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Drakeburn
2017-11-14, 11:45 PM
I'm just wondering how people feel about Dungeon Crawl campaigns. By that, I mean the kind where the whole campaign is about navigating through a massive dungeon.

In my opinion, one of the benefits of Dungeon Crawl campaigns is that player characters begin straight into the adventure. Though one of downsides to that is that it would kind of be like railroading. Also, aside from "you all wake up in a room with no memory of who you are, or how you got there", I can't think of many other reasons how the party got into the dungeon and why.

So, what do you think?

RazorChain
2017-11-15, 12:31 AM
I can only speak for myself but dungeon crawl is one of the most boring aspects of roleplaying games IMO. Fine if I'm playing a computer game but not the reason why I play RPG's to start with.

Vitruviansquid
2017-11-15, 01:52 AM
Having never played a dungeon crawling campaign, it sounds fun.

But(!) a dungeon crawling campaign would require a constant supply of interesting and novel encounters in a consistent, prepared space. I just don't see very many GMs as capable or willing to create a good dungeon crawling campaign.

Pugwampy
2017-11-15, 04:47 AM
I will say this about dungeon crawls . All classes are equal . Outside the dungeon , you start getting situations that favour one class above the others. Dungeons can be rather cramped sometimes .

A pure dungeon crawl with one species is a very boring situation . A dungeon with a whole zoo of animals and humanoids is unrealistic .

I am all for a mega dungeon as the centre of your campaign focus but having a town with colourful wierdos and having to walk through a scary forest between the town and dungeon adds so much flavour and substance to the game . Playing in dungeons full stop limits the whole DND anything and everythiing is possible experience .

Yora
2017-11-15, 05:34 AM
Dungeon crawl centric campaigns are quite different from what is now assumed by the term roleplaying. OD&D was called an Adventure Fantasy Game. The point of such games is not so much in playing out elaborate stories but in overcoming a series of varied obstacles.

Frozen_Feet
2017-11-15, 06:51 AM
I love the idea and have tried my hand at it several times.

First, getting player characters into the dungeon is easy. "There's a magic ring in there, go get it!" Even an unrelated adventure can seque into a megadungeon crawl if your players suck at mapping and get lost underground.

Second, coming up with a sufficiently big dungeon is hard. My last attempt consisted of over 30 A4 grid papers, and still one group of players proved that you could get to the bottom and back up in one session. If there is any way out, brace yourself for the players eventually finding it.

Third, related to above, you more or less have to use some procedural generation algorithm for really vast spaces. This will, in the long run, allow you to create and add on more material faster. How to Host a Dungeon, Veins of Earth and Praedor: Kirottu Kirja are good sourcebooks for this. The first deals with how to algorithmically create a D&D like dungeon and its entire history, the second deals with adventurers in truly vast underground systems, and the last deals with adventures in the ruins of megacity.

Fourth: unlike what people above suggest, you can put nearly any sort of roleplaying event in a megadungeon. A megadungeon isn't just a series of obstacles, it is an environment. But, the most important sort of roleplaying in such an environment is within the party. It's in dealing with the fact that in a megadungeon, you'll be spending days, possibly weeks, of time in confined spaces with freaks you opted to call your party members. Confined, dark, hostile places. Don't let your players forget this. I repeat: don't let your players forget this. The key to good roleplaying in a megadungeon setting is everyone remaining aware of the basic horror of the situation. Interactions with whatever lives in the pit are secondary.

Fifth, if the players don't figure a way out, don't hand it to them free. Don't give them opportunities to replenish resources that require no thought on their part. Don't allow easy replacement of dead character. If a player character dies, they can at best keep playing as one of their surviving henchmen or a captured/befriended monster. None of this BS where a same-level character with full kit of gear appears out of nowhere.

Darth Ultron
2017-11-15, 08:31 AM
They are great!

The general reason to go to any dungeon is to get loot....it is very basic. Though you can also put any needed item in the dungeon too, and that gives a reason to go there.


It is no more ''railroading'' then any other type of game. And, of course, in a dungeon crawl the players want to explore/go through/clear out/loot the dungeon....so no railroading is needed. The players will move from room three to four...because they want too.

Dungeon crawls have a high amount of combat, for people that like that. Also problem solving, puzzles and exploration.

Airk
2017-11-15, 10:15 AM
I see Darth Ultron didn't read past the subject line... :P

I find this to be a pretty limited format for adventure unless you are really interested in going the "Whole subterranean world" route, which, frankly, sounds like a foopton of work for not much reward.

