Hexblade Coffeelock

[Easy_Lee]

So, here's a dumb idea.

Say you start as a Drow Hexblade-blade and take Elven Accuracy followed by GWM. Next, you take a suitable number of Sorcerer levels and pick up Quicken.

Because of the Trance errata, you can long rest in four hours. This resets your spell slots. For the next four hours, you can take four short rests and convert your warlock spell slots to spell points at the start of each. Thus, each time the party takes a long rest, you can recover spell points equal to your sorcerer level plus your combined warlock spell slot levels - up to 43 sorcerery points on a level 9 warlock / 3 sorcerer.

Our level 12 Hexblade Coffeelock casts darkness on himself. He can make two attacks from ten feet with a conjured glaive, rolling 6d20. He can make a bonus action attack if he crits or kills something, or he can Quicken Agonizing EB if he doesn't. In the latter case, he will have rolled 15d20 for his attacks.

There's very little chance that he ever runs out of spell points or, consequently, sorcerer spell slots - usable on misty step, shield, and similar.

Is this build as dumb as I think it is? Does anything RAW make this not work?

[Degwerks]

Seems to work. Obviously you'd want Improved Pact Weapon invocation if you plan on going SAD with charisma. I'd also grab Grasp of Hadar to pull enemies into your reach to activate PAM reaction attacks. Warcaster to really make that PAM reaction attack hurt more with Booming Blade.

Shadow Sorcerer seems like the obvious choice but Divine Soul gives a lot of goodies.

Edit: oops the feats I mentioned can be grabbed later. Spaced off the crit fishing with GWM and Elven Accuracy you were after.

[JackPhoenix]

"You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest." With 3 levels of sorcerer, your sorcery point maximum is 3.

With flexible casting, you would gain 7 sorcery from each converted warlock spell slot, but as your maximum is 3, you'll waste most of it. You can convert sorcery points to (normal) spell slots, 3 SP for second level slot. You aren't limited in number of spell slots, but if you decide to convert them back to sorcery points for different use, you'll get only 2 SP for 2nd level spell slot.

It works, kinda, but it's very ineffective. Good thing most of the stuff he would want to do (Darkness, Shield, Misty Step, Shadow Blade (better than glaive, though no reach)) *can* be done with level 2 slots! Even converting them to fuel metamagic (but propably not quicken, as using Flexible Casting either way costs bonus action).

It works better with Hexblade than with caster focused 'lock. "Standard" cofeelock doesn't run of warlock, but uses warlock dip to get SP, and takes mostly levels in sorcerer.

[Easy_Lee]

"You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest." With 3 levels of sorcerer, your sorcery point maximum is 3.

Ah, I missed a step. Flexible casting: convert spell points into second level spell slots at a cost of three points per slot.

So you instead create 42/3=14 second level sorcerer spell slots, which you can convert into two sorcery points each as a bonus action. That makes things...a little more complex but still moderately broken.

You'd want more sorcerer levels in that case. Hexblade 5-6, then sorcerer. By twelve, that gives you enough spell points to Quicken three times per combat and use bonus actions afterward to restore those points.

[Foff]

what you CAN do is convert those sorcery points into spellslots, as long as you dont take a long rest your spellslots don't reset, so you can keep makin spellslots even above your maximum, which you can then convert again in sorcery points, if needed.
works even better if you go Tomelock and take the gift of the ever living ones, never having to long rest ever again, take divine soul sorcery origin and heal youself with cure wounds instead of using hit dice (if out of combat healing is a problem)

This coffeelock chassis (Tomelock 3/Sorc X) works well with hexblade, everything works on your CHA, you don't need to go blade path to be an effective melee dps, quickening/twinning (gfb/bb) SCAG cantrips is most likely better than extra attack, use armor of agathys, darkness, blink, shield to stay alive, you're all set


EDIT: the invocation isn't gift of the ever living ones but Aspect of the Moon as Mikal said

[Mikal]

what you CAN do is convert those sorcery points into spellslots, as long as you dont take a long rest your spellslots don't reset, so you can keep makin spellslots even above your maximum, which you can then convert again in sorcery points, if needed.
works even better if you go Tomelock and take the gift of the ever living ones, never having to long rest ever again, take divine soul sorcery origin and heal youself with cure wounds instead of using hit dice (if out of combat healing is a problem)

This coffeelock chassis (Tomelock 3/Sorc X) works well with hexblade, everything works on your CHA, you don't need to go blade path to be an effective melee dps, quickening/twinning (gfb/bb) SCAG cantrips is most likely better than extra attack, use armor of agathys, darkness, blink, shield to stay alive, you're all set

I would recommend Aspect of the Moon (same thing isn't it? AotM is the official one though). Never need sleep again (in case someone tries to force you to sleep during your long rest or get the exhaustion levels/HD dis-effectiveness)
Also Tomelock.
Use 7-8 Short Rests during that time to cannibalize your Warlock slots into SP to rebuild Sorcerer Slots you don't regain normally anymore. JC already confirmed you can never be forced to take a long rest, so you can use that time to regenerate spell slots.

EDIT: Ignore my zombie army part. Looked it up, only 24 hours. drat.

Also, drop Drow, go half-elf. Better stats and you no longer have sunlight sensitivity.

[Easy_Lee]

Great comments. Looks like it's almost as dumb as I thought - or a little dumber given the now theoretically infinite second level slots.

Can your DM stop you from taking eight consecutive short rests without violating RAW?

[Mikal]

Great comments. Looks like it's almost as dumb as I thought - or a little dumber given the now theoretically infinite second level slots.

Can your DM stop you from taking eight consecutive short rests without violating RAW?

Grudge monsters can always disrupt a short rest unless you got some sort of 3.x style Rope Trick. However, note you won't be able to be a Blade Pact with Aspect of the Moon since it require tomelock.. so the biggest weapon you're using is a two handed longsword and if you want Smites you'll be going into Paladin.

Also note that he can disrupt you like for all those short rests, and as long as the disruption doesn't last a full hour, it doesn't affect the long rest everyone else is using.
So... multiple kobold ambushes the second time this is tried I forsee...

[Easy_Lee]

Grudge monsters can always disrupt a short rest unless you got some sort of 3.x style Rope Trick. However, note you won't be able to be a Blade Pact with Aspect of the Moon since it require tomelock.. so the biggest weapon you're using is a two handed longsword and if you want Smites you'll be going into Paladin.

Also note that he can disrupt you like for all those short rests, and as long as the disruption doesn't last a full hour, it doesn't affect the long rest everyone else is using.
So... multiple kobold ambushes the second time this is tried I forsee...

Got it. The DM can stop you, but only if he very specifically targets you or stops the whole group from resting at all. Meaning this is not a good character to bring to a home game but might be funny in AL since it's technically legal.

[Foff]

Got it. The DM can stop you, but only if he very specifically targets you or stops the whole group from resting at all. Meaning this is not a good character to bring to a home game but might be funny in AL since it's technically legal.

it IS a fenomenal character to bring to a home game tbh, he even isn't really all that broken.
You're trading one of your two invocations (arguably a big feature for a warlock), and 3 caster levels (your warlock level does not add up to your sorc caster level) to add flexibility to a class that honestly quite needs it.
Don't forget that your options are REALLY limited, and your character progression is quite gimped, the build comes online at level 4 and will get level 3 spells only at level 8.
You're not overpowered, you just have theoretically infinite magical stamina.
Every time you could take a short rest (while travelling on a chariot, when the party stops for supplies) you SHOULD "make coffe" and store spellslots just to KEEP UP with other characters of your same level dishing out and witstanding loads of punishment.

[Spiritchaser]

Great comments. Looks like it's almost as dumb as I thought - or a little dumber given the now theoretically infinite second level slots.

Can your DM stop you from taking eight consecutive short rests without violating RAW?

This falls into the category of MC gimmick shenanigans that I expressly reserve the right to forbid at my table.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a cool manipulation of the rules, but it’s not something I have the patience for.

I would imagine some other DMs would be the same.

If, for some incomprehensible reason, I was bound to accept a build like this at my table, I would make it clear before the game that the character in question would find a ready supply of RAW ferrets taking an active interest in nipping some sensitive parts while they tried to chain 4 short rests after their 4 hour trance.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, a level 6 version of this, sorc 3 / Warlock 3, can have effectively infinite uses of quicken, invisibility, misty step, shield, and the like. Stick Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear on the build and you can do some stuff from very far away. I don't know if that's considered broken or not, but it definitely opens up some possibilities.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's possible to cast sorcerer spells with warlock spell slots and vice versa. That's quite a few spells to have on-hand at all times if so.

[mgshamster]

Do you have to do this with this specific build?

Can't it be done with any Sorc 2+/Warlock X?

[Easy_Lee]

Do you have to do this with this specific build?

Can't it be done with any Sorc 2+/Warlock X?

Yes, but then you're creating first level spell slots and only have two sorcery points. You also don't have Metamagic until sorcerer 3.

At least three levels of each is optimal. From there, more sorcerer levels is probably an overall superior build. Note that by level 8 you can have lightning bolt, fireball, Quicken, and Empowered with effectively infinite spell slots and, by extension, spell points to cast them with.

One cannot underestimate the power of infinite quickened empowered fireballs and lightning bolts combined with agonizing EB. And the character never sleeps...**** guys, what have we done?

[mgshamster]

I took the question of whether this would be allowed in an official AL Game, and so far all the responses are to the effect of: "This isn't a legal build." People are just flat out refusing to accept it.

One person has said (paraphrased), "GM needs to cool it and just let the player have fun. If it's legal, allow it."

===============

Follow up questions:

Do you lose all these spell slots with a new long rest? The rules under sorc state that you replenish lost spell slots, but not that you lose one's you've purchased.

So potentially you could spend a whole day just short resting to gain warlock spell slots, then spend a few minutes converting to sorc points (up to the amount listed in the table), then converting to sorcerer spell slots. There's no cap for spell slots and you don't lose them when long resting, so repeat until you have hundreds of spell slots.

Then cap it off with a fresh number roof sorc points, and convert spell slots as necessary to regain spell slots. Short rest when needed.

[Degwerks]

I'd want at least 9 levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer for a half-elf hexblade coffee Tomelock. If what I can recall from Divine Soul, you get to pick cleric spells too, so picking a 5th level Greater Restoration will give you the means to remove exhaustion levels you may accrue from skipping a long rest. With that you can skip your 4 hour long rest at least once and stock up a bunch of slots if need be.

Aspect of the Moon or whatever its called now invocation, the Ancient Secrets tome invocation, and whatever suits you. Fun thing is now you have ritual access, so Leomunds Tiny Hut can thwart any attempts into disrupting you taking up to 8 hrs of short rests in succession.

[RickAllison]

What errata changed how the Trance worked? I didn't notice any changes to that effect in the 6th printing of the errata, but I may have missed it.

[alchahest]

I feel like this has been asked and answered already, you can't have more spell points than you can normally have at your level, and you can't go over your number of slots. I might be wrong though, and I will totally accept that.

[Degwerks]

I took the question of whether this would be allowed in an official AL Game, and so far all the responses are to the effect of: "This isn't a legal build." People are just flat out refusing to accept it.

One person has said (paraphrased), "GM needs to cool it and just let the player have fun. If it's legal, allow it."

===============

Follow up questions:

Do you lose all these spell slots with a new long rest? The rules under sorc state that you replenish lost spell slots, but not that you lose one's you've purchased.

So potentially you could spend a whole day just short resting to gain warlock spell slots, then spend a few minutes converting to sorc points (up to the amount listed in the table), then converting to sorcerer spell slots. There's no cap for spell slots and you don't lose them when long resting, so repeat until you have hundreds of spell slots.

Then cap it off with a fresh number roof sorc points, and convert spell slots as necessary to regain spell slots. Short rest when needed.

There was a sage advice errata or something that said you lose the extra spell slots stockpiled after the long rest.

[mgshamster]

I feel like this has been asked and answered already, you can't have more spell points than you can normally have at your level, and you can't go over your number of slots. I might be wrong though, and I will totally accept that.

The limit on spell slots is under the magic chapter, and counts as a general rule.

The sorcerer section says that you gain "additional" spell slots and had no mention of being limited. Therefore it's an exception to the general rule. Specific overrides general.

[alchahest]

cool cool, I'd thought it was errata'd/clarified at some point but it's nothing I'm married to, just a curiosity.

-edit- I might have been thinking of the "you can't use sorcery points to gain spell slots higher than you can normally cast" thing in the errata

[mgshamster]

You're correct. The errata document states that you lose the created spell slots at the end of a long rest.

That helps diminish the cheese a little bit.

[Mikal]

You're correct. The errata document states that you lose the created spell slots at the end of a long rest.

That helps diminish the cheese a little bit.

Which is why you go Tomelock and take Aspect of the Moon.
You no longer need to sleep, and no longer need to take long rests, unless you want to refresh actual long rest mechanics.

[mgshamster]

Which is why you go Tomelock and take Aspect of the Moon.
You no longer need to sleep, and no longer need to take long rests.

Hahahaha!

That is fantastic.

[alchahest]

This is the sort of thing I'd run by my DM first so I don't disrupt the game to be honest.

[Mikal]

Hahahaha!

That is fantastic.

Bonus- this lets you go Half-Elf for that extra Cha and skill goodness. Or any other race you want besides elf (though Lee was talking about using Elf Accuracy so..)
This does downgrade you from a melee standpoint to versatile weapons on damage and if you want to smite you gotta go Paladin though.

[Joe the Rat]

Another selling point on Tome - Leomund's Tiny Hut is a ritual. That pretty well takes care of your uninterrupted not-long-rest.

Seriously, that spell was the worst thing to suggest to the party. Now I have to entice them to go outside for rest-interrupting encounters...

[mgshamster]

Another selling point on Tome - Leomund's Tiny Hut is a ritual. That pretty well takes care of your uninterrupted not-long-rest.

Seriously, that spell was the worst thing to suggest to the party. Now I have to entice them to go outside for rest-interrupting encounters...

For AL, just spend a few downtime days to ensure you're never interrupted.

