The death of monster chars (in AL) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zene

2017-11-18, 01:20 AM

Yeah, it's sad. It's a combination of the effect of the +1 rule, and the fact that many prior builds are now strictly sub-optimal now that XGE is out (with major power creep). Since the monstrous races are locked out, they might never be seen again.

Even their formerly unique advantages (like Kobold's pack tactics) now have lots of ways to be duplicated in XGE. It's actually kind of weird how the Volo's races were given drawbacks to balance (or in some cases overbalance) their advantages; yet in XGE, there seems to be no concern over super-powerful new additions, and no counterbalance. I actually don't care about the lack of counterbalancing in XGE; but the fact that Volo's was made that way, and now XGE isn't, means Volo's races now suck in comparison.

It's a shame that we won't see many bugbears / yuan-ti / lizardfolk / etc. anymore --and the ones we do see will be pathetically underpowered :/

I totally get the phb+1 rule, and I understand why we need it. I just wish it didn't end up in this case throwing out an entire book's usefulness to PCs.

Oh yeah and the no free rebuild thing is absolute crap. XGE has basically devalued a good chunk of prior subclasses and builds; players are now stuck with starting over, or playing characters they know are extremely sub-optimal. I know for some that's ok, but for a lot of us that makes the game a lot less fun, knowing you're playing a permanently gimped character. Free rebuilds would hurt no one, and would make the game a lot more fun for a lot of players.

By the way, did everyone take the AL survey that came out a few days back? Hopefully WOTC got lots of feedback on these points... especially the rebuild thing.

Regitnui

2017-11-18, 01:25 AM

XGE has basically devalued a good chunk of prior subclasses and builds; player are now stuck with starting over, or playing characters they know are extremely sub-optimal. I know for some that's ok, but for a lot of us that really sucks.

Just to clarify for the rest of us; 'suboptimal' is still within 5e standards? Like you're missing maybe 5hp and a +2 on damage that you could otherwise get?

Zene

2017-11-18, 01:34 AM

Just to clarify for the rest of us; 'suboptimal' is still within 5e standards? Like you're missing maybe 5hp and a +2 on damage that you could otherwise get?

The two most glaring examples in my mind, are:

1) The opportunity to create builds with superadvantage -- never possible in AL before, and something like an Eldritch Blast build or a sharpshooter or any critfishing build made before it will always be significantly, measurably worse in comparison. Even with the same class or multiclass split, same race, same spells -- it will be rolling less dice, doing less damage, critting less often; noticeably worse in comparison to Player B at that same table with an XGE character. And with MC dips into Hexblade 1, any cha-based attack roll build (and even some that weren't cha-based, but are now) will be noticeably better in comparison to its prior incarnation.

2) Hexblades. Getting a free super-shillelagh, champion level 3 ability, concentration-free hex, medium armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and the shield spell, at level one. And then just ramping up from there with smites. Any prior bladelock build is going to suck in comparison. Hell, any prior EB blaster build is going to suck in comparison.

Other things have potential --like:
-the Cavalier and Ancestors Barbarian being better tanks than anything that's come before,
-and the Blades bard being a better version of the Valor bard,
-and the Zealot Barb being a better dpr barbarian than any prior,
-and the fact that any half-elf, human, or half orc can pick up expertise in athletics via prodigy and make a single-class grappling build, while all the old grappling builds had to detour through a multiclass dip to have the same effectiveness (at a higher character level)
...those might or might not be enough of a power differential to be really noticeable, time will tell.

Again, I don't have problems with any of these things... many of them were necessary fixes... but the fact that AL players are being locked into old, broken builds (or starting over from level 1) is unnecessary and anti-fun. If the class needed fixing, existing character builds *using* that class needed fixing too.

I know I personally have at least four characters - a T4, a T3, and two T2's -- that every time I play from here out, I'm going to be thinking "man this would be so much better if I'd made it after XGE". This wasn't the case with Volo's... sure there were a couple neat tweaks here and there that would have made existing characters better. But it didn't elevate the game to a whole different level/style of play, which XGE seems to be doing.

Regitnui

2017-11-18, 02:07 AM

...those might or might not be enough of a power differential to be really noticeable, time will tell.

So... It's all still vaguely on the same power level, just a step up from what we had?

Zene

2017-11-18, 02:42 AM

So... It's all still vaguely on the same power level, just a step up from what we had?

I guess the answer to that depends on how you define "power level".

But my point was the first two are immediate, obvious game changers; the latter grouping is potential things that might be game changers, but at this point it's too early to tell (since XGE's been out 1 week).

I get the sense you're looking for holes in my statements... wanna just come out and tell me where/if you disagree?

Zene

2017-11-18, 02:44 AM

And to answer your earlier question more directly, no, it's not +2 damage and 5 HP I'm saying is a big leap.

Regitnui

2017-11-18, 04:12 AM

And to answer your earlier question more directly, no, it's not +2 damage and 5 HP I'm saying is a big leap.

That's my question. I'm a flavour geek, not a mechanics man. I can't agree or disagree because I don't know what's going on. :smallwink:

mgshamster

2017-11-18, 11:00 AM

Naanomi

2017-11-18, 11:17 AM

I’m ok with the +1 rule, but it is a shame that you can’t combine some obvious race/class combinations... no aasimar/Celestial warlock... no hobgoblin War Wizard... no svirfneblin gloomstalker...

Zene

2017-11-18, 12:43 PM

That's my question. I'm a flavour geek, not a mechanics man. I can't agree or disagree because I don't know what's going on. :smallwink:

Ah ok, got it : )

Zene

2017-11-18, 12:47 PM

You guys do know that there's always a way to rebuild one of your characters, right?

