Xanathar's Demon-Summoning Spells

[Brawndo]

So, looks like the various demon-summoning spells in Xanathar's will go much more smoothly for you if you know the demon's true name.

But I can't find any reference to known or even suggested methods for finding out something's true name. Is there anything about this in the game anywhere? Or is it something you need to work with your DM on?

It seems a bit sloppy to hang such an important aspect of a spell's mechanics on something there isn't any mechanical way to take advantage of, esepcially for a Warlock. The spells sound fun, but they're pretty dangerous, and I can't imagine casting them except in a truly desperate situation. And for a spell that I would avoid casting in nearly all circumstances, it just doesn't seem like a good choice for a Warlock with their limited spells known and even more limited spell slots...

[UrielAwakened]

It seems a bit sloppy to hang such an important aspect of a spell's mechanics on something there isn't any mechanical way to take advantage of

Welcome to 5th edition.

[Unoriginal]

So, looks like the various demon-summoning spells in Xanathar's will go much more smoothly for you if you know the demon's true name.

But I can't find any reference to known or even suggested methods for finding out something's true name. Is there anything about this in the game anywhere? Or is it something you need to work with your DM on?


From the MM:


DEMON TRUE NAMES Though demons all have common names, every demon lord and every demon of type 1 through 6 has a true name that it keeps secret. A demon can be forced to disclose its true name if charmed, and ancient scrolls and tomes are said to exist that list the true names of the most powerful demons.

So, either force the Demon to tell it, or use time to research it in old texts.



It seems a bit sloppy to hang such an important aspect of a spell's mechanics on something there isn't any mechanical way to take advantage of, esepcially for a Warlock.

It's really not an important aspect of the spell's mechanics, it's just a bit of lore they decided to give some notable mechanical effect.



The spells sound fun, but they're pretty dangerous, and I can't imagine casting them except in a truly desperate situation. And for a spell that I would avoid casting in nearly all circumstances, it just doesn't seem like a good choice for a Warlock with their limited spells known and even more limited spell slots...

Spells are also for enemy NPCs. And believe me, there is a lot of demon-followers who will be desperate when the PCs show up.


Welcome to 5th edition.

You may want to check what 5e says about something, before snidely implying they messed up.

[JackPhoenix]

Note: Summon Lesser Demons doesn't work as it should.


d6 Demons Summoned
1–2 Two demons of challenge rating 1 or lower
3–4 Four demons of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
5–6 Eight demons of challenge rating 1/4 or lower

Second option screws you over, because there are (currently) no demons (or any other kind of fiends) with CR 1/2, so you'll get the same demons as the third option, but only a half the number.

[GlenSmash!]

Note: Summon Lesser Demons doesn't work as it should.



Second option screws you over, because there are (currently) no demons (or any other kind of fiends) with CR 1/2, so you'll get the same demons as the third option, but only a half the number.

Interesting. Look's like I'll have to stat up some 1/2 CR demons.

[furryblueelf]

Finding the names of Demons is a hell (badomtish) of a good role playing opportunity as well. The sheer power you can gain over a demon knowing their true name is nought to sneeze at.
It doesnt have to be all spelled out. The books are mere guidelines.

[Unoriginal]

Finding the names of Demons is a hell (badomtish) of a good role playing opportunity as well. The sheer power you can gain over a demon knowing their true name is nought to sneeze at.
It doesnt have to be all spelled out. The books are mere guidelines.

The books say how to do it, though, still.

[UrielAwakened]

So, either force the Demon to tell it, or use time to research it in old texts.

You may want to check what 5e says about something, before snidely implying they messed up.

Force it how. In combat? When you would presumably be doing this spell for anything resembling real return on investment? Research it where?

Again, welcome to 5e, where a spell can't just be self-contained.

[Deathtongue]

Spells are also for enemy NPCs. And believe me, there is a lot of demon-followers who will be desperate when the PCs show up.Have a familiar or stray rock or Mage Hand or whatever scratch the blood circle. It's not a very good spell even for NPCs who will certainly have their DM metagame for them and have them just so happen to haved kill a humanoid minion offscreen in the past 24 hours.

[Vaz]

Force it how. In combat? When you would presumably be doing this spell for anything resembling real return on investment? Research it where?

Again, welcome to 5e, where a spell can't just be self-contained.

"forced if charmed"

Check: is_demon_charmed
--if_yes: will_provide_true_name
--if_no: will_not_provide_true_name

[UrielAwakened]

Have a familiar or stray rock or Mage Hand or whatever scratch the blood circle. It's not a very good spell even for NPCs who will certainly have their DM metagame for them and have them just so happen to haved kill a humanoid minion offscreen in the past 24 hours.

Yeah this spell literally only needs to exist for PC use.

An NPC can just already have demons with him, he doesn't need a spell to do it.


"forced if charmed"

Check: is_demon_charmed
--if_yes: will_provide_true_name
--if_no: will_not_provide_true_name

So I'm casting charm spells now on these demons in combat? And then I need to ask it its name?

Why? Why can't it just be an Arcana check or something and if I pass I know its name.

Why do these already moderately-useless spells need even more baggage?

[krugaan]

Have a familiar or stray rock or Mage Hand or whatever scratch the blood circle. It's not a very good spell even for NPCs who will certainly have their DM metagame for them and have them just so happen to haved kill a humanoid minion offscreen in the past 24 hours.

*coughPrestidigitationcough*

"Looks like you spilled a bit of blood there, let me help you clean it up."

[JackPhoenix]

So I'm casting charm spells now on these demons in combat? And then I need to ask it its name?

Why? Why can't it just be an Arcana check or something and if I pass I know its name.

Why do these already moderately-useless spells need even more baggage?

