[3.5] Tristalt Fighter/Knight/Marshal - What Tier

[Thurbane]

Just a theoretical question:

If you were to allow a tristalt Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm)/Knight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) (PHB2)/Marshal (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) (MH) as a base character class, how would it compare against other martials, like the Crusader or Warblade?



Level

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Special

Minor Auras

Major Auras



1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
Bonus feat (fighter), fighting challenge +1, knight’s challenge, knight’s code, minor aura, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
1
0


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3
Bonus feat (fighter), major aura +1, Mounted Combat, shield block +1
1
1


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
Bulwark of defense
2
1


4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
Armor mastery (medium), bonus feat(fighter), grant move action 1/day, test of mettle
2
1


5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
Bonus feat (knight), vigilant defender
3
2


6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Bonus feat(fighter), shield ally
3
2


7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
+5
Fighting challenge +2, major aura +2
4
2


8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
+6
Bonus feat (fighter), call to battle, grant move action 2/day
4
2


9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
+6
Armor mastery (heavy)
5
3


10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
+7
Bonus feat (fighter), bonus feat (knight)
5
3


11th
+11/+6+/1
+7
+3
+7
Shield block +2
5
3


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+8
Bonus feat (fighter), daunting challenge, grant move action 3/day
6
3


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+8
Fighting challenge +3
6
3


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+9
Bonus feat (fighter), improved shield ally, major aura +3
6
4


15th
+15/+10+/5
+9
+5
+9
Bonus feat (knight)
7
4


16th
+16/+11+/6/+1
+10
+5
+10
Bond of loyalty, bonus feat (fighter), grant move action 4/day
7
4


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
Impetuous endurance
7
4


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11
Bonus feat (fighter)
7
4


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11
Fighting challenge +4
8
4


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12
Bonus feat (fighter), grant move action 5/day, loyal beyond death, major aura +4, shield block +3
8
5



Hit Die: d12

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier

Class Skills
Class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

[Gnaeus]

High 4, low 3.

Bad skills. Assuming you avoid the trap and don’t sword and board, fights passibly but has less options than the ToB guys for common melee problems. If RAW diplomacy is in play, marshal may be broken strong. If not, it doesn’t add immensely. Definitely weaker than T3 casters, but if built well can probably compete with the low T3 guys. Certainly better than T4s like Barbarian.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Make it the Pathfinder Fighter and it bumps up a bit, though obviously still below ToB and casters

[Zancloufer]

It would be solid. Probably worth playing on it's own and might compare to ToB classes in a tank type character. Maybe not as inherently flexible but would make for a solid tank-y warrior if played right.

Actually Martial Auras + Knight Lockdown + Fighter feats would let you build the classic front line tank VERY well. Decent AC, full speed, solid HP/Saves and three different ways to stop enemies from passing you. I think it would be a solid niche for what we consider the "boring guard type".

EDIT: Also Sword and Board isn't as much of a trap as you think. Go something like Buckler + Polearm.

[Nifft]

Looks like a solid T4 to me, though I might be mis-judging the Knight's features.

Never seen one of those in play.

[Telonius]

I'm with Gnaeus on this one; seems to be straddling the line of Tier 4 and Tier 3. With free Mounted Combat and bucketloads of bonus feats to back it up, it can definitely bring the charging damage. Skill points and a halfway-decent list (Bluff, Diplomacy, Spot, Listen) give him something to do outside of combat. This isn't a completely Charisma-dependent thing like Bard or Sorcerer would be, but it's a Charisma-enabled character. I could see this as primary charger, secondary buffer, tertiary face. Unfortunately it seems about as MAD as a Paladin.

[Jormengand]

Tier 4. Marshal is about competent at its job; fighter and knight just add the fighting capability which they have which isn't much anyway. I don't see it getting to tier 3, really. Rogue can kill people and use skills too.

[Zaq]

Immediate gut reaction: above (non-WS) Ranger, around or slightly below Rogue.

It's functional overall. It's still very nonmagical, and it's going to run out of new tricks before the double-digit levels, but it at least has something to kind of do with its standard actions, and it might have enough support to make Knight's Challenge kinda worthwhile.

[AvatarVecna]

If it helps your OP, Knight was made publicly available via a PH2 exerpt (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiJvanhn8fXAhUD7iYKHXEwDpsQFggnMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.wizards.com%2Fdefault.asp %3Fx%3Ddnd%2Fex%2F20060501a%26page%3D2&usg=AOvVaw3VcfbJCjhPdMsjjQEgV6Ml).

As for the proposed "three in one" base class, I think it's okay. Good Will save, d12 HD, and 4+I skills is a nice upgrade to the base fighter chassis, but the only way to really get your money's worth from the auras and challenges is to have at least a smidgen of (or preferably a hefty amount of) Charisma, and Fighter is MAD enough as it is; unless you focus your Cha as hard as a Sorcerer, your challenge DC will lag behind his - and he gets lots more spells than you do challenges. The bonus feats from Knight aren't helpful unless you're going mounted anyway, and that style has lots of issues (not the least of which is that by the time you've got more than a couple of those feats, you'll either need a super-horse or you'll be going through horses by the truckload every fight). Shield Block is Dodge if it scaled slowly and didn't count as Dodge for prereqs, so it's still terrible; it's only potentially non-terrible if you find some feat or spell or item or whatever that multiplies your Shield bonus (since this increases your shield bonus against a particular enemy, it would double that extra as well, which would actually make the bonus potentially worthwhile). The only ability I think has real combo potential is Bulwark of Defense, as long as you're spending your Fighter feats on reach build stuff.

That said, because Fighter is a pretty solid high 5/low 4 depending on build, I'm gonna say this class would be a solid high 4, but I can't justify saying it's T3. To be T3, I think this class would need something to do out of combat, some role to fill. What does this do outside of combat? AFAICT, probably Diplomacy...and that's it. Not even taking Motivate Charisma will make you a good enough face to serve that role past the first few levels, and full ranks in one face skill just isn't gonna cut it.

If I was gonna recommend anything to change about this class, it would be to put Holy Warrior Paladin or Champion Of The Wild Ranger. Without hardcore dedication to your Cha, the auras are never gonna be all that great, and most of them are combat-focused anyway (and you've already got plenty of that). Holy Warrior Paladin gives Lay On Hands, Cha to saves, a super-mount, smites, Spirited Charge access, and some combat bonus feats. Going Champion Of The Wild Ranger gives you good Ref, 6+I skills, Track, Favored Enemy, fighting style feats (that don't need to meet pre-reqs), an animal companion (for super-horse), and some other bonus feats.

[Pleh]

I feel like most builds with this class (I mean straight, vanilla class sans multiclassing or PRCs) will end up averaging T4 and a few more optimized on the high end will branch into T3.

I see this as, at best, a boost to the Sir Didymus build by Person Man (found in his knight handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?109429-3-5-Person-Man-s-Knight-Handbook)).

Mount up, use fighter feats to pick up the THF feats, the Mounted Combat feats and Combat Reflexes, use Lance and charge (might need to dip barbarian for pounce, but that flaw isn't unique at this tier) with RideBy Attack. Use Knight's test of mettle to kite weak willed enemies while your allies pick off the outliers one by one. In this case, try to pick up something to charge in a curve so you can always end movement out of reach of enemies, but keeping your allies in range of marshal auras.

Should be able to reach solid T3 material somewhere.

[Eldariel]

Eh, Marshal Auras add a reasonable amount of out of combat utility. Not personally but being able to Motivate Charisma/Intelligence/Wisdom helps your allies in e.g. social and research situations tremendously (Motivate Intelligence/Charisma makes a Wizard/Sorcerer able to safely Contact Other Plane to even Greater Deities pretty early; such checks are rather difficult to buff in general) and you can do reasonably on those checks yourself. Motivate Dex/Strength is also pretty nice. Major Auras also add some other utility: Motivate Urgency & Resilient Troops can help with various kinds of overland stuff (though of course, it doesn't begin to compete with a Wizard Teleporting you around) and in some tactical speed-is-of-the-essence scenarios. Motivate Urgency stacks on top of things like Phantom Steed and Feathered Wings so it's not entirely useless even though it doesn't normally directly apply to Fly-speeds.

Whether that's enough for T3, that's another matter. If you added Zhentarim Fighter subs to the chassis, we'd have a more varied social approach to problems with the mixture of solid Intimidation and Diplomacy. Also a more varied combat approach, on a clearly Cha-based class to boot. Having some cool stuff higher up from Knight is nice and being able to zone control to at least some degree is solid as well. Frankly, this class feels quite fun to play and I'd love booting it up at least next to T3-4ish stuff, though the scaling just isn't there for high tier stuff (even if Loyalty Beyond Death is cool, that's level 20). I could call this class a low T3 even without Zhentarim Fighter though I'd probably prefer having access to those and also 6+Int skill points since it's really skill starved. Also, Mettle should 100% be there somewhere.


Certainly, that class is much closer to what the Fighter should have been in a system like 3E design-wise. It's just really sad Grant Move Action is such a poor trade usually; standard for move is a downtrade. It should at the very least be Swift. Adrenaline Boost from PHBII (ACFs could make this whole class a tad stronger) is a bit better but still should probably be Swift.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I agree with tier 4. It'd be quite a nice class, too. However, some class features underperform. For example, the major aura scales very slowly, Fighting Challenge has strict target limits, and Grant Move Action is mediocre. In addition, White Raven maneuvers are so damn fitting for this kind of character, that they should be added.

I'd suggest:
1) Major Aura starts at +1 @ level 2, increases to +2 @ 4, and then increases by 1 per four levels (total maximum bonus: +6).
2) All versions of Knight's Challenge no longer care about the target's Intelligence or CR.
3) Grant Move Action takes a move action, and increases the initiative count of the affected allies by the marshal's class level.
4) F//K//M gets one White Raven maneuver of each level, refresh by completing a challenge (defeating a challenged target). Can change aura and stance with the same swift action @ level 9.

[Gnaeus]

That said, because Fighter is a pretty solid high 5/low 4 depending on build, I'm gonna say this class would be a solid high 4, but I can't justify saying it's T3. To be T3, I think this class would need something to do out of combat, some role to fill. What does this do outside of combat? AFAICT, probably Diplomacy...and that's it. Not even taking Motivate Charisma will make you a good enough face to serve that role past the first few levels, and full ranks in one face skill just isn't gonna cut it..

I basically agree with your assessment of knight feats. Still, if a character with Cha based class abilities, with diplomacy in class, double charisma on all social skills, and free skill focus diplomacy can’t be a party face, no one can. He should be able to hit the DCs for one round diplomacy pretty easily, and if RAW diplomacy is a thing he is amazingly positioned to make an army of fanatical slaves.

With 4 skill points and Cha x 2, UMD may also be worth investing in.

I honestly think knight is a terrible class, and I would happily remove knight’s challenge and code completely and just use the D12 hp, +1 buckler AC and bulwark of defense.

[AvatarVecna]

I basically agree with your assessment of knight feats. Still, if a character with Cha based class abilities, with diplomacy in class, double charisma on all social skills, and free skill focus diplomacy can’t be a party face, no one can. He should be able to hit the DCs for one round diplomacy pretty easily, and if RAW diplomacy is a thing he is amazingly positioned to make an army of fanatical slaves.

With 4 skill points and Cha x 2, UMD may also be worth investing in.

I honestly think knight is a terrible class, and I would happily remove knight’s challenge and code completely and just use the D12 hp, +1 buckler AC and bulwark of defense.

I'm approaching this thread assuming that this is intended as a Fighter fix. I agree that, if you look at this class as "Marshal that's more competent at fighting", yeah it would be. Marshal is a fantastic face because it can focus solely on boosting Cha, get double their awesome Cha to all Cha skills, and free Skill Focus (Diplomacy). But if you're looking at this class as "Fighter that's better at talking"like I am, you gotta think...how often do you see a Marshal's Cha score on a Fighter? Most 32 pb melee Fighters will end up looking like 18/12/14/8/14/8; they might go for a higher Con for a bit more defense, higher Int to avoid penalty to skills/level (or even higher if they want Combat Expertise), or higher Dex for an AoO build. Cha normally does basically nothing to improve the Fighter's combat capabilities, and if this Fighter is using their Minor Aura on Motivate Charisma, then Charisma still does basically nothing for their combat abilities until you pick up a combat minor aura (and does literally nothing if you get rid of Knight's Challenge). You're maybe gonna have 14 Cha, maybe 16 if you decide to dump Wis now that you've got a good Will save; if you put all your skills into Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive, and go Zhentarim Fighter, 14 Cha will be enough that you're about equal with a Bard who isn't using spells to enhance their face abilities, which is enough to make you a decent face.

TL;DR Being a good face is more than just a good Diplomacy score. Marshal normally outshines spell-less bard (and competes with face-spells-bard) via Motivate Charisma because they have a Cha to rival the bards. A fighter will not have that much Charisma, so generally they're going to be pulling more or less even with spell-less bard instead (and falling behind once spells are thrown into the mix). Zhentarim Fighter makes things better, but you basically need to put all your skill points into face stuff to end up being a good party face.

Also, UMD is cross-class, so it would take up 2 points per rank, which is gonna cut into your face abilities unless you're playing a Human with a decent Int. Knight's Code should also be removed.

[Eldariel]

I'm approaching this thread assuming that this is intended as a Fighter fix. I agree that, if you look at this class as "Marshal that's more competent at fighting", yeah it would be. Marshal is a fantastic face because it can focus solely on boosting Cha, get double their awesome Cha to all Cha skills, and free Skill Focus (Diplomacy). But if you're looking at this class as "Fighter that's better at talking"like I am, you gotta think...how often do you see a Marshal's Cha score on a Fighter? Most 32 pb melee Fighters will end up looking like 18/12/14/8/14/8; they might go for a higher Con for a bit more defense, higher Int to avoid penalty to skills/level (or even higher if they want Combat Expertise), or higher Dex for an AoO build. Cha normally does basically nothing to improve the Fighter's combat capabilities, and if this Fighter is using their Minor Aura on Motivate Charisma, then Charisma still does basically nothing for their combat abilities until you pick up a combat minor aura (and does literally nothing if you get rid of Knight's Challenge). You're maybe gonna have 14 Cha, maybe 16 if you decide to dump Wis now that you've got a good Will save; if you put all your skills into Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive, and go Zhentarim Fighter, 14 Cha will be enough that you're about equal with a Bard who isn't using spells to enhance their face abilities, which is enough to make you a decent face.

TL;DR Being a good face is more than just a good Diplomacy score. Marshal normally outshines spell-less bard (and competes with face-spells-bard) via Motivate Charisma because they have a Cha to rival the bards. A fighter will not have that much Charisma, so generally they're going to be pulling more or less even with spell-less bard instead (and falling behind once spells are thrown into the mix). Zhentarim Fighter makes things better, but you basically need to put all your skill points into face stuff to end up being a good party face.

Also, UMD is cross-class, so it would take up 2 points per rank, which is gonna cut into your face abilities unless you're playing a Human with a decent Int. Knight's Code should also be removed.

I think instead of taking this class as a "Marshal with X" or a "Fighter with X", we should look at it as its own thing and see how it fares in the tasks given to it when assigned points that make sense for this particular class instead of one of the parent classes. Between Motivate Strength/Master of Tactics/Over the Top (switching Auras is a swift action so you should have a combat aura up in combats, and Motivate Cha does precious little there), minor bonuses from Motivate Attack/Ardor/Steady Hands and so on, a Marshal/Fighter/Knight can afford lower Str than a pure Fighter while still being competent thus freeing up points for Charisma (and high Cha goes nicely with Zhentarim requiring 15 for Imperious Command anyways). And he gets Cha to most checks anyways with a swift action so it's generally better for the Fighter-half to throw points into Charisma as well than to focus solely on Strength.

Since Marshal gets two minor auras on level 3, by then he can afford to a battle and a nonbattle one meaning he's fine compared to an 18 Str Fighter in combat and has the non-combat contributions as well (and indeed, the level 1 aura should probably be a combat one). After that he just gains more battle and nonbattle versatility. Getting Knight's Challenges off Cha too just adds even more incentive to put enough points into Charisma for them to not all be wasted. Though they're mostly of course rather lackluster anyways, but as swift actions they give you more stuff to do and can be reasonable at their intended role.

Also, Marshal's ability to buff saves with either minor or major auras does help a bit again freeing up point buy to focus more on Charisma. In a 32pb I might look at:
16 Str (10)
12 Dex (4)
14 Con (6)
14 Int (6)
8 Wis (0)
14 Cha (6)

Which seems like it should be able to fight reasonably (the usual charger+tripper AOE setups) while also being able to contribute out of combat. Of course, the real value of Charisma is going to increase when you get items to boost the check bonus. Could go 12 Con & 15 Cha for immediate Imperious Command but it's always dangerous playing a frontliner with under 14 Con even if you have d12 HD and good Fort and potential save boosters. Not being able to go Cha SAD does of course hurt in some ways but it's still a nice bonus and getting like 20 Cha from ranks and items is more than fine. And you might eventually get inherents for +7 or so. 16 starting Cha would be nice but that would require some sacrifices already.