That said, you should get over that "it sounds like railroading" hangup. If you are running a dungeon based game where everyone is in the dungeon because they need to find the Lost Stone of Stalactus and they won't be leaving until they do, tell your players you are running a dungeon based game where everyone is in the dungeon because they need to find the Lost Stone of Stalactus, and they won't be leaving until they do. If they say "Yes, great" then it's no more railroading than it is if you say "I'm running a game of courtly intrigue" and they say "Yes, great." You're defining the game that you offering here, not railroading anyone. Of course, given this, you should be prepared to face the prospect that your players are going to think like I do and say "Ehh... doesn't really sound that great." in which case you might not have a game.

Darokar
2017-11-15, 11:38 AM
I've never played one, but they sound really fun! My friend played in one once and got killed when another player rolled a nat 20. The other player was firing a rifle, and it went through a goblin and killed my friend. His next character became a lich and was killed in like, two turns. Then they spent 5 sessions trying to kill two spiders and a black pudding. Sounds like total chaos, but I'm sure they're not all like that.

kyoryu
2017-11-15, 11:54 AM
Megadungeon games can be great. I'm not a fan of other dungeons.

The thing about a megadungeon game is that it's basically a series of heists - "here's the dungeon, now go and get as much as you can out of it." Players decide where in the dungeon they go, what risks they're willing to put up with, etc. And while it's a lot of prep, it's reusable prep, as a given session should be one expedition into - and out of - the dungeon.

This also makes it very conducive to larger, rotating sets of players. You just play with whoever shows up, and rolling a new character is always an option, even for established players.

Ideally, you use some form of "gp for xp" as that makes the goal to get in and get out with treasure and rewards cleverness and lateral thinking, rather than just "oh, let's go find stuff to kill."

The idea of a dungeon as a series of rooms to clear out? No thanks.

Airk
2017-11-15, 02:18 PM
Megadungeon games can be great. I'm not a fan of other dungeons.

The thing about a megadungeon game is that it's basically a series of heists - "here's the dungeon, now go and get as much as you can out of it." Players decide where in the dungeon they go, what risks they're willing to put up with, etc. And while it's a lot of prep, it's reusable prep, as a given session should be one expedition into - and out of - the dungeon.

This also makes it very conducive to larger, rotating sets of players. You just play with whoever shows up, and rolling a new character is always an option, even for established players.

Ideally, you use some form of "gp for xp" as that makes the goal to get in and get out with treasure and rewards cleverness and lateral thinking, rather than just "oh, let's go find stuff to kill."

The idea of a dungeon as a series of rooms to clear out? No thanks.

I'm kinda confused. A megadungeon "campaign" implies you're stuck in the damn dungeon all the time (at least, the way the OP worded it) which is the exact opposite of what I think of when I think "supports a rotating cast". What DOES feel like it supports a rotating cast is you have a whole BUNCH of dungeons that you only go into for a single "job" before retreating. This seems a lot more like what you are describing to me?

1337 b4k4
2017-11-15, 02:36 PM
I'm kinda confused. A megadungeon "campaign" implies you're stuck in the damn dungeon all the time (at least, the way the OP worded it) which is the exact opposite of what I think of when I think "supports a rotating cast". What DOES feel like it supports a rotating cast is you have a whole BUNCH of dungeons that you only go into for a single "job" before retreating. This seems a lot more like what you are describing to me?

It supports a rotating cast because megadungeon campaigns tend to have a home base in a nearby town and sessions are single expedition to the dungeon trying to get further. Any new expedition can take new players. Prior sessions contribute to group knowledge about what awaits them and where they need to go

Frozen_Feet
2017-11-15, 02:45 PM
Phooey. A megadungeon is insufficiently mega if you can't get lost in there for days.

Now, of course, a megadungeon crawl can start from a home base, from which you perform arbitrary amount of initial expeditions to map out the surroundings and potential exits. But there should be both a point where it's clear you can't go further and still get back in one day, and a point of no return beyond which going back the same way is not an option at all.

kyoryu
2017-11-15, 03:07 PM
The "classic" megadungeon was basically a town on top of a dungeon - Greyhawk, Undermountain, etc. One session was one delve.

That's literally how Gygax ran it. I've been in games run like that. Forgotten Realms has all the stamps of starting like that.

It's a fun way to play, even if it is quite different from most modern games and how they're run.

Kaptin Keen
2017-11-15, 03:54 PM
If we imagine two dungeon crawl formulas:

1: Descend into the depths and defeat the inevitable dragon, and
2: Find a path through the underground tunnels under the Drakespine Mountains to the magical kingdom of Urfell beyond

Then I'd say that (1) is awful, and (2) is great.

Clearly the above are not the only options. But I require a bit more depth in games than 'dungeon goes down, and on the lowest level is a boss'.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-15, 06:00 PM
I can only speak for myself but dungeon crawl is one of the most boring aspects of roleplaying games IMO.