They don't, you may just cast the spell and run from the following mayhem. And "get any demon's true name through Arcana check" is incredibly boring and unispired solution. God forbid you'd have to actually roleplay in roleplaying game!

[UrielAwakened]

They don't, you may just cast the spell and run from the following mayhem. And "get any demon's true name through Arcana check" is incredibly boring and unispired solution. God forbid you'd have to actually roleplay in roleplaying game!

God forbid a game feel like a game and not a bad attempt at a fantasy simulator.

[samcifer]

I really hate spells like this. If they were friendly towards you I'd be okay with it, but these are spells that can easily backfire on you, and imo, too risky to use because of that.

[Deathtongue]

Yeah this spell literally only needs to exist for PC use.

An NPC can just already have demons with him, he doesn't need a spell to do it.Nah, screw that. I absolutely hate it when this or any other game leans on offscreen DM powers to implement genre effects. And you should hate it, too. It's bad writing and it's unfair.

My problem isn't the idea behind the spell, my problem is that the game designers got way too big for their britches and thought they had a clever way to give their NPCs a tool those dirty little PC munchkins couldn't abuse. I'm GLAD that their attempt at creating an escape hatch blew up in their face, but that still leaves us with a fairly useless spell.

[UrielAwakened]

Nah, screw that. I absolutely hate it when this or any other game leans on offscreen DM powers to implement genre effects. And you should hate it, too. It's bad writing and it's unfair.

My problem isn't the idea behind the spell, my problem is that the game designers got way too big for their britches and thought they had a clever way to give their NPCs a tool those dirty little PC munchkins couldn't abuse. I'm GLAD that their attempt at creating an escape hatch blew up in their face, but that still leaves us with a fairly useless spell.

It's not bad writing and it's not unfair.

It's a world where demons exist and it stands to reason some people can control them.

I don't need a way to make it happen within the rules of the game because this isn't a fantasy simulator. It's a game.

It's just a game.

[Deathtongue]

Also, do demons have true names in 5E? I know that DEVILS do. Something that makes Infernal Calling a lot more usable. But I don't recall the game allowing demons or generic fiends to have true names.

[Unoriginal]

Force it how. In combat? When you would presumably be doing this spell for anything resembling real return on investment?

Yes, in combat. The Summon Greater Demon spell let you order the Demon to do something when you're summoning it (and once per turn afterward), and "tell me your true name" is something you can order when the Demon shows up. Also, you can make the demon say what its name is if you cast a spell that charms it. As described in the MM.



Research it where?

In old texts on the subject. As was already said.


Again, welcome to 5e, where a spell can't just be self-contained.

Welcome to 5e, where some spells get a non-indispensable bonus linked to the game's lore rather than only being mechanical buttons to push.

Also, that you're trying to pretend no spell is self-contained is just hilariously sad.


Also, do demons have true names in 5E?

Yes.


DEMON TRUE NAMES Though demons all have common names, every demon lord and every demon of type 1 through 6 has a true name that it keeps secret.

[JackPhoenix]

God forbid a game feel like a game and not a bad attempt at a fantasy simulator.

If I wanted to play a game where I can only push pre-defined buttons, I would play a video game. Even 4e wasn't that bad.

[Unoriginal]

Have a familiar or stray rock or Mage Hand or whatever scratch the blood circle. It's not a very good spell even for NPCs who will certainly have their DM metagame for them and have them just so happen to haved kill a humanoid minion offscreen in the past 24 hours.

How is that metagaming? Evil people with the power to summon demons at the cost of killing others will probably do so if they have the time.

Hell, they probably kill people for many other reasons, if given the chance.


God forbid a game feel like a game and not a bad attempt at a fantasy simulator.

You're in the wrong edition if you want it to be only a game and not a roleplaying fantasy simulator.

Then again, I guess I see why you like 4e now.


I really hate spells like this. If they were friendly towards you I'd be okay with it, but these are spells that can easily backfire on you, and imo, too risky to use because of that.

They're Demons. Using them is supposed to be dangerous for you and everyone around you.





It's a world where demons exist and it stands to reason some people can control them.

Yes, and now they have this spell for that.


I don't need a way to make it happen within the rules of the game because this isn't a fantasy simulator. It's a game.

So your argument is that BECAUSE it's a game, you don't need rules?

...

[UrielAwakened]

No, my argument is the developers are bad at their jobs and they get a free pass from people like you because you all have stockholm syndrome.

[samcifer]

No, my argument is the developers are bad at their jobs and they get a free pass from people like you because you all have stockholm syndrome.

It's the Hold Person talking I swear! ...Umm... He can Hold me all he wants... :)

[Brawndo]

Yes, in combat. The Summon Greater Demon spell let you order the Demon to do something when you're summoning it (and once per turn afterward), and "tell me your true name" is something you can order when the Demon shows up. Also, you can make the demon say what its name is if you cast a spell that charms it. As described in the MM.

OK yeah a more careful reading revealed that very obvious trick, thanks for pointing that out and forcing me to look closer. You can issue a command as soon as you summon it, but it doesn't get a check to resist you until the end of its turn, by which time it's already told you its true name. I think that checks out.

[Unoriginal]

No, my argument is the developers are bad at their jobs and they get a free pass from people like you because you all have stockholm syndrome.

No, your argument is that people should only do what you like and **** them if they like something else, they have stockholm syndrome.

Seriously, why don't you go talk about a game you like on another board? Insulting people is against GitP's forum rules, you would probably be happier somewhere you're not breaking them.


OK yeah a more careful reading revealed that very obvious trick, thanks for pointing that out and forcing me to look closer. You can issue a command as soon as you summon it, but it doesn't get a check to resist you until the end of its turn, by which time it's already told you its true name. I think that checks out.