[Gnaeus]

I'm approaching this thread assuming that this is intended as a Fighter fix. I agree that, if you look at this class as "Marshal that's more competent at fighting", yeah it would be. Marshal is a fantastic face because it can focus solely on boosting Cha, get double their awesome Cha to all Cha skills, and free Skill Focus (Diplomacy). But if you're looking at this class as "Fighter that's better at talking"like I am, you gotta think...how often do you see a Marshal's Cha score on a Fighter? Most 32 pb melee Fighters will end up looking like 18/12/14/8/14/8; they might go for a higher Con for a bit more defense, higher Int to avoid penalty to skills/level (or even higher if they want Combat Expertise), or higher Dex for an AoO build. Cha normally does basically nothing to improve the Fighter's combat capabilities, and if this Fighter is using their Minor Aura on Motivate Charisma, then Charisma still does basically nothing for their combat abilities until you pick up a combat minor aura (and does literally nothing if you get rid of Knight's Challenge). You're maybe gonna have 14 Cha, maybe 16 if you decide to dump Wis now that you've got a good Will save; if you put all your skills into Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Sense Motive, and go Zhentarim Fighter, 14 Cha will be enough that you're about equal with a Bard who isn't using spells to enhance their face abilities, which is enough to make you a decent face.

TL;DR Being a good face is more than just a good Diplomacy score. Marshal normally outshines spell-less bard (and competes with face-spells-bard) via Motivate Charisma because they have a Cha to rival the bards. A fighter will not have that much Charisma, so generally they're going to be pulling more or less even with spell-less bard instead (and falling behind once spells are thrown into the mix). Zhentarim Fighter makes things better, but you basically need to put all your skill points into face stuff to end up being a good party face.

Also, UMD is cross-class, so it would take up 2 points per rank, which is gonna cut into your face abilities unless you're playing a Human with a decent Int. Knight's Code should also be removed.

I agree that your PB is solid for a base fighter. But a fighter//marshal//knight should definitely have a higher charisma than that. For a couple of reasons.

Marshal should take motivate charisma, for diplomacy and possibly handle animal or UMD. And if, as you suggested, you can go Zhentarim and get some intimidate in there that’s even better! But marshal gets a second minor aura by level 3. These classes lend themselves to two combat styles. Charging (knight gets some bonus feats that don’t suck for that) or tripping (bulwark of defense with a reach weapon and imp trip is a solid build). And look, marshal gets an aura that adds to charge damage and another one that adds to trip. The tristalt can go with a 2 points lower con, because d12s = a 1 point con boost. Then he can drop his str by a bit, because his major aura (and maybe WF Lance from knight) add to hit, and his minor aura adds his Cha to charge damage or tripping. I’d see something like 16/14/12/12/10/14 as a worthwhile spread, with the same hp as a fighter, better will than fighter, the same to hit as as the fighter, better trip check than fighter, but he can increase stats faster because +2 charisma and strength is cheaper than +4 strength. At level 5 he can take one of the save auras, all of which are situationally cool, but only if he has the Cha to power it.

To look at it differently, the difference between T4 and T3 here is probably how much you lean on marshal. A slightly better fighter is T4. A party buffer with face ability and decent UMD who also has the actual ability to contribute to combat may hit T3.

[Gnaeus]

I think instead of taking this class as a "Marshal with X" or a "Fighter with X", we should look at it as its own thing and see how it fares in the tasks given to it when assigned points that make sense for this particular class instead of one of the parent classes. Between Motivate Strength/Master of Tactics/Over the Top (switching Auras is a swift action so you should have a combat aura up in combats, and Motivate Cha does precious little there), minor bonuses from Motivate Attack/Ardor/Steady Hands and so on, a Marshal/Fighter/Knight can afford lower Str than a pure Fighter while still being competent thus freeing up points for Charisma (and high Cha goes nicely with Zhentarim requiring 15 for Imperious Command anyways). And he gets Cha to most checks anyways with a swift action so it's generally better for the Fighter-half to throw points into Charisma as well than to focus solely on Strength.

Since Marshal gets two minor auras on level 3, by then he can afford to a battle and a nonbattle one meaning he's fine compared to an 18 Str Fighter in combat and has the non-combat contributions as well (and indeed, the level 1 aura should probably be a combat one). After that he just gains more battle and nonbattle versatility. Getting Knight's Challenges off Cha too just adds even more incentive to put enough points into Charisma for them to not all be wasted. Though they're mostly of course rather lackluster anyways, but as swift actions they give you more stuff to do and can be reasonable at their intended role.

Also, Marshal's ability to buff saves with either minor or major auras does help a bit again freeing up point buy to focus more on Charisma. In a 32pb I might look at:
16 Str (10)
12 Dex (4)
14 Con (6)
14 Int (6)
8 Wis (0)
14 Cha (6)

Which seems like it should be able to fight reasonably (the usual charger+tripper AOE setups) while also being able to contribute out of combat. Of course, the real value of Charisma is going to increase when you get items to boost the check bonus. Could go 12 Con & 15 Cha for immediate Imperious Command but it's always dangerous playing a frontliner with under 14 Con even if you have d12 HD and good Fort and potential save boosters. Not being able to go Cha SAD does of course hurt in some ways but it's still a nice bonus and getting like 20 Cha from ranks and items is more than fine. And you might eventually get inherents for +7 or so. 16 starting Cha would be nice but that would require some sacrifices already.

/supports eldariel’s post because his point buy better than mine, because I can’t add today :-p. If I were tripping I’d swap dex and con.

[Lazymancer]

If you were to allow a tristalt Fighter/Knight (PHB2)/Marshal (MH) as a base chaarcter class, how would it compare against other martials, like the Crusader or Warblade?
Throw in "all base stats are 18" and you got a deal Tier 3.

[ATHATH]

What does it say about the balance of this game that stapling 3 different classes together only produces a class that's mediocre?

What if we let ACFs, variants, and substitution levels be applied?

[ViperMagnum357]

^That none of them are a full caster. :smalltongue:

I think the Knight is the odd class out-the focus on mounted combat sort of pigeonholes the build, so I think it should either be removed, or swap one of the other classes for something with a mount-I second Holy Warrior Paladin.

[Nifft]

What does it say about the balance of this game that stapling 3 different classes together only produces a class that's mediocre? It means hat the classes have a lot of structural overlap, and don't benefit much from their mutual incremental boosts. This is especially damning since the 3 classes in question don't have great features, and are expected to rely on their "skeleton" to provide value -- by which I mean their high BAB, relatively high HD, and their saving throws.


But consider what they actually get for e.g. saving throws:
- Fighter: good Fort
- Knight: good Will
- Marshal: good Fort and Will

The F//K//M is no better than a baseline Marshal in this area, and the stats required for F//K//M functionality (Cha and Str) don't provide much synergy.


Contrast against a Wizard // Warblade:
- Warblade: good Fort, add Int to Reflex
- Wizard: good Will, high Int

The Wiz//Warb is significantly better than an average Wizard in this area, and also better than an average Warblade (who was no slouch). Class features do boost saving throws, in specific there are 3 Diamond Mind maneuvers which key off of Concentration -- another synergy with Wizard, who will always max out Concentration.

[Lazymancer]

What does it say about the balance of this game that stapling 3 different classes together only produces a class that's mediocre?
I see you persist in treating Tiers as power, rather than potential.

[ATHATH]

I see you persist in treating Tiers as power, rather than potential.
Ah. Sorry, that was fallacious on my part.

[The Shadowmind]

So while we are on the subject of Tristalt. What would a Rogue// Spellthief //Lurk's tier be? What is the Spelltheif has the Trickster ACF?

[Jormengand]

So while we are on the subject of Tristalt. What would a Rogue// Spellthief //Lurk's tier be? What is the Spelltheif has the Trickster ACF?

3, easily. I'd say a spellthief is T3 on its own, the lurk isn't too far off, and the rogue doesn't do much to alter that. None of the combined possiblities remotely approaches a T2 play.

[Pleh]

3, easily. I'd say a spellthief is T3 on its own, the lurk isn't too far off, and the rogue doesn't do much to alter that. None of the combined possiblities remotely approaches a T2 play.

Yeah, I feel like it's worth a general statement that Gestalting (or Tristalting) classes across Tiers usually doesn't stack the Tiers. It more commonly ends up about equivalent to the highest tier class included, maybe bumped up from the low end to the high end.

This seems especially true when gestalting classes that already possess a number of similar themes and abilities.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, I feel like it's worth a general statement that Gestalting (or Tristalting) classes across Tiers usually doesn't stack the Tiers. It more commonly ends up about equivalent to the highest tier class included, maybe bumped up from the low end to the high end.

This seems especially true when gestalting classes that already possess a number of similar themes and abilities.

Well, almost any 2 5s will make a 4. You just have to be competent at fighting.

A T4 level combat competence + utility puts you at T3.

T1&2, unfortunately, are defined definitionally not functionally. So Beguiler//Warblade is likely just better than any given sorcerer, but isn’t closer to T2 than Beguiler alone

[Jormengand]

Well, almost any 2 5s will make a 4. You just have to be competent at fighting.

Monk and fighter won't, monk and knight won't, knight and fighter won't, battle dancer and fighter won't, battle dancer and monk won't, battle dancer and knight won't, divine mind and monk won't, divine mind and fighter won't, divine mind and knight won't, divine mind and battle dancer won't... none of the combinations I can see will, not with swashbuckler or soulborn or samurai or any other T5. Where, then, are the two T5s who make a T4 hiding? It doesn't help that most of the possible classes are T5 rather than T6 by virtue of being slightly less awful at two mutually-incompatible fighting styles.

[Gnaeus]

Monk and fighter won't, monk and knight won't, knight and fighter won't, battle dancer and fighter won't, battle dancer and monk won't, battle dancer and knight won't, divine mind and monk won't, divine mind and fighter won't, divine mind and knight won't, divine mind and battle dancer won't... none of the combinations I can see will, not with swashbuckler or soulborn or samurai or any other T5. Where, then, are the two T5s who make a T4 hiding? It doesn't help that most of the possible classes are T5 rather than T6 by virtue of being slightly less awful at two mutually-incompatible fighting styles.

Monk and fighter will. Knight and fighter will. Divine mind and fighter will. Monk and knight will. All you have to be is about as good at fighting as a Barbarian. Fighter isn’t far from it already, but is a bit too easy to screw up. Monk + d10s and full BAB is probably T4 with no other features.

[Lans]

Monk and fighter won't, monk and knight won't, knight and fighter won't, battle dancer and fighter won't, battle dancer and monk won't, battle dancer and knight won't, divine mind and monk won't, divine mind and fighter won't, divine mind and knight won't, divine mind and battle dancer won't... none of the combinations I can see will, not with swashbuckler or soulborn or samurai or any other T5. Where, then, are the two T5s who make a T4 hiding? It doesn't help that most of the possible classes are T5 rather than T6 by virtue of being slightly less awful at two mutually-incompatible fighting styles.

I disagree with the divine mind comparisons. It self buffs comparable to a barbarian, and has powers that compete against the barbarians more skills a level.

Some other ones are debatable as well, Monk gives the fighter 2 more good saves, skills, a few bonus feats to a class that was already considered high in tier 5.

Note I am using the PHB Barbarian as a bench mark.

[Blue Jay]

I agree with tier 4. It'd be quite a nice class, too. However, some class features underperform. For example, the major aura scales very slowly, Fighting Challenge has strict target limits, and Grant Move Action is mediocre. In addition, White Raven maneuvers are so damn fitting for this kind of character, that they should be added.

I have an online buddy who likes to play paladin/crusader/marshal types. It's not exactly my thing, personally, but I do have a soft spot for this kind of PC when I'm the DM; so I made a class that's a straight-up gestalt of paladin and marshal, minus the spellcasting, but with a Special Mount and Mounted Combat from 1st level, and the staredown abilities from samurai mixed in.


3) Grant Move Action takes a move action, and increases the initiative count of the affected allies by the marshal's class level.

3rd-level druids already have Mass Snake's Swiftness, and wizards will get it at 5th level. I feel like a 4th-level marshal who's only offered one option ought to get something better than equivalent-level druids and wizards get as one of their many options. So, in my game, I changed it to "Grant Action," which lets the affected allies choose to either take a move action or make a single melee attack.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I have an online buddy who likes to play paladin/crusader/marshal types. It's not exactly my thing, personally, but I do have a soft spot for this kind of PC when I'm the DM; so I made a class that's a straight-up gestalt of paladin and marshal, minus the spellcasting, but with a Special Mount and Mounted Combat from 1st level, and the staredown abilities from samurai mixed in.
What, no casting? That's the best part of being a paladin :smalltongue:.

Joking aside, paladin/marshal with Staredown, that's better than the knight's challenge. Also: Sacred excrement, sorcadins would love that two-level dip! (no pun intended)



3rd-level druids already have Mass Snake's Swiftness, and wizards will get it at 5th level. I feel like a 4th-level marshal who's only offered one option ought to get something better than equivalent-level druids and wizards get as one of their many options. So, in my game, I changed it to "Grant Action," which lets the affected allies choose to either take a move action or make a single melee attack.
Yeah, the initiative boost is much bigger than the action itself. Essentially, the move action lets you get in position, while the initiative boost should let the entire party take a series of turns after another, allowing for coordinated pile-on attacks and spell combinations.

[Jormengand]

Monk and fighter will. Knight and fighter will. Divine mind and fighter will. Monk and knight will. All you have to be is about as good at fighting as a Barbarian. Fighter isn’t far from it already, but is a bit too easy to screw up. Monk + d10s and full BAB is probably T4 with no other features.

Knight and fighter definitely won't. The hit die and will save are probably worth more than everything else the knight gives you... combined. Monk and fighter definitely won't, because the fighter is better off ignoring the monk abilities and hitting things with a greatsword while wearing full plate. Divine mind and fighter might if you're exceptionally careful and know what you're doing, but that's a far cry from almost any pair.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, I feel like it's worth a general statement that Gestalting (or Tristalting) classes across Tiers usually doesn't stack the Tiers. It more commonly ends up about equivalent to the highest tier class included, maybe bumped up from the low end to the high end.

This seems especially true when gestalting classes that already possess a number of similar themes and abilities.

I think the last bit is important. There's a difference between combining classes that have synergy and classes that have overlap. Consider some of these combos that are all pulled from the same tier, and tell me what you think:

Expert//Fighter//Monk

Alignment

Lawful

Hit Die

d10

Class Skills

The Martial Artist's class skills are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, and 10 additional skills of the players choice when they enter this class.

Skill Points at 1st Level

(6 + Int modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level

6 + Int modifier



Lvl
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features
FoB
US Dmg1
AC Bonus
Speed Bonus
Slow Fall


1
+1
+2
+2
+2
AC Bonus, Flurry Of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Bonus Feat (Monk), Bonus Feat (Fighter)
-1/-1
1d6
+0
+0 ft
-


2
+2
+3
+2
+3
Evasion, Bonus Feat (Monk), Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+0/+0
1d6
+0
+0 ft
-


3
+3
+3
+3
+3
Fast Movement, Still Mind
+1/+1
1d6
+0
+10 ft
-


4
+4
+4
+4
+4
Slow Fall, Ki Strike (Magic), Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+2/+2
1d8
+0
+10 ft
20 ft


5
+5
+4
+4
+4
Purity Of Body
+4/+4
1d8
+1
+10 ft
20 ft


6
+6/+1
+5
+5
+5
Bonus Feat (Monk), Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+5/+5/+0
1d8
+1
+20 ft
30 ft


7
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Wholeness Of Body
+6/+6/+1
1d8
+1
+20 ft
30 ft


8
+8/+3
+6
+6
+6
Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+7/+7/+2
1d10
+1
+20 ft
40 ft


9
+9/+4
+6
+6
+6
Improved Evasion
+9/+9/+4
1d10
+2
+30 ft
40 ft


10
+10/+5
+7
+7
+7
Ki Strike (Lawful), Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+10/+10/+5
1d10
+2
+30 ft
50 ft


11
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+7
Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
+11/+11/+11/+6/+1
1d10
+2
+30 ft
50 ft


12
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+8
Abundant Step, Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
2d6
+2
+40 ft
60 ft


13
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+8
Diamond Soul
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
2d6
+3
+40 ft
60 ft


14
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+9
Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4
2d6
+3
+40 ft
70 ft


15
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
Quivering Palm
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5
2d6
+3
+50 ft
70 ft


16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+10
Ki Strike (Adamantine), Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1
2d8
+3
+50 ft
80 ft


17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
+17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2
2d8
+4
+50 ft
80 ft


18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11
Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+18/+18/+18/+13/+8/+3
2d8
+4
+60 ft
90 ft


19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Empty Body
+19/+19/+19/+14/+9/+4
2d8
+4
+60 ft
90 ft


20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
Perfect Self, Bonus Feat (Fighter)
+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5
2d10
+4
+60 ft
any distance





Barbarian//Ranger//Scout

Hit Die

d12

Class Skills

The Survivalist's class skills are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, and Use Rope.