All you have to do is give back to the community and earn a DM Quest Reward. Rewards include 20,000 XP for one PC or a complete rebuild at any level for one of your PCs. Just DM some games and earn your rewards.

All you have to do is give back to the AL community.

Depends on the season, but that reward usually requires running an entire hardcover and several specific AL mods in one season —per each character rebuild.

Not only is that an unattainable goal for most AL players, it’s even an unnattainable goal for a lot of AL DMs. Tying what should be an option for every player to elite, 30+ hours required DM rewards is not a workable solution.

mgshamster

2017-11-18, 12:53 PM

Depends on the season, but that reward usually requires running an entire hardcover and several specific AL mods in one season —per each character rebuild.

Not only is that an unattainable goal for most AL players, it’s even an unnattainable goal for a lot of AL DMs. Tyig what should be an option for every player to elite, 30+ hours rewuired DM rewards is not a workable solution.

If you don't want to spend the time giving back to the community, that's on you.

Otherwise, run a few games to get one of the lower rewards, and start at level 3 or 4. Heck, simply DM one game while being a part of the AL Facebook, Google+, and Twitter gets you 1500 XP at the start of each season. Bam! Level 3 PC ready to go!

But if you're unwilling to give back to the community, then start at level 1 one. Being selfish and unwilling to work with the community means that you don't get the benefits that those willing to volunteer their time receive.

Zene

2017-11-18, 01:05 PM

If you don't want to spend the time giving back to the community, that's on you.

Otherwise, run a few games to get one of the lower rewards, and start at level 3 or 4. Heck, simply DM one game while being a part of the AL Facebook, Google+, and Twitter gets you 1500 XP at the start of each season. Bam! Level 3 PC ready to go!

But if you're unwilling to give back to the community, then start at level 1 one. Being selfish and unwilling to work with the community means that you don't get the benefits that those willing to volunteer their time receive.

Claiming that the only ones giving back to the community are the DMs that complete that quest is —no offense— irrational, elitist BS.

Also, that’s not even close to the topic at hand.

(By the way, I DM quite a bit at cons and my local store ...and yet I can still clearly see that DM rewards are not the way to do this.)

mgshamster

2017-11-18, 01:14 PM

Claiming that the only ones giving back to the community are the DMs that complete that quest is —no offense— irrational, elitist BS.

Also, that’s not even close to the topic at hand.

(By the way, I DM quite a bit at cons and my local store ...and yet I can still clearly see that DM rewards are not the way to do this.)

No, it isn't irrational elitist BS. Everyone wants to play. Everyone wants to have a PC. Very few want to DM (especially since DMs don't get magic items or other cool rewards without the special DM Quests).

This was such a problem in PFS that all my FLGSs had to provide in-store incentives to get people to DM a game, and even then games sometimes got canceled because there were no DMs to run the game and none of the players were willing to step up. Very few people *want* to run a game.

So make the sacrifice as run an occasional game. Get the special rewards, make a new PC.

Can't be willing to do that? Then don't bitch. If you can't volunteer, you don't get special treats. Don't like it? Find a home game.

Part of being in a community means that you sometimes have to take up responsibilities. You don't get all the benefits just by showing up and doing things solely for yourself.

That someone would consider special incentives for those who volunteer (and no bonuses if you refuse to volunteer) "elitist bull****" absolutely boggles my mind.

Edit: Get a player who has never DM'd an AL game before to run 1 two hour session. That's 7,500 XP for you, a free level 5 PC. And the new DM gets their own rewards! Or hell, just have a birthday, you get free XP every year equal to 100 XP for each season you DM'd at least one game times the number of years you've been a DM. For me, next year, I'll get 8,500 XP. That's another level 5 PC.

Kuulvheysoon

2017-11-18, 03:57 PM

I don't know anything at all about AL (seriously, nothing), but if these DM Rewards work like it sounds like they do, a neat Reward could be allowing you to build a character with more than just the PHB+1. For example, allowing PHB+Volo's+XGE.

Zanthy1

2017-11-19, 09:58 AM

need another book i see, had no idea there was one with Monster races in it

"Volo's Guide to Monsters" is what you should look for. Has about 13 new races you can pick

LtPowers

2017-11-19, 01:21 PM

With the release of X I'm seeing a dramatic drop-off in players running bugbears, hobgoblin, Lizardmen...er folk (decades ago they were Lizardmen - it's stuck in my brain, sorry) and so on. So Volos races - poof for the most part, gone. (are Tortles factored under XgtE?)

I'm surprised you're seeing a rash of new characters already given XGtE has been legal for only a week. Everyone at my table is still playing the characters we started Season 7 with.

Powers &8^]

Tanarii

2017-11-19, 01:36 PM

That someone would consider special incentives for those who volunteer (and no bonuses if you refuse to volunteer) "elitist bull****" absolutely boggles my mind.When players feel entitled to a special benefit for nothing/free, they get all bent out of shape when it's "denied" them.

Waterdeep Merch

2017-11-19, 02:50 PM

When players feel entitled to a special benefit for nothing/free, they get all bent out of shape when it's "denied" them.
How in the world are players getting jealous of their DM's for not getting to play the game? Are there really so many DM's out there that it's practically a fight to see who can sit behind the screen and earn all those delicious rewards that they can't actually use so long as they remain behind the screen?

