[Xanathar's] What is best sorcerer origin now?

[Renen]

Now that we have Xanathar's released, what is the beat sorcerer origin in your opinion? This is best out of all avaliable not just ones in xanathar's, and obviously you can assign each more than one rating/value, since different situations might call for different things.

[alchahest]

it depends on what you want to do! Divine soul offers some very potent options in giving you access to cleric spells, it's my current favorite.

[samcifer]

it depends on what you want to do! Divine soul offers some very potent options in giving you access to cleric spells, it's my current favorite.

It definitely gives the largest spell list possible. Shadow is good for helping to avoid death and gaining advantage via Darkness for combat superiority on attack roll spells and melee.

[Throne12]

I can't say which one is best but I do like the divine soul as well getting cleric spells is really nice.

I have a main bad guy I'm using the divine soul as her class.

[Specter]

The answer is, obviously, it depends.

Divine Soul gives a humongous spell list, but since Sorcerers don't learn many spells, life isn't as easy for them as it seems.

[lunaticfringe]

Divine Soul peeked my interest but idk how I feel about it. I don't want access to the cleric list for healing yet it kinda wants you to take at least a spell or two.

I'm not a huge fan of Shadow Hound being a creature, I would rather have it have been a curse or spirit debuff. Like the reverse of Sheperds Druids Buff bubble.

Still they both seem fun. I think Divine will win the popularity contest because of Expanded List & Fly Speed.

[DarkKnightJin]

The only idea for a Sorcerer that I've got that would have me play a Sorc instead of another caster.. Is Draconic Bloodline. And that's mostly because that just fits my idea of what Xerath would be like in D&D character form.

[melvinmelon123]

I think both Shadow and Divine clearly outpace Draconic. Shadow gets you the darkness/devil sight combo, an improved Heightened spell, bonus action teleports to dim light (that is a lot of places, there is almost always dim light somewhere nearby), and a mega-buff for the BBEG fight if you play to that high of level. Divine gets a free spell, access to the whole cleric list, a big boost to a failed save (once per short rest), flight, and a massive personal heal.

Which one you take depends on what role you want to fill in the party. If you want to buff then go Divine, if you want to be a blaster/debuff then go Shadow.

[Dalebert]

Shadow is the best in my opinion. Great archetype features right out of the gate with lvl 1 and level 6 features. Makes me feel the need to multiclass since no decent AC options like draconic but I'm okay with that. I admit I might be eperiencing "it's fresh and new" bias because draconic is obviously nice.


I'm not a huge fan of Shadow Hound being a creature, I would rather have it have been a curse or spirit debuff. Like the reverse of Sheperds Druids Buff bubble.

I'm sure if not that it would have to be concentration. It gives enemies a way to combat it, literally. So that makes me glad they went a different direction with it. It allows for more combos since it imposes disadvantage on saves vs. your spells.

Access to cleric spells seems nice but I can't help wondering "Why not play a cleric and have way more spells?" The obvious answer seems "metamagic". Are there certain mind-blowing metamagic/cleric spell combos that folks have come up with that might change my mind about Divine Souls?

[lunaticfringe]

I'm sure if not that it would have to be concentration.

Why? Hexblade's Curse thingy & Shepherd's Aura don't require concentration and are a seperate resource.

[Byke]

Shadow is the best IMO as well....extra spell Darkness/extra MM/See through you own darkness cheese...for advantage. All of the class abilities up to the capstone are useful.

Divine Soul - While they have a huge spell selection 15 spells known still hurts...it's great for lower level spells like Bless, Word of Healing, Spiritual Weapon...but at higher level I would still chose Sorcerer spells.

[stoutstien]

Wild magic is still my favorite.

[samcifer]

Wild magic is still my favorite.

I want to create a shadow monk/shadow sorcerer so emo he can make darkness cut itself just so it can feel something.

[mephnick]

I want to create a shadow monk/shadow sorcerer so emo he can make darkness cut itself just so it can feel something.

Name him something ridiculous, like Darkgloom Bloodstiletto

I still want to run a campaign world where everyone has ridiculous badass 12 year old names. Like even the shopkeepers.

[Dudewithknives]

Name him something ridiculous, like Darkgloom Bloodstiletto

I still want to run a campaign world where everyone has ridiculous badass 12 year old names. Like even the shopkeepers.

Take a few levels of gloom stalker ranger. Hunt down the darkness and cut it.

[RickAllison]

I will point out that Divine Souls have significant economic potential for world building. Unlike Death Clerics, Sorcerers with Twinned don't need to pay extra to revive multiple people. A savvy Sorcerer could run a 2-for-1 special, especially nice for those Dead a while.

[krugaan]

I keep wanting to try to abuse the healing mechanic of the new chain pact invocation...

divine / celestial sorlock?

[Nifft]

Darkness casts magic missiles at YOU!

[RickAllison]

I keep wanting to try to abuse the healing mechanic of the new chain pact invocation...

divine / celestial sorlock?

How about if you take Life Transference as a Sorcerer spell through Divine Soul? It is not as direct as other options, but this proposed Sorlock could heal at maximum dice, take a few dice of damage and effectively heal four times that amount. Hmmmmm...

[krugaan]

How about if you take Life Transference as a Sorcerer spell through Divine Soul? It is not as direct as other options, but this proposed Sorlock could heal at maximum dice, take a few dice of damage and effectively heal four times that amount. Hmmmmm...