[Foff]

This is the sort of thing I'd run by my DM first so I don't disrupt the game to be honest.

as I said before, I really don't see this being disruptive at all, you're not all powerful, you're not a retarded half elf with elven accuracy sorcadin fishing for crits like a madman
you're not a stereotypical variant human powerbuild focused on murderhoboing people
you're a fairly weak but durable character
you don't break anything, you have a fun character who never sleeps, doesn't need to, and brings utility to the party
if anything this build is original and fun to play with, both for the player AND the DM in my opinion
I'd allow the hell out of it and mess with the player IF it gets out of control (which it won't, in a regular campaign)

[Foff]

Another selling point on Tome - Leomund's Tiny Hut is a ritual. That pretty well takes care of your uninterrupted not-long-rest.

Seriously, that spell was the worst thing to suggest to the party. Now I have to entice them to go outside for rest-interrupting encounters...

This... this is just peachy

[Zene]

Cool idea, and I believe as originally posted it'd work (with the caveat that sorc points can't exceed the maximum, as already noted). And yes it is AL legal, AL DMs cannot disallow a legal character build.

I'd propose that it'd work slightly better if you always keep your sorc levels higher than your warlock levels (and cap warlock at 5, and only if you really want that extra attack instead of being an EB blaster). That way you maximize the efficiency of those short rests, instead of getting more sorc points than your maximum and needing to dump them.

Also, while Divine Soul is amazing --since you really want to focus on attack rolls, you may want to consider Shadow Sorc instead. Casting Darkness for 2 sorc points is great, free devil's sight frees up an invocation slot, and the Hound option basically gives you a free metamagic (3 points for a Heighten effect plus some other benefits) for when you want to toss a saving-throw spell instead of attacking. Also note, being able to Twin Dragon's Breath on your hound and a teammate (or a teammate's familiar, or your own familiar if you go Chain or Tome or take Magic Initiate) is a pretty dang strong trick on top of an already strong build.


I would recommend Aspect of the Moon (same thing isn't it? AotM is the official one though). Never need sleep again (in case someone tries to force you to sleep during your long rest or get the exhaustion levels/HD dis-effectiveness)
Also Tomelock.
Use 7-8 Short Rests during that time to cannibalize your Warlock slots into SP to rebuild Sorcerer Slots you don't regain normally anymore. JC already confirmed you can never be forced to take a long rest, so you can use that time to regenerate spell slots.


Aspect of the moon says instead of sleeping you can do light activity for a long rest. It doesn't say you can also then fit short rests in there. This would be an easy way for a DM to shut this down.

Instead, going full elf, and relying on trance to do a 4-hour long rest (and then 4 hour-long short rests) is as far as I can see the only way to do it.


I took the question of whether this would be allowed in an official AL Game, and so far all the responses are to the effect of: "This isn't a legal build." People are just flat out refusing to accept it.

One person has said (paraphrased), "GM needs to cool it and just let the player have fun. If it's legal, allow it."

Do you mind sharing where you asked this question? I'd be interested in seeing what the discussion was. But yeah as the paraphrase said, if it's AL legal they have to allow it. AL DMs can't houserule, they can only make rulings where the rules are ambiguous; and nothing in this build is ambiguous.

[Mikal]

Aspect of the moon says instead of sleeping you can do light activity for a long rest. It doesn't say you can also then fit short rests in there. This would be an easy way for a DM to shut this down.

Instead, going full elf, and relying on trance to do a 4-hour long rest (and then 4 hour-long short rests) is as far as I can see the only way to do it.

Except the only reasons to take a long rest are to sleep and refresh long rest abilities and technically sleep doesn't have anything mechanically imposed if missed unless you use the variant rule in Xanathars. If you don't care about refreshing long rest abilities, then you can use the time everyone else is sleeping to take 8 Short Rests while they take their Long Rest.
As has been stated EDIT: in Xanathar's, you cannot be forced to take a Long Rest by any means, so you just use the time more... efficiently.

The Invocation is just saying if you did want to take a Long Rest, you can do so using that means. That doesn't mean you have to take a Long Rest... ever.

EDIT: Xanathar's Guide, page 78.
GOING WITHOUT A LONG REST
A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep
does have its consequences. If you want to account for
the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures,
use these rules.

[alchahest]

as I said before, I really don't see this being disruptive at all, you're not all powerful, you're not a retarded half elf with elven accuracy sorcadin fishing for crits like a madman
you're not a stereotypical variant human powerbuild focused on murderhoboing people
you're a fairly weak but durable character
you don't break anything, you have a fun character who never sleeps, doesn't need to, and brings utility to the party
if anything this build is original and fun to play with, both for the player AND the DM in my opinion
I'd allow the hell out of it and mess with the player IF it gets out of control (which it won't, in a regular campaign)

I'm not saying my DM would overrule it - I'm just saying I'd check with him first, because it goes outside of the norm for resource management.

[Zene]

Except the only reasons to take a long rest are to sleep and refresh long rest abilities and technically sleep doesn't have anything mechanically imposed if missed unless you use the variant rule in Xanathars. If you don't care about refreshing long rest abilities, then you can use the time everyone else is sleeping to take 8 Short Rests while they take their Long Rest.
As has been stated by JC before, you cannot be forced to take a Long Rest by any means, so you just use the time more... efficiently.

The Invocation is just saying if you did want to take a Long Rest, you can do so using that means. That doesn't mean you have to take a Long Rest... ever.

Oh sure, but if your DM is using LR exhaustion rules, you'd probably want to do this non-sleeping LR every night. Which means you don't get to pump those short-rest warlock slot / sorcery point cycles unless your team wants to sit around for a few extra hours.

But yeah if your DM is cool with just taking a bunch of short rests overnight and not giving you exhaustion for it, then Aspect of the Moon is probably way better than Trance; I just can't imagine DMs giving an extra (unnecessary) boost to an already strong build, when many DMs will think this is munchkinry and be somewhat opposed to it to begin with.

[Easy_Lee]

Oh sure, but if your DM is using LR exhaustion rules, you'd probably want to do this non-sleeping LR every night. Which means you don't get to pump those short-rest warlock slot / sorcery point cycles unless your team wants to sit around for a few extra hours.

But yeah if your DM is cool with just taking a bunch of short rests overnight and not giving you exhaustion for it, then Aspect of the Moon is probably way better than Trance; I just can't imagine DMs giving an extra (unnecessary) boost to an already strong build, when many DMs will think this is munchkinry and be somewhat opposed to it to begin with.

I think aspect of the moon prevents you from accumulating exhaustion from skipped long rests, though I'm unsure as I don't have the book yet.

[Mikal]

I think aspect of the moon prevents you from accumulating exhaustion from skipped long rests, though I'm unsure as I don't have the book yet.

Correct. Aspect of the Moon blocks the need for sleep, and Xanathar's says that long rests are never mandatory except for sleep (and even then aren't mandatory, you just get negative effects).

From pg 78

GOING WITHOUT A LONG REST
A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep
does have its consequences. If you want to account for
the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures,
use these rules.


Oh sure, but if your DM is using LR exhaustion rules, you'd probably want to do this non-sleeping LR every night. Which means you don't get to pump those short-rest warlock slot / sorcery point cycles unless your team wants to sit around for a few extra hours.

Actually it's the opposite. You get the benefit of 8 short rests while everyone takes 1 long rest... so your cycle goes on while they sleep.
Wait 1 hour, refresh Warlock slots, convert to SP. Use as SP for whatever. Wait another hour, repeat until the rest of the part wakes up.


But yeah if your DM is cool with just taking a bunch of short rests overnight and not giving you exhaustion for it, then Aspect of the Moon is probably way better than Trance; I just can't imagine DMs giving an extra (unnecessary) boost to an already strong build, when many DMs will think this is munchkinry and be somewhat opposed to it to begin with.

Aspect of the Moon specifically negates the need for sleep, and the exhaustion rules come in due to lack of sleep from a long rest. It's not very munchkinry since you're sacrificing HD healing (so recommend taking Celestial or Favored Soul for cure spells on yourself), and requires a specific build, all for Sorcery Points you'd need to use to help refresh any Sorcerer slots you expended during the day before you could do the SP cycle.

[Lombra]

Ah, I missed a step. Flexible casting: convert spell points into second level spell slots at a cost of three points per slot.

So you instead create 42/3=14 second level sorcerer spell slots, which you can convert into two sorcery points each as a bonus action. That makes things...a little more complex but still moderately broken.

You'd want more sorcerer levels in that case. Hexblade 5-6, then sorcerer. By twelve, that gives you enough spell points to Quicken three times per combat and use bonus actions afterward to restore those points.

I believe that you can't have more slots than the ones your class table shows. The whole coffelock thing doesn't look reasonable to me.

[mgshamster]

Google+ Question to the AL Group:

https://plus.google.com/115832680926091121174/posts/V4bcNCoozXB

You can only post (and maybe see?) if you're already a member of the group. Otherwise you'll have to wait a few days to get your request to join approved.

[Easy_Lee]

Well guys, we've created a character who never sleeps and has effectively infinite spell slots, metamagic, and healing...and he's AL-legal. I think we're done.


I believe that you can't have more slots than the ones your class table shows. The whole coffelock thing doesn't look reasonable to me.

It isn't reasonable, but it technically works due to the wording.

Flexible Casting

You can use your sorcery points to gain additional Spell Slots, or sacrifice Spell Slots to gain additional sorcery points. You learn other ways to use your sorcery points as you reach higher levels.


It furthermore says that these spell slots "vanish" at the end of a long rest, solidifying the intent. Creating extra spell slots is RAW and seems to be RAI. But I doubt they ever imagined this.

[Mikal]

Well guys, we've created a character who never sleeps and has effectively infinite spell slots, metamagic, and healing...and he's AL-legal. I think we're done.



It isn't reasonable, but it technically works due to the wording.

Flexible Casting

You can use your sorcery points to gain additional Spell Slots, or sacrifice Spell Slots to gain additional sorcery points. You learn other ways to use your sorcery points as you reach higher levels.


I'd say if you want to maximize the potential on it, you stop Warlock at 4 (only for the ASI). You're not going to get more than 2 regenerating slots for several levels and it lets you get the higher level spell slots on the Sorcerer side.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Except the only reasons to take a long rest are to sleep and refresh long rest abilities and technically sleep doesn't have anything mechanically imposed if missed unless you use the variant rule in Xanathars. If you don't care about refreshing long rest abilities, then you can use the time everyone else is sleeping to take 8 Short Rests while they take their Long Rest.
As has been stated EDIT: in Xanathar's, you cannot be forced to take a Long Rest by any means, so you just use the time more... efficiently.

The Invocation is just saying if you did want to take a Long Rest, you can do so using that means. That doesn't mean you have to take a Long Rest... ever.

EDIT: Xanathar's Guide, page 78.
GOING WITHOUT A LONG REST
A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep
does have its consequences. If you want to account for
the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures,
use these rules.

Do AL DMs have to follow the new rules in Xanathar's? I ask, because so many people are saying that the book is optional. And if it is optional, couldn't DMs just choose to ignore the passage about not requiring long rests?

[Easy_Lee]

Do AL DMs have to follow the new rules in Xanathar's? I ask, because so many people are saying that the book is optional. And if it is optional, couldn't DMs just choose to ignore the passage about not requiring long rests?

In my experience, AL DMs can do as they please but are encouraged to follow the rules as written and allow all AL legal material. I say encouraged because I don't think there's a referee to call foul if they don't follow the rules.

As such, the character technically works but you're best off being quiet about what you can do.

[Mikal]

Do AL DMs have to follow the new rules in Xanathar's? I ask, because so many people are saying that the book is optional. And if it is optional, couldn't DMs just choose to ignore the passage about not requiring long rests?

I would think so. Unless AL bans it, it's allowable.
The book is optional in that a PC can only be built using the PHB+1 rule, which means PHB plus any single allowed book, such as Volo's, Sword Coast... or Xanathatr's.


In my experience, AL DMs can do as they please but are encouraged to follow the rules as written and allow all AL legal material. I say encouraged because I don't think there's a referee to call foul if they don't follow the rules.

Wait. So Players are extremely limited in what they can do (item creation, downtime that's not crap, no flying races, can't even keep certain items from adventures like White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Annihilation)... but DMs can do as they please in disallowing things or allowing things?

Reason #7 I'm glad I don't AL.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yes. Unless AL bans it, it's allowable.
The book is optional in that a PC can only be built using the PHB+1 rule, which means PHB plus any single allowed book, such as Volo's, Sword Coast... or Xanathatr's.

No, I meant more do the DMs have to use it? You say it's allowable, which makes sense given the PHB+1 rule, but I'm more asking if the DMs have to use all the rules presented in it, like the reaction to identify a spell?

The closest AL game for me is about 5 hours away, so I've never actually gone to an event.

[Provo]

you're a fairly weak but durable character
you don't break anything, you have a fun character who never sleeps, doesn't need to, and brings utility to the party

Having a 4 hour long rest and 4 short tests? Sure, you aren't breaking anything.

Having no long rests ever, and taking advantage of every free hour for more points? Definitely breaking things.

DM: Ok, you guys spend a day in town.

Warlock: Awesome, I take 24 short rests...

Considering that you need at least Warlock 3 (to negate sleep) and sorcerer 2 you get...

48 1st level slots at lvl 5 or 32 second level slots at lvl 6 (your teammates might have 3rd lvl, but only three slots)

All this from a day in town. Imagine travel. You can go several days between encounters.

In the current AL season, my character would have accumulated hundreds of slots by now considering our rate of encounters.

[Mikal]

No, I meant more do the DMs have to use it? You say it's allowable, which makes sense given the PHB+1 rule, but I'm more asking if the DMs have to use all the rules presented in it, like the reaction to identify a spell?

The closest AL game for me is about 5 hours away, so I've never actually gone to an event.

Well the only mechanic that Xanathar's has in place is the invocation- that's certainly allowable. The rest of it is from the PHB.
The "never need to take a long rest" is a clarification on the rules, not a new rule. Technically, you've never had to take a long rest. All the rest of that section does is provide a rule to punish people who don't sleep.

[Zene]

Correct. Aspect of the Moon blocks the need for sleep, and Xanathar's says that long rests are never mandatory except for sleep (and even then aren't mandatory, you just get negative effects).

From pg 78


Also on p78, right below that: "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion". Note that isn't saying sleep, it's saying long rest. And it then goes on to described increased DC the longer you go.