It's the least that could be done for regular DM's, as at least it somewhat entices players to take up the reins every once and a while and give the regular DM's a chance to play. It would be nice if there were perks for AL DM's that related more to DMing, since DM's always end up DMing and only rarely ever get to play anyway.

It's like rewarding a blind person with pricey sunglasses.

mgshamster

2017-11-19, 02:54 PM

How in the world are players getting jealous of their DM's for not getting to play the game?

Above, someone was complaining that only DMs get the rewards of Free XP and Free Rebuilds, and players aren't entitled to it.

There are other rewards beyond just XP and rebuilds, though. Some of the AL awards grant DMs the opportunity to put magic items in the game for PCs to get. To me, that's a pretty cool award for a DM (since I mostly DM AL games).

I'm not really sure what a DM reward would really be, other than the ability to grant more goodies.

ZorroGames

2017-11-19, 03:13 PM

Since we have wandered far off topic anyway let me toss in my grognard ignorance...

My wife specifically remembers how many hours I put in back in Sacramento and Seattle as a DM in OD&D/AD&D and asked me to “please just play” this time around. And the only rewards were emotional.

DM is time investment. At 67 I use my time to play. Maybe when my wife retires and her job and my hobby are less out of sync I would consider returning to DM’ing but I am really digging playing in 5e so much.

Death of ‘monster characters’? Did they ban Dwarf, Elf, and all the other non-human races? :smallconfused: :smallwink: :smallsmile:

HolyDraconus

2017-11-19, 04:45 PM

..... on topic. Yes. Absolutely correct. Volo's at this point might as well not exist in AL. Ranger in PHB feels like it's not finished, paladin feels like, even though alignment is supposed to not be a huge factor a "surprise! It is!". Players value options. I understood this HOUSE RULE back in 3.x, but here where there was a design choice from the start to limit splat? Not even remotely needed.

Zene

2017-11-19, 08:03 PM

That someone would consider special incentives for those who volunteer (and no bonuses if you refuse to volunteer) "elitist bull****" absolutely boggles my mind.

Above, someone was complaining that only DMs get the rewards of Free XP and Free Rebuilds, and players aren't entitled to it.

Except I didn't do either of those things. At all.

I was talking about one particular thing: A rebuild when a new part of the game is released that invalidates large parts of the old game. I believe it is unfair to 95% of the player base to lock that behind a reward that no player will ever get unless they invest dozens of hours in DMing extremely specific material. A reward that even many AL DMs won't get because they don't DM that very specific material. And a reward that even AL DMs that earn it, maybe will earn it once, in extremely rare cases more than once, but likely never enough to rebuild more than a character or two.

You, in response, said that was the way it should be. That those players should be DMing (never mind that some players like DMing, some players don't, and some players shouldn't be DMing). That those DMs should be working harder. That only the folks who jumped through the exact right hoops to achieve that one particular reward should have the honor of not having their beloved characters, who they built up over seasons or years, made obselete.

And that --your attitude-- was what I called elitist BS. And I stand by that :)

Note, by the way, that the last time there was even a little bit of tiny power creep with new subclasses and spells (SCAG), rebuilds were given to players. It didn't break the game. It didn't make people stop DMing. This, now, is many times that level of game effect -- XGE is almost a new game entirely.

A player that, for example, struggled with one of the PHB ranger subclasses for years, got attached to the character despite the fact that the class had major design flaws --I don't care whether he DM's or not... shouldn't now have to sit at tables full of Gloom Stalkers, and watch them do the exact same thing his character tries to do... only do it waaaay, waaay better. For a certain segment of players, that's going to make him have a crappy time.

And before the chorus starts up with "that's the wrong way to play, then" or "play for the RP, not the mechanics" -- remember there are lots of different ways to enjoy this game, and almost none of them are wrong. To shut down or crap on players that play it for the mechanics -- in full or in part-- is also elitist. To crap on players that don't DM--for whatever reason-- is elitist. To crap on DMs that don't DM as much as you do, or whatever ideal ratio of playing to DMing you have in your head--is elitist.

This is a big world, and it takes all kinds to make the AL community. Just because the store you play in had some DM shortages or whatever, doesn't mean the entire AL playerbase should get stuck with broken characters --that the game has now fixed, mechanics-wise, but they can't partake of that.

When players feel entitled to a special benefit for nothing/free, they get all bent out of shape when it's "denied" them.

Ugh. By your logic, players shouldn't even get to play. Every single hour of playtime should be pre-earned with blood, sweat, and tears DMing.

Honestly, I'd argue that if this is what it takes to get you to want to DM --you shouldn't be DMing. DMing should be fun. If it feels like a chore, or something you're just doing for the rewards, that lack of fun is going to bleed through to the player experience.

It would be nice if there were perks for AL DM's that related more to DMing, since DM's always end up DMing and only rarely ever get to play anyway.

It's like rewarding a blind person with pricey sunglasses.

Lol good analogy. I actually love the rewards that relate to DMing, like being able to add a traveling merchant with a consumable for sale, or being able to add an uncommon of your choice to the adventure somewhere. It's awesome to think "what would be really fun for this player group" and then have that little extra edge to make it happen, because you've put in time DMing. And the folks I know that almost exclusively DM, honestly never use like 95% of their rewards. Or they burn it all on a 17th level character so they can play a T4 epic one time, and then never play that character again.

Honestly, I'm even ok with DM rewards that don't relate to DMing. XP, item rewards, unlocking certain classes/races, etc -- that's all cool. But when someone says that the fix for a problem that affects the entire playerbase, should only be handed out to people that DM super-specific material... that's just idiotic.

mgshamster

2017-11-19, 08:39 PM

. But when someone says that the fix for a problem that affects the entire playerbase,

Ah. I see the issue. You think this is an actual problem that people can't free rebuild their PCs.

