Is this guy Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic?

[RoboEmperor]

1. He values freedom above all else. Everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
2. He violently opposes and intentionally breaks the laws of society and government that opposes his views on freedom. For example, if there is a law banning certain types of food/drugs/alchemy in a city because of religious reasons or a law saying you must spend an hour everyday worshiping the current king/emperor as your deity, he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him. To be clear, he doesn't mind religious people doing their own religious thing, but he does mind religious people in power forcing their customs on normal atheist citizens or citizens of different faiths via laws.
3. He may not follow laws but he follows instructions to the letter. For example, when you remove your USB from your computer, he's the type that will always Safely Remove Hardware instead of just yanking it out. He follows recipes to the letter. If you stray from instructions he will beat you with whatever he is holding until you follow the instructions.
4. Makes an ungodly amount of plans. In fact he does not do a single action without planning it beforehand. You could say 90% of his time is spent planning, revising those plans, and creating backup plans.
5. Makes an ungodly amount of algorithms. You tell him to do something, he will always attempt to create an algorithm of it until he succeeds. For example, when using a sword, instead of just attacking the guy he will create diagrams of the opponent's current stance and create a list of possible openings for that stance and a list of conditions for each opening. For example, his train of thought will be "The guy is in stance B which gives him openings A B C & D, since we are in situation F with environmental factors E, attacking opening B is the best course of action."
6. Extremely organized. When ordered to disassemble something, he will systematically label every part he removes, where they go, and document every action he does so that re-assembly simply becomes following instructions instead of doing it from memory.
7. Terrible improviser. Although he is an extremely gifted planner, if something that he didn't plan for happens, he panics, falls apart, and messes everything up.

His beliefs are Chaotic, but his personality and actions are definitely lawful. I don't think he's neutral because his beliefs and personality are in the extreme, but then again it's a mix of both extremes.

Would you say this guy is Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic?

edit:
8. He views instructions like safety instructions, cooking instructions, operation instructions, etc. are from a respectable source so he follows them to the letter, but he does not respect lawmakers and politicians/government officials which is why he doesn't respect laws and doesn't follow them.

[AnimeTheCat]

1. He values freedom above all else. Everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
2. He violently opposes and intentionally breaks the laws of society and government that opposes his views on freedom. For example, if there is a law banning certain types of food/drugs/alchemy in a city because of religious reasons or a law saying you must spend an hour everyday worshiping the current king/emperor as your deity, he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him.
3. He may not follow laws but he follows instructions to the letter. For example, when you remove your USB from your computer, he's the type that will always Safely Remove Hardware instead of just yanking it out. He follows recipes to the letter. If you stray from instructions he will beat you with whatever he is holding until you follow the instructions.
4. Makes an ungodly amount of plans. In fact he does not do a single action without planning it beforehand. You could say 90% of his time is spent planning, revising those plans, and creating backup plans.
5. Makes an ungodly amount of algorithms. You tell him to do something, he will always attempt to create an algorithm of it until he succeeds. For example, when using a sword, instead of just attacking the guy he will create diagrams of the opponent's current stance and create a list of possible openings for that stance and a list of conditions for each opening. For example, his train of thought will be "The guy is in stance B which gives him openings A B C & D, since we are in situation F with environmental factors E, attacking opening B is the best course of action."
6. Extremely organized. When ordered to disassemble something, he will systematically label every part he removes, where they go, and document every action he does so that re-assembly simply becomes following instructions instead of doing it from memory.
7. Terrible improviser. Although he is an extremely gifted planner, if something that he didn't plan for happens, he panics, falls apart, and messes everything up.

His beliefs are Chaotic, but his personality and actions are definitely lawful. I don't think he's neutral because his beliefs and personality are in the extreme, but then again it's a mix of both extremes.

Would you say this guy is Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic?

Most of those things (3-7) are simply characteristics that are neither lawful or chaotic in nature. They're not even neutral. They really don't mean anything in relation to a lawful, neutral, or chaotic nature. Points 1 and 2 are pretty much precisely chaotic.