I'm agreeing here. Of course I've never been in a classic 'one session=one delve' game where the goal is to go in, explore, and come out with treasure (ideally enough to hit the next level, but that's unlikely), with a party large enough that 'can hit from the second rank' is a useful weapon trait. Sounds like it's own kind of fun, more like when I plagued HeroQuest than when I've roleplayed.

On the other hand I am planning an underdark campaign using Lamentations of the Flame Princess, but that's still got towns and cities (built along the walls of large caverns, the central area is generally 'farmland') and other hallmarks of normal campaigns, it just combines wilderness and dungeon areas into one (deeper tunnels ate home to more dangerous creatures, legends say that the core itself holds a great demon). I should really get Veins of the Earth to help with it.

Tanarii
2017-11-15, 06:12 PM
The "classic" megadungeon was basically a town on top of a dungeon - Greyhawk, Undermountain, etc. One session was one delve.

That's literally how Gygax ran it. I've been in games run like that. Forgotten Realms has all the stamps of starting like that.If you can't get out by the end of the session, the party is considered "lost" and another one needs to be sent in to recover them. (Or when a party inevitably suffers from a TPK of course.) :smallamused:

But IMO the key to this (which is also effectively what west-marches is, except wilderness), is the realization that it's not a single group of players with a single party of PCs following them as they adventure around every second of time. It's multiple PCs per player, far more players than can sit in a single session, and multiple single-session delves per week, with some specific number of downtime days between each session that you just skip past until the next group comes together. If you've got just one party with one PC per player constantly adventuring it looses some of it's charm and feeling.

It's also a LOT of work, even if you ad-hoc like crazy and steal stuff from all over the place. I can't even imagine trying to do a detailed home-brewed Megadungeon or West-marches wilderness exploration the Gygaxian method of very basic notes about what's in a room/square, and ad-libbing like crazy from that as to what the heck it's doing there and (if sentient) it's purposes and goals. Or outright stealing other content (from modules etc) and jamming it in wholesale.

LibraryOgre
2017-11-15, 06:58 PM
I'm just wondering how people feel about Dungeon Crawl campaigns. By that, I mean the kind where the whole campaign is about navigating through a massive dungeon.

In my opinion, one of the benefits of Dungeon Crawl campaigns is that player characters begin straight into the adventure. Though one of downsides to that is that it would kind of be like railroading. Also, aside from "you all wake up in a room with no memory of who you are, or how you got there", I can't think of many other reasons how the party got into the dungeon and why.

So, what do you think?

One of the first games I played started with a dungeon crawl (close enough). Why were we in the dungeon? Because there was a powerful magic item in there that we'd been asked to retrieve. That we needed to go into the dungeon, get the thing, and get out again was a major part of the campaign.

Tinkerer
2017-11-15, 08:21 PM
One of the first games I played started with a dungeon crawl (close enough). Why were we in the dungeon? Because there was a powerful magic item in there that we'd been asked to retrieve. That we needed to go into the dungeon, get the thing, and get out again was a major part of the campaign.

I also tend to be fond of the "start at the bottom of the dungeon and work your way out" approach. Particularly with mega-dungeons.

Knaight
2017-11-15, 09:01 PM
I personally have next to no interest in them, and find that they get old fast. With that said, the RPG hobby is effectively several fairly distinct hobbies stuck together, and the spot I occupy is pretty far off the D&D standard.

Pugwampy
2017-11-16, 11:27 AM
Given a choice I prefer multiple small dungeons to one huge dungeon.

War_lord
2017-11-16, 12:08 PM
I hate dungeon crawls, and feel no need to play or run a campaign like that when Computer games exist that can do the same experience far better then we can on a table top.

Piedmon_Sama
2017-11-16, 12:09 PM
Dungeoncrawl campaigns can be a lot of fun but yes, realism has to kiss the curb. That said, there are still a lot of shades between Wacky Gonzo Funhouse and Strenuously Researched Detailed Cave Network By The Way Did You Know Torches Would Go Out After A Few Minutes Underground IRL; it's actually not that difficult to work out a fantastical ecosystem of some kind, esp. with powerful magic societies like Drow or Duergar to cultivate it.

Variety is important. And not just fights! Varied tableaux---like, one "room" is a giant causeway over an abyss, another is a big jumble of archways and wall-walks piled atop each other at random, etc. and puzzles--maybe not literally like "do this sudoku puzzle to pass to the next room" but, for example, let's say in one room the party finds a magic talking fountain. Should they trust it?

There's really no reason a megadungeon can't provide enough variety and entertainment for 20+ sessions or more.

kyoryu
2017-11-16, 12:28 PM
There's really no reason a megadungeon can't provide enough variety and entertainment for 20+ sessions or more.

Some of the most stable campaigns I've seen were open table, megadungeon-centric games.