In reality, it's not a problem. There's nothing broken with the system about this; it's just something that some people find to be a minor annoyance. But a problem that *needs* fixing? No, it's not a problem and there's no need for a fix.

Just start a new PC and they'll be up to mid levels in no time. Or rebuild a PC that's under level 5 and build them up.

What we have here is a want, not a problem that requires fixing.

Zene

2017-11-19, 09:21 PM

Ah. I see the issue. You think this is an actual problem

Ah, weird. I would have thought you’d pick that up from my first post on it. Glad you finally figured it out though.

No, it's not a problem and there's no need for a fix.

Yeah, there are always people who think things that don’t affect them aren’t important. That doesn’t really concern me, especially if your best argument amounts to “Nah I think it’s fine” lol

Tanarii

2017-11-19, 09:59 PM

What we have here is a want, not a problem that requires fixing.
Yup. Otherwise I wouldn't be calling the attitude entitlement. That goes hand in hand with a belief that a personal want is a global need.

PeteNutButter

2017-11-20, 01:54 AM

Yup. Otherwise I wouldn't be calling the attitude entitlement. That goes hand in hand with a belief that a personal want is a global need.

I too am very annoyed they didn't give us a rebuild. Mostly because I expected it, based on the past. They released a much smaller book and gave us all a free rebuild with SCAG.

It's like getting a Christmas bonus every year, and then getting a membership to the jelly of the month. Yeah you still got something... but not hardly what you expected.

At the very least they could have told everyone they weren't allowing character rebuilds months in advance, you know like when the recent campaign book came out that everyone is now a few months into. We legitimately had this conversation at my local store:

Me: "Maybe we should wait to run ToA until after Xanathar's comes out so everyone can use the new cool stuff on characters." (We still hadn't done Against the Giants from TYP yet.)
Other DM: "Nah, they'll give us a free rebuild like last time so we can play the new stuff."

I then proceeded to build a character intending to be a Kensei, and played him for a few months. Now he is forever stuck as open hand, and therefore will never see play again. Just the thought of playing the character makes me salty. (And if I get the rebuild from DM quests I'll use it on my CoS character to abuse the **** out the amber temple buffs.)

To sum up, I'm salty about this not because I didn't get it, but because I planned around getting it and didn't. I already put the down payment on the pool.

Chugger

2017-11-20, 02:36 AM

Zene, you're being very cool here, even though (as I see it) Mgshamster is crossing a line with you and being actually rude.

I've always been a fan of your posts, Zene, your enthusiasm for what you do, your wonderful attitude, and your basic take on the game. Everything you've said on this post has been well-thought-out, and I agree with it.

MgsHamster, you made a good point when you said DM and earn - but when you started implying that only by doing the full hardcover 30 hr grind or w/e it is are we "giving back" to the AL community - you went off the deep end. That's silly. It's also silly, rude, and short-sighted to say this isn't a problem. It is. Also, not everyone has the skill to DM - and those people should only be playing. I do hope you'll take a deep breath, count a bit, and think more before firing off here - or anywhere else on this forum. You probably have a lot to offer - and in general I agree with you about giving back to AL - but some of your specific twisting of this, you're bordering on being a bully. And I despise that. Just back off and make decent arguments - you don't have to red-line it like you were doing earlier.

Lonely Tylenol

2017-11-20, 03:32 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down for a second, guys.

There are rewards? For DMing AL?

OldTrees1

2017-11-20, 04:18 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down for a second, guys.

There are rewards? For DMing AL?

http://dndadventurersleague.org/dm-quests/

Yes. The DM gets DM rewards in the way of XP, Gold, and Downtime days (no renown). These values tend to be lower than what the PCs gained that session.

DMs also can complete DM Quests which give some extra rewards (same kinds of rewards).

These allow people who DM to have some extra flexibility with the characters they play when they are Players as recognition of the time they spend DMing instead of progressing that character.

sithlordnergal

2017-11-20, 04:41 AM

You guys do know that there's always a way to rebuild one of your characters, right?

All you have to do is give back to the community and earn a DM Quest Reward. Rewards include 20,000 XP for one PC or a complete rebuild at any level for one of your PCs. Just DM some games and earn your rewards.

All you have to do is give back to the AL community.

In order to get that reward I would need to run all of the little adventures before the season ends. Not even considering that I lack the time to run all of them, I also lack the cash to buy all of the mini adventures. For me at least, they essentially put the build behind a literal paywall.

OldTrees1

2017-11-20, 04:58 AM

In order to get that reward I would need to run all of the little adventures before the season ends. Not even considering that I lack the time to run all of them, I also lack the cash to buy all of the mini adventures. For me at least, they essentially put the build behind a literal paywall.

DM rewards can allow you to rebuild a Tier 2-4 character by creating a new character with roughly the same xp/gold/downtime days/magic items/renown. This is likely a much more achievable method than the literal rebuild option.

Lombra

2017-11-20, 05:47 AM

Can't play a scourge aasimar zaelot in adventurer's league, that's just the most fitting race/class combo ever and the rules prevent it. It just makes no sense. I'm happy and lucky that I have a group of friends to play with that flat out ignores that +1 rule.

Beelzebubba

2017-11-20, 05:59 AM

As far as the respec, having worked on the 'other side' of initiatives with big, social, highly active and invested users, these decisions are not made in a flippant, callous, or unthinking way.