Since points 1 and 2 are applicable and points 3-7 are non-applicable, the character would be chaotic.

[Jack_Simth]

1. He values freedom above all else. Everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
2. He violently opposes and intentionally breaks the laws of society and government that opposes his views on freedom. For example, if there is a law banning certain types of food/drugs/alchemy in a city because of religious reasons or a law saying you must spend an hour everyday worshiping the current king/emperor as your deity, he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him. To be clear, he doesn't mind religious people doing their own religious thing, but he does mind religious people in power forcing their customs on normal atheist citizens or citizens of different faiths via laws.
3. He may not follow laws but he follows instructions to the letter. For example, when you remove your USB from your computer, he's the type that will always Safely Remove Hardware instead of just yanking it out. He follows recipes to the letter. If you stray from instructions he will beat you with whatever he is holding until you follow the instructions.
4. Makes an ungodly amount of plans. In fact he does not do a single action without planning it beforehand. You could say 90% of his time is spent planning, revising those plans, and creating backup plans.
5. Makes an ungodly amount of algorithms. You tell him to do something, he will always attempt to create an algorithm of it until he succeeds. For example, when using a sword, instead of just attacking the guy he will create diagrams of the opponent's current stance and create a list of possible openings for that stance and a list of conditions for each opening. For example, his train of thought will be "The guy is in stance B which gives him openings A B C & D, since we are in situation F with environmental factors E, attacking opening B is the best course of action."
6. Extremely organized. When ordered to disassemble something, he will systematically label every part he removes, where they go, and document every action he does so that re-assembly simply becomes following instructions instead of doing it from memory.
7. Terrible improviser. Although he is an extremely gifted planner, if something that he didn't plan for happens, he panics, falls apart, and messes everything up.

His beliefs are Chaotic, but his personality and actions are definitely lawful. I don't think he's neutral because his beliefs and personality are in the extreme, but then again it's a mix of both extremes.

Would you say this guy is Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic?

Chaotic, because he apparently doesn't mind the hypocrisy in the inherent contradiction between 2 and 3 (or is that 1 and 3? Regardless...). He hates laws that force people to do stuff that doesn't hurt anyone... but will himself hurt people who don't follow instructions? The guy's rather batty.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Since points 1 and 2 are applicable and points 3-7 are non-applicable, the character would be chaotic.
Agreed.

In addition, because "he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him", he is non-good, likely evil.

[RoboEmperor]

Chaotic, because he apparently doesn't mind the hypocrisy in the inherent contradiction between 2 and 3 (or is that 1 and 3? Regardless...). He hates laws that force people to do stuff that doesn't hurt anyone... but will himself hurt people who don't follow instructions? The guy's rather batty.

I guess it's about the source? If I use modern examples, he respects the instruction on the vacuum cleaner saying "don't remove the plug by pulling the cord. Remove it by pulling the plug" or other safety instructions because he believes the engineers who wrote those instructions know what they are doing.

Laws however, he views them as the byproduct of corrupt officials conspiring to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

So I guess he only follows laws that he views are from a respectable source? And what he views respectable depends on his chaotic views.


Agreed.

In addition, because "he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him", he is non-good, likely evil.

He views those law enforcers as evil, and since destroying evil is good in d&d... I think he can be good.

[hamishspence]

Sounds like an evil version of Elan's mum - she was Chaotic Good, but over-keen on Excessively Complicated Plans:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html

A trait her LE son Nale inherited.


He views those law enforcers as evil, and since destroying evil is good in d&d... I think he can be good.

What matters isn't whether the character thinks that they're evil - what matters is whether they are, and whether this was a reasonable thing to think.

Plenty of Evil characters believe their enemies to be evil, and themselves to be good. They are wrong.

[RoboEmperor]

Plenty of Evil characters believe their enemies to be evil, and themselves to be good. They are wrong.

Yup, you're right in d&d, so i guess his good/neutral/evil alignment is dependent on whether the vast majority of the guards are good/neutral/evil.

