Swiftblades in combat?

[Shadowbite]

Greetings all. I haven't played 3.5 in a few years and I'm rejoining an old group. I'm making a Swiftblade as I've never played a GISH before. I've read the Swiftblade guide and the GISH guidebook but I'm still confused about how to play it.

I was told to make a level 10 character so the character will be lvl 6 wizard/4 swiftblade. The prestige class seems to be geared towards being mobile, doing damage and then getting out of the way. You get spring attack and you have haste increased movement, extra damage for moving, and feats for avoiding AoO. However it occurs to me that if I don't get my full attack I'm never utilizing the extra attack at full atk bonus that I get through haste which seems to really cut into the damage per round. I'm more than a little nervous about staying in melee due to the character's fragility.

Could anyone clear this up? Perhaps some examples of how to intelligently play this build in combat.
(link to the prestige class http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327 )

[Eldariel]

Greetings all. I haven't played 3.5 in a few years and I'm rejoining an old group. I'm making a Swiftblade as I've never played a GISH before. I've read the Swiftblade guide and the GISH guidebook but I'm still confused about how to play it.

I was told to make a level 10 character so the character will be lvl 6 wizard/4 swiftblade. The prestige class seems to be geared towards being mobile, doing damage and then getting out of the way. You get spring attack and you have haste increased movement, extra damage for moving, and feats for avoiding AoO. However it occurs to me that if I don't get my full attack I'm never utilizing the extra attack at full atk bonus that I get through haste which seems to really cut into the damage per round. I'm more than a little nervous about staying in melee due to the character's fragility.

Could anyone clear this up? Perhaps some examples of how to intelligently play this build in combat.
(link to the prestige class http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327 )

You're a Gish. This basically means you're a martially augmented spellcaster, which means you have all the options available to a spellcaster plus the option of buffing up your combat prowess and getting your hands dirty. In other words, depends on the situation. Your modus operandi should probably be minimal buffing (definitely Haste though), getting in there and hitting things in the face until they die, adding spells as needed. In cases where that's not sufficient, you can fall back on your control spells (Black Tentacles, Stinking Cloud, Web, Grease, Glitterdust, etc.) or debuffs (Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Grease, Wall of Smoke [Spell Compendium], etc.) to make the fight more manageable.

So take the usual allotment of melee buffs for both, offense and defense. Greater Magic Weapon, Mage Armor, Greater Mirror Image [PHBII], Heart of X [Complete Mage], False Life are good examples and of course, the superobvious Haste (not only is it one of the best buffs in the game, you also get extra class features for it). Polymorph is the single most powerful buff available to you right now so do consider adding it to your repertoire; big benefits from Polymorphing include various forms that can move and attack (e.g. Hydra-forms) and forms with massive physical stats. It can also give you flight, burrowing, etc. on command. Then you add Wraithstrike [Spell Compendium] to make all your spells touch attacks whenever necessary and perhaps something that buffs each of your attacks (perhaps Blades of Blood [Player's Handbook II]).


Then just fill out your slots with stuff that enables you to adapt to any given situation. Phantom Steed is probably giving you ~200' movement speeds, you probably want an actual Fly-spell prepared and the usual control/debuffing effects should round out your slots. Make sure you can attack every enemy save and also disable them with touch attacks to ensure you have something for every enemy type.

[Chronikoce]

Conjuration specialist wizard with the immediate action teleport spell like ability is super nice for survivability. Pop out of melee range, out of grapples, behind cover, etc.

You can full attack safely knowing you can always flee (a short distance) on your enemies turn if they target you.

[ATHATH]

Nah, full-attacking is still probably your best bet. Generally, your battle routine should go like this:

Round 1: Use your swift action to cast Haste and your standard action to cast another buff spell.
Round 2+: Use a swift action movement ability (like Travel Devotion, Abrupt Jaunt, or a swift action teleportation spell (possibly using the Quicken Spell feat to do so)) to move/teleport right next to an enemy, then whack them with a full-attack. If you're already adjacent to an enemy (that you want to attack) at the start of your turn for some reason (if they moved up to you, for example), use your swift action to cast a swift action spell (*cough* Abjurant Champion *cough*) instead of to move.