You're welcome. As it turns out, the spell contains its own solution. You get at minimum one command the demon can't shake off.

[Deathtongue]

Yes, in combat. The Summon Greater Demon spell let you order the Demon to do something when you're summoning it (and once per turn afterward), and "tell me your true name" is something you can order when the Demon shows up. Also, you can make the demon say what its name is if you cast a spell that charms it. As described in the MM.Okay, so then what? Where are the rules that say that knowing a demon's true name lets you tell it what to do? Why couldn't, say, a demon summoned with this spell go "congratulations, you know my true name" and then continue going on a rampage?

[Deathtongue]

How is that metagaming? Evil people with the power to summon demons at the cost of killing others will probably do so if they have the time.

Hell, they probably kill people for many other reasons, if given the chance.You need humanoid blood killed in the past 24 hours. The chances of even a bloodthirsty wizard happening to meet that requirement when they didn't specifically prepare for it (such as storming an enemy stronghold) is frankly pretty low. Not even Dracula kills someone for their blood every day.

[Brawndo]

Okay, so then what? Where are the rules that say that knowing a demon's true name lets you tell it what to do? Why couldn't, say, a demon summoned with this spell go "congratulations, you know my true name" and then continue going on a rampage?

If you know its true name, it gets disadvantage on its Charisma checks to resist your command.

[Unoriginal]

Where are the rules that say that knowing a demon's true name lets you tell it what to do?



At the end of each of the demons turns, it makes a Charisma saving throw. The demon has disadvantage
on this saving throw if you say its true name. On a failed save, the demon continues to obey you


Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 167.

You know, the page where the spell we're talking about is.



Why couldn't, say, a demon summoned with this spell go "congratulations, you know my true name" and then continue going on a rampage?

Technically possible, but the demon would need to pass a Cha saving throw at disadvantage.


You need humanoid blood killed in the past 24 hours. The chances of even a bloodthirsty wizard happening to meet that requirement when they didn't specifically prepare for it (such as storming an enemy stronghold) is frankly pretty low. Not even Dracula kills someone for their blood every day.

No, but one of the most infamous activities of demon cultists that the PCs try to stop is human sacrifice.

Also, simply killing someone just before casting the spell and getting their blood works, too. Sacrificing an unimportant cultist to get a powerful Demon is a bargain most demon-summoners will see as advantageous. Or you can even find someone who was killed during an unrelated attack during the last day. In any case, when PCs meet their enemies, it's likely people will be killed, and then the blood can be used.


Also, little detail: since the blood is not a costly material component, you can replace it by using a focus instead. And most casters can find a focus easily.

[Deathtongue]

Sorry, I was focused on Summon Lesser Demon. Summon Greater Demon does have that clause and I was wrong.


No, but one of the most infamous activities of demon cultists that the PCs try to stop is human sacrifice.

Also, simply killing someone just before casting the spell and getting their blood works, too. Sacrificing an unimportant cultist to get a powerful Demon is a bargain most demon-summoners will see as advantageous. Or you can even find someone who was killed during an unrelated attack during the last day.Yup. Like I said, nice convenient DM escape hatch that encourages them to bend the laws of narrative causality for their NPCs.


Also, little detail: since the blood is not a costly material component, you can replace it by using a focus instead. And most casters can find a focus easily.You can replace the casting cost, but not the 'pour blood in a circle.

[Eunostus]

It's also good to note that while the Shadow Demon has a +4 on Charisma saves, a Barlgura only has a -1 to Cha saves. By the time you can cast Summon Greater Demon, your spellcasting DC is likely to be at least 15, meaning the Barlgura only has a 25% chance to succeed, but with a proper magic item (e.g. Rod of the Pactkeeper) and the lvl 8 ASI, those odds drop significantly, making the spell much more reliable.

[Unoriginal]

Yup. Like I said, nice convenient DM escape hatch that encourages them to bend the laws of narrative causality for their NPCs

That's ridiculous. How is it bending the laws of narrative causality when it's a) something they're likely to do b) something they can do in an emergency and c) something they can do if the PCs just happen to have killed one of their enemies during a previous fight the same day ?

It's like saying it's bending the laws of narrative causality to have an enemy necromancer working with cultists have corpses to his disposal.



You can replace the casting cost, but not the 'pour blood in a circle.

Yes, and? That's a decent security measure, sure, but it's not indispensable and if someone has to summon a demon without having the time to get the blood, they don't have the luxury to complain.

[JackPhoenix]

Sorry, I was focused on Summon Lesser Demon. Summon Greater Demon does have that clause and I was right.

Yup. Like I said, nice convenient DM escape hatch that encourages them to bend the laws of narrative causality for their NPCs.

You can replace the casting cost, but not the 'pour blood in a circle.

What's wrong with pouring your staff in a circle?

While foci are great, there's still component pouch, which somehow has vial of fresh blood whenever you want to cast one of these spells. Guess that's why it's more expensive than the foci: it's actually a magic item.

[Deathtongue]

How is it bending the laws of narrative causality when it's a) something they're likely to do b) something they can do in an emergency and c) something they can do if the PCs just happen to have killed one of their enemies during a previous fight the same day ?Because all of those are significantly more unlikely than you're giving it credit for, even when viewed as independent events. Even in the Spellvault in Dead in Thay, a stronghold full of evil and demon-summoning necromancers, how likely is it for your party to run across across a 5th level (Thayan Apprentices come in packs in this dungeon) or high-level Red Wizard that just so happened to kill a humanoid in the past 24 hours?

