You can learn one Summon Monster spell. Which one?

[Hiro Quester]

Like it says on the sticker.

I think maybe one summoning spell might be a good idea for the front-line sorcerer/swiftblade/unseen seer I'm building. Summoning a flanking buddy/minion might be a useful thing to be able to do in some situations.

Especially if I can cast it during a time stop. I often begin the time-stop by casting Arcane Spellsurge, which speeds up casting spells. I need an option for a full-round spell that becomes a standard actions with arcane spellsurge.

So, which level of Summon Monster to learn? Which gets the best (non-evil) monsters for this role? Which spell has good variety of minions that might be useful during or maybe also after combat (at this level they last 22 rounds).

[CharonsHelper]

Summon Monster IX

[Hiro Quester]

Summon Monster IX

Thanks. But why?

[Coventry]

Maximum Flexibility.

You can chose from any summon monster list of a lower level if you want to.

[Hiro Quester]

That's also maximum expensiveness, though. 9th level spells known is premium territory.

Anything a bit cheaper, around mid-range?

[Eldariel]

Most of the SLA-bots start from SMV so SMVII to enable 1d4+1 of those might work. Sadly you of course miss out on some really nice SLA spammers (Leonal from SMIX has Wall of Force at will for instance), but you has a decent set of utility, healing, blasting, etc. at SMVII.

Though you have to use 1d3 SMVI summons a fair bit (Bralani in particular stands out); to that end, SMVIII would be vindicated too.

[Thurbane]

I've sometimes used a house rule in my game that for spontaneous casters, if you know any Summon Monster spell, and have the Heighten Spell feat, you can use up any spell slot to cast the equivalent Summon Monster spell.

For instance, if your Sorcerer knows Summon Monster I and has Heighten Spell, he can expend a 4th level slot to cast Summon Monster IV, without actually "knowing" it.

[theAui]

SM III and SM VI are my personal sweet spots. If you just need the utility and sometimes a good flanking buddy, SM III has all you need. The poor Celestial Monkeys can spring Traps: They even have hands to fiddle with things. Ravens can talk (int 3 through template) and fly, so they are nice scouts. Fiendish apes can actually tank a little.

Summon Monster 6 has awesome monsters. Google the Summoners desk reference, you should swap some things. You will want the Artaaglith, its a level 5 Cleric. The Elementite Swarms are great and the Black Abishai is my Malconvoker's Favorite.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks. I'll check those out.

I do have the Summoner's Desk Reference open. It's just hard to choose when I have little experience of how these summons work in practice (my closest experience in playing a summoner druid, but SNA is a very different pool to draw from).

And that guide is written as "how to get the best from SMV when you cast it" rather than "Here's why SMV (or 1d4 SMIV) is a better option for tanking, flanking and utility"

[Eldariel]

Frankly, it really depends. Generally you'll use lower level SMs for utility (Thoqqua drilling, Earth Elemental/Xorn scouting, etc.) while higher level SMs are there for the SLAs (things like Wall of Ice from Bone Devil are really powerful readied actions to ruin attacks/movement/spells by blocking LOE/LOS), and something like Avorals can be a great Dispel bot to disable enemy magic items (Arcane Sight to determine targets, hit the low CL ones).

Healing is something arcanists can only really access this way; Bralani Eladrins bring 2xCure Serious Wounds while SMVIII Hollyphant brings Heal and Raise Dead. Movanic Deva (SMVII) brings Death Ward at will along with other nice stuff so use as needed.


For flanking and aid another, just take the largest number of the tankiest little buggers you can find; auras and gazes are a nice bonus.

[Luccan]

I'm clearly not following some logic here: if you could choose any of them, why would it not be Summon Monster IX?

[Crake]

Summon monster 7 lets you summon a movanic deva which has a multitude of curative SLAs, including 1/day raise dead, which means free raise deads without any material components. They also get commune 1/day as well, so you can also use them to solve some of your dilemmas, assuming their god knows the answer. That, and they're not half bad combatants for a summon, having a fly speed and a decent attack.

Pretty much the best summon for it's level if you ask me.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm clearly not following some logic here: if you could choose any of them, why would it not be Summon Monster IX?

My issue is value rather than raw power. Above 7th level are some awesome alternative spells. And I only get to learn a few.

E.g. I can only know one 9th, and can only cast 4/day. So SM IX competes with things like Time stop and choose destiny. Is it so good you would choose it as your only 9th level Spell?

Below 7th I can can learn a few more, and cast more per day. There might be room for learning a SM from 3-7th levels. It means not learning an alternative spell of that level.

Is there a level of SM that offers excellent value, in that the versatility and power of the spell makes it worth not learning an alternative spell at that level?

E.g. Is learning SM VII worth not learning forcecage? Is it worth it to learn SMV instead of telekinesis? I'm considering Great Thunderclap at level 3. Is SM III a better choice?

[theAui]

My issue is value rather than raw power. Above 7th level are some awesome alternative spells. And I only get to learn a few.

E.g. I can only know one 9th, and can only cast 4/day. So SM IX competes with things like Time stop and choose destiny. Is it so good you would choose it as your only 9th level Spell?

Below 7th I can can learn a few more, and cast more per day. There might be room for learning a SM from 3-7th levels. It means not learning an alternative spell of that level.

Is there a level of SM that offers excellent value, in that the versatility and power of the spell makes it worth not learning an alternative spell at that level?