Skill Points at 1st Level

(8 + Int modifier) x 4

Skill Points at each additional Level

8 + Int modifier



Lvl
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features
Rage
Favored Enemy
Skirmish
1st lvl S/d
2nd lvl S/d
3rd lvl S/d
4th lvl S/d


1
+1
+2
+2
+0
Fast Movement (Barbarian), Favored Enemy, Illiteracy, Rage, Skirmish, Track, Trapfinding, Wild Empathy
1/day
1st
+1d6
-
-
-
-


2
+2
+3
+3
+0
Battle Fortitude +1, Combat Style, Uncanny Dodge
1/day

+1d6
-
-
-
-


3
+3
+3
+3
+1
Endurance, Fast Movement (Scout) +10 ft, Trackless Step, Trap Sense +1
1/day

+1d6/+1 AC
-
-
-
-


4
+4
+4
+4
+1
Animal Companion, Bonus Feat (Scout), Spellcasting
2/day

+1d6/+1 AC
0
-
-
-


5
+5
+4
+4
+1
Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge
2/day
2nd
+2d6/+1 AC
0
-
-
-


6
+6/+1
+5
+5
+2
Flawless Stride, Improved Combat Style, Trap Sense +2
2/day

+2d6/+1 AC
1
-
-
-


7
+7/+2
+5
+5
+2
DR 1/-, Woodland Stride
2/day

+2d6/+2 AC
1
-
-
-


8
+8/+3
+6
+6
+2
Bonus Feat (Scout), Camouflage, Swift Tracker
3/day

+2d6/+2 AC
1
0
-
-


9
+9/+4
+6
+6
+3
Trap Sense +3
3/day

+3d6/+2 AC
1
0
-
-


10
+10/+5
+7
+7
+3
Blindsense 30 ft, DR 2/-
3/day
3rd
+3d6/+2 AC
1
1
-
-


11
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+3
Battle Fortitude +2, Combat Style Mastery, Fast Movement (Scout) +20 ft, Greater Rage
3/day

+3d6/+3 AC
1
1
0
-


12
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+4
Bonus Feat (Scout), Trap Sense +4
4/day

+3d6/+3 AC
1
1
1
-


13
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+4
DR 3/-
4/day

+4d6/+3 AC
1
1
1
-


14
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+4
Hide In Plain Sight, Indomitable Will
4/day

+4d6/+3 AC
2
1
1
0


15
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+5
Trap Sense +5
4/day
4th
+4d6/+4 AC
2
1
1
1


16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+5
Bonus Feat (Scout), DR 4/-
5/day

+4d6/+4 AC
2
2
1
1


17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+5
Tireless Rage
5/day

+5d6/+4 AC
2
2
2
1


18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+6
Free Movement, Trap Sense +6
5/day

+5d6/+4 AC
3
2
2
1


19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+6
DR 5/-
5/day

+5d6/+5 AC
3
3
3
2


20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+6
Battle Fortitude +3, Blindsight 30 ft, Bonus Feat (Scout), Mighty Rage
6/day
5th
+5d6/+5 AC
3
3
3
3





Factotum//Swordsage//Warblade

Hit Die

d12

Class Skills

The Adventurer's class skills are "all the skills".

Skill Points at 1st Level

(6 + Int modifier) x 6 4

Skill Points at Every Additional Level

6 + Int modifier



Lvl
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features
Inspiration Points
Spell Level
Arcane Dilettante Spells
Warblade Maneuvers Known
Warblade Maneuvers Readied
Warblade Stances Known
Swordsage Maneuvers Known
Swordsage Maneuvers Readied
Swordsage Stances Known


1
+1
+2
+2
+2
Battle Clarity (Reflex saves), Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus), Inspiration, Quick To Act +1, Trapfinding, Weapon Aptitude
2
-
-
3
3
1
6
4
1


2
+2
+3
+3
+3
AC Bonus, Arcane Dilettante, Uncanny Dodge
3
0
1
4
3
1
7
4
2


3
+3
+3
+3
+3
Battle Ardor (Critical Confirmation), Brains Over Brawn, Cunning Defense
3
1
1
5
3
1
8
5
2


4
+4
+4
+4
+4
Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike)
3
1
2
5
4
2
9
5
2


5
+5
+4
+4
+4
Bonus Feat (Warblade), Opportunistic Piety, Quick To Act +2
4
2
2
6
4
2
10
6
3


6
+6/+1
+5
+5
+5
Improved Uncanny Dodge
4
2
2
6
4
2
11
6
3


7
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
Battle Cunning (damage), Sense Magic
4
2
3
7
4
2
12
6
3


8
+8/+3
+6
+6
+6
Cunning Surge, Discipline Focus (Defensive Stance)
5
3
3
7
4
2
13
7
3


9
+9/+4
+6
+6
+6
Bonus Feat (Warblade), Evasion
5
3
4
8
4
2
14
7
4


10
+10/+5
+7
+7
+7
Opportunistic Piety (+1 use), Quick To Act +3
5
4
4
8
5
3
15
8
4


11
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+7
Battle Skill (Opposed Checks), Cunning Breach
6
4
4
9
5
3
16
8
4


12
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+8
Discipline Focus (Insightful Strike)
6
4
5
9
5
3
17
8
4


13
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+8
Bonus Feat (Warblade), Cunning Dodge
6
5
5
10
5
3
18
9
4


14
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+9
-
7
5
6
10
5
3
19
9
5


15
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
Battle Mastery (AoOs), Opportunistic Piety (+1 use), Quick To Act +4
7
6
6
11
6
3
20
10
5


16
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+10
Discipline Focus (Defensive Stance), Improved Cunning Defense
7
6
6
11
6
4
21
10
5


17
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
Bonus Feat (Warblade), Improved Evasion
8
6
7
12
6
4
22
10
5


18
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11
-
8
7
7
12
6
4
23
11
5


19
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Cunning Defense
8
7
7
13
6
4
24
11
5


20
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
Dual-Boost 3/day, Opportunistic Piety (+1 use), Quick To Act +5, Stance Mastery
10
7
8
13
7
4
25
12
6





Favored Soul//Sorcerer//Wilder

Hit Die

d8

Class Skills

The Demigod's class skills are Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Psionics), Listen, Profession, Psicraft, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.

Skill Points at 1st Level

(4 + Int modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Every Additional Level

4 + Int modifier












FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
FS S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D
S S/D


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features
PP/day
Powers Known
Max Power Lvl Known
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


1
+0
+2
+2
+2
Psychic Enervation, Summon Familiar, Wild Surge +1
2
1
1st
5
3








5
3










2
+1
+3
+3
+3
Elude Touch
6
2
1st
6
4








6
4










3
+2
+3
+3
+3
Deity's Weapon Focus, Wild Surge +2
11
2
1st
6
5








6
5










4
+3
+4
+4
+4
Surging Euphoria +1
17
3
2nd
6
6
3







6
6
3









5
+3
+4
+4
+4
Energy Resistance (1st type), Volatile Mind (1PP)
25
3
2nd
6
6
4







6
6
4









6
+4
+5
+5
+5
-
35
4
3rd
6
6
5
3






6
6
5
3








7
+5
+5
+5
+5
Wild Surge +3
46
4
3rd
6
6
6
4






6
6
6
4








8
+6/+1
+6
+6
+6
-
58
5
4th
6
6
6
5
3





6
6
6
5
3







9
+6/+1
+6
+6
+6
Volatile Mind (2PP)
72
5
4th
6
6
6
6
4





6
6
6
6
4







10
+7/+2
+7
+7
+7
Energy Resistance (2nd type)
88
6
5th
6
6
6
6
5
3




6
6
6
6
5
3






11
+8/+3
+7
+7
+7
Wild Surge +4
106
6
5th
6
6
6
6
6
4




6
6
6
6
6
4






12
+9/+4
+8
+8
+8
Deity's Weapon Specialization, Surging Euphoria +2
126
7
6th
6
6
6
6
6
5
3



6
6
6
6
6
5
3





13
+9/+4
+8
+8
+8
Volatile Mind (3PP)
147
7
6th
6
6
6
6
6
6
4



6
6
6
6
6
6
4





14
+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
-
170
8
7th
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3


6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3




15
+11/+6/+1
+9
+9
+9
Energy Resistance (3rd type), Wild Surge +5
195
8
7th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4


6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4




16
+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
-
221
9
8th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3

6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3



17
+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
Volatile Mind (4PP), Wings
250
9
8th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4

6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4



18
+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11
-
280
10
9th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3


19
+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Wild Surge +6
311
10
9th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4


20
+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
Damage Reduction, Surging Euphoria +3
343
11
9th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6






FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
FS SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK
S SK


Level
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3
5
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4
6
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
6
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5
6
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
6
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6
7
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
7
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
7
6
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
7
6
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-


8
8
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
8
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
-


9
8
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
8
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
-


10
9
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
9
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-


11
9
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-
9
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
-


12
9
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
9
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-


13
9
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-
9
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
-


14
9
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
9
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-


15
9
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-
9
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
-


16
9
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
9
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-


17
9
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-
9
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
-


18
9
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
9
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3


19
9
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3
9
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
3


20
9
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
4
9
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
4






Archivist//Artificer//Wizard

Hit Die

d6

Class Skills

The class skills of the Librarian are Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Gather Information, Heal, Knowledge (all, taken individually), Open Lock, Profession, Search, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.

Skill Points at 1st Level

(4 + Int modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level

4 + Int modifier











A I/D
A I/D
A I/D
A I/D
A I/D
A I/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
A S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D
W S/D


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Class Features
Craft Reserve
Dark Knowledge
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Artificer Knowledge, Artisan Bonus, Craft Reserve, Dark Knowledge (Tactics) Disable Trap, Item Creation, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar
20
3/day
2
-
-
-
-
-
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
3
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Brew Potion, Lore Mastery
40
3/day
3
-
-
-
-
-
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3
+2
+3
+1
+3
Craft Wondrous Item
60
4/day
3
1
-
-
-
-
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4
+3
+4
+1
+4
Bonus Feat (Artificer), Craft Homunculus, Still Mind
80
4/day
3
2
-
-
-
-
4
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5
+3
+4
+1
+4
Bonus Feat (Wizard), Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Dark Knowledge (Puissance), Retain Essence
100
4/day
3
3
1
-
-
-
4
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-


6
+4
+5
+2
+5
Craft Wand
150
5/day
3
3
2
-
-
-
4
4
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
-


7
+5
+5
+2
+5
Lore Mastery, Metamagic Spell Trigger
200
5/day
3
3
2
-
-
-
4
5
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
4
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-


8
+6/+1
+6
+2
+6
Bonus Feat (Artificer), Dark Knowledge (Foe)
250
5/day
3
3
3
1
-
-
4
5
4
4
3
-
-
-
-
-
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-
-


9
+6/+1
+6
+3
+6
Craft Rod
300
6/day
3
3
3
2
-
-
4
5
5
4
3
2
-
-
-
-
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-


10
+7/+2
+7
+3
+7
Bonus Feat (Archivist), Bonus Feat (Wizard)
400
6/day
3
3
3
2
-
-
4
5
5
4
4
3
-
-
-
-
4
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-


11
+8/+3
+7
+3
+7
Dark Knowledge (Dread Secret), Metamagic Spell Completion
500
6/day
3
3
3
2
1
-
4
5
5
5
4
3
2
-
-
-
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-
-


12
+9/+4
+8
+4
+8
Bonus Feat (Artificer), Craft Staff
700
7/day
3
3
3
2
2
-
4
5
5
5
4
4
3
-
-
-
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-


13
+9/+4
+8
+4
+8
Lore Mastery, Skill Mastery
900
7/day
3
3
3
3
2
-
4
5
5
5
5
4
3
2
-
-
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-


14
+10/+5
+9
+4
+9
Dark Knowledge (Foreknowledge), Forge Ring
1200
7/day
4
3
3
3
3
1
4
5
5
5
5
4
4
3
-
-
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
-
-


15
+11/+6/+1
+9
+5
+9
Bonus Feat (Wizard)
1500
8/day
4
4
3
3
3
2
4
5
5
5
5
5
4
3
2
-
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
-


16
+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
Bonus Feat (Artificer)
2000
8/day
4
4
4
3
3
2
4
5
5
5
5
5
4
4
3
-
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
-


17
+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
Lore Mastery
2500
8/day
4
4
4
4
3
3
4
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
3
2
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1


18
+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11
-
3000
9/day
4
4
4
4
4
3
4
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
4
3
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2


19
+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11
-
4000
9/day
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3


20
+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12
Bonus Feat (Archivist), Bonus Feat (Artificer), Bonus Feat (Wizard)
5000
9/day
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
5
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4





EDIT: Which of these five do you think punch up a tier?

[Jormengand]

I think the last bit is important. There's a difference between combining classes that have synergy and classes that have overlap. Consider some of these combos that are all pulled from the same tier, and tell me what you think:

Pfft, amateur. Let me show you how it's done:

Aristocrat/Samurai/Soulknife


LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st+1+2+2+2Daisho Proficiency, Mind blade, Weapon Focus (mind blade), Wild Talent
2nd+2+3+3+3Throw mind blade, Two Swords as One
3rd+3+3+3+3Psychic Strike 1d8, Kiai Smite 1/day
4th+4+4+4+4+1 Mind Blade
5th+5+4+4+4Iaijutsu master, Free Draw, Shape Mind Blade
6th+6/+1+5+5+5Mind Blade Enchantment +1, Speed of Thought, Staredown
7th+7/+2+5+5+5Kiai Smite 2/day, Psychic Strike 2d8
8th+8/+3+6+6+6Improved Initiative
9th+9/+4+6+6+6Bladewind, Greater Weapon Focus (mind blade)
10th+10/+5+7+7+7Mass Staredown, Mind Blade Enchantment +2
11th+11/+6/+1+7+7+7Improved Two Swords as One, Psychic Strike 3d8
12th+12/+7/+2+8+8+8Kiai Smite 3/day
13th+13/+8/+3+8+8+8Knife to the Soul
14th+14/+9/+4+9+9+9Improved Staredown, Mind Blade Enchantment +3
15th+15/+10/+5+9+9+9Psychic Strike 4d8
16th+16/+11/+6/+1+10+10+10Greater Two Swords as One
17th+17/+12/+7/+2+10+10+10Multiple Throw, Kiai Smite 4/day
18th+18/+13/+8/+3+11+11+11Mind Blade Enchantment +4
19th+19/+14/+9/+4+11+11+11Psychic Strike 5d8
20th+20/+15/+10/+5+12+12+12Frightful Presence

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
The daimyo's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Survival (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

[Bucky]

The F//K//M tristalt looks like it has a lot of tactical options for a mundane melee class at mid levels.

I basically ask for four things from melee. They should be able to efficiently remove an enemy pawn from the board (charging). They should be able to pressure a large enemy's HP total (DPS). They should be able to get in an enemy caster or archer's face and disrupt them (Tackle). And they should be able to keep enemy chargers and tacklers off their party's back line (Interdiction).

In 3.5, mid-level melee characters can generally manage two of these. The tristalt can build for all four.

Charger: It has feat support for a mounted charger build. It gets +Cha to charge damage. It has a bunch of native stacking to-hit bonuses for Power Attack. It's short Pounce from being able to ubercharge independently of the mount, but can pump its Jump check for Leap Attack. An intelligent mount benefits from the Marshal auras.

DPS: Again, it stacks to-hit bonuses with full BAB and Power Attacks. At high levels, it gets to crit-fish a bit by switching the minor aura to Accurate Strike after rolling a critical threat. Nothing special here, but it adds up to competence with little investment.

Tackle: It gets Cha to trip, and enough bonus feats to pick up Improved Trip OR enough AC to avoid AoOs from most of what it would tackle. And once an FKM is on top of you, Bulwark of Defense keeps you from 5' stepping away, at which point it can try to stuff your casting attempt with readied attacks.

Interdiction: This is already the one thing Knights are really good at, and the FKM has the bonus feats and self-aura numbers to enhance it further. The FKM can cheese out opponents by taunting them and hiding behind a tower shield.

With the large number of bonus feats and the ability to swiftly change auras, a single FKM can do all of the above in ways that complement each other. For example, he can use his mount to chase down his tackling victims and his tackling combat maneuvers to lock down his interdiction targets. And he does all this while providing some very relevant aura bonuses to his allies, most notably on the initiative roll.