Once you get Perpetual Options, your battle routine should switch to this:
Round 1: Use your swift action to cast Haste, then use your two standard actions to cast two more spells. Use your move action to keep yourself away from enemies.
Round 2+: Use your two standard actions to cast two more spells and your swift action to cast a swift action spell (possibly using the Quicken Spell feat to do so). Use your move action to keep yourself away from enemies.

Or this:
Round 1: Use your swift action to cast Haste, then use one of your standard actions to move adjacent to an enemy, then use your remaining standard action and your move action to perform a full attack.
Round 2+: Use one of your standard actions or a swift action to move adjacent to an enemy if necessary. Use one of your standard actions and your move action to perform a full attack. If you didn't need to move (or used your swift action to move), use your other standard action to cast a spell. If you still have it, use your swift action to cast a swift action spell (*cough* Abjurant Champion *cough*).

As for defenses... Generally (if what I've heard is correct), the defenses granted by Mirror Image spells, Greater Luminous Armor spells, and your class features should be enough to defend yourself adequately.

[Darrin]

Conjugation specialist [snip]

Ah... if only truenaming were more functional...

[heavyfuel]

Use spring attack and some way to move without using your move action (Travel Devotion or Belt of Battle)




When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

"Attack action" is never really defined in 3.5, and it can mean many different things. It can be the standard action attack, but there's no reason it can't be a full attack action. Full attacks also break invisibility, for example.

This means, if you can - somehow - get a move action and perform a full-round action in the same turn (Belf of Battle is the most common; Travel Devotion if your DM allows it), you're allowed to move, full attack, move back. So you get a full attack, and they only get one.

With haste's and other source's speed bonuses, you can often hit enemies, and then run to outside their Charge distance, making them unable to attack you in melee at all.

[gkathellar]

It's worth noting that a Swiftblade is perfectly viable as a primary spellcaster, rather than a gish.

[heavyfuel]

It's worth noting that a Swiftblade is perfectly viable as a primary spellcaster, rather than a gish.

With the feat requirements and loss of caster levels, I'd say they fall pretty behind any other dedicated caster when it comes to actually casting (at least before you reach class level 9 and start to break the action economy, but that's at lv 15 in the least)

[gkathellar]

With the feat requirements and loss of caster levels, I'd say they fall pretty behind any other dedicated caster when it comes to actually casting (at least before you reach class level 9 and start to break the action economy, but that's at lv 15 in the least)

Better minds than I have said more on this topic than I care to. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=333.0)

[heavyfuel]

Better minds than I have said more on this topic than I care to. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=333.0)

I'm currently playing a Swiftblade. I've read this handbook in its entirety at least a few times. Still, I don't see how the handbook goes against my argument.

Losing caster levels, losing feats, losing spells per day and spells known are all terrible thing for casters. You're a competent caster, sure. And while they certainly are "viable" as you put them, they're far from being at their best if doing so.

Playing a Swiftblade as a primary caster is shooting yourself in the foot, as you'd always be better off staying in your base class, prestiging somewhere else, or playing him as a gish.

[Chronikoce]

Ah... if only truenaming were more functional...

Lol, my bad. I teach English and my keyboard has started predicting grammar words instead of fantasy and game words. Clearly my priorities are out of wack.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If at all possible, take a level in Spelldancer. It'll allow you to Persist spells willy-nilly, which is immensely useful.

Spelldancer requires two feats, in addition to Dodge and Mobility (Swiftblade prerequisites): Combat Casting and Endurance. Neither of these is very good, but okay. You also need 6 ranks Perform (dance) (boo!) and 4 ranks Tumble (yay!), and some Concentration, which you already had anyway. Finally, you need Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, else the whole exercise is without point.