E.g. Is learning SM VII worth not learning forcecage? Is it worth it to learn SMV instead of telekinesis? I'm considering Great Thunderclap at level 3. Is SM III a better choice?

Yeah. You shouldn't kick out level 9 spells. Forcecage seems a pretty good thing to kick out since summons can definetely substitute for that. Summon a few Constrictor snakes or Monstrous centepedes with insane grapple mods and the bad guys are kept in place. Also: did you see the material component cost of Forcecage? It's not spammable, therefore it is rather wizard stuff than sorcerer goodie. Btw: if you don't have greater shadow evocation, take it now. It can do a forcecage without material component cost and much more (Shadow Contingency etc.).

[Luccan]

My issue is value rather than raw power. Above 7th level are some awesome alternative spells. And I only get to learn a few.

E.g. I can only know one 9th, and can only cast 4/day. So SM IX competes with things like Time stop and choose destiny. Is it so good you would choose it as your only 9th level Spell?

Below 7th I can can learn a few more, and cast more per day. There might be room for learning a SM from 3-7th levels. It means not learning an alternative spell of that level.

Is there a level of SM that offers excellent value, in that the versatility and power of the spell makes it worth not learning an alternative spell at that level?

E.g. Is learning SM VII worth not learning forcecage? Is it worth it to learn SMV instead of telekinesis? I'm considering Great Thunderclap at level 3. Is SM III a better choice?

Ah, I didn't read the post properly and assumed this was a theoretical. In that case, yeah, you have better ways to spend your spells known at high levels. You'll definitely want to aim for a level at which you can get real utility out of the spell, then, but without compromising a higher spell slot.

[Eldariel]

SMVII was the lowest I'd consider for the access to Monadic Deva with all that entails, combined with the access to some multiple good SLAs. SMVIII would be optimal but that depends on what it's competing with. On the flipside, for simple trap springing and flanking and such, SMIII is sufficient. But might as well bring the action economy/off-list stuff from a higher level slot if you're a very high level character. Having innate access to Heal from SMVIII for example can be tremendously useful when push comes to shove and you just need the effect immediately and your allies are incapacitated or whatever. Summons can also be cast before teleporting in on someone as extra muscle/pre-combat prep.

[khadgar567]

you know depending on al,ingment any spell summons either balor or solar is good just use it to start chain gateing more then rule the world or force them to read book of damned for pleasure

[Hiro Quester]

Also: did you see the material component cost of Forcecage? It's not spammable, therefore it is rather wizard stuff than sorcerer goodie. Btw: if you don't have greater shadow evocation, take it now. It can do a forcecage without material component cost and much more (Shadow Contingency etc.).

I didn't notice the material component. thanks. I'm mostly considering Forcecage as something that can be used during time stop, an combined with Dimensional Anchor to capture and isolate a BBEG.

But a few summoned constrictor snakes could do a similar job.

I have considered the Shadow... spells. But evocation isn't seem that worth it for our high-level game (party is level 21). the bad guys all have high saves and SR. Giving them also a will save to disbelieve just adds to the likelihood of wasting a spell.

Shadow conjuration seemed a better option, for spells that don't affect the bad guys directly (Phantom steed, Crate Magic tattoo).

But now I look there are many evocation spells that are not attacks on bad guys, that their willing is irrelevant to. Worth thinking about.

[Eladrinblade]

It won't help you flank, but whichever level one gives you lantern archons. I recently built a 20th level clerid/bard, and that was the only one I gave her.

[ApologyFestival]

It won't help you flank, but whichever level one gives you lantern archons. I recently built a 20th level clerid/bard, and that was the only one I gave her.
I'd have to go with this one: summon monster 4. Lantern Archons give the caster access to magic circle against evil and tongues, and a limited form of at-will teleportation. Everything else in their kit is also situationally useful. A party with a character like the aforementioned cleric/bard can also make an archon's two touch attacks per round do some real work.

Most importantly: assuming standard progression, summon monster 4 starts to be useful at character level 7. In most games, summon monster 9 does nothing for a seventh-level character.

[Deophaun]

SMIII. Because if your problem cannot be with Celestial Monkeys, you're not using enough.

[Hellpyre]

worth it for our high-level game (party is level 21).

If you have the WBL of an Epic character at your disposal, I'd sink some GP in knowstones and skirt the spells known limitation from being an issue.

[radthemad4]

Like it says on the sticker.

I think maybe one summoning spell might be a good idea for the front-line sorcerer/swiftblade/unseen seer I'm building. Summoning a flanking buddy/minion might be a useful thing to be able to do in some situations.

Would you be okay with making a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer? There are some nice summoning ACFs for Conjuration Specialist Wizards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants), one of which lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells into lower level summon monster spells. If Dragon Magazine is allowed, the Nexus Method feat from Dragon #319 is strictly better than the Spontaneous Summoning ACF, as it lets you spontaneously convert any prepared spell into a summon monster of equal level rather than of a lower level.

[Hiro Quester]

I’m going with SMVII.
With an avorals or huge elemental, or 1d3 brelani eladrins, large elementals, or gargantuan fiendish centipedes, or1d4+1 fiendish giant crocodiles, that covers a lot of bases.

[Eldariel]

I’m going with SMVII.
With an avorals or huge elemental, or 1d3 brelani eladrins, large elementals, or gargantuan fiendish centipedes, or1d4+1 fiendish giant crocodiles, that covers a lot of bases.

Don't forger Bone Devils! An at-will Wall is very strong indeed.