GentlemanVoodoo
2017-11-16, 12:49 PM
A double edge sword is what I call them. Your milage depends on your players. Those that like min maxing or straight combat will get the most out of them. Others that have none combat focus play styles wont.

LibraryOgre
2017-11-16, 01:35 PM
Given a choice I prefer multiple small dungeons to one huge dungeon.

On this, I refer y'all to B2: Keep on the Borderlands. Approached carefully, you can wind up with multiple small dungeon crawls that let the PCs take on a variety of foes.

Thrudd
2017-11-16, 04:41 PM
I hate dungeon crawls, and feel no need to play or run a campaign like that when Computer games exist that can do the same experience far better then we can on a table top.

If a computer game can do it better, you probably aren't doing it right.

kyoryu
2017-11-16, 05:52 PM
A double edge sword is what I call them. Your milage depends on your players. Those that like min maxing or straight combat will get the most out of them. Others that have none combat focus play styles wont.

A good dungeon crawl shouldn't be all combat, or even mostly combat.


On this, I refer y'all to B2: Keep on the Borderlands. Approached carefully, you can wind up with multiple small dungeon crawls that let the PCs take on a variety of foes.

Even a big dungeon should be like this.

Dublinmarley
2017-11-16, 07:06 PM
Massive dungeons can be fun but the problem is noise. When you have many side corridors and tons of rooms with a lot of encounters on any given level then when you start casting and banging metal on metal you should end up with tons of people running towards the sound. Temple of Elemental Evil and the huge Undermountain in Waterdeep are two fairly bad ones at this. They always seem poorly designed due to that problem. I much prefer a huge cave system with long distances between areas and a reason for all the things living there to work together.

RoboEmperor
2017-11-17, 05:03 AM
People who are in it to try out new crazy combos or are murder hobos love dungeon crawling. Put them in a non-combat scenario and watch them play league of legends and leave the game early when the party doesn't encounter a combat encounter.

Some people are just in d&d to cause mass destruction and nothing else.

LordEntrails
2017-11-17, 11:48 AM
Well, a Dungeon Crawl doesn't have to take place in a Mega Dungeon.

There are a hundred definitions of what a Dungeon Crawl is and another hundred defining a Mega Dungeon. And each of those definitions has as many connotations.

So, either of them can be great or horrible experiences. Like any scenario in an RPG, it depends on the GM and the players.

As to how do you get a party into a dungeon?
- Go get some treasure
- Go rescue the innocent captive
- Go get the legendary macguffin
- Go prevent the end of the world
- Thrown in a prison and find a secret passage
- Go kill the evil things that live there

As for railroading, a good dungeon (of any size) is not. Go read up on Jaquaying a Dungeon or Node Based Scenario Design.

Tanarii
2017-11-17, 11:59 AM
On this, I refer y'all to B2: Keep on the Borderlands. Approached carefully, you can wind up with multiple small dungeon crawls that let the PCs take on a variety of foes.


A good dungeon crawl shouldn't be all combat, or even mostly combat.



Even a big dungeon should be like this.
I'd hesitate to hold up B2 as an example of a dungeon crawl done right, despite it being my go-to introductory dungeon for campaigns for many years, and having run through it myself, both in every edition of D&D to date except oD&D. Because it IS mostly combat. At least 90% of the adventure requires combat, unless your DM just lets you talk your way past all the different groups, which is very unlikely.

Not only that, it's combat against large heavily dug in groups that can, and if the DM is playing them right should, totally swamp any group of approrpiate level that tries to take them on. The only way to honestly beat the caves is to throw a bunch of Pcs at them until you weaken the monsters enough to finally have the latest batch of Pcs live. Or use the classic tactic of 3+ fighters/clerics ignobily die so 1 wizard can run away gaining all the XP for the adventure so far, until the wiZard gets high enough level to nuke enemies long enough to keep fighters/clerics alive.

Or just go in with 10+ Pcs and Henchmen. You'll still lose half though.

Pex
2017-11-17, 12:28 PM
I like dungeon crawls, but not for the whole campaign. Dungeon crawls are board games in an RPG format. Combat, exploring, figuring out traps and puzzles are fun, but ultimately I want to play a character not a meeple. I want the game world to notice and care I was there.

Tanarii
2017-11-17, 12:47 PM
I want the game world to notice and care I was there.
That's why I liked the BECMI approach, minutes the I (which I've never played). Or the 5e approach, since it lends itself to the same thing really.
Dungeon / local impact / Tier 1 -->
wilderness exploration / national impact / Tier 2 -->
Ruling / continental or world impact / Tier 3 -->
planar / tier 4

That allows you to start with Bob the Fighter 2, and eventually develop him through game play into Robert the Bruce, savior of all Scotland. Or whatever.

