new sorc spells

[Chugger]

Curious about what can/can't be twinned.

Chaos Bolt targets only one target but can - on the right roll - jump to another target (and another). Does this make it not twinnable?

Dragon's Breath is a touch spell, So I presume I can cast it on others or myself. But the effect it makes is aoe, a cone. So is it not twinnable? What if I quicken it? It is cast as a bonus action - can I cast one on my action and one on my b.a.?

[lunaticfringe]

Yes you can Twin both. Rider effects like Chaos Bolts jump don't change that.

Dragon's Breath is a buff. You are buffing 2 people (if twinned), the buff gives them a Special action. You cannot RAW cast Bonus Action Spells as an action. Your DM may allow its often handwaived. Even if you can it's a concentration so unless twinned you wasted a slot.

[DivisibleByZero]

Technically you cannot twin chaos bolt. The jump even being possible makes the spell not able to be twinned.
Personally I'd rule that you can twin it, but that it cannot jump if you do.

[lunaticfringe]

Sigh...somebody go tweet JC.

[DivisibleByZero]

Sigh...somebody go tweet JC.

No need.
This has been asked a million times before by a million people and has been answered a million times.
If the spell has the ability to affect/target/damage more than creature, even if you choose not to, then it cannot be twinned.
That's the Official Rule.

[lunaticfringe]

No need.
This has been asked a million times before by a million people and has been answered a million times.
If the spell has the ability to affect/target/damage more than creature, even if you choose not to, then it cannot be twinned.
That's the Official Rule.

That's silly. I have no idea what it is on a d8 but iirc hitting doubles on a d6 is around 2%. Let the awesome happen if it ever comes up I say.

Also that isn't what's printed.

[UrielAwakened]

Yeah, screw JC and screw his rulings on this.

Let people twin Chaos Bolt. Let them twin Icicle Knife. It doesn't break the game.

[DivisibleByZero]

That's silly. I have no idea what it is on a d8 but iirc hitting doubles on a d6 is around 2%. Let the awesome happen if it ever comes up I say.

Also that isn't what's printed.

Can it potentially jump to another target?
It is not a single target spell.
You can rule it however you want to, and let your players twin it if you want to. It's hardly game breaking or anything. But by the rules it can't be twinned.

[Eunostus]

That's silly. I have no idea what it is on a d8 but iirc hitting doubles on a d6 is around 2%. Let the awesome happen if it ever comes up I say.

Also that isn't what's printed.
The odds to hit doubles on a d8 is 1/8 and on a d6 it's 1/6. So you're only off by a factor of more than 8. ;)

[Chugger]

Right, Dragon's Breath gives you a buff ... that lets you hit multiple creatures maybe. But we all know you can Twin Haste, and that lets people hit multiple creatures, too, if you think about it. Thank you for the thoughts on this - am realizing I'd probably never want to quicken it - or well, it would be rare for that to make sense. If I'm allowed to Twin it, that would be silly good.

But I think the main discussion point here is on what I'm guessin is a JC ruling in SA - and that since Chaos Bolt has a 1/8th chance to leap to another target - and then a 1/8'th chance after that to do so again - and on for a bit it circumstances allow and amazing dice rolls happen - then you can't Twin it. Am also getting that it's a DM ruling or call, so given that I never know who my DM will be, I may have to be prepared for it to be untwinable. But maybe some will allow it.

[Byke]

JC ruling on GFB would apply to Chaosbolt. That said our gaming table ignores it.

[lunaticfringe]

The odds to hit doubles on a d8 is 1/8 and on a d6 it's 1/6. So you're only off by a factor of more than 8. ;)

Right 1/36 for a specific pair, 6 potential pairs=6/36=1/6. 8/64=1/8. Curse you for making me actually think about Math!

[samcifer]

That's silly. I have no idea what it is on a d8 but iirc hitting doubles on a d6 is around 2%. Let the awesome happen if it ever comes up I say.

Also that isn't what's printed.

But Ice Knife can be twinned as it hits one target initially. The AoE follow up doesn't disqualify it from being twinned. Doesn't the same apply to CB since the initial hit only targets 1 creature, then the secondary effect kicks in after the hit?

[lunaticfringe]

But Ice Knife can be twinned as it hits one target initially. The AoE follow up doesn't disqualify it from being twinned. Doesn't the same apply to CB since the initial hit only targets 1 creature, then the secondary effect kicks in after the hit?

Apparently not according to JC. Which is super dumb imho. His ruling is any spell that can potentially affect multiple targets can't be twinned. Which to me isn't RAW it's RAI, but whatever I can ignore that cause I'm a DM.

Stuff like that is why ignore SA most of the time.

[Jerrykhor]

I think its better if you just ignore this spell, because it is garbage anyway. It basically can be summed up as '99% of the time, it deals 2d8+1d6 damage.' Its nearly on the level of Witchbolt.