I don't think that's how it works, does it? I'm AFB, but I think you only roll damage on yourself and heal for twice that much. You never actually roll for healing.

[Chugger]

So the divine features that might be worth exploring.

You can Twin cleric spells (which may have been possible with an old sorc/cleric multi - but not sure - can't remember if that works, if wis based spells work with all sorc features) - at least easily now - as someone else just said in another thread you can twin spiritual weapon. I wonder what else you can twin. Healing spells, yeah. And with a 1 dip in Life Cleric you add a bonus, if you want.

Can you twin that spell that summons a big bad guardian? Two of those in some cases would be pretty wicked. Iirc the prob with using that spell in combat is that enemies can just not go near them and avoid being hit by them.

Shadow Sorc seems powerful and fun. If I went huVar I'm wondering what feat. Insp Leader or Toughness would help out with the low hit point issue (as does being in darkness). Going halfelf and taking Elv accuracy would help when I'm casting spells where I roll to hit, but not sure how often I'll be doing that as I level up. Nice thing about that feat is that you get an ability and a Cha 18 at lvl 4. Getting armor from a feat makes no sense. I could be a dra race and get the feat that gives 13 ac but would be behind in an asi - max 17 cha at lvl 4, not 18. Mage armor might be the way to go, but that's painful for a sorc until you get up higher - well it's always painful. Elven chain is hard to find. So maybe relying on darkness for defense is best. Resil Wis would help on STs as a feat, as would Resil Dex. Oh - warcaster.

[mer.c]

So the divine features that might be worth exploring.

You can Twin cleric spells (which may have been possible with an old sorc/cleric multi - but not sure - can't remember if that works, if wis based spells work with all sorc features) - at least easily now - as someone else just said in another thread you can twin spiritual weapon. I wonder what else you can twin. Healing spells, yeah. And with a 1 dip in Life Cleric you add a bonus, if you want.

If you do Twin a Spiritual Weapon, doesn't that not really give you much value? On all subsequent turns, you use a bonus action to make it make the weapon attack, so you're only able to use one per turn IIRC.

[melvinmelon123]

If you do Twin a Spiritual Weapon, doesn't that not really give you much value? On all subsequent turns, you use a bonus action to make it make the weapon attack, so you're only able to use one per turn IIRC.

Yes, there would be no reason to twin that spell. It is not possible to twin it at all, as spiritual weapon does not have a target and only spells with one creature as a target can be twinned.

[Talamare]

Dragon is easily #1 still

Divine will only be #1 if someone discovers a broken combo, but at the moment it's a niche option at best. Similar to going Wild, but not being pointless.
Wild is still pointless.

Shadow has some cute, and useful features. However, it lacks the raw power Dragon provides.
It's easily deserves the title of 2nd.

Storm is somewhere in the middle of it all.

[Chugger]

If you do Twin a Spiritual Weapon, doesn't that not really give you much value? On all subsequent turns, you use a bonus action to make it make the weapon attack, so you're only able to use one per turn IIRC.

I'd check w/ DM.

Let's also check the logic of saying it's a b.a cast so only one (I don't think it being a b.a. cast = one thing). For example if I quicken EB and I'm lvl 5 overall (maybe I'm sorc 3/lock 2) - I fire two EB blasts on my b.a. - maybe at 2 different targets. So if I can do that, why can't I twin Spi Weap and have both attack - even if it is on my next b.a.

In other words, where does it precisely say that b.a. is always strictly limited to one thing? (and there is at least one example I can think of where we use a b.a. to cast two spells or do do two attacks with one spell maybe - whichever is happening w/ quickened e.b., and from what I've read quickening e.b. is very much allowed (or else I've been very much led astray by a lot of posts here!!))

[SharkForce]

dragon is not that awesome. it has some decent features. they are not nearly as good as what the new origins get. the armour is pretty good, the resistance is kinda weird in how you use it, the bonus damage is nice but still leaves you below actual damage-dealers by a significant margin in the single-target category, and doesn't make you awesome in any situation where you wouldn't be awesome without it in the AoE category, and while flight is pretty good, it comes pretty late.

as to which of shadow and divine is more powerful, i think they're different enough that it is going to be extremely hard to point to anything conclusive.

[mer.c]

I'd check w/ DM.

Let's also check the logic of saying it's a b.a cast so only one (I don't think it being a b.a. cast = one thing). For example if I quicken EB and I'm lvl 5 overall (maybe I'm sorc 3/lock 2) - I fire two EB blasts on my b.a. - maybe at 2 different targets. So if I can do that, why can't I twin Spi Weap and have both attack - even if it is on my next b.a.

In other words, where does it precisely say that b.a. is always strictly limited to one thing? (and there is at least one example I can think of where we use a b.a. to cast two spells or do do two attacks with one spell maybe - whichever is happening w/ quickened e.b., and from what I've read quickening e.b. is very much allowed (or else I've been very much led astray by a lot of posts here!!))

You have indeed been lead astray. You're not casting two different Eldritch Blasts as bonus actions in your Quicken example. You're casting one as an action and another as a bonus action. "When you Cast a Spell that has a Casting Time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the Casting Time to 1 Bonus Action for this casting."

You are very explicitly that you can take only one bonus action on your turn. "You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use when you have more than one available." Saying that your bonus action can be more than one bonus action sounds like a serious contortion of the rules.

Maybe fortunately, this is all irrelevant anyways since Twinned Spell requires "...a spell that targets only one creature." Spiritual Weapon doesn't target a creature, so it's not a valid target for Twinned Spell in the first place.