[Unoriginal]

Because all of those are significantly more unlikely than you're giving it credit for, even when viewed as independent events. Even in the Spellvault in Dead in Thay, a stronghold full of evil and demon-summoning necromancers, how likely is it for your party to run across across a 5th level (Thayan Apprentices come in packs in this dungeon) or high-level Red Wizard that just so happened to kill a humanoid in the past 24 hours?

... If there are 5th level or higher Red Wizards in the place, extremely likely?



Assistant: "Master Kor-Shoda, the adventurers are penetrating our defenses!"

Kor-Shoda: "I see. We need stronger protectors. Bring me what's left of last night's test subject/sacrifice.

Assistant: "Of course, master."



Or


Assistant: "Master Kor-Shoda, the adventurers are penetrating our defenses!"

Kor-Shoda: "I see. We need stronger protectors. Bring me one of the prisoners of lesser importance.¨

Assistant: "Of course, master."



Or


Assistant: "Master Kor-Shoda, the adventurers are penetrating our defenses!"

Kor-Shoda: "I see. We need stronger protectors. Bring me one of the slaves or servants. An expendable one."

Assistant: "Of course, master."



Or


Assistant: "Master Kor-Shoda, the adventurers are penetrating our defenses!"

Kor-Shoda: "I see. We need stronger protectors. How many of our guards died so far?

Assistant: "At least ten, maybe more."

Kor-Shoda: "Mmmh, take those vials, go take blood from their corpses, we're going to need it.

Assistant: "Of course, master."



Or


Assistant: "Master Kor-Shoda, the adventurers are penetrating our defenses! They'll soon be here!"

Kor-Shoda: "I see. We need stronger protectors. I trust you are ready to help?"

Assistant: "Of course, master."

*Kor-Shoda kills the assistant and put his blood in vials*

Kor-Shoda: "Your cooperation is welcomed."

[Deathtongue]

... If there are 5th level or higher Red Wizards in the place, extremely likely?Uh, no? All of your situations strain suspension of disbelief, especially the fourth and fifth ones. What is this, an 80s action movie villain, who has a bunch of street thugs and workers just hanging around the base?
"Oh, hang on, Bahb, there was an alarm in Room 43. Let's pop down to Room 23 four hallways over, kill a servant, pray it doesn't tick off Elcian, then rush back."
"Why don't we just head down over there and hope they spilled some blood?"
"Because the Harpers released a pamphlet last month instructing heroes to use prestidigitation to clean up spills and a handy corpse disposal checklist. I told you just to prep Fireball and Animate Dead, man!"

There are literally dozens of Red Wizards in the Spellvault (and probably more) and there are only a handful of non-wizard non-humanoids. While there are are a lot of corpses and foul experiments going on, there are almost no chaff prisoners. They do experiment on undead and demons there and there is a LOT of undead fodder, but they don't really do the whole 'kidnap a bunch of humanoids peasants and run foul experiments on them'. Which is unsurprising, because if you're a mid-to-high level wizard, you have better things to experiment on and if you want to keep more than a few people alive every day, that's just additional logistics. They didn't just have a bunch of slaves/servants/whatever sticking around in NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer to serve as convenient sacrifices, either.

Also, if I'm a mastermind and I kill one of my 'at least has 3rd-level spell' Thayan apprentices so that I can cast Summon Greater/Lesser demon for a couple of rounds safely, I'm a huge stinking idiot.

[Maxilian]

I don't think the spells are that bad, i find it easy to get something out of the low CR demons, just spawn it far away from you, they attack whatever creature is closer to them, so use them as a started assault (to distract or just weaken some enemies)

[Envyus]

Uh, no? All of your situations strain suspension of disbelief, especially the fourth and fifth ones. What is this, an 80s action movie villain, who has a bunch of street thugs and workers just hanging around the base?
Those last two are pretty much the most likely.

Most cultists are wimps. It does not suspend disbelief at all. Also if any of the minions had died they can just get some blood from their corpses. And while the Doomvault may have not a ton of humanoid prisoners why would a Demon Cult not have one.

[Sigreid]

As far as the PC wizard having access to the fresh blood, that's about 5 minutes into a standard work day isn't it?

[Scathain]

Uh, no? All of your situations strain suspension of disbelief, especially the fourth and fifth ones. What is this, an 80s action movie villain, who has a bunch of street thugs and workers just hanging around the base?
"Oh, hang on, Bahb, there was an alarm in Room 43. Let's pop down to Room 23 four hallways over, kill a servant, pray it doesn't tick off Elcian, then rush back."
"Why don't we just head down over there and hope they spilled some blood?"
"Because the Harpers released a pamphlet last month instructing heroes to use prestidigitation to clean up spills and a handy corpse disposal checklist. I told you just to prep Fireball and Animate Dead, man!"

There are literally dozens of Red Wizards in the Spellvault (and probably more) and there are only a handful of non-wizard non-humanoids. While there are are a lot of corpses and foul experiments going on, there are almost no chaff prisoners. They do experiment on undead and demons there and there is a LOT of undead fodder, but they don't really do the whole 'kidnap a bunch of humanoids peasants and run foul experiments on them'. Which is unsurprising, because if you're a mid-to-high level wizard, you have better things to experiment on and if you want to keep more than a few people alive every day, that's just additional logistics. They didn't just have a bunch of slaves/servants/whatever sticking around in NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer to serve as convenient sacrifices, either.

Also, if I'm a mastermind and I kill one of my 'at least has 3rd-level spell' Thayan apprentices so that I can cast Summon Greater/Lesser demon for a couple of rounds safely, I'm a huge stinking idiot.

It seriously seems like you’re being willfully combative about a spell you WANT to hate. You’re trying to argue that an antagonist in a FANTASY setting wouldn’t have expendable underlings? Or that they wouldn’t use resources to their advantage? Or that they wouldn’t take risks?