[Eragon123]

'99% of the time'

or 87.5% but who's counting.

Also may be a bit higher with empower spell BUT that is too much math this late at night.

[Hyde]

It's a shame that words don't actually mean things, such that we could have a "target" line on spells.

For my part, I'm twinning it.

[Foff]

for the case of Dragon's Breath it IS twinnable, it SHOULD be twinned every time if possible and you SHOULD exploit its full duration as much as possible

it's a 2nd lvl slot which can go a very long way, get yourself a familiar someway or another (like a cat) hold your cat in your arms like you would hold a rifle, cast dragons breath on yourself and your cat with your BA, and start spewing around fire or acid every round with your flamethrower cat

a flamethrower owl with flyby is arguably better but you're not squeezing fire out of your cat by doing that...

[Aett_Thorn]

And this is exactly why the SA rulings on Twin Spell are utterly ridiculous, and why we need a "Target" line for each spell. You can't twin Chaos Bolt, because it has a random chance that it might affect another target. But you CAN twin Dragon's Breath even though the end effect will likely hit more than one target.

Since the errata for things like Scorching Ray, every spell that I've seen come up as questionable for twinning I've never seen as being at all unreasonable to let it be twinned. And I've never seen one of these spells where it has led to the Sorc becoming overpowered if they can twin it.

Sure, we can ignore these SA rulings and homerule it, but if 90% of players/DMs have to houserule it, maybe the base RAW/RAI isn't all that good.

[samcifer]

for the case of Dragon's Breath it IS twinnable, it SHOULD be twinned every time if possible and you SHOULD exploit its full duration as much as possible

it's a 2nd lvl slot which can go a very long way, get yourself a familiar someway or another (like a cat) hold your cat in your arms like you would hold a rifle, cast dragons breath on yourself and your cat with your BA, and start spewing around fire or acid every round with your flamethrower cat

a flamethrower owl with flyby is arguably better but you're not squeezing fire out of your cat by doing that...

You make it sound like Mr. Toots, the unicorn weapon from Red Faction: Armageddon

[Zalabim]

I think its better if you just ignore this spell, because it is garbage anyway. It basically can be summed up as '99% of the time, it deals 2d8+1d6 damage.' Its nearly on the level of Witchbolt.
But then, Chromatic Orb exists and this doesn't have a 50GP material component that prevents it from being usable at level 1.

And about empower, whether you reroll one d8 or both, it should be a 12.5% chance to get a pair on the reroll. Assuming you don't reroll if you already have a pair, it averages out to ~23% chance to bounce when you do empower it.

It's a shame that words don't actually mean things, such that we could have a "target" line on spells.

For my part, I'm twinning it.

I don't think spells have consistent enough target information to include that line on every spell. It would waste a lot of lines with "Target: see text"

For my part, I'm also ok with twinning chaos bolt. Since it would roll one damage roll for both targets, it wouldn't make the spell really more likely to bounce. Beyond the factor of having to hit at least one target to bounce at all, of course. I could see them both being "Twin: Not OK," technically, but I'd allow it as being balanced.

[Foff]

twinning chaos bolt isn't really worth it anyway in my book tbh, the damage is not high enough to justify spending sorcery points on it, unless you really have nothing else left, in which case you probably should have twinned something else already

[Chugger]

for the case of Dragon's Breath it IS twinnable, it SHOULD be twinned every time if possible and you SHOULD exploit its full duration as much as possible

it's a 2nd lvl slot which can go a very long way, get yourself a familiar someway or another (like a cat) hold your cat in your arms like you would hold a rifle, cast dragons breath on yourself and your cat with your BA, and start spewing around fire or acid every round with your flamethrower cat

a flamethrower owl with flyby is arguably better but you're not squeezing fire out of your cat by doing that...

This is very funny - came this close to needing to wipe coffee off my screen! :smallbiggrin: Love it!

[Chugger]

For an optimizer, sure, Chaos Bolt is not quite as strong as other spells I guess. But for a role player it's pure gold. It's like playing a DnD slot machine each time you cast it! What damage will you get? Will it leap? Will it leap again? Dare we imagine it could even leap one more time ... and even one more?

2d8 + 1d6 is not bad, but that's not its av. damage, which would be 2d8+1d6 + 1/8(2d8 + 1d6) (and if you wanna be really picky plus 1/8 times that, and then we stop cuz how often will the next one happen - not often enough to bother with). So not counting the possibility of a second bolt it's 12.5, counting the second bolt it's roughly 14! So its true average dam is slightly higher than a 3d8 spell and the same (roughly) as a 4d6 spell. But use it for LoLs and fun - if you're optimizing of course (be boring) go for the spell w/ the highest crunch.