[Talamare]

Breaking the Illusion of Shadow being powerful

Darkness Combo for Advantage!
-Yes, but it cost 2 SP and your Action. Meaning you're not doing anything else that round. Which means enemies can just walk out of it.

But QUICKEN!
-Okay, now you have essentially spent 4 SP for Advantage for basically 1 turn. Oh, and Darkness still counts as a spell, so the only other thing you CAN do is cast a Cantrip!

What if I setup a damage spell the turn before that I can activate with my action/bonus action?
-Nice Combo! However, Sorcerers can kinda already do that. It's quicken that makes this amazing.

What about a control spell to keep them in the Darkness?
-Ooh yea, maybe you will spend even more SP to Heighten it too! Spending all your turns doing silly stuff instead of NUKING THEM...

Don't you know how amazing Advantage is?!
Melvin-Don't you know that half your spells are Saves, not Attacks

Still, Darkness helps my allies~
-and... Screws your Allies. If you use it to protect against Archers? That's useful
If you cast it in the center of a melee battle, you're probably doing more harm than good.

What about Darkness for like Stealth!
-Neat! I wish we had a Wizard...

Moving on...

I can teleport as a BONUS ACTION ALL DAY EVERYDAY
-Honestly, that is pretty cool... It's easily better than passive Flight. Bummer it comes in at level 14

Umbral Form for the Tanks!
-You have d6 HD... Umbral Form basically makes you into a like a Baseline Fighter in terms of survivability. You're still squishy. Radiant Damage is potentially common at this level as well.

HEY! YOU SKIPPED THE PUPPY!
-I actually love the idea of the Puppy, I wish it had some more bonuses to it's offensive capabilities.
It will be pretty useful when you get it... then quickly make you wonder what is the point.


Overall - Shadow is above average, but pretty mediocre

[TheUser]

You have indeed been lead astray. You're not casting two different Eldritch Blasts as bonus actions in your Quicken example. You're casting one as an action and another as a bonus action. "When you Cast a Spell that has a Casting Time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the Casting Time to 1 Bonus Action for this casting."

You are very explicitly that you can take only one bonus action on your turn. "You can take only one Bonus Action on your turn, so you must choose which Bonus Action to use when you have more than one available." Saying that your bonus action can be more than one bonus action sounds like a serious contortion of the rules.

Maybe fortunately, this is all irrelevant anyways since Twinned Spell requires "...a spell that targets only one creature." Spiritual Weapon doesn't target a creature, so it's not a valid target for Twinned Spell in the first place.

I dunno chief. The fact that spiritual weapon only ever targets one creature with a melee spell attack and both limitations of twinned spell are met I do believe this satisfies the pre-requisites of the metamagic.

Spiritual Weapon can only ever target one creature at a time and does not have a casting range of Self.

[melvinmelon123]

Breaking the Illusion of Shadow being powerful

Darkness Combo for Advantage!
-Yes, but it cost 2 SP and your Action. Meaning you're not doing anything else that round. Which means enemies can just walk out of it.

But QUICKEN!
-Okay, now you have essentially spent 4 SP for Advantage for basically 1 turn. Oh, and Darkness still counts as a spell, so the only other thing you CAN do is cast a Cantrip!

What if I setup a damage spell the turn before that I can activate with my action/bonus action?
-Nice Combo! However, Sorcerers can kinda already do that. It's quicken that makes this amazing.

What about a control spell to keep them in the Darkness?
-Ooh yea, maybe you will spend even more SP to Heighten it too! Spending all your turns doing silly stuff instead of NUKING THEM...

Still, Darkness helps my allies~
-and... Screws your Allies. If you use it to protect against Archers? That's useful
If you cast it in the center of a melee battle, you're probably doing more harm than good.

What about Darkness for like Stealth!
-Neat! I wish we had a Wizard...

Moving on...

I can teleport as a BONUS ACTION ALL DAY EVERYDAY
-Honestly, that is pretty cool... It's easily better than passive Flight. Bummer it comes in at level 14

Umbral Form for the Tanks!
-You have d6 HD... Umbral Form basically makes you into a like a Baseline Fighter in terms of survivability. You're still squishy. Radiant Damage is potentially common at this level as well.

HEY! YOU SKIPPED THE PUPPY!
-I actually love the idea of the Puppy, I wish it had some more bonuses to it's offensive capabilities.
It will be pretty useful when you get it... then quickly make you wonder what is the point.


Overall - Shadow is above average, but pretty mediocre

I think you are really underselling Darkness. It is basically the premier way to get advantage at early levels, and many builds dip Warlock 2 just to get it. Due to the 10 minute duration you can often cast it before going into combat, which takes away the (admittedly heavy) cost of using an action to cast. I don't think it is that great on a pure Sorcerer, due to a lot of spells being based on saves not attack rolls, but if you are making a Sorcadin or a Sorlock it is amazing.

[Talamare]

I think you are really underselling Darkness. It is basically the premier way to get advantage at early levels, and many builds dip Warlock 2 just to get it. Due to the 10 minute duration you can often cast it before going into combat, which takes away the (admittedly heavy) cost of using an action to cast. I don't think it is that great on a pure Sorcerer, due to a lot of spells being based on saves not attack rolls, but if you are making a Sorcadin or a Sorlock it is amazing.