And the actual text of Aspect of the Moon says "To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch". There is absolutely nothing in there that says while spending that 8 hours to gain the benefit of a long rest, you can also be gaining the benefits of short rests. That's an ambiguity, sure, but I don't know a single DM I can believe would rule that's allowed.

So you're left with the option of taking 8 short rests, but getting no long rest and being forced to make successively harder Con saves to avoid exhaustion levels ; or taking a long rest, not sleeping, but also not taking short rests to cycle your pact slots into sorc points.

[Mikal]

Also on p78, right below that: "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion". Note that isn't saying sleep, it's saying long rest. And it then goes on to described increased DC the longer you go.

Way to cherry pick. You forgot the parts before and after that, which explicitly show that the rule you're quoting is regarding sleep deprivation. Which Aspect of the Moon negates.

To quote the entire thing (emphasis mine)

A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep
does have its consequences. If you want to account for
the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures,
use these rules.
Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing
a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution
saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.
It becomes harder to fight off exhaustion if you stay
awake for multiple days. After the first 24 hours, the
DC increases by 5 for each consecutive 24-hour period
without a long rest. The DC resets to 10 when you finish
a long rest.

So... yeah. Nice attempt at twisting a small section of a quote into something else entirely.


And the actual text of Aspect of the Moon says "To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch". There is absolutely nothing in there that says while spending that 8 hours to gain the benefit of a long rest, you can also be gaining the benefits of short rests. That's an ambiguity, sure, but I don't know a single DM I can believe would rule that's allowed.

It doesn't say that because you don't have to ever take a long rest. Long rests are never mandatory. The only drawbacks are not regaining long rest abilities, or sleep deprivation effects. You no longer suffer sleep deprivation effects because you no longer need to sleep.


So you're left with the option of taking 8 short rests, but getting no long rest and being forced to make successively harder Con saves to avoid exhaustion levels ; or taking a long rest, not sleeping, but also not taking short rests to cycle your pact slots into sorc points.

Wrong.
You're left with the option of spending 8 short rests to charge magic slots every night, because you no longer suffer the effects of sleep deprivation because you no longer need to sleep, and the only drawbacks again, of no long rest are the lack of long rest recharges and sleep deprivation which, one more time you no longer suffer.

[Easy_Lee]

Also on p78, right below that: "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion". Note that isn't saying sleep, it's saying long rest. And it then goes on to described increased DC the longer you go.

And the actual text of Aspect of the Moon says "To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch". There is absolutely nothing in there that says while spending that 8 hours to gain the benefit of a long rest, you can also be gaining the benefits of short rests. That's an ambiguity, sure, but I don't know a single DM I can believe would rule that's allowed.

So you're left with the option of taking 8 short rests, but getting no long rest and being forced to make successively harder Con saves to avoid exhaustion levels ; or taking a long rest, not sleeping, but also not taking short rests to cycle your pact slots into sorc points.

Depends on if your DM rules that the exhaustion comes from lack of sleep or from a lack of an eight-hour rest. Now, if you're getting technical, your DM is free to rule that taking eight consecutive short rests counts as a long rest. But that's houseruling.

Assuming he goes with the exhaustion bit, a level 9 cleric in the party can cast greater restoration, as can a level 12 coffee lock who's also a divine soul. So the DM would only be delaying the inevitable if he tries to stop this using RAW only.

[Mikal]

Depends on if your DM rules that the exhaustion comes from lack of sleep or from a lack of an eight-hour rest. Now, if you're getting technical, your DM is free to rule that taking eight consecutive short rests counts as a long rest. But that's houseruling.

Assuming he goes with the exhaustion bit, a level 9 cleric in the party can cast greater restoration, as can a level 12 coffee lock who's also a divine soul. So the DM would only be delaying the inevitable if he tries to stop this using RAW only.

But that's the thing, the DM can't rule that because taking the section in its entirety shows that the rule is regarding sleep deprivation effects. Well the DM can... but it's completely taking both RAW and RAI and spitting on it, if they say they're doing it to follow the rule as it's "supposed to be". Zene was just being dishonest and cherrypicking the rule to make it sound like something else.

[8wGremlin]

Also on p78, right below that: "Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion". Note that isn't saying sleep, it's saying long rest. And it then goes on to described increased DC the longer you go.

And the actual text of Aspect of the Moon says "To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch". There is absolutely nothing in there that says while spending that 8 hours to gain the benefit of a long rest, you can also be gaining the benefits of short rests. That's an ambiguity, sure, but I don't know a single DM I can believe would rule that's allowed.

So you're left with the option of taking 8 short rests, but getting no long rest and being forced to make successively harder Con saves to avoid exhaustion levels ; or taking a long rest, not sleeping, but also not taking short rests to cycle your pact slots into sorc points.


That's awesome!

I've played a coffee lock for a long time now.
It is versatile, it's reasonably powerful.

Things that I have found.

Strict adherence to the SP limit

if you convert a spell to SP if you go over your limit, you lose them (as this is a bonus action on your turn)
if you convert SP to a spell takes a bonus action on your turn

Strict adherence to gaining HD back

this can be a problem, and you and the GM should really read about it.


Aspect of the Moon (AotM) opened this up to any tomelock, not just elves.
AotM gives 8 short rests per long rest, whilst the old elven trance gave 4

I played a divine soul really does help with the exhaustion aspect.

[Easy_Lee]

That's awesome!

I've played a coffee lock for a long time now.
It is versatile, it's reasonably powerful.

Things that I have found.

Strict adherence to the SP limit

if you convert a spell to SP if you go over your limit, you lose them (as this is a bonus action on your turn)
if you convert SP to a spell takes a bonus action on your turn

Strict adherence to gaining HD back

this can be a problem, and you and the GM should really read about it.


Aspect of the Moon (AotM) opened this up to any tomelock, not just elves.
AotM gives 8 short rests per long rest, whilst the old elven trance gave 4

I played a divine soul really does help with the exhaustion aspect.

Not to mention the healing aspect. The character can top off himself and his teammates after every fight. As shown by the healing spirit thread, that by itself is broken in some people's opinions.

[Mikal]

I played a divine soul really does help with the exhaustion aspect.

Celestial Warlock would probably do better because you get 16 cure wounds spells per long rest since you can perform 8 short rests now per night.
If you take it to 6, combine with Dragon Sorcerer for extra Cha to fire.

Alas, Healing Light is long rest, so that ability does get essentially removed.


Not to mention the healing aspect. The character can top off himself and his teammates after every fight. As shown by the healing spirit thread, that by itself is broken in some people's opinions.

I wonder how best to get Healing Spirit added to the Sorlock's spell list now...

[MrWesson22]

So, if you go hexblade tome pact and stop at 3, you don't have to sleep, but you only then have 1 other invocation to spend (assuming on AB). This leaves you without healing unless you pick that up from sorcerer, but going to divine soul sorcerer means you can't go shadow. So you either get healing or darkness/devils sight. To get both, you have to go 5 warlock for the 3rd invocation, correct? I don't see a problem.

[Mikal]

So, if you go hexblade tome pact and stop at 3, you don't have to sleep, but you only then have 1 other invocation to spend (assuming on AB). This leaves you without healing unless you pick that up from sorcerer, but going to divine soul sorcerer means you can't go shadow. So you either get healing or darkness/devils sight. To get both, you have to go 5 warlock for the 3rd invocation, correct? I don't see a problem.

Yup, if you wanted to go the hexblade/shadow route and do all that, you'd have to go at least Warlock 5.
Honestly, if you're going EB and AB route, hexblade is redundant, and celestial would be the better choice. You're better off using those sorcerer slots you get to fuel quickened EBs at that point.
Since you're tomelock anyway if you want to have Cha to hit and damage with a weapon, choose Shillelagh as one of your cantrips.

[mgshamster]

So if you're not using XGtE, then there's zero penalty for not taking a long rest. Meaning any race can do this and you don't even need Aspect of the Moon.

[Zene]

Way to cherry pick. You forgot the parts before and after that, which explicitly show that the rule you're quoting is regarding sleep deprivation. Which Aspect of the Moon negates.

To quote the entire thing (emphasis mine)


So... yeah. Nice attempt at twisting a small section of a quote into something else entirely.



It doesn't say that because you don't have to ever take a long rest. Long rests are never mandatory. The only drawbacks are not regaining long rest abilities, or sleep deprivation effects. You no longer suffer sleep deprivation effects because you no longer need to sleep.



Wrong.
You're left with the option of spending 8 short rests to charge magic slots every night, because you no longer suffer the effects of sleep deprivation because you no longer need to sleep, and the only drawbacks again, of no long rest are the lack of long rest recharges and sleep deprivation which, one more time you no longer suffer.


But that's the thing, the DM can't rule that because taking the section in its entirety shows that the rule is regarding sleep deprivation effects. Well the DM can... but it's completely taking both RAW and RAI and spitting on it, if they say they're doing it to follow the rule as it's "supposed to be". Zene was just being dishonest and cherrypicking the rule to make it sound like something else.

Wow dude, let’s hold off on the accusations of cherry-picking and dishonesty. Obviously you read that whole section as talking about sleep; and obviously I read the one section that has actual rules crunch talking about long rests meaning it can he interpreted to mean long rests. There’s no dishonesty here, I think we can have this discussion in good faith.

That said, I totally see where you’re coming from given the bookends on that section that refer to sleep. It’s probably just a case of bad editing; hopefully the RAI for the sentence I quoted is for it to mean sleep, and JC will tweet a correction about it to keep the folks that read it the way I did from using it as an excuse to squash this build.

But yeah as Easy Lee said, if your DM reads it the way I did, it’s easily fixed with a greater resto.

[Mikal]

Wow dude, let’s hold off on the accusations of cherry-picking and dishonesty.

You literally choose specific wording from a section, and used it without the full context to make it sound like the section meant something else, and then literally paraphrased other parts in a way that made it sound like your meaning was correct, when in fact it was the opposite.
That's not accusation. That's definition. As in the literal definition of cherry picking and dishonesty both.


Obviously you read that whole section as talking about sleep; and obviously I read the one section that has actual rules crunch talking about long rests meaning it can he interpreted to mean long rests. There’s no dishonesty here, I think we can have this discussion in good faith.

Yes. Because I'm looking at the actual rule, and not cherry picking it to prop up an incorrect statement. I.E. I'm not being dishonest or cherry picking.


That said, I totally see where you’re coming from given the bookends on that section that refer to sleep. It’s probably just a case of bad editing; hopefully the RAI for the sentence I quoted is for it to mean sleep, and JC will tweet a correction about it to keep the folks that read it the way I did from using it as an excuse to squash this build.

Yes. Because a rule section that says "Hey, use these rules for sleep deprivation, here are the rules for sleep deprivation, including saying further lack of sleep gives you these rules" totally is a case of bad editing and not rules that are meant to be used for sleep deprivation.

The only bad editing is the lack of looking at rule A (Aspect of the Moon), how it interacts with rule B (long rest/sleep dep), and mixes with rule C (sorcerer abilities). Alone and in a vacuum? They're fine. Together? They're a perfectly legal RAW combination, and RAI when putting all three together.

Does this mean I'd allow it in my game? No. I'd House Rule it to oblivion. However, that doesn't mean the combination itself is invalid by any means.


But yeah as Easy Lee said, if your DM reads it the way I did, it’s easily fixed with a greater resto.

Except of course you don't need it, since you don't need to take long rests anymore.

[samcifer]

Well, a level 6 version of this, sorc 3 / Warlock 3, can have effectively infinite uses of quicken, invisibility, misty step, shield, and the like. Stick Spell Sniper and Eldritch Spear on the build and you can do some stuff from very far away. I don't know if that's considered broken or not, but it definitely opens up some possibilities.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's possible to cast sorcerer spells with warlock spell slots and vice versa. That's quite a few spells to have on-hand at all times if so.

Correct. It says so in the multiclassing section of the phb

[samcifer]

Well, I'm now at Divine Soul 2 / Hexblade 2 Tiefling (the Dispater variation for Disguise Self and Invisibility) and since battles in my homebrew campaign tend to run 3 or 4 rounds, I wouldn't need a tone of SP, so I could do this only a little for more low level slots or more uses of Quicken.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, I'm now at Divine Soul 2 / Hexblade 2 Tiefling (the Dispater variation for Disguise Self and Invisibility) and since battles in my homebrew campaign tend to run 3 or 4 rounds, I wouldn't need a tone of SP, so I could do this only a little for more low level slots or more uses of Quicken.

It starts off slow, but promising. Infinite shield and cure wounds at tomelock 3 / divine soul Sorc 2 is certainly something, especially when combined with other spells and increased cantrip selection. It's easily worth the cost of lost spell progression.

By character level 12, when you have unlimited quickened dimension door and twinned Banishment, it gets silly. Consider that this character basically replicates the wizard capstone Signature Spells, but for his entire spell list below 6th level.

[Provo]

Yep, at level 12 you can get infinite level five AoA, mirror image, shield, and the concentration spell of your choice.

Toss on two levels of paladin for fun. Every turn you get a lvl 5 Smite, booming blade, and a quickened lvl 5 spell.

[mgshamster]

So in the Google+ group, the general consensus is that a lot of GMs would ban it, but they get really mad when you classify it as, "So you think it's ok for a GM to ban a legal character if they feel it's ridiculous."

There's also lots of argument on whether or not it's legal, and the twists and turns they're making are somewhat amusing.

For example, I claimed you could use AL Downtime to do [some downtime thing] and then use your sleeping hours to build up spell slots.

The counter was that downtime rules don't allow you to gain any additional benefits beyond what's written, and it's not written than you get a short or long rest during downtime.

The natural counter to that is if AL uses the new Sleep Deprivation rules, then spending more than 11 days of downtime at once will auto kill a PC due to exhaustion at DC 30+ Con Saves.

This was handwaved away as "ridiculous." Apparently, this is where the line is drawn, but it's perfectly ok to claim that spending 15 downtime days on Crafting does not allow for a single rest period during those days.

They seem to be very much against this character concept and will readily ban it, but are unable to come up with an AL Legal way to do it. The closest is that the DM is free to ban any rule that "seems" like it's against the rules.