This just so happens to sync up nicely with my (incredibly biased) knee-jerk belief that backstory is stupid, and character motivations and developments in actual game play are everything. :smallwink:

Corsair14
2017-11-17, 01:21 PM
As a one shotter or something to pass time if missing players, it is fun. Long term gets boring. This is coming from someone who loves reading mega dungeons.

Eladrinblade
2017-11-18, 01:49 PM
Gonna chime in here.

I don't really care for megadungeons, but taking an icewind dale approach is fine with me. I think dungeoncrawls are the best part of D&D; the game isn't built too well for stuff outside of dungeons. You can do it, sure, but it shouldn't be the focus of a game. My problem is that most dungeons are lazily built. I've never played through one in a game that wasn't just a bunch of rooms and corridors, elder scrolls style, with a few more or less balanced encounters here and there, in one unorganized string.

However, I did have an idea for a game that drops the players in a dungeon, with no gear, at level 1, with amnesia, in a prison no less, in the sewers of a massive underdark dwarven city. The whole city had fallen some time ago and was basically several inter-connected dungeons with a few various "towns" of groups that inhabited it.

ngilop
2017-11-18, 07:18 PM
...:confused:


My dungeon crawl experiences must be..wrong? or insert what ever term you want to use i guess.

I have never played a single game that was just 'roll roll roll the dice, now kill the dragon queen, murder-y murder-y, murder-y look at all the lewts' that people seem to be associating dungeon crawls with.

Mine have all had elements of intrigue, mystery, downtime for randoms whatevs, oh and combat. OF course combat.

If i played a game where it was just one thing over and over and over again, whether that thing be combat, social interaction, or prune farming... Id be bored as heck. I need me some variety.


I guess, and I know this is bad to say, but for me, if you are doing dungeon crawls and its just some guys throwing dice and screaming 'PHAT LOOTZ, YO'.. its probably being done wrong.

RazorChain
2017-11-18, 08:09 PM
When I started with BECMI and then moved to 2e the standard game was centered around dungeons.

We played myriad of dungeons from modules and dungeon magazine. There was a plot and it ended in a dungeon in whatever shape or form (castle, lair, caverns, mansion etc)

But we got tired of the playstyle. Paranoid twits examining every nook and cranny with our 11' pole, treating everything as a potential trap and every wall as a potential secret door. Planning on how to carry our devalued currency out of hard to reach places, destabilizing the economy and causing massive inflation. Rinse and repeat.

Eight years later our group had given up and now we only dungeon delve when its appropriate in the context of the plot, which is rarely. Now we just kick down the door to the villains hideout instead of carefully checking EVERYTHING for traps before we scope out the room through a keyhole.

Instead of fighting our way room to room through labyrinthine complex to a showdown with the villain (what them youngsters call a "boss battle"), we just kinda shorten the process to maybe one fight before the showdown. This way we dont have to spend our precious gaming time on playing a paranoid guessing game with the GM on where he placed traps or endless combat. That means we can focus our time on things we think is more fun

elanfanboy
2017-11-19, 12:43 AM
Ever read incarceron? Run sometging like that (ps its a book for those who havent read it)

Jay R
2017-11-19, 03:36 PM
Massive dungeons can be fun but the problem is noise. When you have many side corridors and tons of rooms with a lot of encounters on any given level then when you start casting and banging metal on metal you should end up with tons of people running towards the sound.

If you hear the sound of battle, and run towards it, you will face whichever side won that battle - alert, focused, buff spells already active, and with their weapons ready.

Me, I'd run away. Let's go find somebody who's asleep.


People who are in it to try out new crazy combos or are murder hobos love dungeon crawling. Put them in a non-combat scenario and watch them play league of legends and leave the game early when the party doesn't encounter a combat encounter.

Some people are just in d&d to cause mass destruction and nothing else.

I agree that the game you describe would be boring. But since it isn't particularly about dungeon crawls, and doesn't describe the fun dungeon crawls I've played, that fact is irrelevant.

DMs who just run combat encounters for murder hoboes are running boring games, regardless of whether the PCs have a roof over their heads.

Frozen_Feet
2017-11-19, 05:22 PM
If you hear the sound of battle, and run towards it, you will face whichever side won that battle - alert, focused, buff spells already active, and with their weapons ready.

Or wounded, exhausted, their buff spells already expiring, their best attack spells already spent, and distracted due to looting corpses of the fallen.

It's a great opportunity to cease. Of course, everyone else also knows that. So it's not the victors I'd be worried about. It's the other opportunists. Which is not an issue if they're most likely your allies.

Psikerlord
2017-11-19, 06:19 PM
I like for there to be some kind of megadungeon available to go explore in the sandbox, as one option among many.

I very much however dislike the "you're sealed in the dungeon, now you have to spend the next 20 sessions finding a way out..." scenario. Unless that is the upfront campaign buy in - eg: we're doing Escape from Undermountian or whatever. Then ok I know where it's all going and will make an appropriate PC.