I'll happily grant Shadow as being useful in a Multiclass Build

I'm gauging it on being pure

[alchahest]

I dunno chief. The fact that spiritual weapon only ever targets one creature with a melee spell attack and both limitations of twinned spell are met I do believe this satisfies the pre-requisites of the metamagic.

Spiritual Weapon can only ever target one creature at a time and does not have a casting range of Self.

you can cast it, but you can still only use one per turn

[melvinmelon123]

I'll happily grant Shadow as being useful in a Multiclass Build

I'm gauging it on being pure

Totally fair. I think super heightened spell makes it the best origin for a control/debuffer build, but I can see the argument for Draconic. Usually when I am making a Sorcerer I try and focus on one, maybe two, things since they know so few spells that if you try and do everything well you won't do anything great.

[TheUser]

I think the shadow hound is pretty amazing. 3 sorcery points as a bonus action to summon a scaling shadow hound of doom.

Even if it gets ripped apart in 1 round it's tanking hits and aggro. Though in higher level encounters that include dragons and other AoE's it might start getting taken out pretty aggressively.


I'm very dependent on having 16 AC as a draconic sorcerer so the concept of the slot/spells known tax on the other subclasses does have to made up for with the other bonus spells. Also the bonus HP/level has been pretty invaluable since being a d8 hp full caster feels just right for making a caster not fall over from a strong breeze. Having Elemental Absorption is going to help a lot mind you.

[SharkForce]

Breaking the Illusion of Shadow being powerful

Darkness Combo for Advantage!
-Yes, but it cost 2 SP and your Action. Meaning you're not doing anything else that round. Which means enemies can just walk out of it.

But QUICKEN!
-Okay, now you have essentially spent 4 SP for Advantage for basically 1 turn. Oh, and Darkness still counts as a spell, so the only other thing you CAN do is cast a Cantrip!

What if I setup a damage spell the turn before that I can activate with my action/bonus action?
-Nice Combo! However, Sorcerers can kinda already do that. It's quicken that makes this amazing.

What about a control spell to keep them in the Darkness?
-Ooh yea, maybe you will spend even more SP to Heighten it too! Spending all your turns doing silly stuff instead of NUKING THEM...

Don't you know how amazing Advantage is?!
Melvin-Don't you know that half your spells are Saves, not Attacks

Still, Darkness helps my allies~
-and... Screws your Allies. If you use it to protect against Archers? That's useful
If you cast it in the center of a melee battle, you're probably doing more harm than good.

What about Darkness for like Stealth!
-Neat! I wish we had a Wizard...

Moving on...

I can teleport as a BONUS ACTION ALL DAY EVERYDAY
-Honestly, that is pretty cool... It's easily better than passive Flight. Bummer it comes in at level 14

Umbral Form for the Tanks!
-You have d6 HD... Umbral Form basically makes you into a like a Baseline Fighter in terms of survivability. You're still squishy. Radiant Damage is potentially common at this level as well.

HEY! YOU SKIPPED THE PUPPY!
-I actually love the idea of the Puppy, I wish it had some more bonuses to it's offensive capabilities.
It will be pretty useful when you get it... then quickly make you wonder what is the point.


Overall - Shadow is above average, but pretty mediocre

certainly you don't need to use darkness all the time (though for the record, 2 SP is equal to or less than the cost of casting darkness normally, depending on how you count it). but you have it available, and in some cases it is incredibly strong. as noted elsewhere, you don't use it on the enemy, you use it on yourself and hang back, to give most enemies disadvantage to hit you, to make yourself impossible to target with a number of spells, etc (you can of course drop it on enemies when that is a good idea, as well). it isn't something you're always going to want to use (unless maybe everyone else in the party dipped warlock 2 for devil's sight), but it's a useful tool to have around sometimes. (plus, doesn't it also come with long range darkvision too? that can be exploited without any actions at all, if i remember correctly and they have it)

radiant damage is never really common. it can be less uncommon. but it's not like, say, poison or fire damage. and you don't need to be as tanky as a front-liner. any added tankiness is used to protect against mistakes in positioning while you sit in the back lines. just like you should with a dragon sorcerer, really, because no, mediocre AC and hit points is not the difference between a regular sorcerer and a front line fighter.

and then the hound. the hound is amazing. it is like getting heighten on your main spell plus quicken on your main spell so you can get a damaging cantrip off in the same round. and your enemy can either ignore it and give you free damage over time (plus potential debuff) plus free heighten on all spells you cast from that point on, or they can attack it which is like a free added control spell as they spend their action for it. yes, it costs 3 SP. but you're getting benefits worth much more than the cost.

shadow sorcerer is better than the draconic sorcerer at being a sorcerer. if the draconic sorcerer is slightly less bad at being a melee, so what. i don't need to face tank a troll to be an effective sorcerer. that's what barbarians and paladins and fighters are for.

[Zene]

To answer the OP: It depends a lot on what you're trying to do, and what your personal tastes are. But personally, I'd rank them as:

Tier 1: Shadow, Divine Soul, and Wild (though heavily DM dependent, so if your DM isn't a fan move this to Tier 3)
Tier 2: Dragon
Tier 3: Storm (a distant last)


Breaking the Illusion of Shadow being powerful

Darkness Combo for Advantage!
-Yes, but it cost 2 SP and your Action. Meaning you're not doing anything else that round. Which means enemies can just walk out of it.

But QUICKEN!
-Okay, now you have essentially spent 4 SP for Advantage for basically 1 turn. Oh, and Darkness still counts as a spell, so the only other thing you CAN do is cast a Cantrip!