[hamishspence]

And even when guards happen to be evil - what they're doing may not be, and they may not qualify as "deserving of death" (at least, using Eberron's interpretation of alignment, which may be semi-valid in standard D&D too).

Thus, killing them for "trying to enforce the law" may still qualify as Evil act, and Murder.

[Jopustopin]

Thus, killing them for "trying to enforce the law" may still qualify as Evil act, and Murder.

The guy sounds like a standard sociopath. He has extreme beliefs that puts him well outside of normal society. We're talking about a guy who will kill you for pulling the "Do not pull" tag off a new couch and then wait for the lawman to show up to enforce that law and kill him too.

Anyway, I've come to believe the alignment system is for healthy normal functioning individuals (save in 2nd edition where Chaotic Neutral was specifically called out at the domain of madmen). With that said, someone with a chaotic neutral alignment could be OCD and have ridiculous rules they must follow themselves. The enforcing the rules onto other people IS NOT outside the hallmark of chaotic leaders. Specifically Chaotic Evil leaders will often rule by force and have no qualms with hypocrisy.

[Red Fel]

Lawful Evil. The answer is Lawful Evil.

Ugh, I have to actually answer? Fine.


1. He values freedom above all else. Everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Tends strongly Chaotic, slightly Good.


2. He violently opposes and intentionally breaks the laws of society and government that opposes his views on freedom. For example, if there is a law banning certain types of food/drugs/alchemy in a city because of religious reasons or a law saying you must spend an hour everyday worshiping the current king/emperor as your deity, he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him. To be clear, he doesn't mind religious people doing their own religious thing, but he does mind religious people in power forcing their customs on normal atheist citizens or citizens of different faiths via laws.

Tends strongly Chaotic, slightly Evil.


3. He may not follow laws but he follows instructions to the letter. For example, when you remove your USB from your computer, he's the type that will always Safely Remove Hardware instead of just yanking it out. He follows recipes to the letter. If you stray from instructions he will beat you with whatever he is holding until you follow the instructions.

No charge. Admittedly, also a profoundly stupid character trait, but mostly no charge. (Seriously, if you stray from the instructions he will beat you? How does that not contradict his "don't force people to do things your way" philosophy?)


4. Makes an ungodly amount of plans. In fact he does not do a single action without planning it beforehand. You could say 90% of his time is spent planning, revising those plans, and creating backup plans.

No charge.


5. Makes an ungodly amount of algorithms. You tell him to do something, he will always attempt to create an algorithm of it until he succeeds. For example, when using a sword, instead of just attacking the guy he will create diagrams of the opponent's current stance and create a list of possible openings for that stance and a list of conditions for each opening. For example, his train of thought will be "The guy is in stance B which gives him openings A B C & D, since we are in situation F with environmental factors E, attacking opening B is the best course of action."

No charge.


6. Extremely organized. When ordered to disassemble something, he will systematically label every part he removes, where they go, and document every action he does so that re-assembly simply becomes following instructions instead of doing it from memory.

No charge.


7. Terrible improviser. Although he is an extremely gifted planner, if something that he didn't plan for happens, he panics, falls apart, and messes everything up.

No charge.


8. He views instructions like safety instructions, cooking instructions, operation instructions, etc. are from a respectable source so he follows them to the letter, but he does not respect lawmakers and politicians/government officials which is why he doesn't respect laws and doesn't follow them.

No charge.

Simply put, he strongly believes in personal freedoms, but suffers from paralysis by analysis. Believing that anything worth doing is worth doing right is not a Lawful trait; following the instructions or making a plan is not a Lawful trait. He is a free spirit who has to do things properly. One of those tendencies is an alignment trait, and the other is a personality trait.

Chaotic.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright so the consensus is chaotic.

As someone mentioned laws and instructions are basically the same thing, and it's weird for someone to follow instructions but now laws. Since this character creates instructions for everything he does and never strays from them (although he does create new instructions or alter existing instructions if they don't work) I figured he has strong lawful qualities but I guess that isn't the case.

