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Tyger
2007-08-18, 03:29 PM
OK, I know I am missing something here, and I know that I can count on you blokes to enlighten me as to what that is.

If you use a double weapon, effectively, it would cost two feats. One for the EWP and one for Two-Weapon Fighting. But if you do that, you have a single weapon that you can:

1) Fight as a TWFer at -2 -2
2) Fight as a THFer and get full 1.5 STR bonus and x2 on power attacks
3) Fight as a sword and boarder when you really need the bonus to AC.

I know that TWFing is generally considered sub-par, and I think the math bears that out. But if (via stances or maneuvers from ToB) you can up your damage or other effect on a per attack basis (like say the healing from Devoted Spirit) then getting in an extra attack every round might be worth it. And when you really want to shell out the damage, grab it with both hands and stab one end into the dragon.

The character that I am making it for is a Ruby Knight Vindicator / Cleric / Crusader at level 8. I was looking at gear and was buying four different weapons (because I don't want to go Spiked Chain) to cover all the bases, and then realized that a Guisarme (just for reach) and a Double Bladed Sword did all the above.

Thoughts?

Spiryt
2007-08-18, 03:34 PM
1) Fight as a TWFer at -2 -2
2) Fight as a THFer and get full 1.5 STR bonus and x2 on power attacks
3) Fight as a sword and boarder when you really need the bonus to AC.



Thoughts?


1) Sure. But it's easier to do by grabing light weapon to second hand. You won't waste a feat for 1d6 -> 1d8 improvement.
2)

An orc double axe is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
I believe you can use power attack only once.

3) I don't get this part.

kpenguin
2007-08-18, 03:34 PM
How do you fight as a sword and boarder? :smallconfused:

Tyger
2007-08-18, 03:38 PM
From the SRD:
Double Weapons
Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Emphasis mine. In other words, you can wield a double weapon with one hand, and thus use the other hand for a shield. You might be able to argue that you'd take the normal penalties for using a two handed weapon in one hand, but its possible... open to interpretation on the penalty, but obviously its RAW that you could wield it one handed.

Matthew
2007-08-18, 03:47 PM
That wording has often been contested, basically it's the result of a copy and paste from 3.0. It only applies now to Creatures using wrong sized weapons.

The main problem is that a Double Weapon acts as a One Handed and Light Weapon for Power Attack purposes, meaning that you can only Power Attack with one end when Two Weapon Fighting.

Attilargh
2007-08-18, 03:50 PM
That just means that using a double weapon one-handed is possible. You still can't use a two-handed weapon one-handed. Even though there are no one-handed double weapons in the PHB, all double weapons are not two-handed.

kpenguin
2007-08-18, 03:51 PM
Emphasis mine. In other words, you can wield a double weapon with one hand, and thus use the other hand for a shield. You might be able to argue that you'd take the normal penalties for using a two handed weapon in one hand, but its possible... open to interpretation on the penalty, but obviously its RAW that you could wield it one handed.

Well... the entry doesn't say anything about being able to wield a double weapon in one hand, just if a double weapon were wielded in one hand. Since the option of wielding a double weapon as a two-handed weapon is given, this could refer to wielding a smaller version, thus lowering the category from two-handed to one handed. The SRD is unclear on this, but the PHB is.


Double Weapons:Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting, page 160)

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it; most wizards who wield quarterstaffs use them in this way. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand (such as a human wielding a Small two-bladed sword) can’t use it as a double weapon —only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Spiryt
2007-08-18, 04:11 PM
Well, as we all know, TWF is pretty screwed in 3.5.

But if you want to play two-weapon fighter - why not. Find some good additional sources of damage (good old sneak attack is always nice).Take oversized two weapon fighting and Leap attack (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Leap_Attack,), there are many ways to achieve full attack after charge. ( I heard that Tome of Battle is very helpful to TWF) You can grab, lets say battle axe with one hand, and flail with second one. You will look kinda dangerous and you will be able to make trips with one hand and slash prone enemies with second.
Without Com.Expertise and Imroved Trip.

Double weapons are not only dumb ( dire flail and double axe - I'm taking about you), but are complete waste of feat.

You waste a feat for Orc double axe and in return you take minimaly better damage output than with battle axe and handaxe...

horseboy
2007-08-18, 04:52 PM
Why not just be a dwarf and get the urgroshes proficiency for free?

bairen
2007-08-18, 05:08 PM
Why not just use a quarterstaff? Can't beat it for simplicity and freeness.

Tyger
2007-08-18, 06:05 PM
Why not just be a dwarf and get the urgroshes proficiency for free?

Because he's human. :)

As for the quarterstaff, just doesn't fit thematically.

Looks like I'll be carrying more weapons than originally thought. Granted, that does fit the theme, so who knows.

Person_Man
2007-08-19, 01:49 PM
Double weapons are pretty useless. There are two real benefits I know of:

1) When you make a single attack, like a normal Standard Action attack or an Attack of Opportunity, you can use it as a two handed weapon. Then when you need to make a two weapon attack, like a normal TWF full attack, you can do so without having to switch weapons.

2) There are a few poorly worded powers and spells that effect "a weapon." By casting it on a double weapon, you effect both sides of it.

I actually think the second one might have been changed at some point. But I don't know where the citation is off the top of my head.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-08-19, 03:57 PM
Emphasis mine. In other words, you can wield a double weapon with one hand, and thus use the other hand for a shield. You might be able to argue that you'd take the normal penalties for using a two handed weapon in one hand, but its possible... open to interpretation on the penalty, but obviously its RAW that you could wield it one handed.

I think a two-bladed sword (for example) is sort of an unusual weapon for a number of reasons, not just because it's a sword-staff kind of thing. Ever wondered how someone sheathes it, or puts it away when they're not using it? If you just slung it on your back, it'd cut you while you walk. Otherwise, you'd have to hold it in one hand all the time, which would be awkward.

I could be wrong, but I believe a two-bladed sword can have its blades folded back, swiss-army-knife style. Probably set on a button trigger to snap open, as a switchblade. With this in mind, at the wielder's option, he could probably use only one of the sword's blades, and wield it single-handed normally. Sort of like Darth Maul did in his first fight with Qui-Gon; if you notice, he only uses one end of his saber that time.

Matthew
2007-08-19, 06:37 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe a two-bladed sword can have its blades folded back, swiss-army-knife style. Probably set on a button trigger to snap open, as a switchblade. With this in mind, at the wielder's option, he could probably use only one of the sword's blades, and wield it single-handed normally. Sort of like Darth Maul did in his first fight with Qui-Gon; if you notice, he only uses one end of his saber that time.

Wow, you just made an impractical and unlikely weapon even moreso... :smallwink:

Stormcrow
2007-08-19, 06:55 PM
Going to have to second that. Swiss-Army-Sword is a dud.

I've used a double ended sword for sword dancing on a few occasions and the answer is two leather sheaths go over the blades with a trap that buckles from one to the other. Generaly theres also a strap to go over the chest for travel.

They are quite impractical outside of performace. I think if you are prepared to spend two feats then TWF and OTWF are the way to go for sure. Means you can change your damage types aswell. Got to love quick draw.

calebcom
2007-08-20, 12:23 AM
Revenant Blade from Players Guide To Eberron or eberron players guide... Whatever


at 5th level both ends of your double bladed scimitar act as 2 handed weapons. Double power attack 1.5 strength the whole nine yards.