What if I setup a damage spell the turn before that I can activate with my action/bonus action?
-Nice Combo! However, Sorcerers can kinda already do that. It's quicken that makes this amazing.

What about a control spell to keep them in the Darkness?
-Ooh yea, maybe you will spend even more SP to Heighten it too! Spending all your turns doing silly stuff instead of NUKING THEM...

Don't you know how amazing Advantage is?!
Melvin-Don't you know that half your spells are Saves, not Attacks

Still, Darkness helps my allies~
-and... Screws your Allies. If you use it to protect against Archers? That's useful
If you cast it in the center of a melee battle, you're probably doing more harm than good.

What about Darkness for like Stealth!
-Neat! I wish we had a Wizard...

Moving on...

I can teleport as a BONUS ACTION ALL DAY EVERYDAY
-Honestly, that is pretty cool... It's easily better than passive Flight. Bummer it comes in at level 14

Umbral Form for the Tanks!
-You have d6 HD... Umbral Form basically makes you into a like a Baseline Fighter in terms of survivability. You're still squishy. Radiant Damage is potentially common at this level as well.

HEY! YOU SKIPPED THE PUPPY!
-I actually love the idea of the Puppy, I wish it had some more bonuses to it's offensive capabilities.
It will be pretty useful when you get it... then quickly make you wonder what is the point.


Overall - Shadow is above average, but pretty mediocre


I'll happily grant Shadow as being useful in a Multiclass Build

I'm gauging it on being pure

So some of this has been touched on by previous posters, but I wanted to summarize it in one place. You're right about the high-level features being sub-par. But regarding your points on the see-through darkness:

-Darkness grants you advantage, and is best used at range. It's (depending on environment) the easiest way for it to benefit you (enemies can't see you, so you have advantage and they have disadvantage) and for it to not hinder your allies (because they're way up ahead in melee or off to the side if ranged).

-You can often pre-cast darkness, so it's not using up either your action or your bonus action the first round in combat.

-It's maybe a little challenging, but not really that hard to build a sorcerer with strong attack roll spells. Even cantrips, when quickened and twinned, and with Elven Accuracy for superadvantage, can really pack a punch. Remember attack roll spells and cantrips can crit, too.

-And you have the hound. So you don't need to build around attack roll cantrips anyway; saving throw spells are in your wheelhouse as well. Not only is the hound an effective Heighten at the same cost, it can be multiple Heightens if it lasts more than one round --and it usually saves an attack on your party if it doesnt-- but it's also an extra token with attacks, possible proning, can be buffed with twinned haste/dragon's breath/whatever. It's actually really nice -- probably the shadow sorc's best feature, and certainly better than anything the dragon sorc gets except maybe wings. It also allows you to pick another metamagic (instead of Heightened).

IMO, the one big drawback to the shadow sorc is this: The 2 sorc point darkness/devil's sight combo, which is the class's marquee feature, is useless as soon as you get Greater Invisibility at L7. You'll probably never use it again after that.

Still, pretty good for a sorc subclass.

[Renen]

I dunno chief. The fact that spiritual weapon only ever targets one creature with a melee spell attack and both limitations of twinned spell are met I do believe this satisfies the pre-requisites of the metamagic.

Spiritual Weapon can only ever target one creature at a time and does not have a casting range of Self.

I think the issue you might run into is needing an action to order one to attack maybe?

[agnos]

IMO, the additional utility you get from Divine Soul is worth the most even if it is a relatively small list spells. But getting Bless, Spirit Guardians, Healing Word, and Revivify is worth it. Hell, you don’t even need Revivify, you just need scrolls of it. The 2d4 to a roll is a nice additional bonus.

Really though, other than Wild there isn’t a bad choice.

[Zene]

IMO, the additional utility you get from Divine Soul is worth the most even if it is a relatively small list spells. But getting Bless, Spirit Guardians, Healing Word, and Revivify is worth it. Hell, you don’t even need Revivify, you just need scrolls of it. The 2d4 to a roll is a nice additional bonus.

Really though, other than Wild there isn’t a bad choice.

I tried putting together a Divine Soul spell progression list (theorycrafting a character) -- I couldn't even fit Revivify in there, with all the awesome choices and the super-limited spell selection the sorcerer has.

I think the Divine Soul is amazing in theory, until you start actually making the hard choices of what path the character is going to take. (If they could have the full cleric spell list instead of the meager 15 spells knows that a sorc gets, and more than two metamagic choices before L10, they'd be unstoppable.)

Still a pretty great subclass though.

[SharkForce]

I tried putting together a Divine Soul spell progression list (theorycrafting a character) -- I couldn't even fit Revivify in there, with all the awesome choices and the super-limited spell selection the sorcerer has.

I think the Divine Soul is amazing in theory, until you start actually making the hard choices of what path the character is going to take. (If they could have the full cleric spell list instead of the meager 15 spells knows that a sorc gets, and more than two metamagic choices before L10, they'd be unstoppable.)

Still a pretty great subclass though.

"there were so many amazing options i had to leave some really good options out" is not a compelling argument for divine soul being weak.

now, obviously, it is even more amazing if you imagine it having all of the goodies it could have at once. but simply having a lot of awesome options is still quite powerful, even if you can't choose every single one.

[Foff]

Shadow is the best in my opinion. Great archetype features right out of the gate with lvl 1 and level 6 features. Makes me feel the need to multiclass since no decent AC options like draconic but I'm okay with that. I admit I might be eperiencing "it's fresh and new" bias because draconic is obviously nice.