Chaotic it is.

Oh and as for the beating thing. You know when you're assembling a furniture? Some guys follow instructions step by step, some guys just grab whatever is in front of them and make em fit, possibly using outside materials to aid in the process like additional nails or glue, and some guys follow the instructions but not to the letter. They grab whatever is in front of them and look up the instructions for that part and assemble the thing in a different order than the instructions instructed them to. Doing the latter two will make him freak out and beat these people until they disassemble whatever they assembled and start from the beginning in an orderly fashion. If you think this is neurotic/OCD, it is.

[lbuttitta]

1. He values freedom above all else. Everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
2. He violently opposes and intentionally breaks the laws of society and government that opposes his views on freedom. For example, if there is a law banning certain types of food/drugs/alchemy in a city because of religious reasons or a law saying you must spend an hour everyday worshiping the current king/emperor as your deity, he will go out of his way to defy these laws and destroy any law enforcers who try to force their will on him. To be clear, he doesn't mind religious people doing their own religious thing, but he does mind religious people in power forcing their customs on normal atheist citizens or citizens of different faiths via laws.
3. He may not follow laws but he follows instructions to the letter. For example, when you remove your USB from your computer, he's the type that will always Safely Remove Hardware instead of just yanking it out. He follows recipes to the letter. If you stray from instructions he will beat you with whatever he is holding until you follow the instructions.
4. Makes an ungodly amount of plans. In fact he does not do a single action without planning it beforehand. You could say 90% of his time is spent planning, revising those plans, and creating backup plans.
5. Makes an ungodly amount of algorithms. You tell him to do something, he will always attempt to create an algorithm of it until he succeeds. For example, when using a sword, instead of just attacking the guy he will create diagrams of the opponent's current stance and create a list of possible openings for that stance and a list of conditions for each opening. For example, his train of thought will be "The guy is in stance B which gives him openings A B C & D, since we are in situation F with environmental factors E, attacking opening B is the best course of action."
6. Extremely organized. When ordered to disassemble something, he will systematically label every part he removes, where they go, and document every action he does so that re-assembly simply becomes following instructions instead of doing it from memory.
7. Terrible improviser. Although he is an extremely gifted planner, if something that he didn't plan for happens, he panics, falls apart, and messes everything up.

His beliefs are Chaotic, but his personality and actions are definitely lawful. I don't think he's neutral because his beliefs and personality are in the extreme, but then again it's a mix of both extremes.

Would you say this guy is Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic?

edit:
8. He views instructions like safety instructions, cooking instructions, operation instructions, etc. are from a respectable source so he follows them to the letter, but he does not respect lawmakers and politicians/government officials which is why he doesn't respect laws and doesn't follow them.
I would agree that characteristics 3-7 have no bearing on alignment, and that characteristics 1 and 2 are textbook examples of chaotic alignment, so I would name this character chaotic.

[Red Fel]

Alright so the consensus is chaotic.

As someone mentioned laws and instructions are basically the same thing, and it's weird for someone to follow instructions but now laws. Since this character creates instructions for everything he does and never strays from them (although he does create new instructions or alter existing instructions if they don't work) I figured he has strong lawful qualities but I guess that isn't the case.

I disagree; I don't think they're "basically the same thing." Laws govern your daily life - they shape how you live, so of course a Chaotic character would disagree with the idea of one person telling another how to live his or her life.

Instructions, on the other hand, don't govern life - they govern a task. They can be as simple as "flip the switch to turn on the light," or as elaborate as "when the blood moon rises, assemble the twelve artifacts amidst the circle of stones on the highest peak, and speak the words of prophecy in alphabetical order." A Chaotic character can certainly follow instructions if he or she wants to do a thing correctly.

Where I take issue is the character forcing other characters to follow instructions the same way. That pushes the limit, it my mind. It's one thing for a Chaotic character to follow instructions in order to do things right. It's another to force others to live their lives following instructions. One is a choice you make for yourself, the other is a choice you force on others.