Verdict: Low tier 3 just based on combat plus diplomacy; can rise in tier 3 by augmenting all the party's skill checks particularly if Aid Another abuse is in play.

In a T1 party he hangs out with the summons like any mundane martial character but is better than any existing mundane martial class at hanging out with your summons.

[Metahuman1]

I'd say high tier 4 low tier 3. Which is a good thing.

If you land a solid Int and maybe, say, pick up nymphs kiss, you can be a solid party face, an maybe dabble in scouting, or be a reasonably good knowledge monkey if the party doesn't have one. (Which also gives you room for knowledge devotion. ). So you've got options for out of combat. And you can probably find a point to afford a couple of cross class spell craft ranks to get the Mage Slayer featline online.


Speaking of, you can add Mage Slayer, maybe knowledge devotion, and the knights class features, and mounted combat. Buy a good lance and a good mount and you can be a legit problem for a normal fireball or cure serious wounds type caster. And with the auras and some class feature benefits, you can preform respectably in combat in general as well.

[Lans]

Knight and fighter definitely won't. The hit die and will save are probably worth more than everything else the knight gives you... combined. Monk and fighter definitely won't, because the fighter is better off ignoring the monk abilities and hitting things with a greatsword while wearing full plate. Divine mind and fighter might if you're exceptionally careful and know what you're doing, but that's a far cry from almost any pair.

Do you disagree with barbarians being tier 4?

[Gnaeus]

Do you disagree with barbarians being tier 4?

This!

I agree that the HD and will save are the best things that knight gives fighter (and bulwark of defense). But when evaluating a tier question that basically translates to (can a fighter fight things) those aren’t insignificant! Fighter could ignore everything in monk except for 2 good saves and free grapple/trip/combat reflexes and be as good at fighting things as a Barbarian. The only reason Fighter isn’t in T4 innately is that a TWFer or S&B or split specialization may not be able to fight. Trippers and chargers are there pretty much anyway.

[Jormengand]

Do you disagree with barbarians being tier 4?

They're certainly not high in T4, but even just their +numbers are generally stronger than anything the fighter can do. Oh what's that fighter, you have a +1 to hit with your greatsword, that's nice I have a +2 to hit and +3 to damage with it. That sort of thing; yes I understand that weapon specialisation is a bad feat but there aren't many good fighter feats around. They're not much better than fighters and honestly they're only just in T4 by virtue of being slightly less ineffectual in combat than fighter//knight or fighter//monk.

[EndocrineBandit]

Swap out fighter for healer from the miniatures handbook.. at level 7 you get a unicorn mount, plus survivability boosts.

[Lans]

They're certainly not high in T4, but even just their +numbers are generally stronger than anything the fighter can do. Oh what's that fighter, you have a +1 to hit with your greatsword, that's nice I have a +2 to hit and +3 to damage with it. That sort of thing; yes I understand that weapon specialisation is a bad feat but there aren't many good fighter feats around. They're not much better than fighters and honestly they're only just in T4 by virtue of being slightly less ineffectual in combat than fighter//knight or fighter//monk.

I think you are underestimating the knight, divine mind and soulborn if you think they won;t hit tier 4 when gestalted with the fighter.

The knight has its challenge ability, and an ability that aids in spike chain lock downs.

Divine Mind gives a bonus to hit and damage, and is probably just full base attack bonus away from being tier 4 itself.

Soulborn gets lucky dice, and can get bonus damage when power attacking.


None of those match rage on those classes, but if you add in what the fighter brings it adds up.

[Jormengand]

The knight has its challenge ability, and an ability that aids in spike chain lock downs.

Let's just check out what the challenge ability actually does. It provides, temporarily, a +1 to attack, damage and will. What does rage provide? Temporarily, +2 to attack, +3 to damage, and +2 to fortitude and will. The challenge and rage both scale with level, but even the barbarian's DR eventually scales higher than the damage boost of the challenge. It allows you to force enemies to attack you if they fail a save based on your dump stat, or what should be your dump stat particularly if you're also a fighter or a monk. It doesn't even force them not to hit your allies too! Call to battle makes paladins die of laughter but not much else, daunting challenge provides a debuff that no-one will notice at level 12 if they fail a trivial will save, bond of loyalty provides a benefit against abilities you ought to be immune to, and loyal beyond death allows you to keep trying to kill people but only if you're screwed anyway... what's so amazing about this ability? That's not even to mention that you lose a use of it if you, heavens forbid, win initiative. How dishonourable!

Your class features scale up to grant you abilities which only function against people who try to run away, abilities which only work if you use a suboptimal fighting style, and finally, at level 17, an ability which is virtually guaranteed to do nothing.

I wasn't joking when I said I'd probably take the will save and d12 hit die over literally everything else knight gives a fighter. At least not being charmed or held never goes out of fashion.

[Gnaeus]

Your class features scale up to grant you abilities which only function against people who try to run away, abilities which only work if you use a suboptimal fighting style, and finally, at level 17, an ability which is virtually guaranteed to do nothing.

I wasn't joking when I said I'd probably take the will save and d12 hit die over literally everything else knight gives a fighter. At least not being charmed or held never goes out of fashion.

I hate knight but that’s a tad harsh. Bulwark of Defense/ Vigilant Defender are handy for control builds. And the bonus feats are a minor but non 0 bonus. Iron Will and Great Fortitude help you do your job, Quick Draw is occasionally useful for some builds, diehard is better than nothing, and some chargers could use WF lance. Armor mastery is comparable to Barbarian fast movement. And at some point you may want a buckler or floating shield.

[Lans]

Let's just check out what the challenge ability actually does. It provides, temporarily, a +1 to attack, damage and will. What does rage provide? Temporarily, +2 to attack, +3 to damage, and +2 to fortitude and will. ..

That is why I said that it doesn't match rage, but when you add in fighter it adds up. At first level its +2 to attack, 1 to damage, and 3 to will for 1 battle and +1 to attack and 2 to will for the rest of the battles, vs the barbarians rage for 1 battle. At 4th it becomes +2 to attack/3 to damage, and 4 to will for 2 fights, and 1 to attack, 2 to damage, and 3 to will for the rest. At 4th you can match the barbarians speed in medium armor, at 5th you can match his fortitude boost, at 7th another +1 to attack, damage, will, at 8 another 2 to attack and damage, at 10 another point of attack, and at 11th the barbarians rage finally gets half again better.

Edit- The rage also gives -2 to AC

[Caelestion]

I like this class mash-up - more powers, more stuff to do and not greatly changing its niche. Is there a similar mash-up that could be done for the dragon shaman?

[Gnaeus]

I like this class mash-up - more powers, more stuff to do and not greatly changing its niche. Is there a similar mash-up that could be done for the dragon shaman?

DS/Marshall/Paladin? That would be a pretty strong Tier 3.

[Lans]

DS/Marshall/Paladin? That would be a pretty strong Tier 3.

I was thinking DS/Adept/Expert

[Caelestion]

I think that adding spells would be over-complicated (and the paladin would create alignment complications). Maybe, Marshal/Dragonfire Adept/Dragon Shaman would be a good mash-up, given that then means lots more auras and dragon powers, in addition to the dragon shaman fluff (but perhaps that would be too conservative).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I like this class mash-up - more powers, more stuff to do and not greatly changing its niche. Is there a similar mash-up that could be done for the dragon shaman?
Dragon shaman doesn't have a lot of strong, active class features, but it's got a solid chassis and nice passives. You can slap it onto anything vaguely dragon-themed, like sorcerer, dragonfire adept, or totemist (there's a few draconic melds). However, if you want to stick with the tier 4-5 tristalt, there aren't a lot of options.

The dragon shaman class description claims it's a melee-oriented class, so maybe dragon shaman/CW samurai/barbarian? Nice melee power, to be sure, and a lot of Intimidate synergy. Breath weapon absolutely needs quickening, though.

Another good option is dragon shaman/bard. Dragonfire Inspiration makes that one work.

[Thurbane]

I was thinking DS/Adept/Expert

DS/Paladin/Expert would be decent. Full BAB (full armor and MWP), good skills, Cha synergy, and all of the passives that DS offers.

[Caelestion]

You'd need to have all four types of paladin if you were merging it with the DS, due to its existing alignment code. Paladin/Marshal/DS seems like a fun combo though, if both codes are observed.

Maybe it's just me, but adding in NPC classes, particularly the Expert, seems to be rather missing the point of making the overall merged class more effective.

[Caelestion]

So, I merged the DS and DFA and then threw in the CW Samurai's BAB, Kiai smite and staredown abilities for good measure. There is some distinct overlap between the abilities and the only thing that makes me think that the class is too busy is getting both auras and invocations. Other than that, I think that with a few tweaks, it would be much more effective.




Level
Base Attack
Fort
Refl
Will
Breath
Auras
Invoc.
Dragon Shaman / Dragonfire Adept // Samurai


1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
1d6
3
1
Draconic aura +1, totem dragon / Breath 1d6 (15’ cone/30’ line), Dragontouched, least invocations // –


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3
1d6
3
1
Skill Focus / Breath effect, scales +2 // Kiai smite 1/day


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
2d6
4
2
Draconic adaptation / Breath 2d6 // –


4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
2d6
4
2
Breath 2d6 (15’ cone/30’ line), draconic resolve / Dragonkin // –


5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
3d6
5
2
Draconic aura +2 / Breath 3d6, breath effect // –


6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
3d6
5
3
Breath 3d6, touch of vitality (heal wounds) / DR 2/magic, lesser invocations // Staredown


7th
+7/+2
+5
+2
+5
4d6
6
3
Natural armour +1 / Breath 4d6 // Kiai smite 2/day // –


8th
+8/+3
+6
+2
+6
4d6
6
4
Breath 4d6, Skill Focus / Scales +3 // –


9th
+9/+4
+6
+3
+6
5d6
7
4
Energy immunity / Breath 5d6 // –


10th
+10/+5
+7
+3
+7
5d6
7
4
Breath 5d6, draconic aura +3 / Breath 30’ cone/60’ line, breath effect // Mass staredown


11th
+11/+6+/1
+7
+3
+7
6d6
7
5
Touch of vitality (remove conditions) / Breath 6d6, greater invocations // –


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+8
6d6
7
5
Breath 6d6 (30’ cone/60’ line), natural armour +2 / Breath effect // Kiai smite 3/day


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+8
7d6
7
6
Draconic adaptation (share with allies) / Scales +4 // –


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+9
7d6
7
6
Breath 7d6, commune with dragon spirit / Breath 7d6 // Improved staredown


15th
+15/+10+/5
+9
+5
+9
7d6
7
6
Draconic aura +4 / Breath effect // –


16th
+16/+11+/6/+1
+10
+5
+10
8d6
7
7
Breath 8d6, Skill Focus / DR 2/magic, dark invocations // –


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10
8d6
7
7
Natural armour +3 / Breath 8d6 // Kiai smite 4/day


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11
9d6
7
8
Breath 9d6 / Scales +5 // –


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11
9d6
7
8
Draconic wings / Immunity to paralysis & sleep // –


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12
10d6
7
8
Breath 10d6 (60’ cone/120’ line), draconic aura +5 / Breath 9d6, breath effect // Frightful presence



Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills: Class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str).

Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) ×4 at 1st-level, and 4 + Int modifier thereafter.

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Proficient with simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armour, and with shields (except tower shields).

[Bucky]

Dragonfire Adept can play uptier from Dragon Shaman by itself, thanks to utility invocations and consistent AC-bypassing damage.

[Caelestion]

Well (a) I wasn't sure what the tier rating of DFA was supposed to be anyway, (b) the good BAB could be dropped and (c) I was planning to restrict the default breath weapon energy/shape to the DS totem to keep it within the original DS theme.

[Cosi]

I still think Sorcerer gestalt is the easy solution to the problems of classes like the Dragon Shaman. It solves the problems those classes have (that they suck) and the problems the Sorcerer has (that it has no secondary shtick). Plus, since the classes you're adding to are magical, there's no concern about theme breaking.

[Thurbane]

Dragon Shaman/Hexblade/X might also be interesting. Give the DS full BAB, some minor spellcasting, and hex abilities. Mettle is nice with good Fort and Will saves.

Mountebank base class from Dragon Compendium is another option...

[Caelestion]

I still think Sorcerer gestalt is the easy solution to the problems of classes like the Dragon Shaman.

Well, yes, giving everyone 9th-level casting would solve the "martials suck" issue, but that's perhaps throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Cosi]

Well, yes, giving everyone 9th-level casting would solve the "martials suck" issue, but that's perhaps throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Well, that depends. What are your priorities? The classes that have 9th level spells are, especially relative to the game as a whole, a level playing field. If you stick everyone there, you can be reasonably confident that all the PCs will be able to contribute, and it takes way less work than doing re-writes to put things there naturally. Is it perfect? Of course not. But it's a solution that does very well on a lot of good metrics.

[Nifft]

Dragon Shaman/Hexblade/X might also be interesting. Give the DS full BAB, some minor spellcasting, and hex abilities. Mettle is nice with good Fort and Will saves.

Mountebank base class from Dragon Compendium is another option...

I was thinking Dragon Shaman // Soulborn // Healer, partially for the thematic compatibility ("I channel souls of those greater than myself" + "I am a heal-bot"), but also for the combat-role synergy -- you'd be a leader who can do stuff at the front lines, plus a bunch of passive buffing from your Auras.

It's a bit MAD, but there's some Con synergy (for soulmelds & breath weapon DC & making Concentration checks to cast healing spells on the front lines), which is nice.

[Gnaeus]

Just Dragon Shaman//healer seems sufficient. Like DFA, Healer is pretty uptier, at least if exalted spells are in play.

[weckar]

I'd say a Solid T4 that MAY curve into T3 at higher levels only. Is that weird?

[Lans]

I'd say a Solid T4 that MAY curve into T3 at higher levels only. Is that weird?

Its arguable that healer can hit tier 3 by themselves if you factor in exalted spells and their companion.


They're certainly not high in T4, but even just their +numbers are generally stronger than anything the fighter can do. Oh what's that fighter, you have a +1 to hit with your greatsword, that's nice I have a +2 to hit and +3 to damage with it. That sort of thing; yes I understand that weapon specialisation is a bad feat but there aren't many good fighter feats around. They're not much better than fighters and honestly they're only just in T4 by virtue of being slightly less ineffectual in combat than fighter//knight or fighter//monk.


I think you are underestimating the knight, divine mind and soulborn if you think they won;t hit tier 4 when gestalted with the fighter.

On rereading this, I think it would be better to say your underestimating the fighter, which I think is just barely falls short of tier 4, to the point that adding just about any tier 5 class, or even aristocrat, to it will push it over to tier 4.

[Jormengand]

On rereading this, I think it would be better to say your underestimating the fighter, which I think is just barely falls short of tier 4, to the point that adding just about any tier 5 class, or even aristocrat, to it will push it over to tier 4.

The fighter fails at basic job competence even at high-OP (see also: 50 pages of GitP-OP fighter failing to beat an equal-CR encounter despite numerous iterations and specialising against that one specific encounter) so I don't think I am underestimating the fighter - something which is very hard to do.

[Eldariel]

The fighter fails at basic job competence even at high-OP (see also: 50 pages of GitP-OP fighter failing to beat an equal-CR encounter despite numerous iterations and specialising against that one specific encounter) so I don't think I am underestimating the fighter - something which is very hard to do.

That was a Core Fighter though; with all sources, Fighter can trivially become nigh' impossible to detect, invulnerable to almost anything, autowin vs. anything vulnerable to Intimidate, and able to one-shot anything that can be killed. Of course, little of that is Fighter-specific but getting a billion feats is nice if DCFS is on the table (and even without that it at least opens up your other feats to pick up utility without giving up your ability to oneshot anything). But yeah, that doesn't speak much for Fighter's abilities in and of themselves but the feats that are available - you could also get 9th level spell slots with feat shuffles on level 1 if you felt like it.

[Jormengand]

That was a Core Fighter though; with all sources, Fighter can trivially become nigh' impossible to detect, invulnerable to almost anything, autowin vs. anything vulnerable to Intimidate, and able to one-shot anything that can be killed. Of course, little of that is Fighter-specific but getting a billion feats is nice if DCFS is on the table (and even without that it at least opens up your other feats to pick up utility without giving up your ability to oneshot anything). But yeah, that doesn't speak much for Fighter's abilities in and of themselves but the feats that are available - you could also get 9th level spell slots with feat shuffles on level 1 if you felt like it.

Yes, yes, player>build>class, see also Truenamer McApocalypse, but that has nothing to do with actual fighters. Honestly, the steel fighter had very little to do with being a fighter at that point either.