Like dude, I get it, you aren’t a fan. Just don’t cast the spell then.

[Deathtongue]

And while the Doomvault may have not a ton of humanoid prisoners why would a Demon Cult not have one.Didn't see a lot of humanoid prisoners in the Thayan academy/stronghold of Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, either.

Also, Thayan wizard cabals are almost indistinguishable from Demon Cults. The only reason why they're not considered a stereotypical Demon Cult is because of their allegiances and they avoid many of the more questionable tropes of Demon Cults. They have standards, you know.


It seriously seems like you’re being willfully combative about a spell you WANT to hate. You’re trying to argue that an antagonist in a FANTASY setting wouldn’t have expendable underlings?In the context of D&D as she is played? That is, the average dungeon/castle/ruins-dwelling mid-level wizard antagonist with the dungeon layout indicative of priorities? Yes.

Have you played any of the HCs for any edition recently? The baddies having large amounts of throwaway prisoners/hostages does not happen past a certain point in the game. Which is understandable -- I mean 'I'm keeping a dozen innocent people on starvation rations that I'm planning to kill for evil research' is a good way of kicking the dog, but when you need versimilitude it's hard to think of a reason to have them around when you have juicier targets and things to do. I haven't seen any humanoid servants/slaves in the Doomvault (there are a handful of humanoid prisoners or similar people in such predicaments), but you know what I DID see? Literal zombies mopping up the floors. I've only seen it happen once, in Against the Giants with the Hill Giant fort. And not only is the prison level was pretty far away from the main area, the adventure even has a reason for it: the hill giants are too stupid to take care of themselves and also have a humanoid larder.

[JackPhoenix]

Didn't see a lot of humanoid prisoners in the Thayan academy/stronghold of Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, either.

And I'm pretty sure your character couldn't ride a horse there either. Using a mediocre video game as an example for D&D? Really?


Also, Thayan wizard cabals are almost indistinguishable from Demon Cults. The only reason why they're not considered a stereotypical Demon Cult is because of their allegiances and they avoid many of the more questionable tropes of Demon Cults. They have standards, you know.

In the context of D&D as she is played? That is, the average dungeon/castle/ruins-dwelling mid-level wizard antagonist with the dungeon layout indicative of priorities? Yes.

Have you played any of the HCs for any edition recently? The baddies having large amounts of throwaway prisoners/hostages does not happen past a certain point in the game. Which is understandable -- I mean 'I'm keeping a dozen innocent people on starvation rations that I'm planning to kill for evil research' is a good way of kicking the dog, but when you need versimilitude it's hard to think of a reason to have them around when you have juicier targets and things to do. I haven't seen any humanoid servants/slaves in the Doomvault (there are a handful of humanoid prisoners or similar people in such predicaments), but you know what I DID see? Literal zombies mopping up the floors. I've only seen it happen once, in Against the Giants with the Hill Giant fort. And not only is the prison level was pretty far away from the main area, the adventure even has a reason for it: the hill giants are too stupid to take care of themselves and also have a humanoid larder.

Well, none of them had the means to summon demons in combat, did they?

You're just looking for excuses. If an evil mage or cultist or whatever wants to summon demons on the fly, he'll make sure he's got source of fresh humanoid blood on hand. If he doesn't want to summon demons, he doesn't need to keep prisoners for that specific purpose, or he won't try to summon demons if he somehow doesn't have access to blood, even though it's really easy to get.

[Unoriginal]

Uh, no? All of your situations strain suspension of disbelief, especially the fourth and fifth ones.

There is nothing about it that strain suspension of disbelief.



What is this, an 80s action movie villain, who has a bunch of street thugs and workers just hanging around the base?

Yes.




"Why don't we just head down over there and hope they spilled some blood?"
"Because the Harpers released a pamphlet last month instructing heroes to use prestidigitation to clean up spills and a handy corpse disposal checklist. I told you just to prep Fireball and Animate Dead, man!"

This is ridiculous. You can't use an argument I advanced and then act as if I was contriving why it's not possible to do that. You're literally doing what you're accusing me of doing: contriving narrative causality.



There are literally dozens of Red Wizards in the Spellvault (and probably more) and there are only a handful of non-wizard non-humanoids.

And none of them can be killed quickly to get more power?



there are almost no chaff prisoners.

But there ARE some, right?


They didn't just have a bunch of slaves/servants/whatever sticking around in NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer to serve as convenient sacrifices, either.

It's a bloody video game, not a RPG session.




Also, if I'm a mastermind and I kill one of my 'at least has 3rd-level spell' Thayan apprentices so that I can cast Summon Greater/Lesser demon for a couple of rounds safely, I'm a huge stinking idiot.

One, a CR 5 demon is DEFINITIVELY going to be more powerful than a guy who can cast a 3rd level spell, so again, a Red Wizard could see it as a decent bargain. Two, if you don't want to go through the bother of getting the blood... you can still use your damn focus and not have to worry about it.

So really, I don't see what's your complain.



Didn't see a lot of humanoid prisoners in the Thayan academy/stronghold of Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, either.

Again, it's a video game, not a RPG session. Video games are limited in what can be programmed in them, and so a lot of things aren't included, logistics to make places where people live viable included. It's like how in Elder Scroll: Oblivion each city only gave something like two soldiers to stop the army of daedra that's going to destroy the world. It's not that people don't care about saving the world, it's literally that the game couldn't allow more.




(there are a handful of humanoid prisoners or similar people in such predicaments)

Oh, so you admit that if they wanted to summon a demon using the blood of freshly-killed humanoids they'd have prisoners to kill?