It is frustrating, but it might help to think about the bad things that can happen with high level global respecs. Judging from how customer-centric this team has been, I'd bet money this decision went through a long cost/benefit analysis before the call was made.

I know that doesn't really help, but most decisions like this will always frustrate somebody.

--

For the death of monster stuff, how could it not be any other way right now? N+1 was created specifically because of the game-breaking cheese found between 3.X splats. One of their top priorities was to eliminate as much 'mechanical mastery' as possible, so people can build what feels right and it will be viable.

So, yeah - it's not 'stupid' or 'useless' or anything that black and white. When you start trying to balance features between N+2 books, it becomes exponentially more difficult to prevent those exploits. So, instead of watering down everything to prevent munchkins from breaking AL any more than they do now, they put in a few more unique, flavorful and powerful things, and then balance it against one other source.

Again, the idea that this stuff is 'easy' or 'simple' to do is unrealistic. They have to make a call somewhere. It will never be perfect.

LtPowers

2017-11-20, 08:49 AM

It is frustrating, but it might help to think about the bad things that can happen with high level global respecs. Judging from how customer-centric this team has been, I'd bet money this decision went through a long cost/benefit analysis before the call was made.

Agreed, though a limited respec would have been nice. Maybe only allowing a change of subclass. I'm fortunate that my Season 7 Kelemvorite Life Cleric was only level 4 when XGtE became legal; the Grave Domain is just such a perfect fit.

Powers &8^]

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-20, 09:01 AM

All you have to do is give back to the AL community. This core point is applauded. I was amazed to see you get pushback on that.

My wife specifically remembers how many hours I put in back in Sacramento and Seattle as a DM in OD&D/AD&D and asked me to “please just play” this time around. And the only rewards were emotional.
Happy Wife, happy life. My wife was unwilling to let me go Wednesdays for AL games at FLGS, so I get no AL at all. Priorities are what they are.
DM is time investment (snip) I would consider returning to DM’ing but I am really digging playing in 5e so much. [/QUOTE] Please do. Your players will likely appreciate it.
Yup. Otherwise I wouldn't be calling the attitude entitlement. That goes hand in hand with a belief that a personal want is a global need. Yeah, I'd say you called it, but I'll stop there and offer the following caveat: GiTP forums are to a certain extent venting platforms, so it might be that the position seems a bit overstated based on the medium we are using to communicate.

Naanomi

2017-11-20, 09:05 AM

Expecting everyone to be able to give back in that way isn’t really feasible though... some communities have fairly small AL numbers, not everyone is going to be able to run every adventure to rack up the points (and not every player is going to want to run HotDQ again so you can earn a rebuild).

I’m glad the rewards exist (I’ve got a bunch built up that I’ll likely never use); but to see them somehow as ‘expected’ or even somehow ‘obligatory’ is a bit off from my AL experiences

mgshamster

2017-11-20, 09:46 AM

MgsHamster, you made a good point when you said DM and earn - but when you started implying that only by doing the full hardcover 30 hr grind or w/e it is are we "giving back" to the AL community - you went off the deep end. That's silly. It's also silly, rude, and short-sighted to say this isn't a problem. It is. Also, not everyone has the skill to DM - and those people should only be playing. I do hope you'll take a deep breath, count a bit, and think more before firing off here - or anywhere else on this forum. You probably have a lot to offer - and in general I agree with you about giving back to AL - but some of your specific twisting of this, you're bordering on being a bully. And I despise that. Just back off and make decent arguments - you don't have to red-line it like you were doing earlier.

You may want to go back and reread my posts. Included in them are suggestions for how to get a quick 1500 XP, 7500 XP, and even free XP ranging from 100-20,000+ on an annual basis (you literally get free XP on your birthday based on how many seasons you've been a DM and how many years you've been DMing in general for any edition).

There's lots of ways to get xp by DMing a game or two a year.

How that in any way is "going off the deep end" and how suggesting that someone volunteer and give back to the community is "crossing the line and rude" is absolutely boggling. I am truly and honestly confused by that.

Edit: Here's another way to get 20k XP: Run an online high level game. The high level games grant up to 10,000 XP for the DM, and since it's online, it's doubled. 20k right there! If you stream it, save it so anyone can view it later, and advertising it with the D&D tag, XP is tripped! Don't want to run a Level 20 four-hour mod? Run a couple of Level 10 modules at 5k each.

And since rewards are additive, if you qualify for all of the reasonable "double the rewards" available (online, stream, curse, charity, and on/off grid), you could get up to x6 the XP. With a single level 20 4-hour mod, you could get 60,000 XP. Run the same one three times, and you get 160k (only qualify for on/off grid once), plus an extra 4k, plus all the player rewards for one PC (which may or may not also be multiplied). That gives you a free build up to level 15, for about 15 hours of volunteer time.

Don't want to do that? Run the first two level 1 modules three times each (about 30 hours of volunteer time), and get a free rebuild up to level 10. Make it an online game, and get double the DM rewards.

There are so many ways of getting XP, and all it takes is some volunteer time.

Expecting everyone to be able to give back in that way isn’t really feasible though... some communities have fairly small AL numbers, not everyone is going to be able to run every adventure to rack up the points (and not every player is going to want to run HotDQ again so you can earn a rebuild).

There's also an online community, and even double rewards for running an online game. There really isn't such a things as too small a community in today's day and age.

Heck, most of the AL games I run are PBP games. People complain about the lack of time to run a two-hour module at the local store or in a chat room, but that same two-hour module is a four-week module using pbp. And that's only if all your players are posting daily. (Four-hour modules take around 6-10 weeks on PBP).