I'm sure if not that it would have to be concentration. It gives enemies a way to combat it, literally. So that makes me glad they went a different direction with it. It allows for more combos since it imposes disadvantage on saves vs. your spells.

Access to cleric spells seems nice but I can't help wondering "Why not play a cleric and have way more spells?" The obvious answer seems "metamagic". Are there certain mind-blowing metamagic/cleric spell combos that folks have come up with that might change my mind about Divine Souls?

any cleric buff with extended spell, you can build a pretty strong party support with divine soul, just select the best of both worlds, bless, heals, warding bond, haste, polymorph...

[Arguus]

OMG, look that combo.

Divine Soul 17/ X 3


1) Divine Soul pick Wish: Duplicating Simulacrum


2) Twin Empowered Dragon's Breath (Familiar and Divine Soul or allies). The Simulacrum duplicate the trick. Yes, It's 4 Empowered Dragon's Breath per round (It's a ****ing high damage).

3) Subtle Silence+ Mage Slayer feat + Sentinel feat can be devasting against spellcasters

4) If you want a good healing = Twin Empowered Life Transference (Simulacrum's healing), or Simulacrum's Quicken Revify or Quicken Death Ward.

5) Open to new combos.




Twin Empowered Life Transcerence + Empowered Healing can heal more than 250 hp.

[JackPhoenix]

I dunno chief. The fact that spiritual weapon only ever targets one creature with a melee spell attack and both limitations of twinned spell are met I do believe this satisfies the pre-requisites of the metamagic.

Spiritual Weapon can only ever target one creature at a time and does not have a casting range of Self.

Tha fact that the weapon only targets one creature at a time is completely irrelevant. Effect of the spell isn't "target a creature and do x", it's "create a weapon in empty space". That the weapon then does x is completely separate from the casting.

[Talamare]

OMG, look that combo.

Divine Soul 17/ X 3


1) Divine Soul pick Wish: Duplicating Simulacrum


2) Twin Empowered Dragon's Breath (Familiar and Divine Soul or allies). The Simulacrum duplicate the trick. Yes, It's 4 Empowered Dragon's Breath per round (It's a ****ing high damage).

3) Subtle Silence+ Mage Slayer feat + Sentinel feat can be devasting against spellcasters

4) If you want a good healing = Twin Empowered Life Transference (Simulacrum's healing), or Simulacrum's Quicken Revify or Quicken Death Ward.

5) Open to new combos.




Twin Empowered Life Transcerence + Empowered Healing can heal more than 250 hp.

Anything + Simulacrum is just no...
Not even worth a mention

Twin Dragon Breath, Sorcerer already does this solo
Silence + Feats, You're still a d6 HD Sorcerer. Someone else is better off doing this combo while you stand back and counterspell things that get thru.
Twin Heal spell is actually insane!
Twin and/or Heighten Geas is useful too
Extend Aid before sleep, lasts for 8 hours after waking up... is neat

Overall, none of these combos are insane tho
They are all pretty nice, but that's about it

[Arguus]

Anything + Simulacrum is just no...
Silence + Feats, You're still a d6 HD Sorcerer. Someone else is better off doing this combo while you stand back and counterspell things that get thru.




.
Silence + Feats, You're still a d6 HD Sorcerer. Someone else is better off doing this combo while you stand back and counterspell things that get thru.
Why simulacrum is just no? It's reason to be level 17 sorcerer (Wish).

The Simulacrum's Twin Empowered Life Transference + Empowered Healing or Quicken Revify or Extended/Quicken Death Ward is assisting you. Right?
Divine Soul is D6, ok. But, He is hard to kill. Right?
The Simulacrum also counterspell very well.




Twin and/or Heighten Geas is useful too


Subtle Geas is potent too.



Also, Wish: Duplicating Contingency Spell. Revify Spell + Contingency Spell can be really good.

[JackPhoenix]

Also, Wish: Duplicating Contingency Spell. Revify Spell + Contingency Spell can be really good.

Except it doesn't work. You aren't valid target for Revivify.

You can't touch yourself when you're dead.

[SharkForce]

Except it doesn't work. You aren't valid target for Revivify.

You can't touch yourself when you're dead.

you're casting it into a contingency, you don't need to be a valid target when you cast it, you're just storing it. so long as you're a valid target when the contingency goes off, you're fine.

[Potato_Priest]

I know I really want to play a shadow sorcerer. Cast darkness and get everyone to stand in it to give yourself advantage, your teammates neither advantage nor disadvantage, and the whole party immunity to ~70%* of offensive spells.

*Made up statistic

[Renen]

Except it doesn't work. You aren't valid target for Revivify.

You can't touch yourself when you're dead.

Don't underestimate my ability to touch myself!

[Nifft]

You can't touch yourself when you're dead.

You underestimate the power of my ectoplasm.

[Arguus]

Except it doesn't work. You aren't valid target for Revivify.

You can't touch yourself when you're dead.

No, It works well.
Contingency: Revify don't need touch anything, just store it. When you die, contingency works and you are a valid target. :smallbiggrin:

[Arguus]

Don't underestimate my ability to touch myself!


:thog:
:biggrin:

[Arguus]

you're casting it into a contingency, you don't need to be a valid target when you cast it, you're just storing it. so long as you're a valid target when the contingency goes off, you're fine.

True +1 :smallsmile:

[MrStabby]

I would say draconic - it is a really powerful class.