Oh and as for the beating thing. You know when you're assembling a furniture? Some guys follow instructions step by step, some guys just grab whatever is in front of them and make em fit, possibly using outside materials to aid in the process like additional nails or glue, and some guys follow the instructions but not to the letter. They grab whatever is in front of them and look up the instructions for that part and assemble the thing in a different order than the instructions instructed them to. Doing the latter two will make him freak out and beat these people until they disassemble whatever they assembled and start from the beginning in an orderly fashion. If you think this is neurotic/OCD, it is.

Oh, I agree it's neurotic, and probably more than a little sociopathic, I just think it's a bit out of line for a character who doesn't like telling others how to live their lives. "Do what you like, however you like, as long as you don't hurt anyone, but if you fail to follow instructions I will break your freaking face." It just seems a bit contradictory, is all.

I can see smacking someone who messes up. I've done it. I've assembled furniture and said, "Okay, pass me the screwdriver. The screwdriver. No, the screwdriver. Do you not understand what a - good, okay. No, don't lean on that, it's wood, don't lean on that, don't you ****ing lean on OH ME DAMNIT NOW YOU BROKE IT AND no, it's fine, I can fix this, just sit over there and touch nothing..." There may have been one or two smacks to the back of the head involved. It happens.

But it's the difference between smacking someone for screwing up, and just wailing on them until they do as you command, for you are their master and they will learn obedience. One of those things is normal frustration, the other is... Frankly unhinged. Or Lawful Evil. Either/or.

[noce]

1. Chaotic
2. Chaotic
3. OCD
4. OCD
5. OCD
6. OCD
7. Dumb

His alignment is CD, Chaotic Disturbed.

[Seto]

Honestly, I would say he's not Chaotic or Lawful as much as his characterization is unlikely and inconsistent. (and I mean the character's consistency as an organic character, not his behavior's consistency as a moral person)


Everyone should be able to do whatever they want whenever they want as long as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
[...]
If you stray from instructions he will beat you with whatever he is holding until you follow the instructions.
So which is it? Do you mean he doesn't actually believe the first statement? Or he just doesn't act according to his beliefs?
Overall, he sounded chaotic before the weird stuff began though.

[RoboEmperor]

Where I take issue is the character forcing other characters to follow instructions the same way.


So which is it? Do you mean he doesn't actually believe the first statement? Or he just doesn't act according to his beliefs?
Overall, he sounded chaotic before the weird stuff began though.

I see what you guys are getting at now.

It's the neurosis. He believes the guy who made the instructions is the master of the whatever the instructions are for, and everyone else is a complete noob. By straying from the instructions you are inviting unforeseen catastrophe with your amateur noob brain and you are going to potentially ruin the whole thing because you were lazy, arrogant, and thought you were smarter than the master instead of recognizing what you truly are: a noob.

Does this contradict his views? Maybe. He's a freedom fighter with OCD. If there is conflict between the two then i guess his OCD wins. I can picture someone pointing this out to him, and the OCD endlessly nagging at him until he finally breaks and forces everyone to follow instructions, and then get depressed he went against his views.

As for the laws vs instructions, I think a person who doesn't follow instructions is more chaotic than a person who does follow instructions, which means following instructions makes a person less chaotic and more lawful, which means following instructions makes you more lawful. No?

Anyways you did say that forcing people to follow instructions is Lawful, so there is a conflict. Does that make him so lawful that it turns him neutral? Or does he remain chaotic?

[Inevitability]

Chaotic. Even if the tendency to make plans was chaotic (it isn't) or if the lack of improvisation ability was chaotic (it isn't), the incredibly strong chaotic ideals embodied by point 1 and 2 are far more important than anything else listed here.

[RoboEmperor]

Chaotic. Even if the tendency to make plans was chaotic (it isn't) or if the lack of improvisation ability was chaotic (it isn't), the incredibly strong chaotic ideals embodied by point 1 and 2 are far more important than anything else listed here.

It's not so much about making plans, its more about never straying from plans. I guess I forgot to mention that part, but I doubt it changes anything.