[alchahest]

DBZ is right - any spell which CAN hit more than one target is inelligible for twinning.

[UrielAwakened]

A much more logical and intuitive interpretation would be, "If the initial target is one creature."

[Vaz]

Curious about what can/can't be twinned.

Chaos Bolt targets only one target but can - on the right roll - jump to another target (and another). Does this make it not twinnable?
Any spell that can be twinned actually disqualifies itself by virtue of being twinnable.

Welcome to 5e.

[Ritorix]

How about a twinned, empowered Life Transference? Divine Soul only, but I don't see why not.

[alchahest]

How about a twinned, empowered Life Transference? Divine Soul only, but I don't see why not.

mainly because you can't use two metamagics on the same spell.

[samcifer]

mainly because you can't use two metamagics on the same spell.

Empowered can be used with other mms. It's the only one that can do this, so it might very well be legal

[Beechgnome]

For an optimizer, sure, Chaos Bolt is not quite as strong as other spells I guess. But for a role player it's pure gold. It's like playing a DnD slot machine each time you cast it! What damage will you get? Will it leap? Will it leap again? Dare we imagine it could even leap one more time ... and even one more?

2d8 + 1d6 is not bad, but that's not its av. damage, which would be 2d8+1d6 + 1/8(2d8 + 1d6) (and if you wanna be really picky plus 1/8 times that, and then we stop cuz how often will the next one happen - not often enough to bother with). So not counting the possibility of a second bolt it's 12.5, counting the second bolt it's roughly 14! So its true average dam is slightly higher than a 3d8 spell and the same (roughly) as a 4d6 spell. But use it for LoLs and fun - if you're optimizing of course (be boring) go for the spell w/ the highest crunch.

This is a super-important and overlooked part of chaos bolt. It is fun to roll dice.

It is also fun to make choices, too. Should I hit the enemy with psychic, or fire? You'll always get to choose... Except when you roll double d8s, in which case - bam, make another attack!
But out of your 64 possibilities, 28 times you'll Likely be choosing to hit them with force or psychic.

It fails against creatures with multiple immunities, because there is a chance your attack could do nothing, but hey, that's chaos.

And yes, it should be twinnable.

Now I want to play a lucky halfling chaos divine soul throwing twinned empowered chaos bolts and laughing wildly.

[Foff]

For an optimizer, sure, Chaos Bolt is not quite as strong as other spells I guess. But for a role player it's pure gold. It's like playing a DnD slot machine each time you cast it! What damage will you get? Will it leap? Will it leap again? Dare we imagine it could even leap one more time ... and even one more?

2d8 + 1d6 is not bad, but that's not its av. damage, which would be 2d8+1d6 + 1/8(2d8 + 1d6) (and if you wanna be really picky plus 1/8 times that, and then we stop cuz how often will the next one happen - not often enough to bother with). So not counting the possibility of a second bolt it's 12.5, counting the second bolt it's roughly 14! So its true average dam is slightly higher than a 3d8 spell and the same (roughly) as a 4d6 spell. But use it for LoLs and fun - if you're optimizing of course (be boring) go for the spell w/ the highest crunch.

oh don't get me wrong, I know chaos bolt is fun, I love it really, hell i'd play my coffelock with wild magic if divine soul wasn't so blatantly overpowered just for the lolz
I also think it should be twinnable, although I see no real point in doing it, IF either bolt bounces it cannot jump on the same targets anyway

that said, hitting the jackpot and electrocuting a whole bunch of enemies with a twinned chaos bolt which has both bolts jumping a bunch of times is a reward i'd give any sorcerer player if I was DMing

[Danielqueue1]

f hold your cat in your arms like you would hold a rifle, cast dragons breath on yourself and your cat with your BA, and start spewing around fire or acid every round with your flamethrower cat

https://i.imgur.com/ujYI9SF.gif


there are a bunch of spells that twinning wouldn't break the game, but I believe the logic behind the restriction makes sense. you can't twin AE spells. you cant twin spells that have the capability of overlapping each other. and your spells must have a target so it cannot be used for doubling things like forcewall.

ice knife has an AE aspect no.
Green flame blade the fire could arc from tartget 2 to target 1 the affects overlap no it is not allowed.
Spiritual weapon; the spell does not target anything, it allows the thing you summoned to make attacks. it doesn't have a target it cannot be twinned any more than you could twin conjure animals
Chaos bolt is in the same category as Green flame blade.

Haste has a target other than self. the spell cannot target any more than one creature by itself. Twinning is fine.
Dragon's Breath is similar to haste in that aspect.

The Rules make sense. the Sage Advice interpretation of the rules makes sense. it is a ward against misuse. most spells would not break the game by twinning. but with how twinning works, you will not have a single target directly affected by the same spell more than once from the same casting unless that spell is already designed to do so.

Will it break the game if your DM doesn't follow