Cantrip/Non-Cantrip

[Pex]

I finally got my Xanathar book. Yay!

Anyway, there's a blurb that clarifies my confusion on casting a cantrip and non-cantrip in the same round. It was made clear to me there than in the PHB. The order between cantrip and non-cantrip doesn't matter. Either can be cast before the other. However, only the non-cantrip can be a bonus action. It is made more clear that if the bonus action spell is itself a cantrip, then the action spell can only be a cantrip, regardless of order. Someone may have mentioned that in my previous thread on this matter, but comprehension was lost on me if it was.

I think it's a dumb distinction to make, but there it is.

[Jerrykhor]

Yeah its really dumb. I also hate how Wotc are so restrictive on cantrips in general, like how Warlocks and Sorcerers can swap out a spell when they level up, but not cantrips. Druids and Clerics can prepare any combination of spells but not cantrips, and Wizards cannot learn new cantrips. Its really, really, really dumb.

[Eradis]

I finally got my Xanathar book. Yay!

Anyway, there's a blurb that clarifies my confusion on casting a cantrip and non-cantrip in the same round. It was made clear to me there than in the PHB. The order between cantrip and non-cantrip doesn't matter. Either can be cast before the other. However, only the non-cantrip can be a bonus action. It is made more clear that if the bonus action spell is itself a cantrip, then the action spell can only be a cantrip, regardless of order. Someone may have mentioned that in my previous thread on this matter, but comprehension was lost on me if it was.

I think it's a dumb distinction to make, but there it is.

You can cast two spell using your bonus action in the 5th? How come? I guess I missed that part in the rules.

[Jerrykhor]

You can cast two spell using your bonus action in the 5th? How come? I guess I missed that part in the rules.

Not by default, but if you have something that enables it, like Sorcerer's Quicken metamagic. Some cantrips are bonus action cast by default, but its rare.

[Rysto]

I think it's a dumb distinction to make, but there it is.

The only thing that I can figure is that they're trying to rein in Sorcerers. If you could cast a bonus action cantrip along with a regular action spell, then it's far more efficient to quicken a cantrip (for 1SP) and cast the leveled spell as your regular action. Under the current rules you have to quicken the leveled spell for 1SP/level.

Personally I don't see the point -- it's not like Sorcerers are grossly overpowered and need to be kept in check -- but that's really the only case where it appears to matter, so I presume that's why.

[Jerrykhor]

Have they ruled on that or clarified that somewhere (as cantrips are zero level spells)?

Its quite clear. The text for that is usually under 'Spells known of 1st level or higher', so cantrips are not included.

[Pex]

The only thing that I can figure is that they're trying to rein in Sorcerers. If you could cast a bonus action cantrip along with a regular action spell, then it's far more efficient to quicken a cantrip (for 1SP) and cast the leveled spell as your regular action. Under the current rules you have to quicken the leveled spell for 1SP/level.

Personally I don't see the point -- it's not like Sorcerers are grossly overpowered and need to be kept in check -- but that's really the only case where it appears to matter, so I presume that's why.

Quicken is always 2 points regardless of spell level.

[furby076]

Im kind of annoyed the release of xanthars is 21st, yet people have had it for a few weeks now

[Kuulvheysoon]

Im kind of annoyed the release of xanthars is 21st, yet people have had it for a few weeks now

At least you're getting it that early - out here in the middle of Nowhere, Amazon will be getting it to me no earlier than the 27th of November.

I'm going to let me players do partial rebuilds: if you want to change something out, tell me. If I remember it, you've probably used it enough times to be core to your character. If I didn't know that you had it, feel free to swap it out.

[bid]

You can cast two spell using your bonus action in the 5th? How come? I guess I missed that part in the rules.
Hex?

And... a cantrip is a spell. So a BA cantrip is a BA spell.

[MeeposFire]

The most common and easiest version of this is to use some classic druid and cleric spells.

A cleric could cast spiritual weapon as a bonus action and then could only cast a cantrip if he wanted to cast a spell (or cast a cantrip and then spiritual weapon). If the cleric casts bless then no bonus action spell can be cast at all.

The druid casts shillelagh. The only spells that the druid can cast with his action is a cantrip. Just because the bonus action spell is a cantrip does not change the written rule that if you are casting a bonus action spell and another spell with your action then the action spell has to be a cantrip.

I use a houserule to fix this because to me it is a small problem.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'd rule it to be simple to remember:
If you want to cast 2 things on your turn, it can be 1 leveled spell and 1 cantrip. Order doesn't matter.

And Reaction spells are exempt from this, because I don't need that kind of bookkeeping on top of normal DM duties.

But that's my take on this particular mess.

[MeeposFire]

I'd rule it to be simple to remember:
If you want to cast 2 things on your turn, it can be 1 leveled spell and 1 cantrip. Order doesn't matter.