[Gnaeus]

The fighter fails at basic job competence even at high-OP (see also: 50 pages of GitP-OP fighter failing to beat an equal-CR encounter despite numerous iterations and specialising against that one specific encounter) so I don't think I am underestimating the fighter - something which is very hard to do.

Ok, I’ll bite. What is this encounter that a specificly designed high op fighter can’t defeat but a Barbarian can?

[Jormengand]

Ok, I’ll bite. What is this encounter that a specificly designed high op fighter can’t defeat but a Barbarian can?

To be honest? I'm not sure a barbarian can either. I'm not convinced that a core barbarian really fits the T4 box either, though it gets there because it has skills which actually do something, so it can be mediocre at enough things to push it over the boundry. It's not about defeating the pit fiend: the barbarian is not only slightly more combat-capable than the knightershal (so it provides an almost-appropriate contribution to fighting the pit fiend, rather , but also has skills almost on par with the knightershal - essentially, the knightershal is slightly better in areas than the barbarian and slightly worse than others. A knighter, or monkter, or other portmanteu-named class of your choice, is generally not able to deliver the more shining medicrity that a barbarian delivers.

It's like asking why the rogue or bard is T4 or T3 if they can't defeat the pit fiend either, only less so - the fighter had one job and it failed at it. The barbarian had multiple jobs and it did okay.

[Gnaeus]

To be honest? I'm not sure a barbarian can either. I'm not convinced that a core barbarian really fits the T4 box either, though it gets there because it has skills which actually do something, so it can be mediocre at enough things to push it over the boundry. It's not about defeating the pit fiend: the barbarian is not only slightly more combat-capable than the knightershal (so it provides an almost-appropriate contribution to fighting the pit fiend, rather , but also has skills almost on par with the knightershal - essentially, the knightershal is slightly better in areas than the barbarian and slightly worse than others. A knighter, or monkter, or other portmanteu-named class of your choice, is generally not able to deliver the more shining medicrity that a barbarian delivers.

It's like asking why the rogue or bard is T4 or T3 if they can't defeat the pit fiend either, only less so - the fighter had one job and it failed at it. The barbarian had multiple jobs and it did okay.

The Barbarian has one job. Fighting things. Anything that can fight things as well as the Barbarian is definitionally T4. If the Barbarian can’t beat it, it isn’t an appropriate T4 test (unless we are demonstrating how something is sitting higher in T4 than Barbarian. Like fighting something targeting a will save which the Barbarian might lose to and the knightershall could defeat). The Barbarian’s non fighting contributions are not only near 0, but also less than the knightershall (which has the same skills, a better list, and skill boosting class abilities and limited team buffing) so if anything, the knightershall could be a little less fighty than Barbarian (which again isn’t true, since it is better at fighting than the Barbarian, as we have repeatedly demonstrated) and still be T4. If you don’t like the tier definitions, I suggest a different thread. We aren’t trying to figure out where tier 4 is. We know where it is. It is at or below Barbarian and rogue.

[daremetoidareyo]

you can dump dex to 10ish and use those stats for charisma. motivate dexterity will give you your initiative bonus back and stack with your ride skill. Further, it empowers your mount with increased dex. If your mount is a spider, and/or it has the agile athlete feat, you can use their move silently/hide/climb/jump checks in full armor.

[The Shadowmind]

How about a Duskblade//Spell thief//Lurk?
You could change it so that the casting from the Thief's and Duskblades list, but with Duskblade progression.

[Nifft]

How about a Duskblade//Spell thief//Lurk?
You could change it so that the casting from the Thief's and Duskblades list, but with Duskblade progression.

Spellthief // Lurk is actually a lot better than the sum of their parts -- with Psithief, you can get temporary PP that you immediately channel into Lurk augments, which are otherwise expensive to the point of uselessness.

It's not actually good, but it's better than it appears.

Adding full-BAB and Duskblade's generally okay competence on top of that seems like it might become playable. Maybe.

[Gnaeus]

I thought duskblade was low T3 by itself

[The Shadowmind]

I thought duskblade was low T3 by itself


It is list as tier 3, but I don't see it a better than a high T4. It does one thing well(damage), but doesn't have much else.

[Gnaeus]

Without debating healer or duskblade, it seems like tristalt with 3s and high 4s is pretty far removed from the original 3 Tier 5 concept. You are basically starting with something competent and making it marginally more competent.

[Eldariel]

It is list as tier 3, but I don't see it a better than a high T4. It does one thing well(damage), but doesn't have much else.

Eh, it gets up to 5th level spells and a lot of them. There aren't that many great utility spells on their list but there are a few standouts in Obscuring Mist, Swift Invisibility, Swift Fly, Dimension Hop, See Invisibility, Regroup, Dispelling Touch, Dispel Magic/Slashing Dispel, Dimension Door, Disintegrate and various forms of energy protection. They are also with some Int-reliance and have a way better skill list than most martials (all Knowledges, Spellcraft). It starts off really strong and falters higher up but the grand picture is that it's really good at its given job (there's some relevance to how good you are at your given specialty too, after all; Duskblades have some AoE to speak of for instance) and has a bunch of tricks for other stuff.

[The Shadowmind]

Okay then:
Spellthief(Trickster)// Lurk(True Thief) //Hexblade(Dark Companion).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Knight/Healer/Marshal was mentioned, and seems interesting. Almost a 3.5 prototype for the PF Paladin, but with a healing-focused spell list. Obviously Crusader would be better than Knight (actually, change Healing Hands to work with maneuvers and drop the spells and you’ve got a pretty good martial combat healer/tank), but that’s mixing Tier 3s again.

If you make Duskblade psionic that Lurk/Psithief/Duskblade tristalt looks pretty fun too. Especially with ACFs. A martial psionic class that specializes in fighting other psionic creatures? Awesome, if campaign-dependent.

On a related topic: What tier would you say a Truenamer/Archivist without spellcasting is? Still Truenamer Tier, or do the Archivist’s other features bump it up?

[Lans]

Meant to post this earlier, but I exited out of my browser.
The Barbarian has one job. Fighting things. Anything that can fight things as well as the Barbarian is definitionally T4. If the Barbarian can’t beat it, it isn’t an appropriate T4 test (unless we are demonstrating how something is sitting higher in T4 than Barbarian. Like fighting something targeting a will save which the Barbarian might lose to and the knightershall could defeat). The Barbarian’s non fighting contributions are not only near 0, but also less than the knightershall (which has the same skills, a better list, and skill boosting class abilities and limited team buffing) so if anything, the knightershall could be a little less fighty than Barbarian (which again isn’t true, since it is better at fighting than the Barbarian, as we have repeatedly demonstrated) and still be T4. If you don’t like the tier definitions, I suggest a different thread. We aren’t trying to figure out where tier 4 is. We know where it is. It is at or below Barbarian and rogue.

You are under representing what the barbarian does, he has 4 skill points and a few decent skills, and when it comes to fighting things a big difference between the barbarian and he fighter is that he has really good will and fortitude saves while raging.


To be honest? I'm not sure a barbarian can either. I'm not convinced that a core barbarian really fits the T4 box either, though it gets there because it has skills which actually do something, so it can be mediocre at enough things to push it over the boundry. It's not about defeating the pit fiend: the barbarian is not only slightly more combat-capable than the knightershal (so it provides an almost-appropriate contribution to fighting the pit fiend, rather , but also has skills almost on par with the knightershal - essentially, the knightershal is slightly better in areas than the barbarian and slightly worse than others. A knighter, or monkter, or other portmanteu-named class of your choice, is generally not able to deliver the more shining medicrity that a barbarian delivers.

It's like asking why the rogue or bard is T4 or T3 if they can't defeat the pit fiend either, only less so - the fighter had one job and it failed at it. The barbarian had multiple jobs and it did okay.

You are incorrect in stating that the barbarian is more combat capable than the knightershal, a fighter is capable of delivering more damage than a phb barbarian, the knight can bring this up even further vs intelligent foes, as well as shoring up the fighters mobility and defenses, and the marshal brings the damage and skills up.

The main thing keeping the fighter and barbarian apart is the barbarians defenses, and skills which the monk covers pretty decently. It has a grab bag of defenses that can be considered comparable to the barbarians uncanny dodge and dr, its high saves compensates against the barbarians save boosts while raging, it has its own bonus against enchantment effects. The only thing that is a lot harder to compare is the barbarians buku Hit Points of which the best counter I have is the fighter being able to take combat focus line for fast healing.

I think we can find more Fighter/ Tier 5 comboes that get to tier 4 than don't

[Gnaeus]

You are under representing what the barbarian does, he has 4 skill points and a few decent skills, and when it comes to fighting things a big difference between the barbarian and he fighter is that he has really good will and fortitude saves while raging.


And I value skills more than most. But the Barbarian skills are similar to fighter ones. Handle animal and intimidate with no Cha synergy. No UMD. Can’t scout well. Can’t face well. He isn’t a skillmonkey by any stretch of the imagination, and is in fact way worse in that role than the knightershall with his auras and Cha synergy and skill focus. He basically hits things hard, he’s just marginally less likely to be surprised with his listen ranks, and maybe there will be a tracking check sometime and he can roll some survival dice. Compare with anything//monk. Hide and move silent, spot and listen. That’s a scout. Diplomacy and sense motive let you build a marginally decent social character.

When it comes to fighting the big difference is that fighters are harder to build. And there are 2 big reasons for that.
1. Barbarians are thematically strength fighters with big weapons. A casual look by a low system mastery player will see that their core ability is a big boost to str. The obvious and thematic way to play a Barbarian is to give him a big 2 handed weapon, which happens to be probably the most effective fighting style in 3.5. Fighters have multiple trap options they can accidentally and well meaningly throw feats into.
2. For fighters to actually leverage their feats into a manner that competes with Barbarian, they need planning and feat trees. Often they need to take bad feats for later rewards. Barbarian is much more likely to be viable taking things that look good at the time. That for me is the textbook difference between low and middle op. Mid op fighters can compete with mid op Barbarians. Low op fighters can’t. To look it another way, most Barbarian class features would equal feats that are better than average feats, so a fighter picking average feats is behind the curve.

[BassoonHero]

What about a tristalt Paladin/Marshal/Healer? This might make a decent out-of-the-box upgrade to the base paladin.

We might reasonably suppose that:
The healer doesn't get extra spells (e.g. Sanctified spells).
The paladin's mount and healer's unicorn are consolidated in some reasonable manner.

The chassis has full BAB, two good saves, d10 hit dice, and 4 skill points/level. It gets all of the standard paladin stuff, marshal auras, and great healing. Would this be a solid tier 4?

[Gnaeus]

What about a tristalt Paladin/Marshal/Healer? This might make a decent out-of-the-box upgrade to the base paladin.

We might reasonably suppose that:
The healer doesn't get extra spells (e.g. Sanctified spells).
The paladin's mount and healer's unicorn are consolidated in some reasonable manner.

The chassis has full BAB, two good saves, d10 hit dice, and 4 skill points/level. It gets all of the standard paladin stuff, marshal auras, and great healing. Would this be a solid tier 4?

I’d say a solid T3. Slightly better at fighting than a Paladin (thanks to better pet, will save, freedom of movement/death ward and auras). Having a full spell list allows access to tricks that use spell slots (raiment of the 4). A Paladin with splat support was probably T4 already, and this adds considerable healing chops, a pet spellcaster, incredible social abilities, some buffing, and Gate. Easily comparable to Bard or Crusader.

[BassoonHero]

I mentally wrote in “can't use Healer slots to cast spells off the list”, then actually wrote in something that doesn't quite mean that. Also, I should have specifically excluded Gate, which arguably moves the Healer from tier 5 to tier 2 at level 17. But your argument makes sense.

I'm working on a revised paladin inspired by that tristalt. The core class features will be:


Auras, continuous effects that provide buffs and protection to the entire party. Each aura will be narrow; as the paladin levels up they gain more choices and can apply several at a time.
Boons, standard-action effects (eventually swift) that give a greater, temporary benefit to one character, such as healing or rerolling a save.
Smites, which can be applied with or without a weapon as a standard action. Effects may include damage, debuffs, dispelling, banishment, dimensional anchor, and so on.


I'm hoping to subsume most of the paladin and healer class features, as well as all of their spells, into these categories. Combined with general buffs to martial characters, I'm optimistic about tier 3.

[Lans]

And I value skills more than most. But the Barbarian skills are similar to fighter ones. Handle animal and intimidate with no Cha synergy. No UMD. Can’t scout well. Can’t face well. He isn’t a skillmonkey by any stretch of the imagination, and is in fact way worse in that role than the knightershall with his auras and Cha synergy and skill focus. He basically hits things hard, he’s just marginally less likely to be surprised with his listen ranks, and maybe there will be a tracking check sometime and he can roll some survival dice. Compare with anything//monk. Hide and move silent, spot and listen. That’s a scout. Diplomacy and sense motive let you build a marginally decent social character.
I wasn't trying to imply that that they were good at skills, just that they shouldn't be neglected by saying a barbarian is just about combat.


When it comes to fighting the big difference is that fighters are harder to build. And there are 2 big reasons for that.
1. Barbarians are thematically strength fighters with big weapons. A casual look by a low system mastery player will see that their core ability is a big boost to str. The obvious and thematic way to play a Barbarian is to give him a big 2 handed weapon, which happens to be probably the most effective fighting style in 3.5. Fighters have multiple trap options they can accidentally and well meaningly throw feats into.
2. For fighters to actually leverage their feats into a manner that competes with Barbarian, they need planning and feat trees. Often they need to take bad feats for later rewards. Barbarian is much more likely to be viable taking things that look good at the time. That for me is the textbook difference between low and middle op. Mid op fighters can compete with mid op Barbarians. Low op fighters can’t. To look it another way, most Barbarian class features would equal feats that are better than average feats, so a fighter picking average feats is behind the curve.

Those are also a factor, but I think the barbarians skills and defenses are what will pull it a head at mid points and makes the situation way more even at higher ops.

[Gnaeus]

I wasn't trying to imply that that they were good at skills, just that they shouldn't be neglected by saying a barbarian is just about combat.

Given that they lack skills that let them carry out a role, that they lack the most generically useful skills, and that their best skills are all based off dump stats (wis and Cha), I don’t feel bad about saying that. Monk gets (justifiably) panned as a skillmonkey but is way better than Barbarian. Barbarian isn’t in T4 because it brings utility to the table, it’s in T4 because it’s tough and hits things hard.

[The Shadowmind]

All the tier 5 classes gestalted together would be a fairly viable character.

[Bucky]

If the goal is simply T4, I don't think Marshal needs a lot of help. They get there anyway for some very narrow niches where the whole party benefits from the auras.

Add a decent use for standard actions and your Marshal pulls his weight in combat even if the party isn't built around him. Examples would be Marshal//Hexblade with minor spells or Marshal//Samurai with archery.

Add a decent skill list and more skill points, e.g. Marshal//Expert, and you have a Cha-SAD skill-monkey. You can have Cha to hide and move silently, Cha to spot and listen, Cha to a couple of arbitrary knowledges, and 2x Cha to diplomacy and UPD, all on the same character. Further, you do some skill-monkeying by proxy by donating your Cha to other PCs' trained skills so you don't even need to pump Int for extra skill points.

As skillmonkey gestalt options go, Marshal//Savant stands out because it lets the entire party e.g. sneak as well as rogues could.

[Gnaeus]

All the tier 5 classes gestalted together would be a fairly viable character.

For certain definitions of viable.

A monk//fighter//Ninja//swashbuckler//knight//soulknife//divine mind//Marshall is significantly superior to any ToB class or duskblade at fighting. Barring things like infinite loops, it’s the games best damage dealer, with very solid unarmored defenses and a lot of free WBL since no need to buy weapons or armor. It has some problem combinations, like levels of intimidate which set up binary situations in which all enemies are fear immune or completely useless.

There would be a couple of questions that would need to be answered first.
1. Is RAW diplomacy a thing? If so, it has high tier game breaking power.
2. Are we using the original JaronK tiers? Is Paladin T5? Healer?

Without Paladin or Healer it’s top T3. High levels of Wblmancy, amazing skillmonkey, incredible combatant, some movement tricks (like DDoor and etherealness) and a few psionic and incarna tricks for good measure.
With Paladin and Healer I’d play it preferentially over a T1 at most optimization levels. It now has high level slots to leverage, action economy tricks from battle Blessing, and a pet caster. It can’t check all the T1 boxes like an all T4 gestalt, but it’s crazy strong at being an adventurer

[ExLibrisMortis]

monk//fighter//Ninja//swashbuckler//knight//soulknife//divine mind//Marshall
The marshal is considered tier 4, though. An all-tier 5 polystalt has fighter, monk, CA ninja, swashbuckler, soulknife, expert, OA samurai, knight, and CW samurai (assuming healer and paladin move up to t4 or beyond, and the Rokugan ninja is left out). And, arguably, that fighter can't be a Zhentarim dungeoncrasher, because that's rated separately at tier 4.

