.

Fluff as the kind of Abraham van Hellsing , who's theological knowledge helps the team, or a cultist who's knowledge of the ways of darkness finds him insights, or a monster hunter, A la supernatural.

Have your book of words that shouldn't be spoken, and plumb the depths.




Cool thing is they automatically get cleric spells, so the healing, buffing and support is there, but you also have some pretty useful non-magical stuff going on.

[dantiesilva]

If you can get access to heroes of battle, the link in my signature Sister Rosalind is such a character. Her level 0 cure minor wounds heals 31hp at level 11 and will keep on getting higher. She can also cure most status effects with her healing spells, and once she gains access to 6th level spells can spontaneously cast heal. The rest of the build is radiant servant of pelor to maximize and empower all her healing spells. In the game so far she has only failed once to keep everyone alive (fireball vs two low HP pcs so had to pick one), undead melt before her, and those who survive her turn attempts normally get killed the next round from a smack of cure light wounds (1d8+32 damage). Hope this helps you some.

[Zombulian]

How would that work, substituting a healers class abilities for a beguilers along with spells would just give you a healer... right? :smallconfused:

I assume they mean using the Beguiler chassis. So you'd have the BAB, HD, saves, skill list, and skill points of a Beguiler, but with Healer class abilities and spells.

[Westhart]

Sounds right.

Cloistered Cleric does pretty well skill-wise, as Nfft showed. If you want a little more skill and don't mind letting the healing slide a bit, Bards are about the best skill-users out there (Improvisation+Bardic Knack makes Cunning Knowledge cry in a corner). It's easy to power Touch of Healing to save on wands, you can pick up Healing Hymn to buff the crap out of your healing spells when you do need to cast them.

EDIT: If homebrew is being allowed, I've got this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317823-Mystic-Healer-PrC-(Fixed-List-Caster-Project-Expansion)-3-5-PEACH)feat/PrC combo to turn any caster into an effective healer.
Jeez, why would you do that to me :smallbiggrin: Now I have to decide to use that or the retooled healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133118-Retooling-the-Healer-(Heal-it!-Heal-it!-No-one-wants-to-be-defeated!)). Although I think the homebrew was only allowed because it was a rework of a crappy class... I'll have to see.

Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric X can be a good healer/skillmonkey. The Ninja (if used with Able Learner) expands the skill list, adds trapfinding, and adds Wis to AC.

Although looks like Complete Adventurer isn't in the allowed books?
It is, and I think I'd probably go Factotum 1 for all skills :smalltongue: Although Wis to AC is nice...

Have you considered incarnate. Very fun skill monkey. I once did a build that was totemist 2 incarnate x. Took feats to get the stance that let's you heal 2 when you deal damage. And then get a lot of attacks with manticore belt. There is also a soulmeld that lets healing you do get increased by 2+2xessentia. Really useful and fun at low levels.
Dip psychic rogue for psycristal and the psionic incrarnum feats.
Psinics/Incarnum not allowed.

For a naturey healer with skills, I’ve always wanted to try a ranger/healer going into Swanmay. Since BoED may be an option in your game, that could be one approach. I think there’s an issue with the wording of Swanmay spell progression, but a DM could be talked into allowing healer to progress.

Hmm, that may be interesting.

Archivist, fam.

Plays like a thick, tanky wizard. Scribe spells with divine spellcasters that know the spells, and get everything you want or need. Domain spells, spells from any divine list, etc.

Secondly, Archivist gets a few class features called dark knowledges, which helps you and other teammates with monster identification and finding weaknesses based on knowledge checks.

Fluff as the kind of Abraham van Hellsing , who's theological knowledge helps the team, or a cultist who's knowledge of the ways of darkness finds him insights, or a monster hunter, A la supernatural.

Have your book of words that shouldn't be spoken, and plumb the depths.




Cool thing is they automatically get cleric spells, so the healing, buffing and support is there, but you also have some pretty useful non-magical stuff going on.
HoH not in my allowed books unless I missed it.

If you can get access to heroes of battle, the link in my signature Sister Rosalind is such a character. Her level 0 cure minor wounds heals 31hp at level 11 and will keep on getting higher. She can also cure most status effects with her healing spells, and once she gains access to 6th level spells can spontaneously cast heal. The rest of the build is radiant servant of pelor to maximize and empower all her healing spells. In the game so far she has only failed once to keep everyone alive (fireball vs two low HP pcs so had to pick one), undead melt before her, and those who survive her turn attempts normally get killed the next round from a smack of cure light wounds (1d8+32 damage). Hope this helps you some.
Character looks nice, however the DM doesn't have the book.

I assume they mean using the Beguiler chassis. So you'd have the BAB, HD, saves, skill list, and skill points of a Beguiler, but with Healer class abilities and spells.
Ah, that would be much better :smallredface:

[Anthrowhale]

Divine Prankster is a good PrC for this. You get good skills and full casting. At level 5 (ECL 10), you get 'enrage enemies' which is hilariously effective if they aren't immune to mind-affecting and yet consistent with being a noncombatant.

[Westhart]

Divine Prankster is a good PrC for this. You get good skills and full casting. At level 5 (ECL 10), you get 'enrage enemies' which is hilariously effective if they aren't immune to mind-affecting and yet consistent with being a noncombatant.

Yeah, I like the class, however I can't be a worshiper of a deity so that cuts it out.


On a side note: Can anyone explain to me how dipping factotum and able learner make you have all skills as class skills?
From what I can see it just cuts down the cost, not increasing it to an actual class skill (level+3) :smallconfused:

[Nifft]

Yeah, I like the class, however I can't be a worshiper of a deity so that cuts it out.


