TWF - Did someone try this house rule already?

[Eric Diaz]

So, I think one could say that TWF is not a great choice for fighters.

I have seem some proposed fixes, but not one that I think is more or less obvious: when you attack with two weapons at once, you roll both dice and pick the best - provided you do not use your bonus weapon to attack with your side weapon.

At a first glance it seems that would still be much worse than using a greatsword, but could be a simple fix for higher level fighters or people that need their bonus action for something else.

Of course, a flat 2 bonus to your attack when attacking with two weapons might work even better, but some people might find it boring because it would be exactly like Dueling (but then again why shouldn't you duel with a main gauche?).

There are probably some other solutions out there, too. Maybe add the two weapons damage together, provided you get the feat and and the damage of the second weapon is reduced to a d4 (2d8 damage for dual wielding scimitars might be too much... but 2d6 or 1d8+1d4 would be okay I guess, GWM is probably still a better choice).

Anyway, I figure maybe somebody did the math on that already.

[bid]

Look, it's not that bad.
- TWF+twf 3*1d6+5 + 1d6+5 ~ 34
- maul+def=3*2d6+5 ~ 36
- maul+gwf=3*2d6+4/3+5 ~ 40
Worse AC 5% behind, same AC 15% behind.

Add a feat:
- DW+twf=3*1d8+5 + 1d8+5 ~ 38
- PAM+def=3*1d10+5 + 1d4+5 ~ 39
- PAM+gwf=3*1d10+4/5+5 + 1d4+1/2+5 ~ 41.9
Same AC, similar damage, better AC 10% behind.


Anyway, with DW you'd rather have a whip offhand than maximize your damage dice. You are trading another 10% less damage for better opportunities.

[stoutstien]

Honestly its the BA that blows with twf, if your house ruling just move it to the attack action. That alone makes it a solid option.

[MeeposFire]

Essentially giving die rerolls is not going to make it worth it. Sadly it is weaker than the default.

My version does involve a number of changes.

1. Object interactions are equal to the number of attacks you make with an attack action and you can draw 2 weapons with one interaction so long as you draw both at once (same with stowing).

2. TWF no longer requires a bonus action. IF you wield 2 weapons you can make that offhand attack every time you spend an action to make a weapon attack on your turn(most often the attack action itself).

3. If you get extra attack (or similar) you get your attribute bonus to your offhand attack.

4. TWF style allows you to use one handed weapons.

5. TWF feat gives +1 AC, make an off hand attack as a bonus action when you use the attack action, and you can make an offhand attack when you make an opportunity attack.


Not perfect but it does improve the high end a bit and evens out the boost (normally TWF is really good until level 5 but this version has less of a bump but keeps it closer later on).

[Eric Diaz]

Look, it's not that bad.
- TWF+twf 3*1d6+5 + 1d6+5 ~ 34
- maul+def=3*2d6+5 ~ 36
- maul+gwf=3*2d6+4/3+5 ~ 40
Worse AC 5% behind, same AC 15% behind.

Add a feat:
- DW+twf=3*1d8+5 + 1d8+5 ~ 38
- PAM+def=3*1d10+5 + 1d4+5 ~ 39
- PAM+gwf=3*1d10+4/5+5 + 1d4+1/2+5 ~ 41.9
Same AC, similar damage, better AC 10% behind.


Anyway, with DW you'd rather have a whip offhand than maximize your damage dice. You are trading another 10% less damage for better opportunities.

Thanks for showing me the numbers, that is what I was looking for. Yeah, it doesn't look so bad at all. I think the main differences are: losing the bonus action and GWM - which makes dual-wielding a lot worse in comparison.

What can you do with a whip? I never seen one in my games.


Honestly its the BA that blows with twf, if your house ruling just move it to the attack action. That alone makes it a solid option.

Yeah, that is the idea.

Give TWF a bit more flexibility and reliability, even with the damage still a bit lower.


Essentially giving die rerolls is not going to make it worth it. Sadly it is weaker than the default.

My version does involve a number of changes.

1. Object interactions are equal to the number of attacks you make with an attack action and you can draw 2 weapons with one interaction so long as you draw both at once (same with stowing).

2. TWF no longer requires a bonus action. IF you wield 2 weapons you can make that offhand attack every time you spend an action to make a weapon attack on your turn(most often the attack action itself).

3. If you get extra attack (or similar) you get your attribute bonus to your offhand attack.

4. TWF style allows you to use one handed weapons.

5. TWF feat gives +1 AC, make an off hand attack as a bonus action when you use the attack action, and you can make an offhand attack when you make an opportunity attack.


Not perfect but it does improve the high end a bit and evens out the boost (normally TWF is really good until level 5 but this version has less of a bump but keeps it closer later on).

I like this, although it might be a bit too complicated for my tastes. I'm always looking to make the changes as small as possible.

[bid]

Thanks for showing me the numbers, that is what I was looking for. Yeah, it doesn't look so bad at all. I think the main differences are: losing the bonus action and GWM - which makes dual-wielding a lot worse in comparison.

What can you do with a whip? I never seen one in my games.
Reach and finesse.
Hitting the second row or getting OA from them. Also, rogue can SA from afar.


Also, with the usual miss rate of .35, advantage reduces it to .35*.35 ~ .12. That's .88/.65 ~ +35% damage, about the same as going from 3 to 4 attacks.
- with adv: 1d8+5 * .88 ~ 8.36
- no adv: 2d6+4/3+5 * .65 ~ 8.66

So, around level 11 against average targets, it's about the same. It becomes incredibly useful against high AC targets, tough. Erm... .65 is 8+ hit, prof +4, Str +5, ... AC17 is average, so you're hoping for AC20+ to make your "advantage-like" feature awesome.