Chaotic it is!

[Red Fel]

Anyways you did say that forcing people to follow instructions is Lawful, so there is a conflict. Does that make him so lawful that it turns him neutral? Or does he remain chaotic?

No. It makes him inconsistent.

Look, it's no impact on his personal beliefs if he decides to follow instructions. A Chaotic character can totally do that.

It's when he tries to force other people to live his way. Not just forcing them to follow instructions, but forcing them to live the way he does. It doesn't quite make sense. See, he can believe in following instructions himself and not force that belief on others. But you say he forces others, which - again - doesn't mesh with his whole "don't make people live your way" philosophy. By his own logic, he should attempt to destroy himself (see #2 on your list).

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that following instructions makes him Lawful; it doesn't. I'm saying that, in his own philosophy, the positions of (1) nobody should tell you how to live your life or force their beliefs on you against your will, and (2) if you don't perform this one ritual in which I believe I will beat you senseless until you do, are inconsistent.

He can be neurotic in his own life. That's fine. But he can't simultaneously espouse "live your way" and "live my way" as philosophies. They're incompatible.

[RoboEmperor]

He can be neurotic in his own life. That's fine. But he can't simultaneously espouse "live your way" and "live my way" as philosophies. They're incompatible.

Yes he can. It's called being a hypocrite. He has ideals, he tries his best to follow those ideals, but he loses his battle with his OCD and ends up going against his ideals regarding following instructions. Classic case of "he knows better but couldn't help it". He sees someone on his team ignoring instructions and he goes all ballistic, no matter how hard he tries not to do it.

Everything that doesn't involve instructions he believes in freedom and doing whatever you want. Anything involving instructions he makes people follow them if the task is related to him in anyway. If it's about a party member's own private thing he doesn't care but if it's something related to him like setting up a tent he's gonna use he will force them to follow instructions.

Like you said the two are polar opposites, but in the list of priorities, following instructions is #1 freedom is #2, so whenever the two conflict he always sides with following instructions.

[Nifft]

Like you said the two are polar opposites, but in the list of priorities, following instructions is #1 freedom is #2, so whenever the two conflict he always sides with following instructions.

I hand your PC a sheet of paper that says:


HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE

Step 1: Never tell anyone else to follow instructions.

Step 2: Repeat.

[Red Fel]

Yes he can. It's called being a hypocrite. He has ideals, he tries his best to follow those ideals, but he loses his battle with his OCD and ends up going against his ideals regarding following instructions. Classic case of "he knows better but couldn't help it". He sees someone on his team ignoring instructions and he goes all ballistic, no matter how hard he tries not to do it.

Everything that doesn't involve instructions he believes in freedom and doing whatever you want. Anything involving instructions he makes people follow them if the task is related to him in anyway. If it's about a party member's own private thing he doesn't care but if it's something related to him like setting up a tent he's gonna use he will force them to follow instructions.

Like you said the two are polar opposites, but in the list of priorities, following instructions is #1 freedom is #2, so whenever the two conflict he always sides with following instructions.

There's being a hypocrite, and then there's having an irresistible, homicidal compulsion. I won't get into the mental illness side of it (suffice to say, D&D does a poor job of modeling it), but a character who has an irresistible compulsion to beat up his own party is considered unplayable at my table.
In before someone mentions Frenzied Berserker.
Basically, he reads like a Chaotic character who has an irrational, irresistible compulsion with respect to instructions. He's still Chaotic, but he's also ill.

[RoboEmperor]

There's being a hypocrite, and then there's having an irresistible, homicidal compulsion. I won't get into the mental illness side of it (suffice to say, D&D does a poor job of modeling it), but a character who has an irresistible compulsion to beat up his own party is considered unplayable at my table.
In before someone mentions Frenzied Berserker.
Basically, he reads like a Chaotic character who has an irrational, irresistible compulsion with respect to instructions. He's still Chaotic, but he's also ill.