Also, again, you're refusing to consider how bad guys could kill one of their weakest members to summon a strong entity, or just have them use one of the guys the adventurers killed.



You're just looking for excuses. If an evil mage or cultist or whatever wants to summon demons on the fly, he'll make sure he's got source of fresh humanoid blood on hand. If he doesn't want to summon demons, he doesn't need to keep prisoners for that specific purpose, or he won't try to summon demons if he somehow doesn't have access to blood, even though it's really easy to get.

Or he'd use a focus, because he's an evil mage.

[Goosefarble]

Don't really get the hate for these spells. Both seem really cool, especially for enemy spellcasters. A wizard killing an underling to summon a demon? Hell yes, that's dramatic. Even more dramatic if he does it in front of the players and the underling is a known entity to them. It raises the stakes.

Even for players, these are useful spells - particularly the Lesser Demons one. You sneak up to a guard room, inch open the door a crack, see a bunch of burly individuals in armour playing cards, as yet unalerted to your presence. You take out the blood vial from the sentry the rogue killed when you snuck in, and bam. Eight dretches suddenly appear in the guard room, wreaking havoc and slaughtering the unsuspecting guards. Then you bust on in and clean up the survivors, demon or otherwise. Easy.

[Reosoul]

These spells are awesome and give you a lot of opportunity for world-building and/or just having some cool moments come up in the story. The higher level spells are especially awesome if you've got a DM who is interested in making the most of this spell:


The being I have named Barbatorem is an entity falling under the classification Insolitus Nex. This author does not believe in stricter classifications, and leaves it to others to label him a creature of gluttony or ruin as they see fit. It is difficult to impossible to guess as to his origins, but one can speculate that it came about after the dawn of human civilization, given the common elements and the trend in appearances.

The entity was first bound by this author In Winter, SA 953. The binding was a difficult one to tackle, with a little more than a share of guesswork going into the execution. In the end, this author used an Ut Vires approach pointing to Contrarium methodology. An abstract entity bound in a rule-defining diagram of geometric lines and Byzantine notation. Twenty years after the fact, this author stands by her reasoning at the time.

Should another warlock need to bait him again, know that this author used: a pile of festering boar carcasses, six feet high, each carved with his name when well into their state of decay, the decay timed using refrigeration to be roughly parallel; seven jars of burning hair, resupplied keep the flames perpetually alight; and the crest of this offering was an innocent and a virgin in the form of a one year old innocent, placed at the height of the pile. For more on the reasoning behind this methodology, please see my other work.

This author cannot say whether he was attracted to the virgin aspect or the innocent, but this author was nonetheless happy to have an option at hand to serve both purposes. The child was unharmed and largely unaware of what occurred.

Given Barbatorem’s nature, this author would recommend another means of baiting him in the future, as he will remember, anticipate and adapt with each means used. He agreed to be bound by the seal of Re'lar four months after the initial capture. The diagram this author used for entrapment, necessitating only one line to open or close, can be found on page five of this entry, followed by the means of summoning and the recommended diagram for imprisonment.

Signing Barbatorem to the Standard remains the proudest accomplishment for this author, at that particular date and time, marking her first feat in this particular field.





Barbers were once surgeons, in addition to their other roles. The red on a barber’s pole is a reference to bloodletting. Barbatorem is both, a warrior of sorts, acting with surgical precision on whatever target he is directed at. A recurring theme in earlier stories suggests that he was sent against the summoner’s enemies, almost always powerful figures, and he brought them to ruin in the worst ways. He does not seek out mischief with those who summon him, but he takes advantage if one is offered. For this reason, he is a reasonably safe entity to summon if one takes care to follow instructions. He serves as a better deleterious sending against an enemy than he does as a boon-giver. This author and three acquaintances have summoned and used him without issue.

Barbatorem, before being sealed, tended to visit small settlements and sites of war, either during or after the altercation. Given his nature, it is hard to get eyewitness reports that corroborate his involvement in events. Those nearby tend to note a stench of rot, blood or burning hair, or a crude but exceptionally sharp and sturdy cutting instrument found in the aftermath of a grisly event, invariably lost a day or two later.

Physically, he rends his victims, and the surgeon aspect becomes evident in how he inflicts the maximum damage possible without ever killing them, though the methods change as his form does. He will mend the damage with an expert level of care that exceeds typical modern standards, if it means keeping the victim alive. Despite the blood shed in this process, his victims typically die by other means like starvation or dehydration, unable to move under their own power or communicate a request for aid, due to a lack of limbs, missing tongue and teeth or a lack of working sensory organs, and the isolation that follows an attack.

On a more abstract level, Barbatorem deals a deeper form of damage that is hard to encapsulate in this text. Rather than state the myriad ways he might harm his victims, this author would suggest a few key points to note, suggesting the wider variety of feats he can accomplish: It is believed that he can sever his target’s ability to access any higher plane, forever and irrevocably denying them whatever good things might await them after death, and he can remove any ability a mage has. He can evade barriers and a typical Wizard’s defenses. This in mind, he obviously serve as a suitable weapon if directed at most opposing practitioners.

Barbatorem takes no one shape, but tends to favor a particular form for several years at a time before unknown events prompt a change. Previous forms include: a bipedal sheep, largely bald but for sparse patches; a bloated man disfigured to a monstrous point by lash-wounds; a pair of children hand-in-hand; and a legless man on a horse. In every form, however, he carries a bladed instrument of some kind. He has been known to carry scissors, clippers or shears in more than half of the recorded cases. Death, mutilation and a lack of hair figure into each form in one way or another (see descriptions in individual entries for notes on these fronts). Ergo, the barber reference.