[Klorox]

It’s gimmicky, but I like it. 😈

[krugaan]

So in the Google+ group, the general consensus is that a lot of GMs would ban it, but they get really mad when you classify it as, "So you think it's ok for a GM to ban a legal character if they feel it's ridiculous."

There's also lots of argument on whether or not it's legal, and the twists and turns they're making are somewhat amusing.

For example, I claimed you could use AL Downtime to do [some downtime thing] and then use your sleeping hours to build up spell slots.

The counter was that downtime rules don't allow you to gain any additional benefits beyond what's written, and it's not written than you get a short or long rest during downtime.

The natural counter to that is if AL uses the new Sleep Deprivation rules, then spending more than 11 days of downtime at once will auto kill a PC due to exhaustion at DC 30+ Con Saves.

This was handwaved away as "ridiculous." Apparently, this is where the line is drawn, but it's perfectly ok to claim that spending 15 downtime days on Crafting does not allow for a single rest period during those days.

They seem to be very much against this character concept and will readily ban it, but are unable to come up with an AL Legal way to do it. The closest is that the DM is free to ban any rule that "seems" like it's against the rules.

Live by the RAW, die by the RAW, lol.

It's obviously broken. I'm expecting them to errata some sort of "spell slot battery rule" limiting the maximum number of slots you get to the max that your level gives you on rest.

[Easy_Lee]

So in the Google+ group, the general consensus is that a lot of GMs would ban it, but they get really mad when you classify it as, "So you think it's ok for a GM to ban a legal character if they feel it's ridiculous."

There's also lots of argument on whether or not it's legal, and the twists and turns they're making are somewhat amusing.

For example, I claimed you could use AL Downtime to do [some downtime thing] and then use your sleeping hours to build up spell slots.

The counter was that downtime rules don't allow you to gain any additional benefits beyond what's written, and it's not written than you get a short or long rest during downtime.

The natural counter to that is if AL uses the new Sleep Deprivation rules, then spending more than 11 days of downtime at once will auto kill a PC due to exhaustion at DC 30+ Con Saves.

This was handwaved away as "ridiculous." Apparently, this is where the line is drawn, but it's perfectly ok to claim that spending 15 downtime days on Crafting does not allow for a single rest period during those days.

They seem to be very much against this character concept and will readily ban it, but are unable to come up with an AL Legal way to do it. The closest is that the DM is free to ban any rule that "seems" like it's against the rules.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah, that sounds about right. This strongly reminds me of 3.5e and its ridiculous but, usually, rules-legal gimmicks. WotC made good effort up until now, but it seems a really effective exploit finally snuck in.

[krugaan]

... wonder what kind of shenanigans you could pull with this plus catnap?

[mgshamster]

In the Google+ group, some GMs are willing to compromise. You can use this, but at the start of the adventure you're at standard "full" for your class(es). You can then use this exploit to increase your spell slots, but all of it must be done during the adventure.

As most adventures are on a time limit, this limits the number of spell slots you can create. To these GMs, it's ok to have extra, just not an absurd amount. Don't come to the game with over 9,000 spell slots expecting it to work.

As an AL Player and GM myself, I feel that this is a decent compromise.

[krugaan]

In the Google+ group, some GMs are willing to compromise. You can use this, but at the start of the adventure you're at standard "full" for your class(es). You can then use this exploit to increase your spell slots, but all of it must be done during the adventure.

As most adventures are on a time limit, this limits the number of spell slots you can create. To these GMs, it's ok to have extra, just not an absurd amount. Don't come to the game with over 9,000 spell slots expecting it to work.

As an AL Player and GM myself, I feel that this is a decent compromise.

I think so, although coffee lock with limited resources is still pretty stronk.

[8wGremlin]

The 5th level spell Greater Restoration is available to Divine Soul Sorcerers and removes one level of exhaustion.

Once you have 5th level spells you're good to go, as you can burn slots to get this.

[Zene]

Live by the RAW, die by the RAW, lol.

It's obviously broken. I'm expecting them to errata some sort of "spell slot battery rule" limiting the maximum number of slots you get to the max that your level gives you on rest.

Haha possibly, although the coffeelock build has been around for a while; this is just a new twist on it. If it gets popular enough they may take action.


You literally choose specific wording from a section, and used it without the full context to make it sound like the section meant something else, and then literally paraphrased other parts in a way that made it sound like your meaning was correct, when in fact it was the opposite.
That's not accusation. That's definition. As in the literal definition of cherry picking and dishonesty both.



Yes. Because I'm looking at the actual rule, and not cherry picking it to prop up an incorrect statement. I.E. I'm not being dishonest or cherry picking.



Yes. Because a rule section that says "Hey, use these rules for sleep deprivation, here are the rules for sleep deprivation, including saying further lack of sleep gives you these rules" totally is a case of bad editing and not rules that are meant to be used for sleep deprivation.

The only bad editing is the lack of looking at rule A (Aspect of the Moon), how it interacts with rule B (long rest/sleep dep), and mixes with rule C (sorcerer abilities). Alone and in a vacuum? They're fine. Together? They're a perfectly legal RAW combination, and RAI when putting all three together.

Does this mean I'd allow it in my game? No. I'd House Rule it to oblivion. However, that doesn't mean the combination itself is invalid by any means.



Except of course you don't need it, since you don't need to take long rests anymore.

Good lord. You just don’t know when to quit, do you? Even after I made it clear I wasn’t trying to distort your point or challenge your motives, you just keep on assuming the worst anyway.

If me pointing out the one sentence that directly contradicts your interpretation is dishonest cherry picking... well then you leaving it out in the first place was dishonest cherry picking. Yay! We’re both dishonest cherry pickers!

Oh shoot, is that why you’re so angry and defensive about this? Because you’re projecting?

Regardless, go ahead with your interpretation; it’s really not a big deal. If you run into DMs or players that don’t agree with your reading, do yourself a favor and don’t assume they’re all out to get you. Just calmly explain your point of view, listen to theirs, and maybe you’ll convince some of them.

[samcifer]

Hahahaha!

That is fantastic.

What about exhaustion with this Eldritch Evocation? Not clear on what happens regarding this.

[samcifer]

Except the only reasons to take a long rest are to sleep and refresh long rest abilities and technically sleep doesn't have anything mechanically imposed if missed unless you use the variant rule in Xanathars.

Or if your DM imposes exhaustion for lack of sleep or sleeping in armor like mine does.

[mgshamster]

Or if your DM imposes exhaustion for lack of sleep or sleeping in armor like mine does.

Those are the new variant rules in XGtE.

[Easy_Lee]

Those are the new variant rules in XGtE.

No kidding? Sleeping in armor is now a problem? I mean, for a normal person it might be a problem. But that's harsh on heavy armor users. Meanwhile, Mage Armor is one of the many spells our coffeelock can keep up at all times, and he's rules-legal. It's criminal.

[Mikal]

Or if your DM imposes exhaustion for lack of sleep or sleeping in armor like mine does.

Well aspect of the moon takes care of it

[mgshamster]

No kidding? Sleeping in armor is now a problem? I mean, for a normal person it might be a problem. But that's harsh on heavy armor users. Meanwhile, Mage Armor is one of the many spells our coffeelock can keep up at all times, and he's rules-legal. It's criminal.

Well, they are optional rules. :)

Sleeping in Armor. If you sleep in medium or heavy armor, regain 1/4 HD (min 1) instead of the normal amount. Do not heal 1 level of exhaustion.

Going without a Long Rest. For each day you skip a long rest, make a DC 10 Con Save. Failure means you suffer one level of exhaustion. For each consecutive day you skip a long rest, the DC increases by 5. The DC resets to 10 as soon as you take a long rest.

[Malifice]

What's hilarious is people assume the player determines what does or does not count as a long rest or a short rest.

4 hours of rest then 4 x 1 hour breaks IMG is a long rest, I don't care how you spin it.

[krugaan]

What's hilarious is people assume the player determines what does or does not count as a long rest or a short rest.

4 hours of rest then 4 x 1 hour breaks IMG is a long rest, I don't care how you spin it.

1 hour of rest, one round of dash, 1 hour of rest, 1 round of dash...

Although, to be honest, the conversion of spell slots to points and vice versa would probably be enough to count as strenuous activity.

[melvinmelon123]

What's hilarious is people assume the player determines what does or does not count as a long rest or a short rest.

4 hours of rest then 4 x 1 hour breaks IMG is a long rest, I don't care how you spin it.

You are free to houserule your own game however you like, but I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion. This is a thread theorycrafting a character that functions within the rules of the game. You can never be forced to take a long rest, you have to willingly do it with full knowledge. You could just as easily say "I don't allow spellcasters in my game so I find it hilarious that people are even thinking about this".

[RickAllison]

What's hilarious is people assume the player determines what does or does not count as a long rest or a short rest.

4 hours of rest then 4 x 1 hour breaks IMG is a long rest, I don't care how you spin it.

Well, if a DM tried that then the CoffeeLock could just take an hour to do some training in the middle of it all. With the couple of minutes that are spent switching around points and slots, you would be ineligible for a long rest.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, if a DM tried that then the CoffeeLock could just take an hour to do some training in the middle of it all. With the couple of minutes that are spent switching around points and slots, you would be ineligible for a long rest.

The standard coffee lock will be taking bonus actions for about a minute to mold his spell slots between rests. That may be good enough to negate the long rest by itself. Assuming it isn't, just cast a cantrip which should almost certainly negate it. Which cantrip? Prestidigitation to heat and flavor your coffee.

[RickAllison]

In another thread, an interesting application of this combo reared its head, and I kind of like it. Life Transference is a Cleric and wizard spell in XGtE that has the user suffer 4d8 necrotic and heals a target for twice that amount with a Twinned version, you would have the Coffeelock effectively healing 4X the suffered damage between two targets, and IIRC nothing prevents the caster from using it on themselves. While it is too SP-expensive for normal use, a CoffeeLock with all those excess points in storage can be quite the effective healer.

[Easy_Lee]

In another thread, an interesting application of this combo reared its head, and I kind of like it. Life Transference is a Cleric and wizard spell in XGtE that has the user suffer 4d8 necrotic and heals a target for twice that amount with a Twinned version, you would have the Coffeelock effectively healing 4X the suffered damage between two targets, and IIRC nothing prevents the caster from using it on themselves. While it is too SP-expensive for normal use, a CoffeeLock with all those excess points in storage can be quite the effective healer.

Is that on the Divine Soul Sorcerer spell list?

[Zene]

Is that on the Divine Soul Sorcerer spell list?

Yes, but two targets (enemy to be harmed and friend to be healed) means you can’t twin it unfortunately :(

[melvinmelon123]

Yes, but two targets (enemy to be harmed and friend to be healed) means you can’t twin it unfortunately :(

There aren't two targets. You target one creature, and then you take damage and they heal for twice that amount. You could twin it to target two creatures, while still taking same the same damage.

[Zene]

There aren't two targets. You target one creature, and then you take damage and they heal for twice that amount. You could twin it to target two creatures, while still taking same the same damage.

Oh! I totally misread that. You are correct, awesome trick

[Easy_Lee]

With that, this character is convincingly the best healer. This is getting pretty bad. The sheer versatility of this build is astonishing.

Infinite Blink + Mirror Image + Shield + False Life + Absorb Elements: best defense
Infinite Dimension Door: best evasion
Infinite heals and buffs: best support
Infinite twinned Hold or Banishment: best control
Infinite empowered lightning bolts, quickened EB spam: best DPR
Infinite greater invisibility and subtle nukes: best assassin

I think the only thing this character can't break is saving throws.

[Zene]

Imagine travel. You can go several days between encounters.

In the current AL season, my character would have accumulated hundreds of slots by now considering our rate of encounters.

I played a Lock 3 / Sorc X through Storm King's Thunder, and it was ridiculous.

DM: Ok moving by airship, the trip will take about 20 days.
Wizard: Sweet, I'll be making a copy of my spellbook.
Bard: Ok, I'll use the time to work on building relationships with the crew.
Me: <Starts doing math, realizes about a minute into it that I'll be stepping off the ship with more spell slots than I could ever possibly burn through before hitting the next level, no need to finish the math... laughs>

[melvinmelon123]

With that, this character is convincingly the best healer. This is getting pretty bad. The sheer versatility of this build is astonishing.

Infinite Blink + Mirror Image + Shield + False Life + Absorb Elements: best defense
Infinite Dimension Door: best evasion
Infinite heals and buffs: best support
Infinite twinned Hold or Banishment: best control
Infinite empowered lightning bolts, quickened EB spam: best DPR
Infinite greater invisibility and subtle nukes: best assassin

I think the only thing this character can't break is saving throws.

Well you only need Warlock 3/Sorcerer 9 for access to everything. So you could go 6 levels of Paladin for +5 to every saving throw, plus infinite 4th level divine smites (which you can use 3 per round (4 with haste) with extra attack and then Quickened Booming Blade, giving you higher DPR than EB spam).

[Zene]

With that, this character is convincingly the best healer. This is getting pretty bad. The sheer versatility of this build is astonishing.

Infinite Blink + Mirror Image + Shield + False Life + Absorb Elements: best defense
Infinite Dimension Door: best evasion
Infinite heals and buffs: best support
Infinite twinned Hold or Banishment: best control
Infinite empowered lightning bolts, quickened EB spam: best DPR
Infinite greater invisibility and subtle nukes: best assassin

I think the only thing this character can't break is saving throws.

Heh there's a lot of semi-broken stuff coming out of XGE, but I think this is my favorite so far :)

I will humbly submit, for the Best Defense, Armor of Agathys is quite a bit better than False Life. In theory you could get slightly more THP from False Life, but it's a maximum of three more total regardless of what level it's cast at. But AoA has the reactive damage. Oh also, you can add Aid to that equation.

So just curious, what's the actual build at this point? Hexblade patron tomelock 3, Divine Soul X? Twin and quicken, picking up Subtle at DS 10?

One of the things that I love/hate about sorcerers, is in theory they could do all kinds of ridiculous things, but then once you start actually building the character you have to make some really hard choices... the limited metamagics (and inability to switch them out when leveling) and spell choices make every sorc a tough optimization puzzle.

[melvinmelon123]

So just curious, what's the actual build at this point? Hexblade patron tomelock 3, Divine Soul X? Twin and quicken, picking up Subtle at DS 10?


