Wild Shape Question

[sithlordnergal]

So I was wondering. Say my Druid Wild Shapes into a creature that has an ability with a DC, such as a Giant Octopus or Giant Spider. Does that DC remain the same no matter what level my Druid is, or do I add my Proficency Bonus to the DC.

I get that Wild Shape sort of becomes weaker until you can Wild Shape an unlimited number of times, but at the same time I feel like a DC 11 Con save is a bit weak for a high level Druid.

[nickl_2000]

The stats for the creature that you wildshape into are always the same, no matter what level Druid you are. So the attack bonuses/damage and DC of abilities always stays the same.

As you level you get access to higher CR beast shapes, so that is how it balances.


Also remember that you can keep concentration while wildshaped, so you can cast a spell then wildshape and keep it active.

[sithlordnergal]

The stats for the creature that you wildshape into are always the same, no matter what level Druid you are. So the attack bonuses/damage and DC of abilities always stays the same.

As you level you get access to higher CR beast shapes, so that is how it balances.


Also remember that you can keep concentration while wildshaped, so you can cast a spell then wildshape and keep it active.

Well, that seems to go against Sage Advice with the attack bonuses at the very least.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/

If I am reading that correctly, my proficency bonus would increase my attack bonus accordingly. Which is why I am wondering if it would affect the DC of something like a Pounce, since it is assumed I am proficent with it as soon as I Wild Shape.

Unless I am misinterpreting it and the druid is not assumed to be proficent as soon as they wild shape.

[Erys]

Well, that seems to go against Sage Advice with the attack bonuses at the very least.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/

If I am reading that correctly, my proficency bonus would increase my attack bonus accordingly. Which is why I am wondering if it would affect the DC of something like a Pounce, since it is assumed I am proficent with it as soon as I Wild Shape.

Unless I am misinterpreting it and the druid is not assumed to be proficent as soon as they wild shape.

Sorry, but no.

Unless you have are a race with a bite or claw attack naturally; you do not get your druids level of proficiency in those skills just because you wildshape. You get the animals level of proficiency and appropriate stat bonuses.

[Tanarii]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/[/url]

If I am reading that correctly, my proficency bonus would increase my attack bonus accordingly. Which is why I am wondering if it would affect the DC of something like a Pounce, since it is assumed I am proficent with it as soon as I Wild Shape.
You are not reading that correctly.

That says if your Druid Wildshaped into a Ape, and picked up their scimitar, they'd get to use their Scimitar proficiency.

If they attack with the beasts attack, they use whatever is in its stat block, since they are not proficient in beast's attacks.

(I have no idea if that matches the text of Wildshaped or not AFB.)

[sithlordnergal]

Ok, I was misinterpreting it then. Good to know. ^_^ I guess that answers my question then

[sithlordnergal]

So, bringing this back because I was looking over the Wild Shape ability and something caught my eyes.

"Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them."

Specifically the "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature."

Wouldn't that imply that I gain any proficencies that the beast has? Including proficiency with their natural attacks?

[Jerrykhor]

You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.

Wouldn't that imply that I gain any proficencies that the beast has? Including proficiency with their natural attacks?

You know about the distinction between attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws? Yeah, so here you retain your proficiency in ability checks (skills) and saves, not attacks.

[DarkKnightJin]

You know about the distinction between attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws? Yeah, so here you retain your proficiency in ability checks (skills) and saves, not attacks.

I'm pretty sure that they mean you gain proficiency with the beast's natural attacks. Otherwise you'd just be using a flat Str or Dex check to determine a hit or miss.

If that's not how it's supposed to work, that'd kinda make the Wildshape a bit of a lame option that would basically make you *weaker*.

"Sure, you can turn into a bear. But staying in humanoid form and swinging your Scimitar has a better chance of hitting and dealing damage."

I personally choose to see the beast's Natural Attacks as a 'skill'/weapon they are proficient in, and therefore apply the beast's or the Druid's Proficiency Bonus. Whichever one is higher at the time.

[Dalebert]

Unless you have are a race with a bite or claw attack naturally...

Ohhh, loophole? Tabaxi druid or lizardfolk druid?


Wouldn't that imply that I gain any proficencies that the beast has? Including proficiency with their natural attacks?

You do. You get the beast's proficiency; not your own, because you're not proficient in its attacks (unless maybe if you're a tabaxi or lizardfolk?). So you're back to using the beast's standard attack value because you have it's str, dex, and con and it's proficiency bonus.

Now if it's something that you are proficient in, you get your proficiency bonus. So say you have dex save prof, you would add your prof bonus to the creature's dex bonus to roll a save.

There are other loopholes. For instance, a monk druid can make unarmed strikes normally using the creatures str or dex (their choice). A monk dire wolf can be NICE. Trust me on this. :smallbiggrin: You retain all your class features so you keep things like extra attack as well (which replaces multi-attack. Doesn't stack with it.) There's another thread that talks about monk / druid combos and the cool things you can do.

[Tanarii]

If they attack with the beasts attack, they use whatever is in its stat block, since they are not proficient in beast's attacks.


Wouldn't that imply that I gain any proficencies that the beast has? Including proficiency with their natural attacks?


You do. You get the beast's proficiency; not your own, because you're not proficient in its attacks (unless maybe if you're a tabaxi or lizardfolk?). So you're back to using the beast's standard attack value because you have it's str, dex, and con and it's proficiency bonus.
Yup, looking back I was unclear. I meant since you are not proficient in natural attacks, you don't use your proficiency.

Instead you gain the beast form's proficiency, which is already included in the stat blocks. Similarly the beast form's proficiency is already included in the stat block for its saving throws and skills. You don't get to use the beast form's proficiency with saving throws and skills at your level of proficiency.