Barbatorem is mute, making dealings hard. He will see a contract up to seven times before refusing all further contracts. In this event, one can dismiss him and summon him again, but it must be to offer something else. In a dealing, he will offer expert skill in medicine, in exchange for enough blood to make the practitioner pass out – take care to avoid spilling any on the circle. He will offer to extend a practitioner’s natural lifespan by half-again or by twenty-five years, whichever is less, at the cost of the practitioner forever smelling blood, rot, and/or burning hair. He can offer to ensure that one’s blades never dull, in exchange for enough of the practitioner’s flayed skin to fill two cupped hands.

These spells get more fun the more powerful stuff your players are willing/risking to summon. A boring DM would simply go with 'well it kills you all', but if you have a seasoned DM who is interested, you can get a lot of mileage out of finding a fiend's true name and trying to exploit it.

[Sigreid]

Now that I've read them, it's clear that they aren't really meant to be used for controlled pets during the fight. Since the demon attacks whatever is within reach and the spell has a range of 60', 120 with spell sniper, clearly the intended use is to summon the demon in the middle of opponents at range and just let the thing go berserk.

[Vaz]

Now that I've read them, it's clear that they aren't really meant to be used for controlled pets during the fight. Since the demon attacks whatever is within reach and the spell has a range of 60', 120 with spell sniper, clearly the intended use is to summon the demon in the middle of opponents at range and just let the thing go berserk.

Demon Summons require you to make an attack roll?

[Sigreid]

Demon Summons require you to make an attack roll?

60 feet then. I couldn't remember if spell sniper doubled only attack roll spells or all spell ranges. Point still stands. It's a bomb, not a sniper rifle.

[Temperjoke]

You know, these demon/devil summoning spells could also be a way to get the MM version of an Imp/Quasit familiar, assuming your DM is willing to let you use it that way.

[Sigreid]

You know, these demon/devil summoning spells could also be a way to get the MM version of an Imp/Quasit familiar, assuming your DM is willing to let you use it that way.

True, though a deal would have to be made. Those kinds of deals rarely work out in the long run.

[Temperjoke]

True, though a deal would have to be made. Those kinds of deals rarely work out in the long run.

Of course, but that's all part of how a campaign works out sometimes.

[JackPhoenix]

Nice thing is that WotC has learned from previous summon spells and specifies who chooses what appears... the DM for Summon Lesser Demons and the caster for Summon Greater Demons and Infernal Calling

[othaero]

But really how much blood is needed. An average human can lose up to 3 to 4 pints (1.4 to 1.9 litres) and be "ok":smallwink:. But really needing blood is really a moot point the spell says,

As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. The circle is large enough to encompass your space. While the spell lasts, the summoned demons can’t cross the circle or harm it, and they can’t target anyone within it. Using the material component in this manner consumes it when the spell ends.

So really all blood does is create a space where you can trap a demon and learn it's true name (with your free command) and have a demon you already know it's true name ready for future castings.

[Unoriginal]

But really how much blood is needed. An average human can lose up to 3 to 4 pints (1.4 to 1.9 litres) and be "ok":smallwink:. But really needing blood is really a moot point the spell says,


So really all blood does is create a space where you can trap a demon and learn it's true name (with your free command) and have a demon you already know it's true name ready for future castings.

Actually the spell precise the circle is made around your own space. You're not trapping the demon, you're trapping everyone else with the demon.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You need humanoid blood killed in the past 24 hours. The chances of even a bloodthirsty wizard happening to meet that requirement when they didn't specifically prepare for it (such as storming an enemy stronghold) is frankly pretty low. Not even Dracula kills someone for their blood every day.

There's now a penalty for taking a long rest. The Wizard had time to kill some hostages and now you have to face a host of demons.

[Avonar]

A theoretical question regarding the blood. An Arcane Focus replaces non-monetary components, so RAW it could be used in place of the blood. Would you allow this, with the change being that you do not get the protective circle?

[the_david]

They don't, you may just cast the spell and run from the following mayhem. And "get any demon's true name through Arcana check" is incredibly boring and unispired solution. God forbid you'd have to actually roleplay in roleplaying game!

Player 1: Can I mak an Arcana check to see if I remember the true name of a demon before I start summoning one?

DM: Sure.

Player 1: I rolled a 25, do I remember a true name?

DM: Bob, you're pretty sure you heard an anekdote about Bob the Balor that one time at the wizard's housewarming party,

Player 1: I summon Bob the Balor!

DM: A Balor appears for your eyes. He looks down on you and says: "Funny thing, most people think my name is pronounced Bob. It's not actually. Ain't that funny?

Other players all curse player 1 for summoning but not being able to control Not-Bob the Balor.

[Unoriginal]

A theoretical question regarding the blood. An Arcane Focus replaces non-monetary components, so RAW it could be used in place of the blood. Would you allow this, with the change being that you do not get the protective circle?

You can definitively use an Arcane Focus in lieu of the blood. But yes, you can't get the circle with your focus.

[Chugger]

Cleric can lay down a magic circle - that could make use of demon summoning a lot better. Trouble is, that takes 1 minute to cast.

You can on an off day cast magic circle to keep things inside it. Summon a demon or devil and compel it by charm monster or the spell's effects or threats / intimidation to reveal its true name.

Now in combat summon that one and you have more control over it.

Look, if you're fighting one very large powerful monster summoning a demon is probably a terrible idea if it hates everything in the room. Odds are it's going to go after party members sooner rather than later.

But if you're fighting an organized group of badguys with casters and/or archers on the back row, summoning a demon on the back row is a crazy-good tactic in most cases.

[Pex]

So, looks like the various demon-summoning spells in Xanathar's will go much more smoothly for you if you know the demon's true name.