I'm fairly convinced that Divine Soul 9/Hexblade Tomelock 3/something else is the best build. If you go higher in Warlock you get an extra invocation or two, but none that are incredibly useful since you aren't blade pact, and you get higher level pact magic which is useless since you have infinite spells once you have a few weeks travel time. (Side note: If anyone wants to play this at a table I would recommend only doing the Sorlock Shuffle on nights when the rest of the party is also recovering with a long rest. If you keep it to just adventuring days like this you will still end up at infinite spells, but it is a slow burn instead of the other way.) Going above Sorcerer 9 gets you spell slots you can't use, extra sorcerer points cap that doesn't matter, and 5 more spells known. You could go to 10 and get an extra metamagic if there is one you really want, but twinned/quicken are the obvious winners at level 3.

[Zene]

I'm fairly convinced that Divine Soul 9/Hexblade Tomelock 3/something else is the best build. If you go higher in Warlock you get an extra invocation or two, but none that are incredibly useful since you aren't blade pact, and you get higher level pact magic which is useless since you have infinite spells once you have a few weeks travel time. (Side note: If anyone wants to play this at a table I would recommend only doing the Sorlock Shuffle on nights when the rest of the party is also recovering with a long rest. If you keep it to just adventuring days like this you will still end up at infinite spells, but it is a slow burn instead of the other way.) Going above Sorcerer 9 gets you spell slots you can't use, extra sorcerer points cap that doesn't matter, and 5 more spells known. You could go to 10 and get an extra metamagic if there is one you really want, but twinned/quicken are the obvious winners at level 3.

Great points. I do think taking Sorc 10 could be worth it for the additional 5th-level spell known and metamagic--subtle especially opens lots of doors. (And then if you know you're playing to 20, Wish might be worth sticking around for). But yeah with 7-8 more levels to play with, you can do some really amazing things by adding another class.

Paladin is definitely a great choice.

Just some brainstorming here:

-Another way to go is, with a huge/infinite battery of 1-5th spell slots, having more spell choices to spend them on could be a good fit. Wizard has the biggest list, and some neat bonuses depending on subclass. It is MAD, but no more MAD than Paladin. There is, however, a good amount of overlap with the sorcerer and warlock spell lists; also if you went Tomelock and got the ritual book, that's even more overlap.

-Lore bard might be a stronger choice. A moderately different spell list, Cha caster so it's SAD, ability to snatch the best spells from other lists at 6, plus a few other goodies (cutting words, jack of all trades, expertise).

-Alternately, if you wanted to up your EB blasting capabilities, you could go Fighter 2 for Action Surge, and possibly Assassin 3 for surprise round auto-crits.

[melvinmelon123]

Great points. I do think taking Sorc 10 could be worth it for the metamagic; subtle especially opens lots of doors. But yeah with 7-8 more levels to play with, you can do some really amazing things.

Paladin is definitely a great choice.

Just some brainstorming here:

-Another way to go is, with a huge/infinite battery of 1-5th spell slots, having more spell choices to spend them on could be a good fit. Wizard has the biggest list, and some neat bonuses depending on subclass. It is MAD, but no more MAD than Paladin. There is, however, a good amount of overlap with the sorcerer and warlock spell lists; also if you went Tomelock and got the ritual book, that's even more overlap.

-Lore bard might be a stronger choice. A moderately different spell list, Cha caster so it's SAD, ability to snatch the best spells from other lists at 6, plus a few other goodies (cutting words, jack of all trades, expertise).

-Alternately, if you wanted to up your EB blasting capabilities, you could go Fighter 2 for Action Surge, and possibly Assassin 3 for surprise round auto-crits.

I like Lore Bard a lot. Having ribbons is great to go along with your maxed Charisma; it means that not only are you ultra effective in combat you can do the out of combat things too. Magical Secrets at 6 is perfect for this build.

Sorcerer 9/Warlock 3/Paladin 6/Fighter 2 does 28d8 in just smites and booming blade alone, then you add in your Cha and weapon damage and you obliterate anything on turn 1.

The great thing is that you have flexibility (besides the MADness of multiclassing in general) with what you can do. Your third class can fill whatever role you like in the build since it is so solid with its base.

[Easy_Lee]

Finishing warlock may be good to get the most out of Book of Ancient Secrets. You can't afford this with just three levels of warlock, agonizing EB is better and Book only lets you ritual cast spells of level up to half your warlock level.

Get both Sorc and warlock to ten and you have three meta magics, have unlimited access to 5th level spells from two lists, and can cast all of the rituals.

[mgshamster]

Now taking bets on the next errata:

Created sorc spell slots go away after a long rest or 24 hours, whichever comes first.

[Easy_Lee]

Now taking bets on the next errata:

Created sorc spell slots go away after a long rest or 24 hours, whichever comes first.

Or: "You may only create spell points from spell slots that regenerate on a long rest."

[Klorox]

Finishing warlock may be good to get the most out of Book of Ancient Secrets. You can't afford this with just three levels of warlock, agonizing EB is better and Book only lets you ritual cast spells of level up to half your warlock level.

Get both Sorc and warlock to ten and you have three meta magics, have unlimited access to 5th level spells from two lists, and can cast all of the rituals.

IDK, if you’re gonna stay out a 20 level build, they’re all casting levels (including sorcerer), and you don’t have Wish, I’m not loving it.

[RSP]

Throwing this in there as well, for the "I'd just call 8 hours of short tests a long rest" crowd. Per JC:

"The intent is that you can't take a short rest and a long rest at the same time. #DnD https://twitter.com/swindxgm/status/750439950210961408 …"

I believe there are some small abuses you can come up with if you can overlap Rests. Though certainly none as grand as the coffeelock.

[Easy_Lee]

IDK, if you’re gonna stay out a 20 level build, they’re all casting levels (including sorcerer), and you don’t have Wish, I’m not loving it.

Flexible casting only allows you to create spell slots up to 5th level. The coffeelock never takes a long rest, so he'd only ever get one casting of spell slots of level 6+. Since you never recover anything that only comes back on a long rest, it's actually a surprising limitation.


Throwing this in there as well, for the "I'd just call 8 hours of short tests a long rest" crowd. Per JC:

"The intent is that you can't take a short rest and a long rest at the same time. #DnD https://twitter.com/swindxgm/status/750439950210961408 …"

I believe there are some small abuses you can come up with if you can overlap Rests. Though certainly none as grand as the coffeelock.

Easily resolved by taking seven in a row then making sure you do something that definitely doesn't count as light activity, even if you had to intentionally damage yourself. But honestly, if your DM doesn't want you to do this then you ain't doing it regardless.

[Zene]

Finishing warlock may be good to get the most out of Book of Ancient Secrets. You can't afford this with just three levels of warlock, agonizing EB is better and Book only lets you ritual cast spells of level up to half your warlock level.

Get both Sorc and warlock to ten and you have three meta magics, have unlimited access to 5th level spells from two lists, and can cast all of the rituals.

Good point. I tried a hypothetical build with only 2 invocations; it didn’t work without making kind of awkward sacrifices to some of the key benefits of the build. I like the 10/10 split a little better in the end game , and progression is smoother.


Now taking bets on the next errata:

Created sorc spell slots go away after a long rest or 24 hours, whichever comes first.

Eh, I think it’s safe. They never did that to the old coffeelock; and while this new one can do some very cool things, it also requires 2-3 invocations dedicated to it and not progressing much past 5th level spells. Probably not worth a further errata

[Mikal]

What's hilarious is people assume the player determines what does or does not count as a long rest or a short rest.

4 hours of rest then 4 x 1 hour breaks IMG is a long rest, I don't care how you spin it.

Except the rule states it's never mandatory to take a long rest, so you as the player can state it was a short rest. Especially as you're casting/using slots, then recharging them every hour.

[Vaz]

Or: "You may only create spell points from spell slots that regenerate on a long rest."

All spell slots are equal, just that some are more equal than others.

[krugaan]

All spell slots are equal, just that some are more equal than others.

That's just slot shaming.

[XmonkTad]

Eh, I think it’s safe. They never did that to the old coffeelock; and while this new one can do some very cool things, it also requires 2-3 invocations dedicated to it and not progressing much past 5th level spells. Probably not worth a further errata

Pretty much. Its been years since the coffee first started to flow, and that was before the first errata came out. If they wanted to fix it, they would have. I never really thought the coffee lock was overpowered, since it never got 6+ level spells, so while it might bring a lot of small spells to the table, it never gets to disintegrate anything.

[Meta]

I would go the paladin/fighter MC as well. Adds some burst damage and the saving throw buff is great. For a level 20 build you're competing with some heavy hitters. You're already going to be able to grind out most foes, so buff the saving throws to not just lose to save or suck, and the burst damage to actually threaten them before they get a level 8 spell or whatever off seems more valuable.

[Arguus]

With that, this character is convincingly the best healer. This is getting pretty bad. The sheer versatility of this build is astonishing.

Infinite Blink + Mirror Image + Shield + False Life + Absorb Elements: best defense
Infinite Dimension Door: best evasion
Infinite heals and buffs: best support
Infinite twinned Hold or Banishment: best control
Infinite empowered lightning bolts, quickened EB spam: best DPR
Infinite greater invisibility and subtle nukes: best assassin

I think the only thing this character can't break is saving throws.


To be still better.

Divine Soul 17/ Tomelock 3


1) Divine Soul pick Wish: Duplicating Simulacrum


2) Twin Empowered Dragon's Breath (Familiar and Divine Soul or allies). The Simulacrum duplicate the trick. Yes, It's 4 Empowered Dragon's Breath per round (It's a ****ing high damage).

3) Subtle Silence+ Mage Slayer feat + Sentinel feat can be devasting against spellcasters. Subtle Gear is potent too.

4) If you want a good healing = Twin Empowered Life Transference (Simulacrum's healing), or Simulacrum's Quicken Revify or Quicken Death Ward.

5) Also, Wish: Duplicating Contingency Spell. Revify Spell + Contingency Spell can be really good.

6) Twin Greater Invisibility + Subtle Enemie Abound. (OMG, It's savagery)


Twin Empowered Life Transcerence + Empowered Healing can heal more than 250 hp.

[melvinmelon123]

To be still better.

Divine Soul 17/ Tomelock 3


1) Divine Soul pick Wish: Duplicating Simulacrum


2) Twin Empowered Dragon's Breath (Familiar and Divine Soul or allies). The Simulacrum duplicate the trick. Yes, It's 4 Empowered Dragon's Breath per round (It's a ****ing high damage).

3) Subtle Silence+ Mage Slayer feat + Sentinel feat can be devasting against spellcasters. Subtle Gear is potent too.

4) If you want a good healing = Twin Empowered Life Transference (Simulacrum's healing), or Simulacrum's Quicken Revify or Quicken Death Ward.

5) Also, Wish: Duplicating Contingency Spell. Revify Spell + Contingency Spell can be really good.

6) Twin Greater Invisibility + Subtle Enemie Abound. (OMG, It's savagery)


Twin Empowered Life Transcerence + Empowered Healing can heal more than 250 hp.

Since this build only lets you cast one ninth level spell ever, I guess it is the ultimate RP for Wish.

[Arguus]

Since this build only lets you cast one ninth level spell ever, I guess it is the ultimate RP for Wish.
Yes, but The Simulacrum hasn't duration(Until Dispelled) and Contingency Spell has 10 days duration. You could cast it previously.
Right?

[Raktus]

I rather like combining this build idea with this other one that's also based around a Hexblade Sorcerer
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?596310-GUIDE-The-Sorlock-%96-Guide-to-the-tormented-divine-soul-with-Xanathar-s-Divine-Soul(17)-Hexblade(3)

[Draco4472]

These seem awesome builds, I might use some in the future for AL.

[Zene]

So this thread has inspired me to make a new version of my previous AL sorclock, a Yuan-Ti GOO Chain Pact Warlock 3 / Dragon Sorcerer 16. It was an EB blaster build, so I'm going to focus the new one along the same lines. But with some massive improvements thanks to XGE.

For anyone interested, here's the new build:


Half-elf with point buy, 17 Cha 16 Con 16 Dex
Starts as Sorcerer (Divine Soul), for con save proficiency.
Hexblade dip for 2 levels: Repelling Blast and Agonizing Blast invocations.
Then takes Divine Soul at least to 9, but possibly all the way to 17, before taking the last warlock level (which will be Pact of the Tome, and the Aspect of the Moon invocation). The reasoning is I don't want to slow down sorcerer spell progression or access to wish any more than absolutely necessary; and I'm confident that I'll be able to do the coffeelock 8-short-rest thing --whenever it's not smarter to just long rest and refill the full spell tree and sorc point pool-- and pass any con saves for exhaustion, or just use Greater Restoration from L9 onward.
Metamagics: Quicken and Twin, then Subtle, then Heightened
Feats: Elven Accuracy, Warcaster, Lucky, Alert
Key Hexblade spells:

Eldritch Blast,
Shield,
Armor of Agathys,
eventually Hex and Misty Step

Key Divine Soul spells:

Absorb Elements
Aid
Death Ward
Greater Invisibility (until the Cloak of Invisibility becomes available)
Greater Restoration
Wish
Other spells I'll probably take:
Guidance
Scorching Ray
Spirit Guardians
Bestow Curse
Geas
Mass Suggestion
Crown of Stars

AL quirks:

No need to spend ASIs on charisma, since I'll be able to run Amber Temple in T2 to bump Cha to 22; then get a tome to bump it to 24 in T3.
Magic Items will eventually be:

a Broom of Flying,
a Staff of Swarming Insects (until Greater Invisibility comes online at DS7),
a Staff of Power,
a Rod of the Pact Keeper +3,
and eventually a Cloak of Invisibility --all "inherited" (i.e. traded) from Sorclock Sr.;
as well as a +3 Shield and
(if I can find it) +x medium armor.




Based on my experience with Sorclock Sr, this will be a blast (heh) to play from L5 on up.

[Malifice]

. You can never be forced to take a long rest, you have to willingly do it with full knowledge.

Source for this?

8 hours of nothing more than light activity is a long rest whether you will it to happen or otherwise.

Of course resting is DM dependent (like everything) in any event.

The DM simply tells you 4 hours of rest plus 1 hour rest (dash for round) 1 hour rest (dash for a round) etc is a long rest.