As a human with flaws (and fractional base attack), you can enter as wizard 5, else it's wizard 6. Due to the many prerequisites, you won't get Extend Spell until ECL 5, which is quite terrible, but since you're starting at ECL 10 anyway, it's not an issue. You'd do something like this:


human wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 4
Feats: Apprentice (Entertainer)flaw, Combat Castingflaw, Expeditious/Midnight Dodgehuman, Scribe Scrollwizard, Endurance1, Mobility3, Extend Spellwizard 5, Persistent Spell6, [any]9
Skills: Concentration in-class at each level, Perform in-class until 6 ranks (ECL 3), Tumble cross-class until 4 ranks (ECL 5)

Cross-class ranks and spending a feat to get Perform--it's a steep price. You do also get Diplomacy as extra class skill, but that won't convince you. This, though, will: 48 hour-duration wraithstrike. For the low, low price of some fatigue immunity, you can make all your melee attacks as touch attacks for 48 hours. 48 hour-duration draconic polymorph: you can now beat face as an extra-strong , always (N.B. unlike regular [I]polymorph, the draconic version is a legal target for Persist). 48 hour-duration arcane spellsurge (at level 16): all spells take less time to cast. There's tons of spells you'd really like to have active at all times, and with Spelldancer, you can.


P.S. Martial wizard is even better.

human martial wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 4
Feats: Apprentice (Entertainer)flaw, Combat Castingflaw, Dodgewizard 1, Extend Spellhuman, Endurance1, Persistent Spell3, Mobilitywizard 5, [any]6, [any]9
Skills: Concentration in-class at each level, Perform in-class until 6 ranks (ECL 3), Tumble cross-class until 4 ranks (ECL 5)

[heavyfuel]

human wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 4
Feats:Scribe Scrollwizard


You should use the Wizard variant that gives you access to Fighter Bonus Feats. You lose Scribe Scroll (which is nice, but not needed) and the Metamagic at lv 5, but you get Dodge and Mobility instead. You now have 1 spare feat


Conjuration specialist wizard with the immediate action teleport spell like ability is super nice for survivability. Pop out of melee range, out of grapples, behind cover, etc.

You can full attack safely knowing you can always flee (a short distance) on your enemies turn if they target you.

Conjuration Specialist is tough because one of your 3rd level spells MUST be Conjuration, and you MUST use all your 3rd level spells to cast Haste before entering Swiftblade. You can use Alacritous Cogitation to get around this, but that's another feat on an already feat intensive build

[Hiro Quester]

I'm currently playing a Swiftblade. I've read this handbook in its entirety at least a few times. Still, I don't see how the handbook goes against my argument.

Losing caster levels, losing feats, losing spells per day and spells known are all terrible thing for casters. You're a competent caster, sure. And while they certainly are "viable" as you put them, they're far from being at their best if doing so.

Playing a Swiftblade as a primary caster is shooting yourself in the foot, as you'd always be better off staying in your base class, prestiging somewhere else, or playing him as a gish.

Practiced Spellcaster feat gives back the Power of your spells from lost caster levels.

And you get a class ability that lets you cast a quickened spell and two standard spells a round. Or cast Arcane Spellsurge so all your standard actions spells are swift action, then you can cast a swift action spell and full attack each round. Or a swift action spell and two empowered spells in a round.

You still have plenty of spells per day if you play as a sorcerer. (which is also a good idea since you are likely to spam a few spells over and over (disintegrate, empowered disintegrate, empowered disintegrate).

[ExLibrisMortis]

You should use the Wizard variant that gives you access to Fighter Bonus Feats. You lose Scribe Scroll (which is nice, but not needed) and the Metamagic at lv 5, but you get Dodge and Mobility instead. You now have 1 spare feat
Out-edited you by one minute! Of course, martial wizard is better for this build. Lets you pick Spontaneous Divination more easily, or even give up flaws entirely.

[heavyfuel]

Practiced Spellcaster feat gives back the Power of your spells from lost caster levels.