Chassis: draconic. d12 hit die, full base attack, three good saves, six skill points per level.
Class features: about 30 bonus feats (most are from narrow fighter-esque lists, though), precision damage, a lot of class skills, some semi-useful weapons, and a lot of overlap. For example, you get daisho proficiency (masterwork items), daisho proficiency (Ancestral Relic-style), mind blade, and monk unarmed damage. Of those, you'll only really want to use one--probably two-handing the Ancestral Relic katana, or flurrying the unarmed strikes. You probably won't use the swashbuckler or knight class features, because you get that wisdom to AC (twice) and a free two-hander. You probably won't be using the samurai intimidate abilities alongside the knight's challenge abilities. And so on, and so on.

Casting-wise, you're stuck with the divine mind's brilliant 9 powers known (from mantles, not the psion/wilder list).

It's a bit like a duskblade with a good stealth module bolted on (ninja, basically). Maybe tier 3, but I wouldn't put it beyond the bard, myself. I mean, one decently-optimized ability--Inspire Courage--beats every activated ability of the tier 5 polystalt.

[The Shadowmind]

For certain definitions of viable.

A monk//fighter//Ninja//swashbuckler//knight//soulknife//divine mind//Marshall is significantly superior to any ToB class or duskblade at fighting. Barring things like infinite loops, it’s the games best damage dealer, with very solid unarmored defenses and a lot of free WBL since no need to buy weapons or armor. It has some problem combinations, like levels of intimidate which set up binary situations in which all enemies are fear immune or completely useless.

There would be a couple of questions that would need to be answered first.
1. Is RAW diplomacy a thing? If so, it has high tier game breaking power.
2. Are we using the original JaronK tiers? Is Paladin T5? Healer?

Without Paladin or Healer it’s top T3. High levels of Wblmancy, amazing skillmonkey, incredible combatant, some movement tricks (like DDoor and etherealness) and a few psionic and incarna tricks for good measure.
With Paladin and Healer I’d play it preferentially over a T1 at most optimization levels. It now has high level slots to leverage, action economy tricks from battle Blessing, and a pet caster. It can’t check all the T1 boxes like an all T4 gestalt, but it’s crazy strong at being an adventurer
I was using the why each class is in tier list. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)

[Gnaeus]

The marshal is considered tier 4, though. An all-tier 5 polystalt has fighter, monk, CA ninja, swashbuckler, soulknife, expert, OA samurai, knight, and CW samurai (assuming healer and paladin move up to t4 or beyond, and the Rokugan ninja is left out). And, arguably, that fighter can't be a Zhentarim dungeoncrasher, because that's rated separately at tier 4.

Chassis: draconic. d12 hit die, full base attack, three good saves, six skill points per level.
Class features: about 30 bonus feats (most are from narrow fighter-esque lists, though), precision damage, a lot of class skills, some semi-useful weapons, and a lot of overlap. For example, you get daisho proficiency (masterwork items), daisho proficiency (Ancestral Relic-style), mind blade, and monk unarmed damage. Of those, you'll only really want to use one--probably two-handing the Ancestral Relic katana, or flurrying the unarmed strikes. You probably won't use the swashbuckler or knight class features, because you get that wisdom to AC (twice) and a free two-hander. You probably won't be using the samurai intimidate abilities alongside the knight's challenge abilities. And so on, and so on.

Casting-wise, you're stuck with the divine mind's brilliant 9 powers known (from mantles, not the psion/wilder list).

It's a bit like a duskblade with a good stealth module bolted on (ninja, basically). Maybe tier 3, but I wouldn't put it beyond the bard, myself. I mean, one decently-optimized ability--Inspire Courage--beats every activated ability of the tier 5 polystalt.

Re marshal: so it is. My bad. I think of marshal as a T5. But I wasn’t including dragon shaman, and you also forgot soulborn, both clear T5s that actually contribute here.

That means:
3 good saves, + grace, + ki, + Cha to saves.
Auras: mantle gives +1 attack/defense +1 cold damage at level 1. Draconic aura is a further +1 damage (or DR, or fast heal) Both of which scale.
Given the auras, the precision damage, and the MAD, I would not use the katana). You get free weapon finesse and Int to damage. You should probably flurry at low levels, and soulblade at higher ones (using your WBL savings from weapons and armor to boost stats). Expert gives us Iajutsu focus and UMD on a Cha base. Swashbuckler actually helps quite a bit, not only letting us dump str, but adding to AC (dodge) and reflex saves, and damage. Incarna is tough to specify, but soulborn gives a solid range of melee pluses like force damage or anti undead damage or stuns on charges, and 4 more feats which are not on the Fighter list.

Casting wise, we get the limited junk from divine mind, we get soulbinds. We have Swift invisibility and eventually etherealness. D Door. Breath weapon. Heals. Energy resist. We can target ability scores (soulknife). Big pile of immunities from various places.

[Bucky]

I think Knight hurts the T5 omnigestalt more than it helps, especially if you include Savant with its few sneak attack dice. Catching opponents flat-footed is too important to need to spend challenge attempts on.

[Gnaeus]

I think Knight hurts the T5 omnigestalt more than it helps, especially if you include Savant with its few sneak attack dice. Catching opponents flat-footed is too important to need to spend challenge attempts on.

Agreed. I’d rather dump it. Fortunately we have lots of Cha synergy so we should have a good number of uses per day. And it does give some handy stuff. Like we can use the bonus feat at 5 for quick draw for Iajutsu Focus abuse, or bulwark of defense/vigilant defender combine well with combat reflexes (monk bonus). It should make a good AOO build.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Re marshal: so it is. My bad. I think of marshal as a T5. But I wasn’t including dragon shaman, and you also forgot soulborn, both clear T5s that actually contribute here.

That means:
3 good saves, + grace, + ki, + Cha to saves.
Auras: mantle gives +1 attack/defense +1 cold damage at level 1. Draconic aura is a further +1 damage (or DR, or fast heal) Both of which scale.
Given the auras, the precision damage, and the MAD, I would not use the katana). You get free weapon finesse and Int to damage. You should probably flurry at low levels, and soulblade at higher ones (using your WBL savings from weapons and armor to boost stats). Expert gives us Iajutsu focus and UMD on a Cha base. Swashbuckler actually helps quite a bit, not only letting us dump str, but adding to AC (dodge) and reflex saves, and damage. Incarna is tough to specify, but soulborn gives a solid range of melee pluses like force damage or anti undead damage or stuns on charges, and 4 more feats which are not on the Fighter list.

Casting wise, we get the limited junk from divine mind, we get soulbinds. We have Swift invisibility and eventually etherealness. D Door. Breath weapon. Heals. Energy resist. We can target ability scores (soulknife). Big pile of immunities from various places.
Ah yes, I just picked that list off of JaronK's thread, which does not have all classes. Soulborn helps a lot (comparatively), as soulmelds don't take additional actions and don't require specific fighting styles (as much), but you're really short on essentia. Dragon shaman... does its bit, I suppose. Still, the combination is not really a top t3 class; it's all over the place and lacks raw power. It's probably a t3 skillmonkey, with the free Skill Focus + (nearly) all class skills + auras + soulmelds.

1) It's seriously MAD: Cha to saves, Int to damage, Wis to AC (twice), Con for meldshaping, Str for melee power, Dex for init/AC/finesse. Most of your bonuses are just going to be +1s and +2s here and there, including auras, grace/divine grace/dodge bonus/AC bonus/natural armor, soulmelds, and so on.

2) Mind blades aren't that strong, because they don't work with flurry and have low base damage. It's better to go for enhanced unarmed strikes (2d10 base damage + greater mighty whallop, if you can swing it, allows you to go full Dex and dump Str, because you use size increases instead of PA/Str), or the katana (self-imbued at half price, so a pretty good deal, would be better with Str-focus and PA).

3) Although the class can do a lot of different things, it isn't that strong per action. For example, the breath weapon doesn't do more damage than a typical reserve feat, and is probably worse than a full attack under most circumstances. Psychic Strike can deal ability damage, but it kind of prevents moving/full attacking, due to the charge time. You can manifest powers, but lower-levelled ones, at ML = HD -4, so those aren't going to be very strong either. Staredown/Challenge: same problem. It's a different ability, but it's just not that good a use of a standard action.

By way of comparison, look at a cool tier 3 build, one of my favourites, bard 4 or 8/crusader X (or the reverse, crusader 4/bard X). You're optimizing Inspire Courage, which starts out at a humble +1, gets up to +2 at level 3 or 6, then +3 at level 8, and +6 at level 9--that's without using any WBL on inspiration-boosting equipment, but with Words of Creation and Song of the White Raven (Song of the Heart is either a bonus feat at bard 6, or a regular feat at level 3). At this point, you're throwing around 6d6 DFI + 6 IC for the entire party in round 1, which is massively stronger than all of the t5 polystalt's auras and little bonuses put together, and you beat face (and/or cast spells) in subsequent rounds. That's a top-tier t3 ability.

4) The whole knight + ambush situation is stupid as hell. Seriously, WotC-written codes of conduct are the worst. Alignment restrictions, too: this polystalt would require you to be Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, and has two codes of conduct (knight and samurai). I say we pretend all that doesn't exist when rating the combination.

[Bucky]

re: 2 and 3

One version of your routine would be to pull out a charged mindblade at the start of the encounter, discharge Psychic Strike and switch to unarmed strikes.

[Lans]

1) It's seriously MAD: Cha to saves, Int to damage, Wis to AC (twice), Con for meldshaping, Str for melee power, Dex for init/AC/finesse. Most of your bonuses are just going to be +1s and +2s here and there, including auras, grace/divine grace/dodge bonus/AC bonus/natural armor, soulmelds, and so on.
Its not really MAD because its not actually dependent on any stat. Those stats are nice, but even wizards and clerics want constitution, and dexterity.


The marshal is considered tier 4, though.

As one of the the people who argued the marshal into tier 4, that is a really questionable ranking.


Does anybody remember that thread where we voted on each class's tier? It might be a better place to check.


Given that they lack skills that let them carry out a role, that they lack the most generically useful skills, and that their best skills are all based off dump stats (wis and Cha), I don’t feel bad about saying that. Monk gets (justifiably) panned as a skillmonkey but is way better than Barbarian. Barbarian isn’t in T4 because it brings utility to the table, it’s in T4 because it’s tough and hits things hard.

I have a lot of memories of barbarians using survival to feed people, listen to dectect ambushes, and raging to jump over crevesse/rooftops so this maybe a bias on my part

[Gnaeus]

Ah yes, I just picked that list off of JaronK's thread, which does not have all classes. Soulborn helps a lot (comparatively), as soulmelds don't take additional actions and don't require specific fighting styles (as much), but you're really short on essentia. Dragon shaman... does its bit, I suppose. Still, the combination is not really a top t3 class; it's all over the place and lacks raw power. It's probably a t3 skillmonkey, with the free Skill Focus + (nearly) all class skills + auras + soulmelds.

1) It's seriously MAD: Cha to saves, Int to damage, Wis to AC (twice), Con for meldshaping, Str for melee power, Dex for init/AC/finesse. Most of your bonuses are just going to be +1s and +2s here and there, including auras, grace/divine grace/dodge bonus/AC bonus/natural armor, soulmelds, and so on.

2) Mind blades aren't that strong, because they don't work with flurry and have low base damage. It's better to go for enhanced unarmed strikes (2d10 base damage + greater mighty whallop, if you can swing it, allows you to go full Dex and dump Str, because you use size increases instead of PA/Str), or the katana (self-imbued at half price, so a pretty good deal, would be better with Str-focus and PA).

3) Although the class can do a lot of different things, it isn't that strong per action. For example, the breath weapon doesn't do more damage than a typical reserve feat, and is probably worse than a full attack under most circumstances. Psychic Strike can deal ability damage, but it kind of prevents moving/full attacking, due to the charge time. You can manifest powers, but lower-levelled ones, at ML = HD -4, so those aren't going to be very strong either. Staredown/Challenge: same problem. It's a different ability, but it's just not that good a use of a standard action.

By way of comparison, look at a cool tier 3 build, one of my favourites, bard 4 or 8/crusader X (or the reverse, crusader 4/bard X). You're optimizing Inspire Courage, which starts out at a humble +1, gets up to +2 at level 3 or 6, then +3 at level 8, and +6 at level 9--that's without using any WBL on inspiration-boosting equipment, but with Words of Creation and Song of the White Raven (Song of the Heart is either a bonus feat at bard 6, or a regular feat at level 3). At this point, you're throwing around 6d6 DFI + 6 IC for the entire party in round 1, which is massively stronger than all of the t5 polystalt's auras and little bonuses put together, and you beat face (and/or cast spells) in subsequent rounds. That's a top-tier t3 ability.

4) The whole knight + ambush situation is stupid as hell. Seriously, WotC-written codes of conduct are the worst. Alignment restrictions, too: this polystalt would require you to be Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, and has two codes of conduct (knight and samurai). I say we pretend all that doesn't exist when rating the combination.

Apologies. At work so I can’t cut and paste well, so I’ll respond by points.

1. The mad is why you don’t want to use the katana. It has 5 stats it somewhat wants, but it doesn’t need any of them to be super high. Probably Dex/Cha primary, Wis/Con/Int secondary. On the other hand, again, it doesn’t need to buy weapons or armor (freeing WBL for stat buffs).

2. The thing is, most damage isn’t going to come from weapon dice. Let’s say we level 11. Soulknife does 1d6+2. Avg 5.5. Base Unarmed strike 1d10. Avg 5.5. Lets take a draconic aura +3 damage, attack/energy aura from divine mind +6 more damage, so +9 from auras. +2 weapon specialization and we at +11. +6d6 sudden strike (avg 21). +int mod. + Iajutsu focus. Maybe a couple sneak attack dice from savant. So really, I don’t care about my base damage dice, I want to hit on a 2. Soulknife is free +2 enhancement, and free greater weapon focus. That’s gonna help me ITWF. Also, at that level, Soulblade is Wounding, so +1 con damage/hit. Also, the Soulblade is 19-20 threat, with improved critical to 17-20, and swashbuckler will soon be adding str damage on crits. And there are some things you don’t want to touch with a Fist or a weapon. But we can switch back and forth as benefits us. Or TWF Unarmed/blade (like debuff con then go for the stunning Fist.)

3. Oh, the breath weapon is sad. It’s not a useful attack, it checks a very specific box. Swarms. A common issue for melee fighters and bards alike. Aoe energy damage is nice to have in its back pocket.

Your DFI doesn’t impress me. 6d6 is 21 fire damage. The most commonly resisted type. It removes the to hit bonus, which is likely more important. My standard attack auras will be +3 to hit, +9 damage at 11, but the energy types will be of my choosing, so acid/electric likely. Or I can shift to defensive bonuses and fast healing, or initiative bonuses for the wizard, or energy resist........And you spent 2 of your 5 feats to get there (assuming you human and have a bonus feat). And either a draconic race or another feat. And you’ve gimped your casting to do it.

Assume a 16 dex at level 11. My ITWF full attack is +19/14/9/19/14, before any outside buffs. Each hit is con damage, energy damage, likely sudden strike and/or sneak. Your “beating face” is what, +14/+9? I’ve got like 17 bonus feats, and IL5, so I’ll likely take martial study and stance for a couple of level 3 strikes that synergize with a giant pile of sneak dice. I like the idea of making it an AOO build with Robilars Gambit and Sidestep, but there are also factors that would lend themselves to charging instead (swashbuckler and knight and soulborn). I can probably squeeze out some imperious command lockdown in there too, I have a TON of feats. I’ve only sketched out an outline, and I’m way more familiar with Akashic than Incarnum, and in any event if I fleshed it out I would have to make decisions so what I came out with would be more a build than a full class evaluation (of course, crusader 4/Bard with DFI and all the relevant feats is also a build, not a good assessment of “Bard” it’s like if I dipped Barbarian for pounce), but I think my per round contributions will be brutal. Significantly higher than an initiator.

4. Agreed

[ExLibrisMortis]

Your DFI doesn’t impress me. 6d6 is 21 fire damage. The most commonly resisted type. It removes the to hit bonus, which is likely more important.
You know DFI stacks with Inspire Courage, right? It's 6d6+6 and +6 to hit. DFI allows different damage types, too, if you want--sonic damage, for example.


And either a draconic race or another feat. And you’ve gimped your casting to do it.
Draconic races can be quite good. Silverbrow human is one of the strongest ECL 1 races in the game. Losing casting isn't much of an issue when you're really an initiator. The little bit of casting you get is mostly an artefact of picking up bardic music.