LibraryOgre
2017-11-20, 11:46 AM
I very much however dislike the "you're sealed in the dungeon, now you have to spend the next 20 sessions finding a way out..." scenario. Unless that is the upfront campaign buy in - eg: we're doing Escape from Undermountian or whatever. Then ok I know where it's all going and will make an appropriate PC.

Or a highly INAPPROPRIATE PC.

"We're doing Escape from Undermountain."
"Ok, I'm playing... Milbo Maggins."
"Why is a homebody gentlehobbit stuck in Undermountain?"
"That's your job to figure out, screen-monkey. I'm going to bemoan the loss of my handkerchief."

Eradis
2017-11-20, 03:26 PM
I'm just wondering how people feel about Dungeon Crawl campaigns. By that, I mean the kind where the whole campaign is about navigating through a massive dungeon.

In my opinion, one of the benefits of Dungeon Crawl campaigns is that player characters begin straight into the adventure. Though one of downsides to that is that it would kind of be like railroading. Also, aside from "you all wake up in a room with no memory of who you are, or how you got there", I can't think of many other reasons how the party got into the dungeon and why.

So, what do you think?

I wouldn't mind a Dungeon Crawl with a pinch of RP elements. Pure dungeon-crawling becomes heavy to play as you keep doing pretty much the same things. Of course you test your skills in many different circumstances, which is nice, but adding just a touch of role play element would make it feel more like the players are achieving something. To keep it like, a concept such as "How to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon" or "Tower of [I don't remember the tower's name]", would be good example on how it could be made. In those settings, you are mostly an adventurers trying to reach the top of the tower, or bottom of the dungeon or whatever place you want to crawl to achieve something big. Either it be preventing the waking demon to destroy the world or unlock a new region for the community to expand (like in Sword Art Online (even though they were fighting for their freedom, it did unlock new regions that offered the adventurers new gear options)).

Glorthindel
2017-11-21, 10:51 AM
Massive dungeons can be fun but the problem is noise. When you have many side corridors and tons of rooms with a lot of encounters on any given level then when you start casting and banging metal on metal you should end up with tons of people running towards the sound. Temple of Elemental Evil and the huge Undermountain in Waterdeep are two fairly bad ones at this. They always seem poorly designed due to that problem. I much prefer a huge cave system with long distances between areas and a reason for all the things living there to work together.

I played through the Temple of Elemental Evil (well, the Hackmaster variation, Temple of Existential Evil) with a DM that believed strongly in "realistic reactions to noisy characters banging around" and frequently took part in pitched mixed-direction battles (it helped that we were all lugging around 2-3 henchmen alongside our main characters).

I can't remember which floor it was (but it had a Purple Worm on it!), but on one lower floor we ended up taking on the entire floors worth of monsters in a single pitched battle. Fortunately I was playing a Mage and had been hoarding a few one-shot magic items (I was rapid-firing beads of force at one point), and really had to dig deep in the bag of tricks, but it was a phenomenal encounter.

Ezeze
2017-11-21, 11:35 AM
unlike what people above suggest, you can put nearly any sort of roleplaying event in a megadungeon. A megadungeon isn't just a series of obstacles, it is an environment. But, the most important sort of roleplaying in such an environment is within the party. It's in dealing with the fact that in a megadungeon, you'll be spending days, possibly weeks, of time in confined spaces with freaks you opted to call your party members. Confined, dark, hostile places. Don't let your players forget this. I repeat: don't let your players forget this. The key to good roleplaying in a megadungeon setting is everyone remaining aware of the basic horror of the situation. Interactions with whatever lives in the pit are secondary.

Oh man, if someone actually ran a dungeon crawl this way (and the other PCs were on board and enthusiastic) I might actually enjoy it.

Which would be a first for me. I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons for better than a decade now and have yet to have fun on a dungeon crawl.

I've also yet to have fun running a pre-published module and for the same reason; roleplaying falls flat if no one and nothing you are interacting with responds at all in any meaningful way.

Aliquid
2017-11-21, 01:27 PM
I'm just wondering how people feel about Dungeon Crawl campaigns. By that, I mean the kind where the whole campaign is about navigating through a massive dungeon.

In my opinion, one of the benefits of Dungeon Crawl campaigns is that player characters begin straight into the adventure. Though one of downsides to that is that it would kind of be like railroading. Also, aside from "you all wake up in a room with no memory of who you are, or how you got there", I can't think of many other reasons how the party got into the dungeon and why.

