Conquest: better tanking paladin?

[Foxhound438]

No, not better than ancients, at least not all the time.

But hear me out. Frightened is a fairly powerful effect in a lot of situations, since enemies that are afraid of you can't move closer to you. Basically, if you're in the middle of your party, and you use that super awesome channel, you get to make sure that only a few enemies at a time get to get close enough to use melee attacks. Of course, this isn't always relevant, but in combats against 1d6+1 cultists or 3 orcs with greataxes, denying enemies melee attacks is already pretty bonkers. Throw on top of that the fact that anything that does have ranged attacks to back that up has disadvantage, and you're almost eliminating anything that fails its save against your channel.

"Oh, but Foxhound, you only get to channel once per short rest! standard adventuring day has 2 fights per", I hear you say before you thought about saying it, BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!!!

Why not pick dragonborn as your race and pick up dragon fear at 4th? even in AL games, that's totally legal, since you're PHB+1 still. Start out with stats like: 17/8/14/8/10/16, and you don't even have the usual drawback of having to be stuck with a +3 on all primary stats until level 8, since dragon fear gets that STR to 18! Now you have 2 uses per short rest of AOE frighten effect, and one doesn't even allow repeat saves until they take damage! So what if you lose the effect on one thing because it takes six hits and makes the save one of those times? Well, it's taken six hits by then, and still it's only one enemy that was already in melee that gets out of the fear effect. But do you want to know the best part?

Neither of those take concentration.

That's right, you can have approximately half of everything soiling their pants in your presence, and still concentrate on an aura of healing or a holy weapon. (what's everyone think of holy weapon, by the way? I think it's pretty cool, maybe a bit overcosted if you're just using it for per-hit damage though)

So what's your thoughts? obviously both effects only have a 30 ft range, and are thus sandbags for certain encounters, but I think it can hold its own and then some in a standard dungeon crawl or tavern brawl. What else goes with this build? do you go straight for the reach weapons to cheese out encounters by denying things attacks and staying out of reach the whole time? what about dueling whip and shield? That one sounds pretty fun, and actually fits really well with the conquest flavor:

"BOW TO ME NEW SLAVE"
*enemy crying, defenseless, getting the crap whipped out of them* "Wahhh, okay, I give up"
"Excellent... and now, you will become MY NEW TORTURE DOLL" *continues*

[lunaticfringe]

Dragon Fear Conquestadin was my 3rd thought after...

Ah man Storm Herald is Sad & Awesome Bards!

I was thinking about just murdering terrified victims monsters with a giant blunt instrument (maul + GWM) but to each their own I suppose.

[DarkKnightJin]

My thought was Dragonborn Paladin of Conquest, splash in 2 or 3 levels of Warlock for AB and either Devil's Sight or Aspect of the Moon.
Why Aspect? Because an Overlord that doesn't need to sleep is one you can't kill in his sleep, of course!

[Foxhound438]

Why Aspect? Because an Overlord that doesn't need to sleep is one you can't kill in his sleep, of course!

That seems pretty cool and thematic, actually

nb4 hexblade suggestion pops up

[alchahest]

also wrathful smite is delicious on a conquest paladin - if they fail the wis save, they have to make wisdom checks (no proficiency) at disadvantage to shake it afterwards

[DarkKnightJin]

That seems pretty cool and thematic, actually

nb4 hexblade suggestion pops up

I also considered Eldritch Spear, if only for the flavor of chucking a spectral spear across a 300ft expanse into a poor sucker's chest. But since that's not rrally all too necessary, I figured grabbing Aspect to guard all night and be literally unable to be put to sleep..
Yeah, I can see that being kinda terrifying to behold.

"DUDE! Have you heard about their general? They say he never sleeps!"
"What, for real? No way, he can't *never* sleep."

Edit: I've also thought about Hexblade, but I'm not entirely sure that's needed. You'd likely be going Str 15 for plate armor anyway. The only thing I can think of would be pumping you Cha instead and just abusing spells. Could be thematic, but not sure if it wouldn't feel a bit cheesy to me.
If you wanna do it that way, go ahead, though.

[Rogerdodger557]

I also considered Eldritch Spear, if only for the flavor of chucking a spectral spear across a 300ft expanse into a poor sucker's chest. But since that's not rrally all too necessary, I figured grabbing Aspect to guard all night and be literally unable to be put to sleep..
Yeah, I can see that being kinda terrifying to behold.

"DUDE! Have you heard about their general? They say he never sleeps!"
"What, for real? No way, he can't *never* sleep."

Edit: I've also thought about Hexblade, but I'm not entirely sure that's needed. You'd likely be going Str 15 for plate armor anyway. The only thing I can think of would be pumping you Cha instead and just abusing spells. Could be thematic, but not sure if it wouldn't feel a bit cheesy to me.
If you wanna do it that way, go ahead, though.

I would do hexblade for Wrathful Smite, like alchahest mentioned. Getting a smite spell on short rests is a great thing to have.

[lunaticfringe]

I would do hexblade for Wrathful Smite, like alchahest mentioned. Getting a smite spell on short rests is a great thing to have.

You don't automatically get wrathful smite and it's already a Paladin spell. You could accomplish Short Rest Wrathful Smites with any Lock Dip. Since i would want heavy armor anyway I would dip Fiend or Fey (Fear Cube).