On a side note: Can anyone explain to me how dipping factotum and able learner make you have all skills as class skills?
From what I can see it just cuts down the cost, not increasing it to an actual class skill (level+3) :smallconfused:

It's a separate rule: if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, then your max ranks are (character level +3). If the skill is not a class skill for any of your classes, then your max ranks are (CL +3)/2.

If you're single-classed, then there's no case where cross-class 2-for-1 isn't also limited to half-max. But if you're multi-class, it's quite common.

[Westhart]

It's a separate rule: if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes, then your max ranks are (character level +3). If the skill is not a class skill for any of your classes, then your max ranks are (CL +3)/2.

If you're single-classed, then there's no case where cross-class 2-for-1 isn't also limited to half-max. But if you're multi-class, it's quite common.

[Face Palm]
...and now I feel stupid :smallbiggrin:

[ShurikVch]

If you OK with "bardic" stuff then there are some PrCs:
Artist's Vengeance (Dragon #307) - 1-level dip, because it's rare case of caster PrC with 8 skill points
Dwarven Chanter (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061128a)
Fochlucan Lyrist (Complete Adventurer)
Heartfire Fanner (Dragon #314)
Icesinger (Dragon #314)
Mourner (Dragon #311)
Worldspeaker (Dragon #311)

Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine) - for the 1st 4 levels

[Eladrinblade]

Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric X can be a good healer/skillmonkey. The Ninja (if used with Able Learner) expands the skill list, adds trapfinding, and adds Wis to AC.

Coming back to the thread, this is my favorite of the suggestions, and it's already built in while mine was not. I still like healers better, but you won't beat this.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eladrinblade
I still like healers better….

What in particular do you prefer about healers? The cloistered cleric is usually rated as pretty solid.

[Westhart]

Coming back to the thread, this is my favorite of the suggestions, and it's already built in while mine was not. I still like healers better, but you won't beat this.
I honestly prefer factotum+able learner to get everything, but like I also said earlier that wis to AC is nice.

What in particular do you prefer about healers? The cloistered cleric is usually rated as pretty solid.
Yeah, the healer is pretty bad honestly... At least from what I've seen/heard.

[Eladrinblade]

What in particular do you prefer about healers? The cloistered cleric is usually rated as pretty solid.

Well I did say you can't beat the cloistered cleric. I like healers because they're simple to play and really good at healing.


I honestly prefer factotum+able learner to get everything, but like I also said earlier that wis to AC is nice.

The wis synergy for a ninja is better for your cleric than the int synergy from factotum, IMO. Depends on your wis and int, really.

[Nifft]

I honestly prefer factotum+able learner to get everything

Keep in mind you don't actually ~get~ everything. All you get is access to things.

You still have to pay for each and every skill rank, and you can't afford to max more than a few skills total.

Looking at Factotum as if you actually got all the stuff that it gave you access to is a recipe for giving yourself heartbreak.

(Though from what I've seen in play, the "deliberately seeking mechanical heartbreak" demographic might be the Factotum's exact target audience.)

[Westhart]

Keep in mind you don't actually ~get~ everything. All you get is access to things.

You still have to pay for each and every skill rank, and you can't afford to max more than a few skills total.

Looking at Factotum as if you actually got all the stuff that it gave you access to is a recipe for giving yourself heartbreak.

(Though from what I've seen in play, the "deliberately seeking mechanical heartbreak" demographic might be the Factotum's exact target audience.)

Meh, meant for skills, I had a player who tried to dip factotum... ending up using his feats, for factotum (FoI) stuff, and then just totally rebuilt his character so he could go straight factotum :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, mechanically the ninja is probably better :smallbiggrin:

[SpamCreateWater]

I've player Healer before, using the simple reworked Healer (SAD casting, expanded spell list) on this board. I dipped Bard 1 for the Bardic Hymn ACF, and took (I think) Augmented Healing and Magic of the Land feats.

I can't remember what sources they're from, so couldn't tell you if any of these are allowed in your game.

[Nifft]

Meh, meant for skills, I had a player who tried to dip factotum... ending up using his feats, for factotum (FoI) stuff, and then just totally rebuilt his character so he could go straight factotum :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, mechanically the ninja is probably better :smallbiggrin:

Straight Factotum progression is technically playable. Not to my personal taste, but it's viable in many games.

Dipping Factotum seems to be generally bad, though, unless you have a plan to exploit Iajutsu Focus or something equally specific.

My usual go-to classes are Rogue / Scout, or (if I need spellcasting) Mystic Ranger / Beguiler.

[dextercorvia]

I'd like to advocate for Spellthief with the Godsblood Spelltheft (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feat for the healing domain.

You get the skills of a rogue including trapfinding, and you can steal spells from the enemy to heal your friends (or you can repurpose your friends' spells for healing as needed). If you can go Trickster Spellthief you gain access to the bard list (including most cure spells), so you can get your restoration spells from the Renewal domain.

[Anthrowhale]

Godsblood Spelltheft looks very good. If I understand correctly, a 18th level Spellthief can cast mass heal from the Healing domain via any source of 9th level spells.

Trickster Spellthief loses Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Search, and Trap Finding which may not be desired. (They keep Listen, Spot, and UMD.)

[Zombulian]

Godsblood Spelltheft looks very good. If I understand correctly, a 9th level Spellthief can cast mass heal from the Healing domain via any source of 9th level spells.

Trickster Spellthief loses Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Search, and Trap Finding which may not be desired. (They keep Listen, Spot, and UMD.)

...No. A Spellthief can't steal 9th level spells until 18th.

[Anthrowhale]

...No. A Spellthief can't steal 9th level spells until 18th.

Right, fixed.