Sorcerer metamagic is what the class is all about. Getting the most out of it is key.

Class limitation is spells known. Getting the most out of them is key.

Draconic sorcerer makes you tougher - nice, but not that great (remember good for max hp, does nothing to help short rest HP recovery). A bit of resistance - niche, but ok.

At level 6 the +Cha to damage is huge. No, it doesn't turn the sorcerer into a top level damage dealer by itself but it does allow the sorcerer much more efficient use of sorcery points. Using a cantrip is less a wasted turn, conserving slots and meaning you can use more resources when you need to. Likewise it saves on spells - you don't need as many damage spells if your cantrips can fill that role well and can free up slots for protection or control - the things a sorcerer does well.

The class combines efficiency with unparalleled nova effects for big fights.

[SharkForce]

I would say draconic - it is a really powerful class.

Sorcerer metamagic is what the class is all about. Getting the most out of it is key.

Class limitation is spells known. Getting the most out of them is key.

Draconic sorcerer makes you tougher - nice, but not that great (remember good for max hp, does nothing to help short rest HP recovery). A bit of resistance - niche, but ok.

At level 6 the +Cha to damage is huge. No, it doesn't turn the sorcerer into a top level damage dealer by itself but it does allow the sorcerer much more efficient use of sorcery points. Using a cantrip is less a wasted turn, conserving slots and meaning you can use more resources when you need to. Likewise it saves on spells - you don't need as many damage spells if your cantrips can fill that role well and can free up slots for protection or control - the things a sorcerer does well.

The class combines efficiency with unparalleled nova effects for big fights.

a well-built sorcerer only really needs 2 damage spells apart from cantrips (and possibly some other spells that do damage in addition to other things, like sunbeam). and one of those damage spells should specifically be a type other than your draconic element, because it's your emergency backup plan for when your main damage spell doesn't work.

you can add +5 damage to your fireball all you want. it isn't going to reduce your need to have a second damage-dealing spell for things that are immune to fire, so no, it isn't really making you need any fewer damage spells; the ideal amount for anything other than a completely damage-oriented sorcerer (which isn't a terribly good idea in the first place) is already as low as it can reasonably go. and a completely damage-oriented sorcerer is going to just keep picking damage spells because that's what they're doing, so it won't reduce any need for damage spells there either, the need was already artificially created to begin with.

furthermore, you don't care if you're wasting your turn when you use a cantrip. that's why you're using a cantrip in the first place, because you don't really need to make a big impact with your turn, you're just trying to do something that is at all useful. if you need to make an impact, firebolt (with or without +5 damage) is not what you do. whether you do 40% or 50% of an actual damage-dealing character's DPR should not be your deciding factor on whether you spend SP or spell slots. either you need a big effect (like hypnotic pattern or banishment or fireball or web) and +5 damage to your cantrip doesn't really come into play, or you don't need a big effect and +5 damage to your cantrip is nice, but not particularly necessary anyways. by the time you're level 6, it is going to take a LOT of firebolts to come even close to comparing to when you want to make a mark.

[Dalebert]

Why? Hexblade's Curse thingy & Shepherd's Aura don't require concentration and are a seperate resource.

Apples and Oranges. It's the equivalent of a 3rd level spell in terms of resource cost and it's really good. I'm honestly surprised they didn't make it concentration AND a creature that can be attacked and destroyed (think Conjure Animals). It's directly attacking an enemy with no further action cost from you every round for 10 rounds. The enemy should have some way to stop the attacks and other effects like disadvantage against all of your spells which is huge. If interrupting your concentration isn't one of those, then it's reasonable to say it can be attacked and destroyed.

[Potato_Priest]

IMO, the one big drawback to the shadow sorc is this: The 2 sorc point darkness/devil's sight combo, which is the class's marquee feature, is useless as soon as you get Greater Invisibility at L7. You'll probably never use it again after that.

Still, pretty good for a sorc subclass.

Well, there are situations where you will still use it, for the following reasons.

1. It’s cheaper
2. You can save on spells known by not grabbing greater invisibility
3. If used in a small group with the rest of the party, it will counteract your enemies’ abilities that let them attack with advantage, or neutralize powers that give your party’s attacks disadvantage
4. Many offensive spells rely on getting the caster to target a point or creature that they can see, so darkness can be used to hinder enemy spellcasters almost as well as silence. You can also get it to move with one of your front liners (unlike silence), making things even worse for the caster.

[Zene]

Well, there are situations where you will still use it, for the following reasons.

1. It’s cheaper
2. You can save on spells known by not grabbing greater invisibility
3. If used in a small group with the rest of the party, it will counteract your enemies’ abilities that let them attack with advantage, or neutralize powers that give your party’s attacks disadvantage
4. Many offensive spells rely on getting the caster to target a point or creature that they can see, so darkness can be used to hinder enemy spellcasters almost as well as silence. You can also get it to move with one of your front liners (unlike silence), making things even worse for the caster.

Fair enough. In niche cases, it can still be a huge benefit, especially if your party works well with darkness.

[Zene]

"there were so many amazing options i had to leave some really good options out" is not a compelling argument for divine soul being weak.

now, obviously, it is even more amazing if you imagine it having all of the goodies it could have at once. but simply having a lot of awesome options is still quite powerful, even if you can't choose every single one.

Yeah, I never said it was weak -- are you confusing me with another poster? In an earlier comment I listed it as top-tier.