And you get a class ability that lets you cast a quickened spell and two standard spells a round. Or cast Arcane Spellsurge so all your standard actions spells are swift action, then you can cast a swift action spell and full attack each round. Or a swift action spell and two empowered spells in a round.

You still have plenty of spells per day if you play as a sorcerer. (which is also a good idea since you are likely to spam a few spells over and over (disintegrate, empowered disintegrate, empowered disintegrate).

You spend 3 feats, lose spell levels, spells per day, and spells known for this? It's not worth it.

If you're a Sorcerer, as you suggested, Arcane Spellsurge doesn't come online until Lv 17. Seventeen. This guys is starting on lv 10. Saying "Oh just you wait until get 7 levels! Then you'll see!! You'll be a less versatile Sorcerer that might deal slightly more damage!" is a terrible advice.

And your loss of levels makes it so you're never getting 9ths. By the time he gets Arcane Spellsurge, he'd be casting Shapechange and Gate had he stayed a Wizard. How does 3 Disintegrates per round even compare?

Again, not saying you CAN'T play a Swiftblade as a caster, but doing so is objectively worse than playing the base class or prestiging elsewhere. The Swiftblade is a Gish-class. It's almost ridiculous the lengths people go to prove that a class with 6/10 casting is anywhere near the same casting power as a 20/20 class



Out-edited you by one minute! Of course, martial wizard is better for this build. Lets you pick Spontaneous Divination more easily, or even give up flaws entirely.

Swiftbladed!

[ATHATH]

Conjuration Specialist is tough because one of your 3rd level spells MUST be Conjuration, and you MUST use all your 3rd level spells to cast Haste before entering Swiftblade. You can use Alacritous Cogitation to get around this, but that's another feat on an already feat intensive build
Doesn't one of the High Conjurer options trade away the extra spells per day that you get from specializing in a school?

[heavyfuel]

Doesn't one of the High Conjurer options trade away the extra spells per day that you get from specializing in a school?

No idea, honestly. Where is High Conjurer from?

[Hiro Quester]

Again, not saying you CAN'T play a Swiftblade as a caster, but doing so is objectively worse than playing the base class or prestiging elsewhere. The Swiftblade is a Gish-class. It's almost ridiculous the lengths people go to prove that a class with 6/10 casting is anywhere near the same casting power as a 20/20 class




Swiftbladed!

The issue you are discussion isn’t whether to play a swiftblade. It’s why play anything other than a wizard.

But why play a swiftblade? Because it’s fun, and can be very effective as a front row DPS fighter with many added options besides “I hit it with my sword”.

And with a class ability that’s better than The one many take as their first 9th, a predictable-duration Time-stop, and that can come online at 16th level, it really isn’t a poor choice at all.

[heavyfuel]

The issue you are discussion isn’t whether to play a swiftblade. It’s why play anything other than a wizard.


Sorry but... Where did you get that from? :smallconfused:

OP said they are going to play a Swiftblade and that they're going to play the Swiftblade as a Gish. It's you and gkathellar that are talking about playing it as a primary spellcaster instead.

I explicitly gave OP advice on how to play a Swiftblade as a gish. Explicitly said at least twice in this thread that Swiftblades are better as gishes than as primary casters.

There's no reason to further derail this thread. If you want to discuss how the Swiftblade is an awesome primary caster you should probably start your own thread about it.

[Eladrinblade]

You've gone into the class from pure wizard. My swiftblade (at higher level) went in through scout/transmuter and uses a courtblade with power attack and wraithstrike + skirmish/swift surge and spring attack. You're tight on feats, but if you went with martial wizard you could do it. Get a wand chamber for that wraithstrike. Later on with perpetual options, you can move up and full-attack.

[ATHATH]

No idea, honestly. Where is High Conjurer from?
I don't recall exactly where it's from, but it's on the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm

Scroll down to "Spontaneous Summoning".