What kind of ******** would actually try this in play, and what kind of DM must they have to think they could even try it?

[Mikal]

Source for this?

Xanathar's in the ruleset about lack of sleep penalty. One of the first sentences "It is never mandatory to take a long rest".



8 hours of nothing more than light activity is a long rest whether you will it to happen or otherwise.

Unless you choose to make it 8 short rests, which is your prerogative.


Of course resting is DM dependent (like everything) in any event.

The DM simply tells you 4 hours of rest plus 1 hour rest (dash for round) 1 hour rest (dash for a round) etc is a long rest.

Except it isn't.


What kind of ******** would actually try this in play, and what kind of DM must they have to think they could even try it?

What kind of ******** would call players ******** for trying this in play, one could ask.

[Malifice]

What kind of ******** would call players ******** for trying this in play, one could ask.

Every single DM.

Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.

[Raktus]

Every single DM.

Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.

Player's using the rules as written are not bad players. If WotC didn't want us to do things like this, then there should be an errata made for it. If there eventually is one, I'm sure threads like this wont get past the first page as people will be informed about it. Until then, it's up to the players to try this and up to the DM's of individual games to decide to house rule against the rules.

Seriously, there is no reason for a forum censor to show up in polite discussion. This is about a game we all come to have fun with, can we all remain civil? :-)

[Malifice]

Player's using the rules as written are not bad players. If WotC didn't want us to do things like this, then there should be an errata made for it. If there eventually is one, I'm sure threads like this wont get past the first page as people will be informed about it

Players being gamist ***** and attempting to 'exploit' or 'game' the rules are bad players. This is a cooperative game after all.

Players whinge when DMs make rulings but then try and exploit rules loopholes without blinking.

If this kind of thing seriously flies at your table we're playing very different games. Your DM needs a taking to as well.

IMG your PC attempting to game the rest mechanic just doesn't get the benefits of a rest of any kind. It happens the once.

[Easy_Lee]

Every single DM.

Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.

The problem with absolute statements like this is they're never universal. I'm a DM and I think this build is hilarious.

The DM can do anything. If you can't figure out how to challenge a player whose only gimmick is infinite spell slots, you need to be more creative.

[melvinmelon123]

Every single DM.

Seriously. Try it (4 hours rest then 1 hours rest and a round of dashing x4) and see how it flies.

It's just bull**** attempted gaming of the rest mechanic by bad players. You'd be flat out booted from my table for even suggesting it.

You are free to make up rules as a DM whenever you want a your table. I don't think berating people and calling others bad players is helping anything though. This build is fully AL legal, so anyone who goes to AL can use it freely as those DMs don't have the authority to make house rules.

[Finney]

I can't imagine the DM that I play with regularly allowing this sort of extreme munchkin gameplay, since I don't think this build even qualifies as optimization - it's just trying to break the game in my opinion.

While it may be AL "legal" because it obeys RAW (but certainly not RAF), I imagine it would irritate (never a good idea) a lot of AL DMs and cause them to add more foes to encounters to keep things challenging for the group.

[Malifice]

You are free to make up rules as a DM whenever you want a your table. I don't think berating people and calling others bad players is helping anything though. This build is fully AL legal, so anyone who goes to AL can use it freely as those DMs don't have the authority to make house rules.

AL legal who cares?

I'm an AL DM. Wouldn't work in my games. Your rest would count as a long rest. Done.

Alternatively your midnight spellcasting draws the attention of a random encounter. Roll initiative. That keeps happening till you get the picture.

DM has final say on rests mate. Not the players.

Game the system and the DM games it right back. And we always win.

Always.

[Malifice]

For what it's worth you can generally expect a short rest around every 2nd encounter and a long rest every 6 or so encounters as a baseline.

Feel free to convert warlock slots to SP and back within that paradigm.

Try and game it and 'random' encounters happen, your rest gets interrupted via nightmares, nothing happens or it counts as something else (a single short rest perhaps due to your broken nights activity and all night spellcasting every hour or so).

Eventually you'll catch on and we'll be sweet from then on.

You also get a stern look if you try this stuff at my table. That doesn't work, you get politely told to quit gaming the system because its not welcome. That doesn't work you get removed for being disruptive.

As DM I reserve the right to manage and police the adventuring day with DM oversight. It's central to my job in fact (it directly ties into class balance and encounter challenge). It's what DMs do.

[Meta]

The problem with absolute statements like this is they're never universal. I'm a DM and I think this build is hilarious.

The DM can do anything. If you can't figure out how to challenge a player whose only gimmick is infinite spell slots, you need to be more creative.

To be fair, you've taken both sides of the issue now, also saying things like "we did it folks, we broke it." So which is it? Is the build busted or a one trick pony?

[8wGremlin]

For what it's worth you can generally expect a short rest around every 2nd encounter and a long rest every 6 or so encounters as a baseline.

Feel free to convert warlock slots to SP and back within that paradigm.

Try and game it and 'random' encounters happen, your rest gets interrupted via nightmares, nothing happens or it counts as something else (a single short rest perhaps due to your broken nights activity and all night spellcasting every hour or so).

Eventually you'll catch on and we'll be sweet from then on.

You also get a stern look if you try this stuff at my table. That doesn't work, you get politely told to quit gaming the system because its not welcome. That doesn't work you get removed for being disruptive.

As DM I reserve the right to manage and police the adventuring day with DM oversight. It's central to my job in fact (it directly ties into class balance and encounter challenge). It's what DMs do.


How very interesting, you also do know that people have had their AL DM revoked for less, don't you.

PSA:

The job of AL GM is to run the dungeons that have been allowed by AL, the way AL dictates, to ensure that everyone enjoys the game and the hobby.

An AL GM should hold the rules as they are, and additional AL rules as sacrosanct, if they think the rules are wrong then they should seek out a senior GM and get a ruling on them, and these will be passed up the AL chain, to be taken into account.

AL GMs are not allowed to homebrew, or change the rules as they see fit, and as a player you are allowed to make official complaints as well as well as ask a senior ref for a ruling.

[Malifice]

{Scrubbed}

[melvinmelon123]

To be fair, you've taken both sides of the issue now, also saying things like "we did it folks, we broke it." So which is it? Is the build busted or a one trick pony?

Well, it's both. The game wasn't designed to have infinite spells so it breaks the basic tenets of 5th. But it also is limited because you would never get anything above fifth level spells and you would never have access to any long rest features.

[melvinmelon123]

{Scrubbed}

I'm not sure why you are being so abrasive about all of this. No one on this forum is ever going to show up to one of your tables, so it will never affect you. If people want to theorycraft, let them theorycraft. And if they want to play this build for real, that is between them and their DM. When you pop into this thread every so often just to berate other users you don't add anything of value to the thread.

[Malifice]

I'm not sure why you are being so abrasive about all of this. No one on this forum is ever going to show up to one of your tables, so it will never affect you. If people want to theorycraft, let them theorycraft. And if they want to play this build for real, that is between them and their DM. When you pop into this thread every so often just to berate other users you don't add anything of value to the thread.

Mate I'm cool with theory crafting. My point was just that it likely wouldn't hold up in any game with a real DM.

At which point I was called out for 'houseruling' or whatever.

[Vaz]

At which point I was called out for 'houseruling' or whatever.

You are though?

[Malifice]

You are though?

Random encounters are houseruling now?

Rulings (4+1+1+1+1 doesn't count as 5 discrete rests, but just the one) are houseruling now?

Policing the adventuring day is houseruling?

I'm the DM. You're the player. You don't get to game the system with impunity.

Cry all you want but thems the apples. Always has and always will be.

[Vaz]

{Scrubbed}

[Malifice]

{Scrubbed}

Hope the abuse was worth it mate

The rules don't allow it. Come to any table and see for yourself what happens.

[Vaz]

Hope the abuse was worth it mate

The rules don't allow it. Come to any table and see for yourself what happens.

I mean you've had plenty of time to prove why it doesnt work through the rules, but you're choosing not to.

{Scrubbed}

[Mikal]

Hope the abuse was worth it mate

The rules don't allow it. Come to any table and see for yourself what happens.

Great. We've quoted the rules which do allow it.
Please show us the rules which say it doesn't.

[Easy_Lee]

To be fair, you've taken both sides of the issue now, also saying things like "we did it folks, we broke it." So which is it? Is the build busted or a one trick pony?

Both.

It's broken in terms of other players. This build invalidates many others. But the DM can do anything so, in terms of challenge, nothing really can be broken. For instance, the DM could throw the player's exact build back at him.

This character doesn't break the math or action economy like the 3.5e builds of yore. But it's able to use its best stuff all day.

The DM can always raise the difficulty and so should be unaffected. Munchkins hurt not the DM, but other players. This build doesn't have to be munchkin-y as long as it's played to benefit, rather than overshadow, the party.

[croftstr]

Both.

It's broken in terms of other players. This build invalidates many others. But the DM can do anything so, in terms of challenge, nothing really can be broken. For instance, the DM could throw the player's exact build back at him.

This character doesn't break the math or action economy like the 3.5e builds of yore. But it's able to use its best stuff all day.

The DM can always raise the difficulty and so should be unaffected. Munchkins hurt not the DM, but other players. This build doesn't have to be munchkin-y as long as it's played to benefit, rather than overshadow, the party.

I think this is well said and leads me to one question that hasn't been addressed much: how would you roleplay this out? Any other thoughts on what constantly keeps you awake and meddling with your innate magical abilities? Besides coffee of course :)?

[Mikal]

I think this is well said and leads me to one question that hasn't been addressed much: how would you roleplay this out? Any other thoughts on what constantly keeps you awake and meddling with your innate magical abilities? Besides coffee of course :)?

Well if you go the most optimal Aspect of the Moon route... you've beseeched your Patron to grant you ultimate power. They did so by taking away your ability to sleep. As you spent countless nights trying to figure out how this aids you, you started testing your Patron-granted magic in relation to your ancestral gifts... and found a way to pervert both together into service of a greater whole.

After discovering it, you spend your evenings meditating, pulling power from your patron, and ensnaring it within your own magical reservoir. Perhaps your patron did not realize the gift that they granted to you, and because of the contract must continue providing it despite it potentially turning you from tool to weapon... a weapon that could be used against it.

Or perhaps the patron knows exactly what it is doing feeding you so much power. After all, the greater the height, the longer the fall...

All dependent on the actual patron and the Sorlocks relation with them, but that's one way to flavor it.

[Easy_Lee]

I think this is well said and leads me to one question that hasn't been addressed much: how would you roleplay this out? Any other thoughts on what constantly keeps you awake and meddling with your innate magical abilities? Besides coffee of course :)?

Personally, I'd play it as a humble, soft-spoken human with the Alert feat who specialized in supporting the party. There are a few reasons for this:

Alert mitigates the character's most likely cause of death: surprise
It's almost impossible to hate someone who constantly buffs and heals you.

This is what I mean when I say munchkin builds only hurt the party when they overshadow other players. This build is powerful, but also limited in that it's never casting the strongest spells and has a limited selection of spells known. Along with obvious choices like heals and eldritch blast, choose the spells your party needs most. Do that and it will be hard for even the DM to hate you.

[Vaz]

I think this is well said and leads me to one question that hasn't been addressed much: how would you roleplay this out? Any other thoughts on what constantly keeps you awake and meddling with your innate magical abilities? Besides coffee of course :)?
Cocaine. Or Speed.

[mgshamster]

How very interesting, you also do know that people have had their AL DM revoked for less, don't you.

PSA:

The job of AL GM is to run the dungeons that have been allowed by AL, the way AL dictates, to ensure that everyone enjoys the game and the hobby.

An AL GM should hold the rules as they are, and additional AL rules as sacrosanct, if they think the rules are wrong then they should seek out a senior GM and get a ruling on them, and these will be passed up the AL chain, to be taken into account.

AL GMs are not allowed to homebrew, or change the rules as they see fit, and as a player you are allowed to make official complaints as well as well as ask a senior ref for a ruling.

Really?

Out of curiosity, are.you speaking of AL from previous editions? I ask, because the rules for DMs as stated by WOTC seem counter to what you're claiming here.

This line in particular:

"It is okay to make considerable changes or engage in improvisation, so long as you maintain the original spirit of what’s written."

That line seems to suggest that it is ok to improvise and make changes without having to consult a senior GM. In fact, nothing in the AL DMG says anything about having to consult a senior GM for anything.

Nothing in the document suggests that a DM has to hold the rules as sacrosanct or any synonym thereof. It does say that the GM can adjudicate and make a rulings call as they see fit.

I'm happy to be wrong about this, but I just don't see it from my reading of the AL DMG. That's why I think your ideas come from a previous AL edition (I could be wrong on that, too).

[XmonkTad]

I think this is well said and leads me to one question that hasn't been addressed much: how would you roleplay this out? Any other thoughts on what constantly keeps you awake and meddling with your innate magical abilities? Besides coffee of course :)?

What, now you need MORE than "likes coffee?" You can roleplay a dwarf with nothing more than a Scottish accent and a love of ale!

Personally, I always liked the idea of holding such huge amounts of magical energy causing a huge mental burden. After all, you're pulling your patrons power from wherever-they-are into your reality, and holding it in your blood/head in a slightly complicated ritual that prevents you from properly sleeping. If you remember binders from 3.5, I feel like you'd be taking on the personality of your patron as you draw more of them into yourself. What starts off as "this guy is just a bit irritable and withdrawn from the no-sleep" turns into "this guy is clearly possessed and getting to the point where he's too far gone to stop and see what he's become."

Sure, a warlock being influenced by his patron is a tale-as-old-as-time. But it's a good one!

[Easy_Lee]

What, now you need MORE than "likes coffee?" You can roleplay a dwarf with nothing more than a Scottish accent and a love of ale!

Personally, I always liked the idea of holding such huge amounts of magical energy causing a huge mental burden. After all, you're pulling your patrons power from wherever-they-are into your reality, and holding it in your blood/head in a slightly complicated ritual that prevents you from properly sleeping. If you remember binders from 3.5, I feel like you'd be taking on the personality of your patron as you draw more of them into yourself. What starts off as "this guy is just a bit irritable and withdrawn from the no-sleep" turns into "this guy is clearly possessed and getting to the point where he's too far gone to stop and see what he's become."