That said, I haven't seen anyone put forward a specific DS build yet that put it head-and-shoulders ahead of all the other subclasses. Its choices are awesome, and it's got more choices than a typical sorcerer, but that doesn't necessarily make it better given the limits the sorcerer chassis has.

I will totally revise that opinion if someone can put together a specific build that wows me. So far it's all "you can cast Heightened/Subtle Geas!" and "you can Twin Death Ward!" and "you can have all your awesome typical sorcerer spells *and* all the awesome cleric spells!". Which, yeah, you can, but each one of those means you're sacrificing other choices to do so.

[Ritorix]

Divine Soul really looks like it needs a multiclass for armor. Otherwise you are stuck with low AC on the party healer/support character. Hexblade is an obvious dip, especially if you want to eldritch blast or dip into coffeelock territory. Paladins are the other classic option.

Life Cleric is another good option, and I like that it can fill a tanky healer/support role nearly right away. Here's an example build. Race is undefined, but vhuman has the usual feat options including inspiring leader and warcaster.

Level 1: Divine Soul 1
Cantrips: toll the dead, frostbite, minor illusion, message (or favorite utility spell). You'll want to take attack cantrips via sorc rather than the coming cleric multiclass, since CHA will continue to climb but WIS will be static.
Divine Soul alignment option: Protection from Evil (can retrain later, but only to cleric spells)
Spells Known: Sleep, Shield

Typical first level, terrible AC, just stay alive. Go sorc first for CON saves.

2: Life Cleric 1
+Gains medium armor and shield from the multiclass, heavy from domain selection. Use heavy armor and a shield.
+Gains Disciple of Life, a boost to healing spells
Cantrips (3): guidance, light, thaumaturgy (or whatever)
Domain Spells: bless, cure wounds
Spells prepared (3 with 14WIS): healing word, detect magic, shield of faith

At second level you can stop cowering and start to fill your main role as a typical support character. Bless and Healing Word will be the go-tos, along with a high AC and Shield for defense. The rest of this is pure sorcerer, with only sorc spell selection examples. I won't revisit the cleric prepared spells, but you can always swap them out.

3: +Absorb Elements. Plus and minus signs for spells learned and unlearned.
4: Metamagic (+twin, +quicken). Twin is key. Quicken is a wildcard and could arguably be anything else, even Distant to make those touch spells more useful.
-Sleep, +Aid, +Blindness. Two non-concentration spells while you maintain a bless, or a twinned shield of faith or twinned prot:evil - one of the pair on yourself, of course. Aid stacks with inspiring leader.
5: +2CHA, +Enhance Ability
6: (-Protection from Evil, +Life Transference)--this slot has to remain a cleric spell, +Counterspell.

With the 'identifying a spell' rules change fiasco, I don't even know if I would bother with countering, but its a historically strong choice. You could take haste with the intent to twin, but honestly Bless is so useful for the slot and sorcpoint cost, I don't know if its worth the expense of twin haste most fights.

Life Transference is an interesting spell, I don't know if I would really pick it here but it lets me talk about it. LT heals roughly double what a same-level Cure Wounds would do. You could twin it to another target or even yourself. You could empower it too. At 6th character level with life cleric bonus, it's roughly 40 healing to one target, 80 twinned. It also does about 18 damage to yourself and would be terrible to use while concentrating - but maybe between warcaster, con save proficiency and the bless save bonus you wouldn't even have to worry. It might be a good 'turn the tables' emergency option if you've already lost concentration and need some big heals.

Anyway, the build is well-established by now and continues from there. You probably want banishment and polymorph (it's sort of a heal) at 4th level. This build's power comes from twin heals and buffs, and the healing bonuses you gain from cleric domain and the option to empower healing (at character level 7).


------------------------------------------------


What about single-classing a DS? That's where you run into the low AC issues. You could squeeze out a vhuman with Lightly Armored and 16/16/16 dex/con/cha, for 15AC in studded leather. Or go mountain dwarf, 16AC in medium armor, but a 14CHA. Spell selection is also limited to sorc-only this way.

Example build here. The spell in (parenthesis) is the divine soul slot locked to cleric spells only.

cantrips: toll the dead, fire bolt, guidance, mold earth
1: +healing word, +shield, (+bless)
2: +absorb elements
3: +shatter
Metas taken: twin/empower
4: +aid
5: +revivify, -shatter, +fireball
6: (-bless, +life transference), +haste
7: (-life transference, +banishment) +polymorph

Etc. I did this quickly and its too heavy on concentration at the end, but you get the idea. Point being, it doesn't have the useful feat or the deeper spell list a multiclass vhuman would have - or if you took warcaster, you are stuck with a garbage AC.

[TheUser]

Divine Soul...

4: Metamagic (+twin, +quicken). Twin is key. Quicken is a wildcard

Quicken sees a whole lot less use when you have Spiritual Weapon as one of your spells.

Twin + Subtle

or

Twin + Empower also works well

[Ritorix]

Quicken sees a whole lot less use when you have Spiritual Weapon as one of your spells.


Speaking of spiritual weapon, that seems like it would work nicely with a hexblade curse. It should get the bonus damage and expanded crit range.

[SharkForce]

there are racial and feat options for armour too. not that hard to get decent AC.

[Zene]

Speaking of spiritual weapon, that seems like it would work nicely with a hexblade curse. It should get the bonus damage and expanded crit range.

Elven Accuracy too, since technically it’s the caster making spell attack rolls. Just need a source of advantage...