[Hiro Quester]

Sorry but... Where did you get that from? :smallconfused:

OP said they are going to play a Swiftblade and that they're going to play the Swiftblade as a Gish. It's you and gkathellar that are talking about playing it as a primary spellcaster instead.

I explicitly gave OP advice on how to play a Swiftblade as a gish. Explicitly said at least twice in this thread that Swiftblades are better as gishes than as primary casters.

There's no reason to further derail this thread. If you want to discuss how the Swiftblade is an awesome primary caster you should probably start your own thread about it.

Apologies. I did not remember that you were critiquing that claim. You are right.

My intention was to defend the claim that a swiftblade can be an effective caster, in spite of lost casting levels.

It's not a "primary caster" for the party. It's a front-line damage dealer, that does so with a combination of spells and stabbing.

My point was that losing caster levels, and the feat-tax, isn't as big an impediment to being effective in that kind of role, as it might be for straight-up casters.

Please forgive my annoyance at misunderstanding you to be using the "thou shalt not lose caster levels" commandment as a reason against playing a swiftblade. I see the comparison with full-caster as a reason not to Swiftblade a little too often. I'm getting overly sensitive about it, it seems.

The sorcerer/swiftblade/unseen seer I'm playing has the primary role of murdering or disabling the enemy casters and other significant dangers to my party and our mission. And a bit of party buffing and BFC on the side. An effective caster, but not the primary one for the party.

I'm playing this role because I play in a group that also contains a very effective BFC smartypants wizard, necromancer party-buffer cleric, knight/tank, ranged death-delaing arcane archer, and blaster sorcerer/incantrix.

[Rebel7284]

human wizard 5/spelldancer 1/swiftblade 4
Feats: Apprentice (Entertainer)flaw, Combat Castingflaw, Expeditious/Midnight Dodgehuman, Scribe Scrollwizard, Endurance1, Mobility3, Extend Spellwizard 5, Persistent Spell6, [any]9


Some points:
1. You need 3 BAB to enter Swiftblade, so unless the game uses fractional BAB, the build is not legal.
2. You can get the mobility feat from an armor enhancement. Whether or not it's a good idea depends on how your DM interprets losing prerequisites temporarily to a targeted Dispel Magic. There is also a magic item in Dragon Magazine (Some sort of sandals) that gives Run, Endurance and -2 Dex. I am not a huge fan of relying on items, but it's an option.
3. In general, I do agree that Spelldancer, if allowed, is an amazing addition to Swiftblade.
4. Martial Wizard is very useful and has been mentioned.

To answer the question in the OP, between your Swiftblade class features and spells, you should be pretty difficult to hit.
Some buffs to consider:
Mirror Image, Greater
Blink, Greater
False Life
Friendly Fire
Bite of the Wereboar

Of course, most of these are better persisted, along with Wraithstrike

In those cases where you are deeply concerned about your safety, even with all the layered defenses, you, of course, still have the option of Spring Attack and eventually Bounding Assault.

I suggest you start as Wizard 6/Swiftblade 3/Spelldancer 1 so that you have access to 5th level spells right off the bat.

[heavyfuel]

@OP

If I may make a weird suggestion, if your DM allows for a Divine Casting Swiftblade, Cleric (with Time Domain [Spell Comp.] and Spontaneous Domain Casting [PHB II]) is almost straight up better than Wizard if you don't want to go Wraithstrike->Power Attack route. You're not so squishy (good Fort save and d8s), you qualify for the class at lv 5, not 6, and you can use Travel Devotion in pretty much every combat, making your hit and run tactics even more effective

Overall, you're trading away the awesomeness that is the Wizard spell list as well as the brokenness of Abrupt Jaunt for a slightly faster progression of the Swiftblade class on a more combat focused character which still has a nice list for a Gish.


I don't recall exactly where it's from, but it's on the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm

Scroll down to "Spontaneous Summoning".

This is very interesting. With this, you can get Abrupt Jaunt and you don't need to spend a feat. Quite powerful indeed


Apologies. I did not remember that you were critiquing that claim. You are right.