Sure, a warlock being influenced by his patron is a tale-as-old-as-time. But it's a good one!

Your patron need not know about you. An interesting way to play this would be with a fiend warlock / divine soul sorcerer. You draw power from hell into yourself, then convert it to divine magic. Your character fully understands the thin line between good and evil, knowing that a small change can turn a good act evil or an evil act good.

[krugaan]

Your patron need not know about you. An interesting way to play this would be with a fiend warlock / divine soul sorcerer. You draw power from hell into yourself, then convert it to divine magic. Your character fully understands the thin line between good and evil, knowing that a small change can turn a good act evil or an evil act good.

That's a neat idea: a power laundering service.

A coffee-lock who steals power from his demonic patron to power bottomless urns of soup for the poor and wands of wonder for the kiddies.

[croftstr]

Well if you go the most optimal Aspect of the Moon route... you've beseeched your Patron to grant you ultimate power. They did so by taking away your ability to sleep. As you spent countless nights trying to figure out how this aids you, you started testing your Patron-granted magic in relation to your ancestral gifts... and found a way to pervert both together into service of a greater whole.

After discovering it, you spend your evenings meditating, pulling power from your patron, and ensnaring it within your own magical reservoir. Perhaps your patron did not realize the gift that they granted to you, and because of the contract must continue providing it despite it potentially turning you from tool to weapon... a weapon that could be used against it.

Or perhaps the patron knows exactly what it is doing feeding you so much power. After all, the greater the height, the longer the fall...

All dependent on the actual patron and the Sorlocks relation with them, but that's one way to flavor it.

I love the flavor of syphoning power from some great entity, especially if you opt for favored soul. You could have one deity draining the power of another through you.

[Spiritchaser]

That's a neat idea: a power laundering service.

A coffee-lock who steals power from his demonic patron to power bottomless urns of soup for the poor and wands of wonder for the kiddies.

If you were DMing this, could you resist having that soup do something long term and disturbing to those innocent (more or less) impoverished souls eating that hell sent soup?

[Easy_Lee]

If you were DMing this, could you resist having that soup do something long term and disturbing to those innocent (more or less) impoverished souls eating that hell sent soup?

Like turning them into teiflings?

[krugaan]

Like turning them into teiflings?

In that case, have a celestial warlock / shadow sorc that steals from the good to turn all those soup eating poor into murderous shadowlings, mauahahhahaahahha.

Take THAT, Torm!

[E’Tallitnics]

Really?

Out of curiosity, are.you speaking of AL from previous editions? I ask, because the rules for DMs as stated by WOTC seem counter to what you're claiming here.

This line in particular:

"It is okay to make considerable changes or engage in improvisation, so long as you maintain the original spirit of what’s written."

That line seems to suggest that it is ok to improvise and make changes without having to consult a senior GM. In fact, nothing in the AL DMG says anything about having to consult a senior GM for anything.

Nothing in the document suggests that a DM has to hold the rules as sacrosanct or any synonym thereof. It does say that the GM can adjudicate and make a rulings call as they see fit.

I'm happy to be wrong about this, but I just don't see it from my reading of the AL DMG. That's why I think your ideas come from a previous AL edition (I could be wrong on that, too).

As an AL DM this is the correct answer. We have a lot of leeway these days in changing the adventure in order to challenge the players.

However if this build causes too many problems for other players then I would ban that player from using this build as "disruptive". Not this build, permanently. Not that player, permanently. But one player who uses this build at the expense of others at my table.

My chief job is to make sure that everyone has fun. I welcome the challenge! But you start #@$%ing stuff up for others at my table, hogging the spotlight, dominating my time, etc.: I will end you(r PC)!

[Easy_Lee]

As an AL DM this is the correct answer. We have a lot of leeway these days in changing the adventure in order to challenge the players.

However if this build causes too many problems for other players then I would ban that player from using this build as "disruptive". Not this build, permanently. Not that player, permanently. But one player who uses this build at the expense of others at my table.

My chief job is to make sure that everyone has fun. I welcome the challenge! But you start #@$%ing stuff up for others at my table, hogging the spotlight, dominating my time, etc.: I will end you(r PC)!

This is the chief reason that I like to play support. It's hard for anyone, DM or otherwise, to get mad at a support player.

[XmonkTad]

Your patron need not know about you. An interesting way to play this would be with a fiend warlock / divine soul sorcerer. You draw power from hell into yourself, then convert it to divine magic. Your character fully understands the thin line between good and evil, knowing that a small change can turn a good act evil or an evil act good.

Or maybe they both know and are both deliberately filling you with power because what they "pay in" the other has to match. Now they're just waiting to sacrifice you and consume the energy you've been storing up. In a battle of divine titans every edge counts and they're both patient enough to let you accumulate more power, as long as they're the one that gets to you first.

That would keep me up at night.

[mgshamster]

This is the chief reason that I like to play support. It's hard for anyone, DM or otherwise, to get mad at a support player.

Indeed! It's fun to play an OP support character whose sole purpose it to ensure everyone shines to their fullest. :)

Although I am in a game where the DM is absolutely convinced that the mystic is OP because it's possible for him to spend his entire allotment of psi points on healing spells, as as such heal more than a cleric could (despite the fact that I've shown otherwise). This argument has gone on enough, though, that several other players have told me they're going to quit this game. I mean, we're at the point where the DM is targeting my barbarian with special attacks in order to "Nerf" the mystic.

Right now, my barbarian is paralyzed from the waist down due to his spine being petrified from a single poison dagger attack and a single failed save, because the DM thought it was OP that the mystic could cast lesser restoration at level 5 (while also being able to cast a cure spell and being able to cast Detonate).

It was originally going to be just paralysis, but when the DM learned that the mystic could cure it, he changed it to petrification.

[krugaan]

Or maybe they both know and are both deliberately filling you with power because what they "pay in" the other has to match. Now they're just waiting to sacrifice you and consume the energy you've been storing up. In a battle of divine titans every edge counts and they're both patient enough to let you accumulate more power, as long as they're the one that gets to you first.

That would keep me up at night.

Lol, if someone manages to kill a coffee lock, the accumulated power explodes out of him in a raging torrent of spell power.

The staff of the magi = coffeelock on a stick.

[krugaan]

Indeed! It's fun to play an OP support character whose sole purpose it to ensure everyone shines to their fullest. :)

Although I am in a game where the DM is absolutely convinced that the mystic is OP because it's possible for him to spend his entire allotment of psi points on healing spells, as as such heal more than a cleric could (despite the fact that I've shown otherwise). This argument has gone on enough, though, that several other players have told me they're going to quit this game. I mean, we're at the point where the DM is targeting my barbarian with special attacks in order to "Nerf" the mystic.

Right now, my barbarian is paralyzed from the waist down due to his spine being petrified from a single poison dagger attack and a single failed save, because the DM thought it was OP that the mystic could cast lesser restoration at level 5 (while also being able to cast a cure spell and being able to cast Detonate).

It was originally going to be just paralysis, but when the DM learned that the mystic could cure it, he changed it to petrification.

Professor X ... the barbarian?

Wait ... so your character is only partially ... petrified?

How does he ... how does he bathroom?

[Meta]

The divine soul support builds seem pretty decent for filling a good niche. You can be a battery for other players in a long term campaign.

I'm in the camp of probably not OP. Very strong, but won't decimate every encounter. Still needs a party. Starts slowly. I'd probably allow it in a 1-20, but I'd want the player to devote some time in to how they're going to make a character who doesn't sleep feel weird and unique. Definitely quirks, maybe a personality disorder.

I'd also want to approach that player and make sure they knew that they are getting this strange arcane resevoir at a price. They have a patron who has a use for them and to quote the Fiend pact, "Such beings desire the corruption or destruction of all things, ultimately including you." When the story demands it, you will pay a price for those sleepless nights.

[krugaan]

The divine soul support builds seem pretty decent for filling a good niche. You can be a battery for other players in a long term campaign.

I'm in the camp of probably not OP. Very strong, but won't decimate every encounter. Still needs a party. Starts slowly. I'd probably allow it in a 1-20, but I'd want the player to devote some time in to how they're going to make a character who doesn't sleep feel weird and unique. Definitely quirks, maybe a personality disorder.

I'd also want to approach that player and make sure they knew that they are getting this strange arcane resevoir at a price. They have a patron who has a use for them and to quote the Fiend pact, "Such beings desire the corruption or destruction of all things, ultimately including you." When the story demands it, you will pay a price for those sleepless nights.

You'd have to really impose some serious RP drawbacks to nullify the infinite spell points / infinite spell slots. To be fair, the sorcs limited known spells really sort of hampers it, but it totally breaks the encounters per day paradigm.

[mgshamster]

Professor X ... the barbarian?

Wait ... so your character is only partially ... petrified?

How does he ... how does he bathroom?

That hasn't come up in game yet. :)

I think he did a partial so I'm not stuck just sitting there doing nothing. But it also completely took me out of combat right in the middle of major battle and I'm the party's only heavy hitter.

Oh, and also, this particular mission we were trying to rescue an NPC who's so badass that he dual wields a great axe and a maul. We've had to have conversations before about his use of NPCs that travel with the party and are flatly better than the PCs. I guess he's forgotten.

[melvinmelon123]

You'd have to really impose some serious RP drawbacks to nullify the infinite spell points / infinite spell slots. To be fair, the sorcs limited known spells really sort of hampers it, but it totally breaks the encounters per day paradigm.

It also depends on how many encounters a group usually runs. If you are only having 2-3 encounters a day then this build probably won't do anything more than any other caster, maybe even less since they won't have things like Reverse Gravity. Where it breaks stuff is if you are having 8 encounters a day and now you have someone using spell slots like they were a fighter with the Attack action.

[Zene]

Well if you go the most optimal Aspect of the Moon route... you've beseeched your Patron to grant you ultimate power. They did so by taking away your ability to sleep. As you spent countless nights trying to figure out how this aids you, you started testing your Patron-granted magic in relation to your ancestral gifts... and found a way to pervert both together into service of a greater whole.

After discovering it, you spend your evenings meditating, pulling power from your patron, and ensnaring it within your own magical reservoir. Perhaps your patron did not realize the gift that they granted to you, and because of the contract must continue providing it despite it potentially turning you from tool to weapon... a weapon that could be used against it.

Or perhaps the patron knows exactly what it is doing feeding you so much power. After all, the greater the height, the longer the fall...

All dependent on the actual patron and the Sorlocks relation with them, but that's one way to flavor it.

Love that!


Personally, I'd play it as a humble, soft-spoken human with the Alert feat who specialized in supporting the party. There are a few reasons for this:

Alert mitigates the character's most likely cause of death: surprise
It's almost impossible to hate someone who constantly buffs and heals you.

This is what I mean when I say munchkin builds only hurt the party when they overshadow other players. This build is powerful, but also limited in that it's never casting the strongest spells and has a limited selection of spells known. Along with obvious choices like heals and eldritch blast, choose the spells your party needs most. Do that and it will be hard for even the DM to hate you.

Great advice. If this ever becomes a guide, that should be in the intro. We may even want to make an unofficial oath as a coffeelock player (not character) —“I promise to only use this great power for good, by protecting and empowering my fellow players; never for evil, by outshining my fellow players”.


I love the flavor of syphoning power from some great entity, especially if you opt for favored soul. You could have one deity draining the power of another through you.

:O

Such an amazing idea. If you, for example, play your DS as having divine/celestial ancestry, what better target for a devil or other dark force to corrupt?


As an AL DM this is the correct answer. We have a lot of leeway these days in changing the adventure in order to challenge the players.

However if this build causes too many problems for other players then I would ban that player from using this build as "disruptive". Not this build, permanently. Not that player, permanently. But one player who uses this build at the expense of others at my table.

My chief job is to make sure that everyone has fun. I welcome the challenge! But you start #@$%ing stuff up for others at my table, hogging the spotlight, dominating my time, etc.: I will end you(r PC)!

Totally. However, this always comes up in optimized build discussions; as if optimizing itself disrupts. I would like to suggest that spotlight hogging, table dominating, and general jerk-ness are really what disrupts; and those can inhabit an optimizer or a non-optimizer. Optimizing really isn’t the problem, at least in any case I’ve seen as a player or DM in over 20 years of being a D&D-er. It’s just a tool that sometimes is used by disruptive people, so it catches some flak unfairly.


Or maybe they both know and are both deliberately filling you with power because what they "pay in" the other has to match. Now they're just waiting to sacrifice you and consume the energy you've been storing up. In a battle of divine titans every edge counts and they're both patient enough to let you accumulate more power, as long as they're the one that gets to you first.

That would keep me up at night.

A cold war over my character’s soul. Damn, that’s some good fluff.

[Vaz]

Professor X ... the barbarian?

Wait ... so your character is only partially ... petrified?

How does he ... how does he bathroom?

Coughs pellets like an owl.

[Meta]

You'd have to really impose some serious RP drawbacks to nullify the infinite spell points / infinite spell slots. To be fair, the sorcs limited known spells really sort of hampers it, but it totally breaks the encounters per day paradigm.

The DM has literally an infinite number of options in which to challenge the players. This build has 1 infinite (spell slots) given another (time.)

The most obvious thing to do without custom monsters, traps, etc. is put your PCs on a clock. Make every second work against them if you're worried about one PC overshadowing the rest. When nobody rests, non-casters are king.

Off the top of my head, here's a couple ways I'd challenge this 'coffee' PC:

Any recurring foe (or just a prepared one) is going to learn this shtick. This PC has roughly the same defenses as the rest of the party against nasty status effects. Target early. No actions, means no spells. Now the warlock needs help from the party. Don't do this every fight. Dumb ogres and rust monsters aren't going to single this player out. A cunning wizard though? Hell yes.

Lean on their pact as a storytelling hurdle. More from the PHB "A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly being." "More often, though, the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice, The warlock learns and grows in power, at the cost of occasional services performed on the patron's behalf." I bet some of these 'services' will not be in the best interest of the party, but the warlock is much weaker trying to do it alone.

If you want to get really specific, focus on the anti-caster measures in the book and in other mediums. Most spells still have components and there's a feat called mage slayer that's pretty good. Maybe a rival pact bearer sends trained assassins, or that corrupt vizier delves in his nation's coffers to research countermeasures. That's before touching all of the other cool and evocative ways to beat down on a spellcaster in books, games, shows, whatever. I'm rather fond of Anti-Mage from Dota 2 myself.