Tanarii

2017-11-20, 10:35 AM

To sum up, I'm salty about this not because I didn't get it, but because I planned around getting it and didn't. I already put the down payment on the pool.I'm not trying to take a dump on people who are salty about it and venting. I get salty and complain about stuff all the time. And the Christmas bonus analogy is a good one for explaining your position, and the way you calmly explained your saltiness is utterly amazing, especially in the face of my using fairly aggressive terminology. Kudos.

But there's a difference between wanting and even expecting it because it's happened every time historically, planning for it, and being salty when this time around they didn't give it ... and expecting it as some kind of right for 95% of all players, an error than needs to be fixed. That it's not fair to everyone.

That latter is one form of entitlement. Yes, that is a loaded word, it probably crosses the line into rudeness considering how loaded it is. But that attitude is exactly what the word entitlement means.

PeteNutButter

2017-11-20, 11:19 AM

I'm not trying to take a dump on people who are salty about it and venting. I get salty and complain about stuff all the time. And the Christmas bonus analogy is a good one for explaining your position, and the way you calmly explained your saltiness is utterly amazing, especially in the face of my using fairly aggressive terminology. Kudos.

But there's a difference between wanting and even expecting it because it's happened every time historically, planning for it, and being salty when this time around they didn't give it ... and expecting it as some kind of right for 95% of all players, an error than needs to be fixed. That it's not fair to everyone.

That latter is one form of entitlement. Yes, that is a loaded word, it probably crosses the line into rudeness considering how loaded it is. But that attitude is exactly what the word entitlement means.
Anyone who thinks they have a right to something and then has it taken away, clearly didn't have a right to it. :smalltongue:

Honesty, I half expected them to take it away, per my skeptical conversation I quoted before. I'm not even really mad that they didn't give us a rebuild, so much as mad that it was a surprise. I get the reasoning. This forces everyone to keep playing the game more, as they need to make new characters to use the new book, etc. I just wasted months of play on a character that is just bitter to me now and also several hours on a figuring out all the rebuilds and item transfers on my rebuilt characters.

Just thinking about it, part of me is relieved that they didn't give us this rebuild, as a few of my characters would have turned out to be outright busted. You can only break the game so far, before it stops being fun anyways.

Beelzebubba

2017-11-20, 12:11 PM

I'm not even really mad that they didn't give us a rebuild, so much as mad that it was a surprise. I get the reasoning. This forces everyone to keep playing the game more, as they need to make new characters to use the new book, etc.

So, you're not mad?

I just wasted months of play on a character that is just bitter to me now

Naw, u mad.

and also several hours on a figuring out all the rebuilds and item transfers on my rebuilt characters. Just thinking about it, part of me is relieved that they didn't give us this rebuild, as a few of my characters would have turned out to be outright busted. You can only break the game so far, before it stops being fun anyways.

So, you feel like months of time is 'wasted' because you spent it messing with your imaginary characters for a fantasy elf game? Um, isn't that called...a hobby? Recreation? Fun?

Yeah, I think Tanarii is a bit harsh, but in your case, he has you nailed. If you are using D&D as a platform for achieving 'goals' that are anything more than 'enjoy the **** out of the time I spend doing it' then something is messed up.

I spent a looooooooong messing with my current character. Feat trees, multiclass builds, spell selections, ASI progressions, ALL SORTS of stuff. I couldn't make up my mind. They were all good choices that had significant drawbacks.

In the end, I went with the 'boring' feat choice, because - get this - I put myself in the character's shoes, and considered what he'd experienced in the games, and then it was dead simple.

You know what? Every bit of that was fun. Even if I never used it. Go figure.

Tanarii

2017-11-20, 12:28 PM

Yeah, I think Tanarii is a bit harsh, but in your case, he has you nailed.Naw, I understand why he's upset given his specific expectation and planning around that, only to have it not occur. And he clearly can think rationally about his emotional reaction to it, instead of using his thinking to merely justify it.

PeteNutButter

2017-11-20, 02:19 PM

So, you're not mad?
Naw, u mad.

I said I'm not mad they didn't give it to us, but am mad that it was a surprise. I don't get how that's hard to understand.

So, you feel like months of time is 'wasted' because you spent it messing with your imaginary characters for a fantasy elf game? Um, isn't that called...a hobby? Recreation? Fun?

Yeah, I think Tanarii is a bit harsh, but in your case, he has you nailed. If you are using D&D as a platform for achieving 'goals' that are anything more than 'enjoy the **** out of the time I spend doing it' then something is messed up.

I spent a looooooooong messing with my current character. Feat trees, multiclass builds, spell selections, ASI progressions, ALL SORTS of stuff. I couldn't make up my mind. They were all good choices that had significant drawbacks.

In the end, I went with the 'boring' feat choice, because - get this - I put myself in the character's shoes, and considered what he'd experienced in the games, and then it was dead simple.

You know what? Every bit of that was fun. Even if I never used it. Go figure.

I don't mind the time theory crafting, I like that part. It's the AL number crunching, downtime BS, and all that that was actually wasted.

I didn't mention that my character has the Kensei aspect built into his backstory. I also didn't mention that I had specifically ordered, modified, and then hand painted a miniature to use with my Kensei (longsword in hand). So I have this miniature and this character that will never see play. The miniature will permanently be this character in my mind, so I won't reuse it. The character will permanently be just wrong. If you can't understand how that would frustrate a player then you have like -10 to empathy.