So, what do you think?If you are looking for an old-school hack and slash campaign of "kill monsters, collect loot, level up, kill bigger monsters", then you don't need a reason to go into the dungeon. If the players want and need a reason, then they aren't the type of players that would enjoy this type of campaign in the first place. As someonenoone11 said:
People who are in it to try out new crazy combos or are murder hobos love dungeon crawling. Put them in a non-combat scenario and watch them play league of legends and leave the game early when the party doesn't encounter a combat encounter.

Some people are just in d&d to cause mass destruction and nothing else.


Now on the other hand if you want to make an interesting adventure for people who want to role-play rather than just roll-play... then it would be a bit more challenging to make a Dungeon Crawl campaign. As a player I would have trouble immersing myself into the story unless the massive dungeon actually made sense. i.e. how do things stay alive down there? How does the ecosystem work? What creature is on the bottom of the food chain, and what does it eat? What resources exist within the dungeon, and how do other resources get brought in?

If it is just hack and slash, you suspend your disbelief and ignore such things.

Jonagel
2017-11-21, 02:11 PM
For all the naysayers: you don't have enough imagination! ;)

I highly recommend this journal to give you an idea of what a Mega Dungeon could be...one of the best I have read! It goes for weeks/months and develops quite the story/characters. Some might say this goes beyond a Mega Dungeon.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325177-Cattle-Driving-Necromancers-Bizarre-Campaign-Journal&highlight=cattle

Tanarii
2017-11-21, 02:12 PM
Role playing is making decisions for your fictional character in the fictional environment.

Dungeon crawling involves lots of decisions. Three are plenty of roleplaying opportunities.

Aliquid
2017-11-21, 03:00 PM
Role playing is making decisions for your fictional character in the fictional environment.

Dungeon crawling involves lots of decisions. Three are plenty of roleplaying opportunities.If your definition of role playing is "everything that takes place in a RPG is role playing" then yes... clearly there will be plenty of opportunities, by definition. And technically you would be correct.

There are different styles of play, and defining those "styles" is difficult, as nobody will agree on what they are. There is the old "role-play vs roll-play", which admittedly is a crude breakdown that isn't technically correct, but it makes a point. There is the GNS theory which is more nuanced, but implies things are mutually exclusive when they really aren't. There are terms like power-gamer, munchkin, min-maxer, thespian etc. which all have a derogatory feel to them... the list goes on. The biggest problem though is that many gamers seem to have the attitude that their "style" is the only "correct" way of playing a RPG.

Creating an entertaining "Massive Dungeon Crawl" game will be a different task depending on which "style" of play you and the players are going for.

War_lord
2017-11-21, 03:07 PM
Role playing is making decisions for your fictional character in the fictional environment.

Dungeon crawling involves lots of decisions. Three are plenty of roleplaying opportunities.

Contrary to your special definitions. "Is the chest or the door the mimic" is not a roleplaying decision.

Tinkerer
2017-11-21, 03:16 PM
One thing that I've definitely picked up on over the years is that the type of dungeon which strains credulity the most tends to be the "average dungeon" where you have a variety of forces crammed into a smallish space. I've pretty much abandoned them entirely in favour of either quick small dungeons where there is a small force or maybe one or two threats inside or expansive mega-dungeons which take at least two sessions to go through and have enough space that there can be a variety of creatures inside without them stepping on each other's toes.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-21, 03:39 PM
Role playing is making decisions for your fictional character in the fictional environment.

Dungeon crawling involves lots of decisions. Three are plenty of roleplaying opportunities.

Yes and no.

Dungeon crawling can involve a lot of roleplaying, working out the reasons why our character chooses the decisions they do, building up the increasing madness as the dungeon takes it's toll, and so on. But I've basically never seen it. It's why I abandoned dungeons in my games, it gives players a wider variety of situations to roleplay in.


Contrary to your special definitions. "Is the chest or the door the mimic" is not a roleplaying decision.

True, it's the thirty minutes of existential dread over how many monsters there are that disguise themselves as the room. Then the next session we discovered the walls were moving.

War_lord
2017-11-21, 03:59 PM
True, it's the thirty minutes of existential dread over how many monsters there are that disguise themselves as the room. Then the next session we discovered the walls were moving.

And that session of jokingly panicking over old school dungeon tropes did have the accidental side effect of really getting across to me how playing those tropes straight drags the game down to a crawl.

Anonymouswizard
2017-11-21, 04:04 PM
And that session of jokingly panicking over old school dungeon tropes did have the accidental side effect of really getting across to me how playing those tropes straight drags the game down to a crawl.

Yeah, made me have more respect for the ten foot pole though, even if two of us still fell into the pit trap.

kyoryu
2017-11-21, 05:16 PM
Contrary to your special definitions. "Is the chest or the door the mimic" is not a roleplaying decision.

No, but I'd argue that "You're pretty sure that either the chest or the door is a mimic, but you're unsure which one it is. What do you do?" is.