Assume a 16 dex at level 11. My ITWF full attack is +19/14/9/19/14, before any outside buffs. Each hit is con damage, energy damage, likely sudden strike and/or sneak. Your “beating face” is what, +14/+9? I’ve got like 17 bonus feats, and IL5, so I’ll likely take martial study and stance for a couple of level 3 strikes that synergize with a giant pile of sneak dice. I like the idea of making it an AOO build with Robilars Gambit and Sidestep, but there are also factors that would lend themselves to charging instead (swashbuckler and knight and soulborn). I can probably squeeze out some imperious command lockdown in there too, I have a TON of feats. I’ve only sketched out an outline, and I’m way more familiar with Akashic than Incarnum, and in any event if I fleshed it out I would have to make decisions so what I came out with would be more a build than a full class evaluation (of course, crusader 4/Bard with DFI and all the relevant feats is also a build, not a good assessment of “Bard” it’s like if I dipped Barbarian for pounce), but I think my per round contributions will be brutal. Significantly higher than an initiator.
A bard 4/crusader 7 has a base attack bonus of +10, so they don't quite get the third iterative. If you don't mind, I'm moving the comparison to ECL 12 (which gets the t5 polystalt mind blade +3, 2d6 unarmed strike damage, essentia capacity 3, maybe some other stuff too, probably won't change the picture too much).

Without getting to deep into the calculation, the t5 polystalt would do about 5*40=200 damage if all attacks hit (mind blade or unarmed strike, about the same), or about half that if the target is immune to precision damage. Hustle lets you move + full attack, which is good. Requires you to take the Freedom mantle, but that's not so bad (gets you teleport, if you want it). Of course, that's not fully optimized. Soulmelds add some power, and I wouldn't be surprised if some combination of two-handing and TWF works out even better, and we haven't included that WBL advantage that you keep reminding me of :smalltongue:.

Let's peg the bard 4/crusader 8 at 18 strength before buffs, using a +1 wounding greatsword, Furious Counterstrike at +2. This bardsader attacks at +23/+18/+13 for 2d6+6d6+6+6+2 damage per hit, or 8d6+24, an average of 42 damage per hit. Should not have to worry about immunities, because sonic immunity is rare. A good stance can add +5 or +10 damage (for flanking or charging, respectively--that's for the entire party, mind). That's also not fully optimized for damage. Bard 4/crusader 7/barbarian 1 has the same basic setup but with Whirling Frenzy in the mix, for a pounce of +23/+23/+18/+13 (8d6+37), which is about 230 damage per charge.

Neither setup is fully optimized or even fully built, but I guess to about the same degree. On this comparison, I think you're right that the t5 polystalt is stronger for pure damage, and probably has better utility in there, as well (I'd rate the crusader higher in combat, due to stuff like White Raven Tactics and a much bigger damage boost to the party (+6 attack/6d6+6 damage is huge), but the polystalt is much better out of combat).

Now I'm kind of curious what a full build looks like, because it's really hard to keep all the little class features in mind. I mean, I missed the ability to move + full attack earlier (hustle from Divine Mind), because I'd already pegged the manifesting as out-of-combat utility. And all those little numbers do add up. But I'm not making that build, far too much effort! I'll take the bardsader :smalltongue:.

[Lans]

You know DFI stacks with Inspire Courage, right? It's 6d6+6 and +6 to hit. DFI allows different damage types, too, if you want--sonic damage, for example.. Doesn't that take 2 standard actions though? That seems like a pretty steep cost.





Neither setup is fully optimized or even fully built, but I guess to about the same degree. On this comparison, I think you're right that the t5 polystalt is stronger for pure damage, and probably has better utility in there, as well (I'd rate the crusader higher in combat, due to stuff like White Raven Tactics and a much bigger damage boost to the party (+6 attack/6d6+6 damage is huge), but the polystalt is much better out of combat).


I contend the polystalt's ability to provide the party with+10 to initiative for 1 swift action every other round is better than the bardsader's attack/damage boost for 2 standard actions.

3 from dragon shaman, 1 from soulborn from lucky dice, 6 from divine mind's time and perception auras.

[darkdragoon]

[QUOTE=Lans;22660284]Doesn't that take 2 standard actions though? That seems like a pretty steep cost.

Swift action with Song of the White Raven.

[Lans]

[QUOTE=Lans;22660284]Doesn't that take 2 standard actions though? That seems like a pretty steep cost.

Swift action with Song of the White Raven.

Oh, thats actually kinda cool, and explains all the bard/crusaders that I've seen builds for.

So, 1 standard and 1 swift or 1 swift round 1 and 1 swift round 2?

[Gnaeus]

So, Bard4/crusader 8? And you are relying on DFI and inspire courage? You have 4 music uses/day, and you are using 2 per battle. So presumably more feats lost on bardic music. You lose a standard and a swift the first round of every fight.

If you are a silver brow human, your energy type is cold, hardly better than fire. You can’t pick, it’s the type of your dragon.

Wait, now you are a Barbarian also. That means at CL 12 you are initiator level 9. You know exactly 1 level 5 maneuver. I have 2 level 3s from martial study. You aren’t even a vastly better initiator than I am.

I can now DDoor. I can breathe water. My movement is 70. I can be superior invisible 8+ rounds a day. I can become ethereal. If human, about 9 skill points per level from an open list (you average about 4.6). I have trapfinding.

Combat is more than hitting things. Your saves are about fort 10, will 8, reflex 5 (assuming the Barbarian dip). Mine are fort 13, will 15, reflex 16. I have improved evasion. I’m immune to fear, acid, paralysis, disease, poison and sleep. I have a 21 touch AC before gear bonuses. I can kill swarms. I can make my weapons force to beat down incorporeal. I have improved initiative, am dex focused, and have auras and binds that bump initiative further. I’m functionally immune to disarm, sunder, or anything else that traps, destroys or makes me drop my weapon. I agree with the approximately 200 damage per round number you ballparked, but that ignores the 5 con damage I did. Your damage is also much below mine on round 1, because you haven’t had 2 swifts yet. If you use your maneuvers for counters to compare with my survivability, they interfere with your buffing.

[Gnaeus]

Tier 5 omni Gestalt (Assumes CA Ninja, Monk, Knight, Fighter, CW &OA Samurai, Soulborn, Dragon Disciple, Soulknife, Expert, Swashbuckler. Follows Farlanghn. Mantles are Freedom, Time, Communication

32 PB.
Str 10
Dex 16 +2=18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14 +2=16
Cha 15 +2=17
HP 119.5
Fort +8 base +2 con +3 cha=+13
Reflex +8 base +4 dex +3 cha +2 grace=+17
Will +8 base +3 wis +3 cha +2 ki=+16
Initiative +10=+4 Improved initiative, +2 Time granted power, +4 dex + possible auras
Ki 9/day
Mindblade 26/21/16(+12 BAB, +3 attack aura, +3 weapon, +2 weapon focus, +4 Dex)
Mindblade TWF (23/18/13/23/18)
Mindblade/Unarmed Strike TWF (24/19/14//17/12
Unarmed Strike 19/14/9 (+12 BAB, +3 attack aura, +4 dex) (2d6+6 (auras)+2int=15 avg+stunning fist)
Glaive +15/10/5 (+12 BAB, +3 attack aura) (basically just to pull out for battlefield control)
Damage: 1d6 +2 or 3(enhance)+6d6 sudden strike +2d6 sneak attack +3 DS aura +3 attack aura +2 Weapon specialization +2 int =9d6+12 avg 43/hit +1 con damage (17-20 x2) * + poison use, iajutsu focus, smites
Stunning Fist DC 18, 12/day
AC 30 (Touch 28, Flat Footed 20 with uncanny dodge) +4 dex, +3 wis, +3 Deflection (Crystal Helm), +3 Dodge (Midnight Dodge), +2 NA (DS), +2 AC bonus (ninja or monk), +2 Dodge (Swashbuckler), +1 Dodge (Feat)

Base Move 90 (+40 enhancement monk, +10 insight speed of thought, +10 typeless Freedom mantle)
Offense: Insightful Strike (Int>Damage), Improved Flanking (+4 in flank), Acrobatic charge, Smite Chaotic/Evil 3/day (+3 to hit, +10 damage), Acid Breath (6d6 30 cone DC 18), Bladewind (whirlwind attack for Soulknife), Sudden Strike 6d6, Poison use, improved, Kiai Smite 3/day (+3/+3), Staredown (+4 intimidate), Mass Staredown,
Defense: Grace +2 reflex, Dodge +2 AC (Swashbuckler), Fear Immunity (Soulborn), Immune to Paralysis, Sleep (DS), +2 NA DS, Immune to Acid (DS), Still mind (+2 vs enchantment), Purity of body (Immune to disease and poison), Improved Evasion (Monk),
General: Lucky (reroll 1/day), Water Breathing (DS), Touch of Vitality 60 hp/day, Trapfinding, Acrobatics (+4 climb, Jump, Tumble), Speed Climb, Wholeness of Body 24 hp/day, Abundant Step (D Door 1/day), Fast Move +40, Slow Fall 60, Bulwark of Defense (All threatened squares are difficult terrain, Tumble check DCs are +12)
Feats: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler 1), Azure Touch (add invested Essence to Wholeness of body, Soulborn 3), Midnight Dodge (3 essentia invested)(Add Essentia to dodge bonuses to AC, Soulborn 7), Cobalt Critical ( 1 essence invested Add essentia to confirmation rolls and crit damage, Soulborn 11), Skill Focus Hide (DS), Skill Focus Move Silently (DS), Weapon Focus and GWF Mindblade (Soulknife), Speed of Thought (+10 speed insight bonus, Soulknife), Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, improved unarmed strike, Improved Trip (Monk), Improved Initiative (Samurai), Dodge (OASam), Blind Fighting (OA Sam), Mobility (OA Sam), Spring Attack (OA Sam), Mounted Combat (Knight), Quick Draw (Knight), Diehard (Knight)
Fighter 1. TWF, 2. Karmic Strike, 4. Weapon Specialization Mindblade, 6. Improved TWF, 8. Improved Critical Mindblade, 10. Double Hit 12. Robilars Gambit
Base Feats: Human Darkstalker, 1. Improved Toughness 3. Martial Study (Shadow Blade Technique) 6. Imperious Command 9 Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) 12 Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
Soulknife is +3 or +2/+2, Wounding,
3 soulmelds, 1 bind, 7 essentia (+3 from feats)
Binds: Crystal Helm (Crown)(3 essentia invested) (Melee attacks are force, Essentia to deflection),
Melds Impulse Boots (Uncanny Dodge), Strongheart Vest (all ability damage -1)
Powers: Dimension hop, Psionic Charm, Hustle, Psionic Tongues, Time Hop,
Skills:
Iajutsu Focus 15 ranks +3 cha =+18
Hide 15 ranks +3 focus +4 dex =+22
Move Silently 15 ranks +3 focus +4 dex=+22
Search 15 ranks +2 int =+17
Spot 15 ranks +3 wis =+18
Listen 15 ranks +3 wis =+18
Intimidate 15 ranks +3 cha +4 samurai =+22
Disable Device 15 ranks +4 dex =+19
UMD 15 ranks +3 cha =+18
Gear:Gloves of Dex +2
Periapt of Wisdom +2
Cloak of Charisma +2
Next priorities: Some weapon crystals, up the stat buffs, flight item, utility wands, a couple of weapons with wand chambers so he can quickdraw wands (76kgp WBL remaining).

Soooo:
Typical combat: I have surprise (22 hide and move silently and Darkstalker). Open it up by throwing my mindblade at target for a pile of damage.
Round 1: I win initiative. Hustle up to the flat footed target and attack 5 times with sneak and sudden strike
Round 1 bottom: they can attack me. I attack them 4 times every time they hit me. Probably 3 con damaging soulknives and a stunning fist.
Round 2. Cloak of Deception: 5 more attacks while invisible
Round 3+, use ki.
Common scenarios:
Scouting: Very good stealth and perception. High movement rate for retreating. Good defenses if ambushed.
Invisible/hidden attackers: Uncanny Dodge, Blind Fighting, high spot/listen
Incorporeals: My weapons are force and my touch AC is crazy. I lose some precision damage, but am still better off than most initiators
Undead in general: Immunity to fear and paralysis, resistant to ability damage. If I have time to prepare there is a sexy soulbind for fighting undead.

Things I don’t want to engage: Spring attack and retreat up to 90 feet
Traps: Trapfinding. Improved Evasion. Great saves. Immunities. Short range teleports.
Swarms: Breath Weapon
Piles of mooks: Whirlwind attack. Breath Weapon. Mass Staredown/Imperious Command. Pull out the Glaive and start tripping if they low Str.
If hit: High HP. Good saves. Diehard. 60 point standard action heal. Multiple running away options.
Social encounters: Decent. Intimidate very high. Psionic Tongues. Psionic Charm. Decent cha. Social Auras to buff the face. Never have to decide whether to wear my plate mail and carry my greataxe for my social call on the queen mother.
Grappled or blocked from targets: Dimension hop

Real build choices: The skills were hard. Even at 9, I wanted Bluff (I will eventually get skill focus), Diplomacy (Handy with tongues), Tumble/jump/climb (Class bonuses), Some of that stuff would vary based on party composition
Fighter Tree: I went with the Jack B Quick because of TWF and combat reflex synergy. But with a higher strength he would be amazing at trip/lockdown. It wouldn’t be hard to make into a charger either. I really wanted sidestep but couldn’t fit it in yet. I think armor is a bad choice for him, but “bad” is relative and he could easily hit an AC well out of reach of a normal S&B muggle, while retaining higher mobility. It wouldn’t be a bad archer either, with all that precision damage, and a real surprise for enemies who closed to melee. It might actually be fun to play with a suboptimal combat style, just to have an opportunity to make that S&B/thrown combo not suck hard.
Leveling notes: This level was picked for convenience to the Bard/Crusader. At 10-11, my advantages are more pronounced. 13 isn’t fantastic, but 14 and 15 give big bumps
13: Samurai Bonus feat, +1d6 SS, Diamond Soul, take 10 on jump/tumble, knife to the soul, +19 UMD for wand autosucceed


Does not include Paladin, Healer or Savant. Any of those would be a big +. Currently at 34 feats. 32 PB. Starting stats 10/14/14/14/14/14

[Gnaeus]

So, I pretty much stand by it standing at the top of T3. I’m absolutely convinced of its combat superiority over the described dragonfire Bard, both in terms of its personal combat abilities and it’s overall team contributions (because among other things the wizard 12 cares more about a huge initiative boost than a big weapon damage buff).

I’m personally convinced that Beguiler and DN are low T2, but assuming that they are top T3, I think it’s comparable. Re Beguiler, they are comparable skillmonkeys (Beguiler gets more skill points, gestalt gets higher totals because of boosts) but if we set off a trap by accident or scout into a nest of Medusas only one of us will survive. Beguiler is much better at minionmancy , and battlefield control (although a different build could be very good at that), but worse at healing, worse defenses, worse at damage, similar buffers and travel abilities.

[ottdmk]

Soulborn helps a lot (comparatively), as soulmelds don't take additional actions and don't require specific fighting styles (as much), but you're really short on essentia. That's a pretty common misconception about Soulborns. Yeah, they have the smallest Essentia pool in the game, but given what they have to put Essentia into they generally have enough. Heck, an Azurin or Duskling Soulborn with the Extra Essentia feat (CL6) doesn't need to swap Essentia around much until CL12. Even if you don't go that route, a base Soulborn at CL10 would have 5 points of Essentia, and two Soulmelds to put them in, leaving a point leftover to put into one of your two Essentia Feats if you want. (Personally, once a Soulborn starts swapping Essentia around on a regular basis I'd hold off investing Essentia Feats until absolutely necessary.)

[Dr_Dinosaur]

How would people tier Fighter/Samurai/Marshal, actually? A somewhat Charisma-focused martial with a bunch of bonus feats, decent skills, ACFs, and fear synergies sounds like high T4 or low T3 to me.

[Nifft]

How would people tier Fighter/Samurai/Marshal, actually? A somewhat Charisma-focused martial with a bunch of bonus feats, decent skills, ACFs, and fear synergies sounds like high T4 or low T3 to me.

Zhentcrasher Samurai with Motivate Charisma could get some significant CC via Intimidate.

Not sure if that's enough flexibility to hit T3 but it seems like a decent-sized area of competence sufficient to meet T4.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's a pretty common misconception about Soulborns. Yeah, they have the smallest Essentia pool in the game, but given what they have to put Essentia into they generally have enough. Heck, an Azurin or Duskling Soulborn with the Extra Essentia feat (CL6) doesn't need to swap Essentia around much until CL12. Even if you don't go that route, a base Soulborn at CL10 would have 5 points of Essentia, and two Soulmelds to put them in, leaving a point leftover to put into one of your two Essentia Feats if you want. (Personally, once a Soulborn starts swapping Essentia around on a regular basis I'd hold off investing Essentia Feats until absolutely necessary.)
Ah yes, good point. No capacity increase either, unlike incarnate and totemist. I was thinking 3-5 essentia per meld (with Improved Essentia Capacity or incarnum focus) and 3+ melds at ECL 10, but there's even less incarnum in the soulborn than I thought...