Bottom line for me: Let the player have encounters where having a ton of spell slots is a real boon. They should feel powerful. But also include some that negate that advantage, or even turn it against them! That's more fun for everyone at the table.

[XmonkTad]

)“I promise to only use this great power for good, by protecting and empowering my fellow players; never for evil, by outshining my fellow players”.


-The Oath sworn by the Knights of the Coffee Table.

[krugaan]

It also depends on how many encounters a group usually runs. If you are only having 2-3 encounters a day then this build probably won't do anything more than any other caster, maybe even less since they won't have things like Reverse Gravity. Where it breaks stuff is if you are having 8 encounters a day and now you have someone using spell slots like they were a fighter with the Attack action.

The norm is supposed to be 6-8 a day, isn't it?


Coughs pellets like an owl.

Lol, I can only imagine how this would RP.

"Dude, you're breath *stinks*."

"Shaddup."

[krugaan]

The DM has literally an infinite number of options in which to challenge the players. This build has 1 infinite (spell slots) given another (time.)

True, but infinite anything is fairly broken, and the infinite in this case jumps online very, very, very early.


The most obvious thing to do without custom monsters, traps, etc. is put your PCs on a clock. Make every second work against them if you're worried about one PC overshadowing the rest. When nobody rests, non-casters are king.

Again, if nobody rests, the coffeelock is still an eldritch blaster, the rest of the casters are completely hosed.

Wizards get unlimited shield and invisibility at level 18. Coffeelocks get theirs at, what ... level 5 (given time, of course)?



Bottom line for me: Let the player have encounters where having a ton of spell slots is a real boon. They should feel powerful. But also include some that negate that advantage, or even turn it against them! That's more fun for everyone at the table.

This is an important point that should never be forgotten. But when one player has unlimited spell slots, it becomes more and more difficult to balance encounters while keeping all the players having fun.

[Easy_Lee]

This is an important point that should never be forgotten. But when one player has unlimited spell slots, it becomes more and more difficult to balance encounters while keeping all the players having fun.

I wonder about that given that the build isn't casting more spells per turn than anyone else, has delayed spell progression, and doesn't gain access to high-level magic. The most busted thing I thought of to do with this character is casting quickened empowered lightning bolts with Agonizing EB spam in the mix. But a warlock / sorcerer can already do that, just less often.

And not even much less often, either. Without even taking the Aspect of the Moon invocation, a normal warlock 3 / sorcerer can create four spell points every short rest anyway. That's one of the reasons why warlock / sorcerer is so popular - it's the strongest blaster regardless. A clever player will already do that as often as he can. This build just does it more often.

Assuming you go down this route, the sorlock goes from being the strongest blaster to an even stronger strongest blaster. But you can bet he isn't beating a Sorcadin for damage, a barbarian for tankiness, a rogue for evasiveness and skill checks, a wizard for versatility, a ranger for wilderness scouting, etc. He just does what he does very well.

And again, that's the non-support route. If you do go support, you're not going to upset anyone. The DM can throw an extra CR level onto encounters and keep trucking.

I wonder if this character is any better at blasting, supoort, etc. than a shadow monk / rogue is at stealth, or a bear barbarian is at tanking.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my opinion, any build that requires specific care in scenario design needs watching. Having to build scenarios around compensating for one character is a red flag that the character is out of the normal band for the system.

[Easy_Lee]

In my opinion, any build that requires specific care in scenario design needs watching. Having to build scenarios around compensating for one character is a red flag that the character is out of the normal band for the system.

In theory, I agree. In practice, bear barbarians, Longbow Sharpshooters, wizards, and just about any other class can yield the same thing.

The main thing this character does that no one else does is partially negate the need for long rests - he doesn't need them and can restore HP, meaning an all-martial party would love to have this guy but any other group will still want rests. But then again, rogues only need long rests to restore HP. An evasive rogue already isn't taking much damage and, unless he's an AT, his features don't run out.

You'd want to ban this character if you like to put your players through super dungeon gauntlets. But in a standard campaign, I doubt he'll cause many issues - none if played correctly.

[krugaan]

I wonder about that given that the build isn't casting more spells per turn than anyone else, has delayed spell progression, and doesn't gain access to high-level magic. The most busted thing I thought of to do with this character is casting quickened empowered lightning bolts with Agonizing EB spam in the mix. But a warlock / sorcerer can already do that, just less often.

And not even much less often, either. Without even taking the Aspect of the Moon invocation, a normal warlock 3 / sorcerer can create four spell points every short rest anyway. That's one of the reasons why warlock / sorcerer is so popular - it's the strongest blaster regardless. A clever player will already do that as often as he can. This build just does it more often.

Assuming you go down this route, the sorlock goes from being the strongest blaster to an even stronger strongest blaster. But you can bet he isn't beating a Sorcadin for damage, a barbarian for tankiness, a rogue for evasiveness and skill checks, a wizard for versatility, a ranger for wilderness scouting, etc. He just does what he does very well.

And again, that's the non-support route. If you do go support, you're not going to upset anyone. The DM can throw an extra CR level onto encounters and keep trucking.

I wonder if this character is any better at blasting, supoort, etc. than a shadow monk / rogue is at stealth, or a bear barbarian is at tanking.

Hah, way to change your position, there. But honestly, I suppose not, when you put it that way, although I haven't really thought about it on a per spell basis. As long as the DM works around less fights, the only really irritating thing might be infinite counterspells, I suppose.

[Easy_Lee]

Hah, way to change your position, there. But honestly, I suppose not, when you put it that way, although I haven't really thought about it on a per spell basis. As long as the DM works around less fights, the only really irritating thing might be infinite counterspells, I suppose.

I've put more thought into it as this thread has gone on. Unlimited spell slots sounds great until you consider that what the character does on a round to round basis is generally the same.

The character invalidates some things, but really shouldn't step on anyone's toes.

Counterspells... I hadn't thought of that. That could be something. But this character is always going to be behind on spell slot level meaning he'll need to roll to counter anything major. He also has to see or hear it.

[krugaan]

I've put more thought into it as this thread has gone on. Unlimited spell slots sounds great until you consider that what the character does on a round to round basis is generally the same.

The character invalidates some things, but really shouldn't step on anyone's toes.

Counterspells... I hadn't thought of that. That could be something. But this character is always going to be behind on spell slot level meaning he'll need to roll to counter anything major. He also has to see or hear it.

Yeah, I think it's not quite as overpowered as before, as long as you discount the out of combat healing (besides, spirit of nature or whatever that stupid new level 2 healing spell is).

But ... it still seems pretty overpowered just from a pure damage standpoint. At level 7 the unlimited level 3 slots come online, and that's when, I think the major problems start, because level 3 spells (fireball, haste, counterspell, hypnotic pattern, etc) are when the first truly powerful spells come online.

... what spells would you be picking for the coffeelock, anyway?

Eldritch Blast, shield, invisibility, counterspell, cure wounds, and dispel magic, for sure.

Fireball, magic missle, hypnotic pattern ... what else?

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, I think it's not quite as overpowered as before, as long as you discount the out of combat healing (besides, spirit of nature or whatever that stupid new level 2 healing spell is).

But ... it still seems pretty overpowered just from a pure damage standpoint. At level 7 the unlimited level 3 slots come online, and that's when, I think the major problems start, because level 3 spells (fireball, haste, counterspell, hypnotic pattern, etc) are when the first truly powerful spells come online.

... what spells would you be picking for the coffeelock, anyway?

Eldritch Blast, shield, invisibility, counterspell, cure wounds, and dispel magic, for sure.

Fireball, magic missle, hypnotic pattern ... what else?

Level 8, actually. And it depends on the goal of the build. You can't do everything on a Sorcerer. Buffer or Blaster are the most obvious choices, though there's something to be said for someone who casts every spell subtle from 6 onward.

You could also take twin plus quicken and do a little of everything.

[krugaan]

Level 8, actually. And it depends on the goal of the build. You can't do everything on a Sorcerer. Buffer or Blaster are the most obvious choices, though there's something to be said for someone who casts every spell subtle from 6 onward.

You could also take twin plus quicken and do a little of everything.

Hmmmmm, blindness / deafness is no concentration and can be upscaled for more targets...

[Easy_Lee]

Hmmmmm, blindness / deafness is no concentration and can be upscaled for more targets...

True, but you can also win encounters with sleet storm, stinking cloud, etc.

[XmonkTad]

... what spells would you be picking for the coffeelock, anyway?

Eldritch Blast, shield, invisibility, counterspell, cure wounds, and dispel magic, for sure.

Fireball, magic missle, hypnotic pattern ... what else?

I like color spray (just keep trying damage types till you find one that works!) And Armour of Agythis (sp?) for temp HP. Shield, invisibility, cure wounds etc. are all really good choices.

[Easy_Lee]

Don't forget about Absorb Elements. Sudden death is the character's biggest fear.

[Easy_Lee]

It occurred to me that you might not want to take Quicken on this character at first. With the ability to Twin and Empower regularly, he'll need his bonus action for converting spell slots to spell points pretty often. Might be best to pick Quicken up at sorcerer 10.

[snafuy]

Way to cherry pick. You forgot the parts before and after that, which explicitly show that the rule you're quoting is regarding sleep deprivation. Which Aspect of the Moon negates.
Aspect of the Moon says "you no longer need to sleep". I can see how some people might interpret that as implying "you suffer none of the negative effects of skipping long rests", but that's not what it says (and it's not how my table will do it).

The sentence on p.78 about "if you want to use this rule" is commentary with no mechanical effect (like the "well regulated militia" clause). The actual crunch is in the following sentences, and they make no reference to sleep, only to 24-hour periods and long rests.

[Easy_Lee]

Aspect of the Moon says "you no longer need to sleep". I can see how some people might interpret that as implying "you suffer none of the negative effects of skipping long rests", but that's not what it says (and it's not how my table will do it).

The sentence on p.78 about "if you want to use this rule" is commentary with no mechanical effect (like the "well regulated militia" clause). The actual crunch is in the following sentences, and they make no reference to sleep, only to 24-hour periods and long rests.

This came up earlier in the thread. In short: if you use that optional rule and interpret Aspect of the Moon as not negating the need for Long Rests, then you're only delaying the inevitable. Divine Sorcerers gain access to Greater Restoration, and it's perfectly possible that someone else in the party will be willing and able to cast the spell even sooner than the Coffeelock gets it.

My advice: if you intend to disallow the build, don't be a **** about it.

[Mikal]

This came up earlier in the thread. In short: if you use that optional rule and interpret Aspect of the Moon as not negating the need for Long Rests, then you're only delaying the inevitable. Divine Sorcerers gain access to Greater Restoration, and it's perfectly possible that someone else in the party will be willing and able to cast the spell even sooner than the Coffeelock gets it.

My advice: if you intend to disallow the build, don't be a **** about it.

Of course, if you're using the rule and interpret Aspect of the Moon as not negating the need for Long Rests, you don't really understand how either of them work.

[Ganymede]

I get that we all love roasting rules designers for screwing up, but this is six pages of the exact same joke.

[Vaz]

I get that we all love roasting rules designers for screwing up, but this is six pages of the exact same joke.

Welcome to GitP.

[Mikal]

I get that we all love roasting rules designers for screwing up, but this is six pages of the exact same joke.

Who said this was a joke? It's a valid build and people are curious as to what the actual effects are and whether it's worth to run.

[Easy_Lee]

Who said this was a joke? It's a valid build and people are curious as to what the actual effects are and whether it's worth to run.

Right.

This build doesn't do anything that other players can't do. It actually does less, being behind on spell level and forever unable to make use of the strongest spells. It just does what it can do more often.

Other players will appreciate the healing and consistent utility. The only player likely to be upset by it is the DM. And when the DM is the only one who's upset, chances are that the DM, not the player, is the problem. In my experience, DMs get upset about a variety of things that they shouldn't.

People familiar with my posts will know that I support builds like this but am against things like Wish-Simulacrum cheese. I don't like builds that break the game and destroy challenge. But I'm all in favor of builds that have interesting effects or unique abilities. The more I've thought about it, I've grown fond of this build for that reason.

[RSP]

Right.

This build doesn't do anything that other players can't do. It actually does less, being behind on spell level and forever unable to make use of the strongest spells. It just does what it can do more often.

Other players will appreciate the healing and consistent utility. The only player likely to be upset by it is the DM. And when the DM is the only one who's upset, chances are that the DM, not the player, is the problem. In my experience, DMs get upset about a variety of things that they shouldn't.

People familiar with my posts will know that I support builds like this but am against things like Wish-Simulacrum cheese. I don't like builds that break the game and destroy challenge. But I'm all in favor of builds that have interesting effects or unique abilities. The more I've thought about it, I've grown fond of this build for that reason.

Not quite an accurate assessment. Unlimited Shield and Sanctuary alone are complete game changers and shouldn't be allowed, in my opinion. At higher levels, unlimited Counterspell is the same.

That's just a few spells but those three break the game when done at will.

[Easy_Lee]

Not quite an accurate assessment. Unlimited Shield and Sanctuary alone are complete game changers and shouldn't be allowed, in my opinion. At higher levels, unlimited Counterspell is the same.

That's just a few spells but those three break the game when done at will.

Counterspell will always be a roll because the character is one or two levels behind on spell level. Infinite shield doesn't hit the same AC as a Hexblade / sword bard can, and several other builds can do better consistently. Sanctuary ends the moment you attack or cast a spell, and creatures can make the save or just get around the spell with AoE, anyway.

Additionally, most combats last about 3 rounds or so. Even if we assume 6-8 encounters per day - and I've never seen this many even once - that's still a lot of rounds where other players will be doing more with their more powerful spells.

[mgshamster]

Regarding the sleep vs long rest differences, do note that all of the 5e books are constantly conflating these terms, to the point where trying to claim that they're different things comes with a lot of uncertainty.

Take, for example, the variant rules in XGE. While the mechanical text specifies Long Rest, the explanatory text immediately preceding the specific statement cited states "sleep" rather than "long rest." That section opens with, "A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences." It also says, "It becomes harder to fight off exhaustion if you stay awake for multiple days." Claiming that they're different things is dubious at best.