And Reaction spells are exempt from this, because I don't need that kind of bookkeeping on top of normal DM duties.

But that's my take on this particular mess.

That is close to my houserule. Mine is...

If you cast a bonus action spell on your turn and any other spell on your turn then at least one of those spells must be a cantrip.

[DarkKnightJin]

That is close to my houserule. Mine is...

If you cast a bonus action spell on your turn and any other spell on your turn then at least one of those spells must be a cantrip.

I added the Reaction thing just to have that cleared up as well.
I know by RAW, you aren't allowed a Reaction spell of you cast a Bonus Action spell. And I think that's a bunch of Flumph droppings.

[MeeposFire]

I added the Reaction thing just to have that cleared up as well.
I know by RAW, you aren't allowed a Reaction spell of you cast a Bonus Action spell. And I think that's a bunch of Flumph droppings.

Remember though it only affects that turn so yes you cannot cast shield on your turn against that opportunity attack but you could still cast it later that round on an enemies turn that attacks you.

Though I agree that is one of the things I was trying to fix with my houserule.

[Hyde]

My houserule is "If you cast more than one spell in a round, only one of them can be higher than 2nd level a cantrip"

There is the question of Eldritch Knights and action surges, but it hasn't really come up.

[DarkKnightJin]

My houserule is "If you cast more than one spell in a round, only one of them can be higher than 2nd level a cantrip"

There is the question of Eldritch Knights and action surges, but it hasn't really come up.

I believe Action Surges are the only way of getting 2 leveled spells off in a single round.
But this practice tends to be extremely situational, and reserved for when you have slots to burn and something absolutely, positively MUST die right now.

[Rysto]

Quicken is always 2 points regardless of spell level.

Apparently I confused it with Twin. Okay, I'm even more confused about why the rule is constructed the way that it is.

[Tanarii]

Who does this affect?

Anyone who casts a bonus action leveled spell can only cast a Cantrip for their action, but the order doesn't really matter.

A sorcerer can Quicken either the spell or the Cantrip, but which is which doesn't matter. They can still only cast one Cantrip and one leveled spell. Which is which isn't very relevant, so it might as well be the leveled spell. So it doesn't really affect them.

The only affect I can see on this is a Druid that wants to cast Shillelagh, since that must always cast Shillelagh as the bonus action spell. That means they can never Shillelagh and cast a leveled spell in the same round.

Other than the Druid, is there a special need to know which is the bonus action and which is the regular action, somlong as you follow the rule of either 1 leveled + 1 Cantrip or 2 Cantrips?

[Pex]

Who does this affect?

Anyone who casts a bonus action leveled spell can only cast a Cantrip for their action, but the order doesn't really matter.

A sorcerer can Quicken either the spell or the Cantrip, but which is which doesn't matter. They can still only cast one Cantrip and one leveled spell. Which is which isn't very relevant, so it might as well be the leveled spell. So it doesn't really affect them.

The only affect I can see on this is a Druid that wants to cast Shillelagh, since that must always cast Shillelagh as the bonus action spell. That means they can never Shillelagh and cast a leveled spell in the same round.

Other than the Druid, is there a special need to know which is the bonus action and which is the regular action, somlong as you follow the rule of either 1 leveled + 1 Cantrip or 2 Cantrips?

The Grave Cleric can cast Spare The Dying as a bonus action at a range of 30 ft, so they're definitely trying to curtail being overpowered there.

[Tanarii]

The Grave Cleric can cast Spare The Dying as a bonus action at a range of 30 ft, so they're definitely trying to curtail being overpowered there.
Lol

I was thinking more in terms of things that trigger or have an effect based on if a spell is cast as an Action vs a Bonus action. For example, if a Sorcerer had a special feature which only works on leveled spells cast as an Action, but not as a Bonus Action, it would make a huge difference if they used Quicken on their one leveled spell or one Cantrip they were casting.

[Pex]

Lol

I was thinking more in terms of things that trigger or have an effect based on if a spell is cast as an Action vs a Bonus action. For example, if a Sorcerer had a special feature which only works on leveled spells cast as an Action, but not as a Bonus Action, it would make a huge difference if they used Quicken on their one leveled spell or one Cantrip they were casting.

A Sorcerer can't do Twin Disintegrate Quicken Acid Splash for example. The rule prevents the Sorcerer from casting Quicken Cantrip/Action Metamagic Level Spell or Action Metamagic Level Spell/Quicken Cantrip on his turn. It could matter depending on the Metamagic and/or Level Spell. All casters cannot cast Bonus Action Cantrip/Action Level Spell, but Sorcerers are hurt more because of the Metamagic possibilities. Maybe the designers thought that would be too powerful?