[Rogerdodger557]

You don't automatically get wrathful smite and it's already a Paladin spell. You could accomplish Short Rest Wrathful Smites with any Lock Dip. Since i would want heavy armor anyway I would dip Fiend or Fey (Fear Cube).

But since you can take it as a warlock, you could prepare a different spell off the pally spell list

[alchahest]

You don't automatically get wrathful smite and it's already a Paladin spell. You could accomplish Short Rest Wrathful Smites with any Lock Dip. Since i would want heavy armor anyway I would dip Fiend or Fey (Fear Cube).

The thing is that conquest paladins get the ability to freeze frightened enemies in place - that's the kicker, not just having wrathful smite.

[lunaticfringe]

The thing is that conquest paladins get the ability to freeze frightened enemies in place - that's the kicker, not just having wrathful smite.

Um yeah. But a Paladin is investing in STR for

1. Multiclassing in this scenario
2. Heavy Armor.

In for a penny in for a pound. It's not bad if you want go Sword & Board or Feat Crazy. Two handers lose 30ft Aura to get Cha Heavy Weapons. Meh.

[Foxhound438]

I feel like the hexblade -could- be really good

on a different build. This one's going to have high STR anyways, since there's no way you can point buy 17 charisma at level one on a dragonborn, while you can PB 17 strength and have 18 at level 4 with Dragon Fear. The hexblade's curse is also more or less unnecessary, the free damage is nice but that's only ever going to be for one target per short rest, and isn't as good for a CC paladin as the THP from fiend or the fear cube from fey. The crit range is probably fine, but it's still the worst champion feature on only one target.

Personally I wouldn't dip warlock at all though, on any paladin. There's no place in paladin progression that I feel two more levels in pally is a loss vs. multiclassing. Level 3 you have your archetype, and in two more you get extra attack, and in two more you get the damage aura, and in two more you get fear, and in two more you get improved divine smite, and in two more you get banishment, and in two more you get scornful rebuke, and in two more you get holy weapon, and at that point you're so close to capstone that MC'ing then would just be poor form. But that's just my take on it.

[lunaticfringe]

I agree I w/ Fox I wouldn't MC a Dragon Fear Conquest Pally. The whole point is your enemies are Frightened, you really want that 30ft Aura that fits your Roar perfectly. And then you may as well grab the Capstone.

Wrathful is a scalpel and handy to be sure, Dragon Fear is about chucking grenades. But to each their own, you have to try and suck in 5e. Hex dips aren't terrible.

[alchahest]

Um yeah. But a Paladin is investing in STR for

1. Multiclassing in this scenario
2. Heavy Armor.

In for a penny in for a pound. It's not bad if you want go Sword & Board or Feat Crazy. Two handers lose 30ft Aura to get Cha Heavy Weapons. Meh.

this is a thread about conquest paladins, I don't think it's weird that I'm talking about conquest paladins, haha

[lunaticfringe]

this is a thread about conquest paladins, I don't think it's weird that I'm talking about conquest paladins, haha

It isn't but I thought it was specifically about DB Dragon Fear Pallies. I didn't say it was a bad concept, just one I wouldn't use. Go nuts, it's your toon.

I would go GWM because if all goes well mobs is afeared of you, so why not beat them to death with a huge chunk o steel? Plus Bonus Attack on Kill & Crit and your Channel +10. I realize many wouldn't choose that route on a tank though & that's fine.

[Foxhound438]

It isn't but I thought it was specifically about DB Dragon Fear Pallies. I didn't say it was a bad concept, just one I wouldn't use. Go nuts, it's your toon.

I would go GWM because if all goes well mobs is afeared of you, so why not beat them to death with a huge chunk o steel? Plus Bonus Attack on Kill & Crit and your Channel +10. I realize many wouldn't choose that route on a tank though & that's fine.

So I had this whole thing typed up on why I don't like GWM on paladins, but then I remembered that OoC gets hold person, which basically guarantees you get to have the extra swing, so long as the thing you hold fails the first two saves. This might even actually be one of those cases where dipping out of pally is worth it, since 2 in fighter gets you the ability to action surge if something fails the initial save, meaning no double jeopardy for the first round of swings. Unfortunately you do lose out on hold monster that vengeance gets, but this should be serviceable anyways.

[Foxhound438]

Another note about conquest paladin: Xanathar's note at the top of p. 38 is pretty great.

[DarkKnightJin]

Another note about conquest paladin: Xanathar's note at the top of p. 38 is pretty great.

Do share, please.
I don't have cat gifs to bribe you with, so all I got is asking nicely.

[lunaticfringe]

So I had this whole thing typed up on why I don't like GWM on paladins, but then I remembered that OoC gets hold person, which basically guarantees you get to have the extra swing, so long as the thing you hold fails the first two saves. This might even actually be one of those cases where dipping out of pally is worth it, since 2 in fighter gets you the ability to action surge if something fails the initial save, meaning no double jeopardy for the first round of swings. Unfortunately you do lose out on hold monster that vengeance gets, but this should be serviceable anyways.

Hmm that's not bad. You can defense & GWF. If you start Fighter 1 and delay Extra Attack & Dragon Fear a level you can pick up Con Saves without a feat. Definitely worth considering.

[Foxhound438]

Do share, please.
I don't have cat gifs to bribe you with, so all I got is asking nicely.

"Conquest sounds cool.
Do you have to leave your house for that?
Because I've got a fish named Sylgar, and I can't
be away for too long or he gets sad."