But I can't find any reference to known or even suggested methods for finding out something's true name. Is there anything about this in the game anywhere? Or is it something you need to work with your DM on?

It seems a bit sloppy to hang such an important aspect of a spell's mechanics on something there isn't any mechanical way to take advantage of, esepcially for a Warlock. The spells sound fun, but they're pretty dangerous, and I can't imagine casting them except in a truly desperate situation. And for a spell that I would avoid casting in nearly all circumstances, it just doesn't seem like a good choice for a Warlock with their limited spells known and even more limited spell slots...


Welcome to 5th edition.

I disagree it's a "5E thing" in this case. It's an adventure plot hook. The name could be discovered as part of a treasure hoard of a sort, found in an ancient tome. The patron of a fiendish warlock may give him the name as a reward for succeeding a task and/or to punish the named fiend into the service of a mortal at the mortal's whim. Maybe the named fiend is seeking redemption. His name is given to a righteous spellcaster to be called when needed as part of his penance.

[Unoriginal]

You can on an off day cast magic circle to keep things inside it. Summon a demon or devil and compel it by charm monster or the spell's effects or threats / intimidation to reveal its true name.

Now in combat summon that one and you have more control over it.


I disagree it's a "5E thing" in this case. It's an adventure plot hook. The name could be discovered as part of a treasure hoard of a sort, found in an ancient tome. The patron of a fiendish warlock may give him the name as a reward for succeeding a task and/or to punish the named fiend into the service of a mortal at the mortal's whim. Maybe the named fiend is seeking redemption. His name is given to a righteous spellcaster to be called when needed as part of his penance.

Or you can simply summon the Demon, order it to give you its name with the one command it must answer to, and then use the name to increase your control over it. Because the spell does allow you to do that.

Sure it technically means the Demon doesn't do something else the first turn, but it's a good investment and if the Demon gets hit a bit it's not a huge loss.

[Avonar]

Or you can simply summon the Demon, order it to give you its name with the one command it must answer to, and then use the name to increase your control over it. Because the spell does allow you to do that.

Sure it technically means the Demon doesn't do something else the first turn, but it's a good investment and if the Demon gets hit a bit it's not a huge loss.

Alternatively, you can also get the Charm Monster spell at the same level which is non-concentration. Potentially gives you an hour free of demon-sass and it may be easy to convince it to give you its name.

[Temperjoke]

Question, does the demon you summon disappear after the duration is up? If not, then:

1. Create an inverted Magic Circle (non-concentration, lasts 1 hour)
2. Create a circle of blood (just in case), cast your demon summoning spell of choice, summoning it inside the inverted magic circle
3. Cast Planar Binding on it (gives you control of the demon on a failed charisma save for 24 hours)

[Unoriginal]

Alternatively, you can also get the Charm Monster spell at the same level which is non-concentration. Potentially gives you an hour free of demon-sass and it may be easy to convince it to give you its name.

The MM explicitly says Charming a Demon is one way to get its name. Don't think it frees your form Demon-sass, though.

[Avonar]

The MM explicitly says Charming a Demon is one way to get its name. Don't think it frees your form Demon-sass, though.

Well, to be exact the demon would be friendly towards you. Might be some potential conflict due to the spell speficifying the demons attacking all non-demons:

"On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non—demons to the best of its ability."

I'm not sure whether this means it would attack you, friendly or not, would the spell override the charm condition in this case? I'm curious as this is exactly what my Warlock is intending to do in our next session.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

Revivify is a 3rd level spell.

Just have your two Lv. 5 goons takes turns killing each other each morning so you always have fresh blood to work the ritual with.



Monday
Sam


Tuesday
Dave


Wednesday
Sam

[Kuulvheysoon]

Revivify is a 3rd level spell.

Just have your two Lv. 5 goons takes turns killing each other each morning so you always have fresh blood to work the ritual with.



Monday
Sam


Tuesday
Dave


Wednesday
Sam




Make sure they're that one Barbarian subclass that makes revivify cost only the spell slot.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, to be exact the demon would be friendly towards you. Might be some potential conflict due to the spell speficifying the demons attacking all non-demons:

"On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non—demons to the best of its ability."

I'm not sure whether this means it would attack you, friendly or not, would the spell override the charm condition in this case? I'm curious as this is exactly what my Warlock is intending to do in our next session.

It attacks non-demons to the best of its ability. If you've charmed it, it's not able to attack you. No ability to attack you= it attack non-demons it can.

[the_brazenburn]

Research it where?

The Book of Vile Darkness is supposed to contain the true names of "any number of fiends". It also says that pages can be torn out of the book. The result is obvious: have some NPC mage's spellbook contain a few demon names.

[Sigreid]

The Book of Vile Darkness is supposed to contain the true names of "any number of fiends". It also says that pages can be torn out of the book. The result is obvious: have some NPC mage's spellbook contain a few demon names.

And mages like me would put a few fake names in there as a trap for any unauthorized users.

[the_brazenburn]

And mages like me would put a few fake names in there as a trap for any unauthorized users.

Well, that goes without saying.

[Temperjoke]

And mages like me would put a few fake names in there as a trap for any unauthorized users.

This is why it's important to corroborate your research with various sources. :P

[JackPhoenix]

The Book of Vile Darkness is supposed to contain the true names of "any number of fiends". It also says that pages can be torn out of the book. The result is obvious: have some NPC mage's spellbook contain a few demon names.

If only there was a rule for researching informations. Something that you could do when you're not actively adventuring. You could call it, I don't know, downtime activity, for example. It's not in core books, so perhaps it could be included in some new splat, for example, XGtE. It could be on page, let's say 132.

Oh wait.