Fortunately for me, I have other characters I still like and enough DM xp saved up that I can just bump an entirely different character to the same level. Then again, that's kind of crappy, because I'm bringing in a new character mid story.

At any rate, why didn't they just swap the release dates of XGE and ToA? I'm sure there is some business reason, I'm not accusing WoTC of being short-sighted from a business standpoint, but as a player... It'd sure make a hell of a lot more sense to give people a book full of character options, give them a couple months to figure out what they really want to play, and then release a cool new campaign.

HolyDraconus

2017-11-20, 02:34 PM

The n+1 rule makes zero sense in this edition. Maybe in 3.x where there was dozens of splat that can make absurd solo chars in parties but in AL 5e theres...4. It's been out for years and only 4. And with 2 of them having class options and only 1 having racial options that limit your choices in AL it needs to go.

But it wont. They tweeted they will not drop it a while back. Even when argued that there is no imbalance in allowing it they said no. So enjoy not seeing a Volo race for the foreseeable future. It's just going to be players races only (with variant elves from scag that isn't a +1 just like human languages).

mephnick

2017-11-20, 02:56 PM

I think it's less about OP characters and more about not overwhelming players new to the hobby.

Whether that goal is attained or even necessary is arguable though.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-20, 03:39 PM

I think it's less about OP characters and more about not overwhelming players new to the hobby.

Whether that goal is attained or even necessary is arguable though.

I think it's to keep AL DM's from pulling their hair out.

I am playing in a home game (roll20) that has had a couple of UA classes in it, to include Lore Master Wizard. No, the game didn't break, yes, we are having fun. But each build has to be run by the DM for a sanity check/approval, massaging. Works fine.

PeteNutButter

2017-11-20, 03:54 PM

I think it's to keep AL DM's from pulling their hair out.

I am playing in a home game (roll20) that has had a couple of UA classes in it, to include Lore Master Wizard. No, the game didn't break, yes, we are having fun. But each build has to be run by the DM for a sanity check/approval, massaging. Works fine.

But there are likely to be different players utilizing a different +1... so the DM still has to be familiar with all of the content.

Chugger

2017-11-20, 04:06 PM

Mgshamster, go back and re-read ... wow - we're on two different planets, dude - in two different universes.

You're coming in here at the very least strongly implying "I have a one-size-fits-all" solution the the "problem that does not exist" - yes, that's what you said. You may not like it boiled down in this way, now that you see it removed from the rhetorical props you'd put to help hold it up - but this is the core of what you're saying. And it's wrong.

AL DMing doesn't work for all of us. Some of us lack the talent to DM.

Some of us lack the time.

You're saying if there even is a problem the only way to solve it is to "give back to the community" and earn xp - and if you can't earn the remake then what, burn your xp to try to create a new char near the lvl of the one that we feel is screwed by the changes? This doesn't even address one of my core issues! That being if I have a Volos race I can't use a XgtE class or spell! And I can't use scag cantrips with X classes.

Never mind the power creep that others have brought up, but you insist this is not a problem.

I will agree with you that AL DMing is a solution for _some_ of us - for _some_ of our issues. See? I'm not unreasonable and irrational. I can be conciliatory when it's appropriate. Can you? I'm doubting it heavily, but I'm hoping you can. Whatever it is you think you're saying, the words you've written have meaning - and from my chair I'm seeing rudeness and a very petty-semming (and possibly ego-feeding) reluctance to admit on your part that your one-size-fits-all solution doesn't work for everyone. And then you insist a problem that many of us are saying is a problem is not a problem, and you're not giving an objective framework that overrides our already-proved subjective stance - and even if our stance is subjective so what? Why does our need somehow make it "not a problem" to you? And can't you see how through the lens of the Internet format that this makes you look pompous? We're not even insisting on what the solution is - solutions can be problematic here - another conciliatory point on my part.

Stop being "all right" and "all mighty". Stop telling yourself we're wrong and rethink this from our standpoint, try to see why we're saying what we're saying. We need to evolve from base head-butting. Why don't you suggest solutions other than AL DMing because again - not everyone has that skill. And while those who DM deserve rewards, it's not fair to imply that DMing is the only way to support the AL community. Buying from the stores that give us space is another way, instead of buying off the internet. Helping the store guys set up the tables and clean up afterward is another way. Staying late and working with new players, as I do, to help them understand the rules and to ease frustrations they have - to help them see how to better play - is another way to support the AL community. Staying late and talking with frustrated players who, for example, have autism and who are angry over other players "being stupid" because they role play flaws - and I try to talk them down and give them methods to cope with this and understand it - understand what role playing is and not get irritated by this - I do this - I've invested many many hours helping new players and helping autistic players - and I get none of the perks and do-dads you've gotten DMing, yet I'm doing something very important - I'm helping to retain players who otherwise might have quit - I'm helping improve the quality of play and understanding for others. So get down off your high horse and your hiding under the mantle of "give back" because you're using that, you're conflating - you're using a rhetorical bait and switch trick - you're basically saying "if you don't agree with me you're not supporting the community" - and that is a misuse of rhetoric. Do you see now why I'm not all that happy with you?

tsotate

2017-11-20, 04:20 PM

Yeah, I think Tanarii is a bit harsh, but in your case, he has you nailed. If you are using D&D as a platform for achieving 'goals' that are anything more than 'enjoy the **** out of the time I spend doing it' then something is messed up.
Gods forbid someone enjoy different things about gaming than you do. We'll just be over here, having our BadWrongFun.