Do you attack? Retreat? Try to probe? Send a hireling? Just say "screw it" and open one of them up? These are all character-dependent decisions.

FreddyNoNose
2017-11-21, 05:20 PM
I like for there to be some kind of megadungeon available to go explore in the sandbox, as one option among many.

I very much however dislike the "you're sealed in the dungeon, now you have to spend the next 20 sessions finding a way out..." scenario. Unless that is the upfront campaign buy in - eg: we're doing Escape from Undermountian or whatever. Then ok I know where it's all going and will make an appropriate PC.

Can I assume you like the version of Let's Make a Deal, where you know what is behind the curtains before you make a choice............................

Tanarii
2017-11-21, 05:50 PM
If your definition of role playing is "everything that takes place in a RPG is role playing" then yes... clearly there will be plenty of opportunities, by definition. And technically you would be correct.Not everything. Just the things that require making decisions for the question "what do you do", and what you do making a difference in the situation.


There are different styles of play, and defining those "styles" is difficult, as nobody will agree on what they are. There is the old "role-play vs roll-play", which admittedly is a crude breakdown that isn't technically correct, but it makes a point. There is the GNS theory which is more nuanced, but implies things are mutually exclusive when they really aren't. There are terms like power-gamer, munchkin, min-maxer, thespian etc. which all have a derogatory feel to them... the list goes on. The biggest problem though is that many gamers seem to have the attitude that their "style" is the only "correct" way of playing a RPG.

Creating an entertaining "Massive Dungeon Crawl" game will be a different task depending on which "style" of play you and the players are going for.Absolutely. Point was that "roll play vs role play" is a BS, because it is attempting to define a subset of roleplaying as wrong, and another subset as "true" roleplaying.


Contrary to your special definitions. "Is the chest or the door the mimic" is not a roleplaying decision.


No, but I'd argue that "You're pretty sure that either the chest or the door is a mimic, but you're unsure which one it is. What do you do?" is.

Do you attack? Retreat? Try to probe? Send a hireling? Just say "screw it" and open one of them up? These are all character-dependent decisions.
Yup. Roleplaying isn't just developing your character, although that's fun and I enjoy it. It isn't just funny voices and talk-time, although both of those can be fun, and I enjoy them. It's often to my own surprise in the case of other players doing funny voices, but they do also have their own special benefit of making you think of the player in front of you as something different from who they actually are.

But what's at the core of all Roleplaying is making decisions for what your character does, and having meaningful things happen as a result, both good and bad. And dungeon crawls give lots of opportunity for that. Often a quite intense amount of them.

Tinkerer
2017-11-21, 05:52 PM
Can I assume you like the version of Let's Make a Deal, where you know what is behind the curtains before you make a choice............................

Kinda a poor example there. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't want to know what's behind the curtain first in that particular scenario unless you are obscenely rich. It would be boring for spectators to watch but in terms of which situation I'd rather be in it's quite an easy choice.

Aliquid
2017-11-21, 07:07 PM
Not everything. Just the things that require making decisions for the question "what do you do", and what you do making a difference in the situation.But by that definition, I'm role-playing when I play Monopoly. You are playing the role of a landlord and make decisions on what sort of business transactions you should make. Or even more-so, the game Clue.

Tanarii
2017-11-22, 02:52 PM
But by that definition, I'm role-playing when I play Monopoly. You are playing the role of a landlord and make decisions on what sort of business transactions you should make. Or even more-so, the game Clue.
No. In neither game are you playing the role of a character in a imaginary environment.

Clue could pretty easily become an RPG though.

RPG Factory
2017-11-22, 03:35 PM
I'm just wondering how people feel about Dungeon Crawl campaigns. By that, I mean the kind where the whole campaign is about navigating through a massive dungeon.

In my opinion, one of the benefits of Dungeon Crawl campaigns is that player characters begin straight into the adventure. Though one of downsides to that is that it would kind of be like railroading. Also, aside from "you all wake up in a room with no memory of who you are, or how you got there", I can't think of many other reasons how the party got into the dungeon and why.

So, what do you think?

...How about you've been given a quest to investigate a Dungeon in the mountains? There's an entrance, no one knows how deep it goes because everyone that has investigated it so far... has not returned!

I actually like large Dungeon crawls... personally :)

Velaryon
2017-11-22, 03:41 PM
I like dungeon crawls, but not for the whole campaign. Dungeon crawls are board games in an RPG format. Combat, exploring, figuring out traps and puzzles are fun, but ultimately I want to play a character not a meeple. I want the game world to notice and care I was there.

This sums up my feelings pretty well. If there are meaningful opportunities for character interaction, then it could interest me. Otherwise, I would prefer my dungeon crawls to be short (no longer than a session or so), and interspersed between other activities.

Otherwise, why not just play HeroQuest or Descent instead?