He's a wizard with 8 or 6 str score. The beating is more like an expression of anger than an actual beating. Whatever he's holding is an improvised weapon so you add another -4 to his attack.

[Ashtagon]

Chaotic. This axis was originally defined as your relationship to organised society, not your relationship to patterns and instructions.

[Pleh]

With a few exceptions, I felt like you might have been describing my personality in real life (I'm not much of a planner, for example). Of course, further details might make the distinctions a lot more noticeable.

You seem to be asking about the question of what alignment means when the legitimacy of authority is questioned. Both a highly chaotic character and a highly lawful character might become hostile towards an illegitimately oppressive enforcement of law, so how do we determine the alignment of a character who seems devoted to a personal set of laws with fervor, but does not recognize external social authority of the state (and further maintains that no one should be obligated to do so beyond the basic requirements of the Social Contract)? Lawful, because they operate absolutely on a unique system of laws, but Chaotic because they are totally unwilling to yield to external authority.

Internally Lawful, Externally Chaotic.

I have considered how this worldview functions in D&D and the easiest way I can resolve it is to stick the character in the plane of Law then the plane of Chaos. Where are they more comfortable? It really seems to depend on the Setting and what it means by Law. If the character is comfortable in the Plane of Law, then what they are is a Paragon of Law that defies mortal misinterpretations.

If they are not comfortable there, then they just have a very strong personal code and would be more comfortable in Limbo, where nobody cares what you believe.

[Jopustopin]

You know i had argued earlier that this guy was chaotic alignment but I've been dwelling on this for a while and I think that our focus has been on the wrong aspect. I think he's lawful evil.

Here are some quotes on Lawful Evil that I use when describing alignments to people:

"It is necessary to remember that exactly what is and is not evil will vary from society to society. However, evil always includes the complete and utter disregard for anything that stands in the way of the character's desires"

"They may have the welfare of society superficially in mind, but their personal welfare always precedes that or anything else."

This is what gets me, your character believes in personal freedom but it's clearly a superficial belief given everything else he believes.

"Lawful Evil characters believe that to further their own ends they must impose order onto others and dispose of by any means anything that threatens them or the order they impose."

"Lawful Evil characters are meticulous, and they are also often very cruel in their aims."

So, changing my vote. Nothing to see here.

[Luccan]

Chaotic, because he apparently doesn't mind the hypocrisy in the inherent contradiction between 2 and 3 (or is that 1 and 3? Regardless...). He hates laws that force people to do stuff that doesn't hurt anyone... but will himself hurt people who don't follow instructions? The guy's rather batty.

While I agree that the character is Chaotic, Lawful characters can totally be hypocrites. Heck, the way the PHB describes LE makes them sound hypocritical "I have rules, so I'm better than everyone else. That's why I order my men to burn down orphanages instead of doing it myself".

[TheTeaMustFlow]

"It is necessary to remember that exactly what is and is not evil will vary from society to society. However, evil always includes the complete and utter disregard for anything that stands in the way of the character's desires"

Insofar as alignment applies to D&D, particularly 3.5, this is incorrect. Good and Evil are cosmic absolutes. If slavery is Evil, and a society thinks it is good, it does not become Good within that society, said society is simply wrong (and likely Evil).


"They may have the welfare of society superficially in mind, but their personal welfare always precedes that or anything else."

This is arguable, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily true either. Plenty of Lawful Evil types have laid down their lives or condemned themselves to hell in pursuit of whatever cause they follow.

[Hecuba]

Chaotic.
The instruction following sounds facilitative rather than ethical, and the topics of the instructions do not appear to deal with acts that are inherently ethical signed.

If the instruction following is ethical or the instructions somehow serve to inherently add order to society, then the answer is different.

For example, following recipes exactly because modifying grandmother's roast instructions amounts a betrayal of your family's honorable cooking traditions probably is lawful. But I'm not going to assume that's why most people following recipes to the letter do so.

Edit: Dang nabbit, this post reminded me that I need to set asside some time this week to bake and purree a bunch of sugar pumpkins for exactly that reason.