How would people tier Fighter/Samurai/Marshal, actually? A somewhat Charisma-focused martial with a bunch of bonus feats, decent skills, ACFs, and fear synergies sounds like high T4 or low T3 to me.
Which samurai?

Actually, both would be a nice t4, samurai doing the least, fighter and marshal providing nice abilities, especially with full ACF access (which takes fighter into t4, don't forget). I'd say it's still shy of t3, because it's not better than a paladin or ranger, but it'd be a good fighter fix.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I’d forgotten there were two Samurai tbh. Now I’m wondering if combining all the “duplicate” or similarly-named classes into single definitive classes would improve them at all. Samurai+, Ninja+...maybe even include the prestige class/base class pairs like (Hellfire) Warlock and Mountebank/Mountebank by giving them the PrC’s abilities starting at the level they’d qualify.

Samurai+ wouldn’t be as good as Samurai/Marshal/Fighter, but free weapons and more bonus feats certainly don’t *hurt.*

[Gnaeus]

That's a pretty common misconception about Soulborns. Yeah, they have the smallest Essentia pool in the game, but given what they have to put Essentia into they generally have enough. Heck, an Azurin or Duskling Soulborn with the Extra Essentia feat (CL6) doesn't need to swap Essentia around much until CL12. Even if you don't go that route, a base Soulborn at CL10 would have 5 points of Essentia, and two Soulmelds to put them in, leaving a point leftover to put into one of your two Essentia Feats if you want. (Personally, once a Soulborn starts swapping Essentia around on a regular basis I'd hold off investing Essentia Feats until absolutely necessary.)

Admittedly, I was working blind without a good list in front of me, but every feat I wanted also came with a free essentia. That guy had 7 with just his bonus feats.

[Gnaeus]

Ah yes, good point. No capacity increase either, unlike incarnate and totemist. I was thinking 3-5 essentia per meld (with Improved Essentia Capacity or incarnum focus) and 3+ melds at ECL 10, but there's even less incarnum in the soulborn than I thought...


Which samurai?

Actually, both would be a nice t4, samurai doing the least, fighter and marshal providing nice abilities, especially with full ACF access (which takes fighter into t4, don't forget). I'd say it's still shy of t3, because it's not better than a paladin or ranger, but it'd be a good fighter fix.

I’m not sure it’s worse than Paladin or Ranger. I would in fact say better in combat. But it’s still going to be drawing all its utility from Marshall. I’d say easy T4. Not sure if it has a duskblade’s combat versatility or utility. So likely not T3, or on the edge.

CW Samurai would have amazing lockdown while being better able to fight. Fighter could use its sub par feats for trees. Marshal makes intimimancer easy.
OA Samurai would power vault you into a feat tree of your choice. Like fighter but moreso. If you know how to build jack b quick or a charger or tripper, you will accomplish your goal sooner. But you are still likely a one trick melee muggle with marshal tacked on.

Either way, you still will likely have trouble with traditional fighter troubles. How do you solve common melee problems? Invisibility, flight, incorporeality, DR, move and full attack, things you are afraid to hit with a valuable katana? The tier 3 melee can innately solve some or all of those problems.

Both Samurai together seems like low T4. Cheap gear and sufficient bonus feats should help you be adequate in combat. Might still be top of 5 though. I think I could make one better than a Barbarian. But I’m sure I could make one much worse.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I’m not sure it’s worse than Paladin or Ranger. I would in fact say better in combat.
Don't forget paladins get stuff like Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, and devotion feats natively. Turn Undead and spells fuel some really strong synergies. High-level paladins can cast their own haste, get spells like rhino's rush, and even get Inspire Courage (with From Smite to Song or Harmonious Knight substitution levels). Rangers get the same haste, as well as hunter's eye and lion's charge, aka native Pounce (at a highish level, but still), Swift Hunter and Nemesis Favoured Enemy synergy, and an animal companion (dire polar bear, go!).

A large part of the problem with low-tier post-PHB classes is the lack of abilities that hook into existing splat support. Paladins and rangers showcase that two really ace feats can be better than the entire samurai bonus feat list.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I’m not sure it’s worse than Paladin or Ranger. I would in fact say better in combat. But it’s still going to be drawing all its utility from Marshall. I’d say easy T4. Not sure if it has a duskblade’s combat versatility or utility. So likely not T3, or on the edge.

CW Samurai would have amazing lockdown while being better able to fight. Fighter could use its sub par feats for trees. Marshal makes intimimancer easy.
OA Samurai would power vault you into a feat tree of your choice. Like fighter but moreso. If you know how to build jack b quick or a charger or tripper, you will accomplish your goal sooner. But you are still likely a one trick melee muggle with marshal tacked on.

Either way, you still will likely have trouble with traditional fighter troubles. How do you solve common melee problems? Invisibility, flight, incorporeality, DR, move and full attack, things you are afraid to hit with a valuable katana? The tier 3 melee can innately solve some or all of those problems.

Both Samurai together seems like low T4. Cheap gear and sufficient bonus feats should help you be adequate in combat. Might still be top of 5 though. I think I could make one better than a Barbarian. But I’m sure I could make one much worse.


Don't forget paladins get stuff like Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, and devotion feats natively. Turn Undead and spells fuel some really strong synergies. High-level paladins can cast their own haste, get spells like rhino's rush, and even get Inspire Courage (with From Smite to Song or Harmonious Knight substitution levels). Rangers get the same haste, as well as hunter's eye and lion's charge, aka native Pounce (at a highish level, but still), Swift Hunter and Nemesis Favoured Enemy synergy, and an animal companion (dire polar bear, go!).

A large part of the problem with low-tier post-PHB classes is the lack of abilities that hook into existing splat support. Paladins and rangers showcase that two really ace feats can be better than the entire samurai bonus feat list.
Good points. So Samurai+ is High5/Low4 and the Fighter/Samurai/Marshal is high4 even with both Samurais involved due to only having the Marshal for utility. Makes sense.

As long as we're on the subject of weird post-PHB tristalt classes, what about Mountebank (Dragon Compendium)/Hexblade/Warlock? Get some of that infernal patron flavor simmering, along with a nod to 4e's Warlock.

[Gnaeus]

Don't forget paladins get stuff like Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order, and devotion feats natively. Turn Undead and spells fuel some really strong synergies. High-level paladins can cast their own haste, get spells like rhino's rush, and even get Inspire Courage (with From Smite to Song or Harmonious Knight substitution levels). Rangers get the same haste, as well as hunter's eye and lion's charge, aka native Pounce (at a highish level, but still), Swift Hunter and Nemesis Favoured Enemy synergy, and an animal companion (dire polar bear, go!).

A large part of the problem with low-tier post-PHB classes is the lack of abilities that hook into existing splat support. Paladins and rangers showcase that two really ace feats can be better than the entire samurai bonus feat list.

But those only get them up to decent T4. Paladin starts at T5, as in not as competent at basic combat as a fighter. Ranger hits T4, but it’s pretty clearly the utility part of T4. Swift hunter does 0 for ranger class evaluation. It requires scout. And if we are dipping for effect I just take a level of Barbarian and your charge/pounce spells I mimic naturally.

Take your Rhinos Rush for example. You get it at level 4, once per day, Twice at level 6, if it’s your only spell. A fig//mar//OA Samurai at level 6 has 10 feats (if nonhuman). So power attack, improved bull rush, leap attack, shock trooper, powerful charge, greater powerful charge, improved initiative, weapon focus, weapon specialization, skill focus diplomacy, adds Cha to damage while charging, +1 damage aura and a half price magic weapon. He’s going to do more damage on a charge than you can with a chargex2 twice per day.

Just to process the math, at level 6, that’s charging at +9(+ enhancement, + str) doing weapon +2d6 +21(+enhancement, +Cha +str x1.5). At will. Also, his base full attacks are better by at least +1/+3 and his weapon will usually be better.

[ExLibrisMortis]

But those only get them up to decent T4. Paladin starts at T5, as in not as competent at basic combat as a fighter. Ranger hits T4, but it’s pretty clearly the utility part of T4.
Paladin is considered t4, actually. Same as a Dungeoncrasher/Zhentarim fighter. A sixth-level paladin built for damage will use their horse; Spirited Charge, lance, and rhino's rush in a wand chamber is good for quadruple damage. If particularly necessary, they can use Shock Trooper, too. Example damage would be around 4d8+74 (average 92) with 18 strength and a +1 weapon. That's enough for anyone, really; if you optimize damage beyond that, you're likely giving up on versatility.

[Lans]

Paladin is considered t4, actually. Same as a Dungeoncrasher/Zhentarim fighter. A sixth-level paladin built for damage will use their horse; Spirited Charge, lance, and rhino's rush in a wand chamber is good for quadruple damage. If particularly necessary, they can use Shock Trooper, too. Example damage would be around 4d8+74 (average 92) with 18 strength and a +1 weapon. That's enough for anyone, really; if you optimize damage beyond that, you're likely giving up on versatility.

Its depends on the list used, I think the giant ass thread we did about a year or 2 back where we voted on classes would be a good place to look.

Does anybody have a link to that thread? I tried to google for it and came up short

, but a fighter can grab the same feats, wild cohort, and try improved trip+knockdown to get 2 attacks off on a charge.

[Gnaeus]

Paladin is considered t4, actually. Same as a Dungeoncrasher/Zhentarim fighter. A sixth-level paladin built for damage will use their horse; Spirited Charge, lance, and rhino's rush in a wand chamber is good for quadruple damage. If particularly necessary, they can use Shock Trooper, too. Example damage would be around 4d8+74 (average 92) with 18 strength and a +1 weapon. That's enough for anyone, really; if you optimize damage beyond that, you're likely giving up on versatility.

Paladin is T4 WITH battle Blessing and SOTAO. And a big chunk of that is utility.

How? You have 3 feats. You can’t even get spirited charge if you have sword of the Arcane Order. It requires mounted combat and ride by attack. You are 9 levels away from shock trooper (power attack at 9, imp bull rush at 12, shock trooper at 15) and that assumes you delayed battle Blessing to 18 and never took SoTAO.

Tier comparison doesn’t include gear. You can’t make that wand and have no guarantee you can find it. On the other hand, I can make my +1 valorous weapon of choice. You can’t even guarantee a +1 lance. Maybe you found a +1 longsword instead.

Oh look. We walked into a dungeon or a forest. Or caves or anywhere else a large creature can’t go or can’t charge. And you are trash if you aren’t on it. You plan to spend a full round action summoning your horse on round 1, fight 1, then try to squeeze it through tunnels the rest of the day? Whose giving up versatility? Not me! You have 2 junk feats and a tactic that only works mounted. (Side note, I could easily drop improved initiative and powerful/grtr powerful charge and buy a horse. And still outdamage you by a large margin. I’d just rather not need to.)

So, at level 6, with my own hands, I can make +1 valorous weapon. I now know we both have 18 strength.
So say I have a Greatsword. So assuming 14 Cha, I have all the numbers. 8d6+ 58. Average 86. With a higher to hit. Better initiative. Better full attack.

Level 7 you get nothing. My average damage jumps to 94 (my power attack and auras went up). I now have motivate charisma, over the top, and the auras that let me add cha to reflex and fortitude. So my saves are now better than yours, and I can boost the party’s saves.

Level 8 you get a chance at a level 2 slot. I get cleave and Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) and 6 more damage per charge.

9 you get junk, but you can finally take power attack (although yours subtracts from your to hit) (or battle Blessing or SoTAO, which you said were important). I’ll take improved Critical.

10 you get a smite and a second level spell. You now have 4 spells per day if you have a 14 wisdom. I get martial stance (assassins stance). I’m still waiting to see where Paladin pulls ahead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How? You have 3 feats. [...] Tier comparison doesn't include gear. [...]
You have no problem imposing limits on the paladin, do you? There's races and flaws, you can get three extra feats. Equipment does factor into tier comparison, because different classes use WBL differently. And no, a level-by-level comparison to a deliberately gimped paladin build doesn't count as evidence, because clearly you don't know how to build a paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). I'm not interested in comparing your minmaxing to an optimized paladin, so we're done here.



As for the mountebank/hexblade/warlock, that's an interesting one, because warlock is controversial. Imbue Item is the mini-artificer ability, and proper use can go a very long way towards solving most any encounter. With hexblade and mountebank in there, you have good charisma synergy, further helping UMD. I'd say the combination is tier 3 easily, because warlock by itself is already pushing it (depending, again, on Deceive/Imbue Item), and hexblade adds nice low-level power (straight hp, bab, proficiencies) as well as higher-level spell power (which are less strained, because warlock provides spammable effects and day-long buffs). The mountebank adds skill points, a save, and a few utility effects, but I don't see Beguile or most of the patron abilities being useful. Deceptive Attack would be nice, but it requires some really specific circumstances that make it hard to full attack (simply catching your target flat-footed does not suffice).

Hexblade suffers a bit from being exactly like a paladin, but not qualifying for things like From Smite to Song or Sword of the Arcane Order.

Mountebank has great synergy with Telflammar Shadowlord, though at a relatively high ECL.

[Gnaeus]

You have no problem imposing limits on the paladin, do you? There's races and flaws, you can get three extra feats. Equipment does factor into tier comparison, because different classes use WBL differently. And no, a level-by-level comparison to a deliberately gimped paladin build doesn't count as evidence, because clearly you don't know how to build a paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin). I'm not interested in comparing your minmaxing to an optimized paladin, so we're done here.


Flaws arent used in many games. If we included gear in tier analysis, everyone with UMD would be a Tier 1-2. Tier 5s are tier 5s BECAUSE they are highly gear dependent on specific geat, and your build is more gear dependent than mine. You are assumed to have basic gear, to be tracking normal game assumptions on magic weapons and the like, but not necessarily specific items for a build. To the point at which one of JaronK's arguments in assigning rogues to T4 not T3 was that they have no way to guarantee that they can find the wand of gravestrike or weapon crystals that allow them to sneak attack specific targets, which is pretty much exactly the same situation.

You can be human, thats an extra feat, but then I get one also, so I'm just one further ahead. Your paladin is gimped because paladins aren't really better than fighters at fighting things, and are in fact worse at most points. They hit 4, with BB and SoTAO, not because they are awesome at kicking ass. They are barely adequate. They hit T4 because they can manage a bare amount of combat utility between swift action spells and full access to the wizard list. And I'm way better than a fighter. Your Paladin optimization showcase, awesomely enough, gets one feat at first level and gets his ass handed to him by the FighMarSam at every single level from 1-10, so thanks so much for proving my point. He does get parity as a party buffer at level 9, with a better attack/damage aura, but lacking the ability to buff his teams saves or skills or other defensive/utility options. Sure. Its a monster at 15. It MIGHT edge me out when words of creation comes on line. (its +23 attack +17 damage will be overwhelmed by my charging and other feats, but if we have other melees in the party the combined buff probably beats me, at level 15.)

[Gnaeus]

But heck. Have it your way. Assume flaws. Assume magic mart. Take your wand. I’ll use my 2 free feats on skill focus UMD and magical aptitude. I have more skill points and motivate charisma. I can have a +19 UMD by level 5. So every wand you get, I match. I catch up on feats by level 2.

[ottdmk]

Ah yes, good point. No capacity increase either, unlike incarnate and totemist. I was thinking 3-5 essentia per meld (with Improved Essentia Capacity or incarnum focus) and 3+ melds at ECL 10, but there's even less incarnum in the soulborn than I thought... Improved Essentia Capacity is useful at lower levels, but the built in limitation is tricky (less so for Soulborns then for Incarnates though.) You need an 18 Con to have it be useful after 12th level; 20 Con to keep it useful from 18th to 31st. Incarnum Focus can be useful, but it depends on whether or not you want to use the slot for a genuine magic item. Incarnum Focuses can benefit a lot from the "Adding Common Effects" rules in Magic Item Compendium.

Nice thing about Essentia Capacity & Soulborns: If you find a way to increase it, you don't have to look at it like the Soulborn doesn't have enough Essentia. You can keep the invested Essentia at the "normal" levels and then boost it on an as needed basis. Essentia is fun that way. :smallsmile:
Admittedly, I was working blind without a good list in front of me, but every feat I wanted also came with a free essentia. That guy had 7 with just his bonus feats.That's pretty decent. If a lot of that is from Incarnum Feats you wouldn't be lacking in places to put it. (That can actually be an issue with Soulborns depending on the build.)