My intention was to defend the claim that a swiftblade can be an effective caster, in spite of lost casting levels.

It's not a "primary caster" for the party. It's a front-line damage dealer, that does so with a combination of spells and stabbing.

My point was that losing caster levels, and the feat-tax, isn't as big an impediment to being effective in that kind of role, as it might be for straight-up casters.

Please forgive my annoyance at misunderstanding you to be using the "thou shalt not lose caster levels" commandment as a reason against playing a swiftblade. I see the comparison with full-caster as a reason not to Swiftblade a little too often. I'm getting overly sensitive about it, it seems.

The sorcerer/swiftblade/unseen seer I'm playing has the primary role of murdering or disabling the enemy casters and other significant dangers to my party and our mission. And a bit of party buffing and BFC on the side. An effective caster, but not the primary one for the party.

I'm playing this role because I play in a group that also contains a very effective BFC smartypants wizard, necromancer party-buffer cleric, knight/tank, ranged death-delaing arcane archer, and blaster sorcerer/incantrix.

No harm no foul :smallwink:



1. You need 3 BAB to enter Swiftblade, so unless the game uses fractional BAB, the build is not legal.


Ex did specify you need fractional BAB

[Fouredged Sword]

I prefer to run my martial swiftblades as pure martial with scout 1 / ranger 4 / trapsmith 1 / swiftblade 9 / ranger 5.

A pure wizard entry should likely wield a quarterstaff and focus on bfc spells, trusting haste to act as defense and using your extra actions to move/full attack or cast/move/attack.

A gish blade needs to focus very carefully on spells they cannot do without. Haste grows to cover a LOT of your defense, and you are likely to want to focus on attacking with a weapon for damage. That means you should look closely for spells that control the battle or buff allies with abilities hard to replicate without spells.

You will never have the number of spells a wiz 20 will have. Focus on high return low level spells without save dc's. Aim for 24 int after magic items/level bonuses to not have to dump add str, dex, and con. No need to get a bonus 9th level spell slot you never are going to see.

[heavyfuel]

I prefer to run my martial swiftblades as pure martial with scout 1 / ranger 4 / trapsmith 1 / swiftblade 9 / ranger 5.

Ok, I know the guy who designed the class said Trapsmith is ok, but it's still up to the DM to allow them.

Plus, your Swiftblade would progress your Trapsmith spellcasting, which, for lack of a better word, sucks

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, I know the guy who designed the class said Trapsmith is ok, but it's still up to the DM to allow them.

Plus, your Swiftblade would progress your Trapsmith spellcasting, which, for lack of a better word, sucks

Yeah, but you are not in any way a spellcaster. You are a very, very fast martial character who relies on skirmish damage (scout, ranger, and swiftblade all add to skirmish) who can move and double greater manyshot each round. Your skirmish bypasses immunity for a few type immune enemies (swift hunter). You can switch hit by pulling out a melee weapon and still move and full attack each round.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yeah, but you are not in any way a spellcaster. You are a very, very fast martial character who relies on skirmish damage (scout, ranger, and swiftblade all add to skirmish) who can move and double greater manyshot each round. Your skirmish bypasses immunity for a few type immune enemies (swift hunter). You can switch hit by pulling out a melee weapon and still move and full attack each round.
The build you posted, as written, doesn't qualify for Swift Hunter and Trapsmith. You don't have 1d6/+1 skirmish, and you don't have the class skills to qualify for Trapsmith. Scouts and rangers don't get Open Lock, so the earliest qualification for Trapsmith would be at level 7 (5 cross-class ranks).

That's not hard to fix, of course; you can go scout 3-4/ranger 3-4/trapsmith 1/swiftblade 9/ranger +3. All in all, it's a pretty cool variation on the typical Swift Hunter, but it takes some work, and it's a little more feat-intensive than normal.

P.S. Swiftblade technically doesn't grant Skirmish, so Swift Hunter doesn't affect it, but isn't needed either, because it isn't precision damage.