Tanarii

2017-11-20, 04:58 PM

Mgshamster, go back and re-read ... wow - we're on two different planets, dude - in two different universes.You're right, you're on some other planet. And way off base. mgshamster made a reasonable suggestion on how to achieve a rebuild, as well as pointing out that it's giving back to the community. Which is an awesome thing to encourage people to do, not a bad thing. And it was thoroughly overreacted to and rejected as "elitist BS". He is not in any wrong, except possibly for getting a little snippy in response to that.

If you want to harp on someone for being harsh, pick on someone that deserves it. Like me.

Beelzebubba

2017-11-20, 05:33 PM

Gods forbid someone enjoy different things about gaming than you do. We'll just be over here, having our BadWrongFun.

No, that's the point. You won't be having fun.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-21, 09:51 AM

But there are likely to be different players utilizing a different +1... so the DM still has to be familiar with all of the content. Which is why the DM has the "only with my approval" rule. He needs to review any proposed character.

AL seems to have a template that anyone can follow to guarantee an approved PC. (For the one I rolled up, before wife vetoed my AL initiative, was a point buy warlock that was pretty easy to put together).

HolyDraconus

2017-11-21, 09:59 AM

Which is why the DM has the "only with my approval" rule. He needs to review any proposed character.

AL seems to have a template that anyone can follow to guarantee an approved PC. (For the one I rolled up, before wife vetoed my AL initiative, was a point buy warlock that was pretty easy to put together).

I... Never seen a legal char vetoed in AL. I didn't think you could do that.

Tanarii

2017-11-21, 10:49 AM

I... Never seen a legal char vetoed in AL. I didn't think you could do that.
That's his point. If you follow the AL template to create a "legal" character, you will always get your character approved.

Outside of AL, the DM will always approve characters, either by drawing up their own character creation rules for allowed characters, or on an individual basis.

Edit: at least I think that was his point. I'm not sure what bearing that has on an AL DM still needing to know all source material despite the PHB+1 rule, so I may be wrong.

HolyDraconus

2017-11-21, 11:45 AM

That's his point. If you follow the AL template to create a "legal" character, you will always get your character approved.

Outside of AL, the DM will always approve characters, either by drawing up their own character creation rules for allowed characters, or on an individual basis.

Edit: at least I think that was his point. I'm not sure what bearing that has on an AL DM still needing to know all source material despite the PHB+1 rule, so I may be wrong.

I am confused. I am of the belief that a DM needs to know or ATLEAST have the ability to gain knowledge on the fly of all source material available to players in AL. What Corbin said that's getting me is "approval" in an AL setting. Since, last I checked, DMs can't dictate char choices in AL. As such, they need to know all sources . Which means the n+1 to help DMs in AL is even more dumb.

KorvinStarmast

2017-11-21, 12:00 PM

I am confused. I am of the belief that a DM needs to know or ATLEAST have the ability to gain knowledge on the fly of all source material available to players in AL. What Corbin said that's getting me is "approval" in an AL setting. Since, last I checked, DMs can't dictate char choices in AL. As such, they need to know all sources . Which means the n+1 to help DMs in AL is even more dumb. If I had tried to make a Warlock that was a Volos' Assimar (+1) that was based on the SCAG Undying Warlock(+1), that is NOT AL legal since it violates PHB +1. (As it was, I was making an Archfey Warlock Pact of Chain, half elf. Didn't even go outside of +1 :p ... and never got to play it. :( )

gain knowledge on the fly
Hardly. That's what +1 is trying to avoid.
If I am DMing home campaign, and you want to use a XGTE class, and I don't have XGTE, I veto until you bring me your copy of XGTE, we sit down together, and we go over what you want and I get a feel for how it works, or doesn't, in my campaign. Character creation is, IMO, best done as a cooperative venture between DM and Player.
PS: As a DM, I used to have one hard and fast rule. No Kender. None.
(Gnomes only if I feel very charitable during character creation, and there is a real good back story to go with it). I have since softened on gnomes, since my brother has been playing one in our on and off roll 20 game.

As to 5e, my brother and I seem to see eye to eye. Tiefling PC's don't belong in the game world. (We are working on a shared game world, 3 DM's ... though it's in the very early stages).

mgshamster

2017-11-21, 12:05 PM

I am confused. I am of the belief that a DM needs to know or ATLEAST have the ability to gain knowledge on the fly of all source material available to players in AL. What Corbin said that's getting me is "approval" in an AL setting. Since, last I checked, DMs can't dictate char choices in AL. As such, they need to know all sources . Which means the n+1 to help DMs in AL is even more dumb.

I think you're correct that a DM should have access to all the books. Specifically, a player needs to be able to reference the two books they're using and present them to the DM for audit.

However, PHB+1 means you only have to track two books at a time. You only need to review that PHB plus the one book for that one PC.

You don't have to ensure it works with this book and that book and that book for odd combinations that can get really strong or even ensure that they work the way the player is saying that do. The more books you add, that harder it is to keep track of.

So even if each player is using a different +1, it's still easier than tracking all the books at once for a single PC.

That's what happened in PFS when I used to play that. I saw one guy who always had the strongest character in the group, and one time I asked him how he made his build. Each and every aspect of his character was from a different book. Each feat from a different book, each class of his five-multiclassed pc from a different book, each spell from a different book; it was crazy complex, and there was no way to audit it before a game, even with all the material available for free online. And that was just his PC. What about the other four players?

This is what we call compounding multipliers. Or in my field, potentiation. This is when adding two or more things together yields a result greater than the sum.

Limiting it to PHB+1, even if each player has a different +1, is one heck of a lot easier to audit and ensure PCs are played correctly.