Would Removing Spell Levels Make Magic Better?

[pwykersotz]

So I'll start off with a contentius statment. I don't like D&D magic. At all. There's no theme, there's no cost, and there's nothing interesting about the sources. It's overly complicated as written, forcing a heck of a lot of memorization or flipping through books at the table. 2e had some cool ideas (I love reversable spells!), but even the early editions suffer from a very twisted way of using Jack Vance's system.

Now, I love magic outside of D&D. I am utterly enamoured with magic from books and movies, and it is a real shame that D&D fails to grab me with its system. And yes, I can already hear a few of you cracking your knuckles to type "You should try another system then!" And yes, I am trying new systems. But I like D&D, and my table likes D&D. It's what we've gamed for years. In fact, it's made up the majority of our TRPG lives. So if I can do something to 5e to make magic better, gosh darnit I want to try.

My latest in a series of probably bad but fascinating to think about ideas is this. Make all spells level 1. That's it. Scale damage and scope to be first level for all spells, and then just have those.

The specific reason I think spell levels are bad for the game (other than bloating spell selection) is that they introduce a lot of distinction without difference, and they neuter thematics. Anyone who has tried to build a character on a theme in D&D knows how difficult it can be. And yet some themes are needlessly over supported. Apparently there is a difference in using fire magic to cast Fire Bolt, Bonfire, and Produce Flame, for example. If a magic spell is just a baseline ability though, you could actually have a character grow that ability as they level and create a much more interesting scenario.

I imagine there are a number of flaws with this plan. Scaling damage is the easy one to correct for. Capacity is another, Telekinesis and Bigby's Hand would be trivial to scale down. But then there are spells like Project Image, Forcecage, and Foresight. How do you balance these in this system? Honestly, I don't entirely know. I'm imagining a system where casters can select ways to augment their spells as they level. More damage, increased capacity, or somesuch. I haven't gone that far yet.

So all that said, what I'm looking for is this. What do you guys think? For any who like the idea, do you have any ideas to implement the system? For any who don't, what specific criticisms (other than it would be a lot of work) do you have? Has anyone tried this before, or have interesting ideas to share? Honestly, I'm all ears.

[Millstone85]

It sounds like you want spells to work like UA's psionic disciplines.

Learn any one you want, at any time, but you can only put this much energy in it at once.

[Unoriginal]

There's no theme, there's no cost, and there's nothing interesting about the sources.


What do you mean by "there is no theme", exactly? There are themes in D&D magic, at minimum the different schools of magic.

What do you mean by "there is no cost", exactly? Aside from the components you need to use and what it cost your character to learn it, D&D's magic is limited by how many spell you can cast per day and how powerful those spells are.

And I'm not sure what you don't like about the sources.



Now, I love magic outside of D&D. I am utterly enamoured with magic from books and movies

Which books/movies in particular? It'd be useful to know to determine what magic system you'd like better



My latest in a series of probably bad but fascinating to think about ideas is this. Make all spells level 1. That's it. Scale damage and scope to be first level for all spells, and then just have those.

So magic users are omnipotent from level 1 and they only get to affect more things as they grow in power?




So all that said, what I'm looking for is this. What do you guys think? For any who like the idea, do you have any ideas to implement the system? For any who don't, what specific criticisms (other than it would be a lot of work) do you have? Has anyone tried this before, or have interesting ideas to share? Honestly, I'm all ears.

Well, aside that I like how magic works in 5e, my main criticism of the idea would be that it's giving all of the powers to level 1 casters.

Even without considering how powerful they would get at higher level, it would mean that at level 1 the caster could do, well, everything.

Aside from that, since a caster has already a lot of options they can choose from, I'm not really sure what it'd change. Having a generic fire spell you can use to throw firebolts when you're a beginner and then throw fireballs when you get better is not really different from having a Firebolt spell when you're a beginner and then getting a Fireball spell when you get better, for exemple.

[Throne12]

So I'll start off with a contentius statment. I don't like D&D magic. At all. There's no theme, there's no cost, and there's nothing interesting about the sources. It's overly complicated as written, forcing a heck of a lot of memorization or flipping through books at the table. 2e had some cool ideas (I love reversable spells!), but even the early editions suffer from a very twisted way of using Jack Vance's system.

Now, I love magic outside of D&D. I am utterly enamoured with magic from books and movies, and it is a real shame that D&D fails to grab me with its system. And yes, I can already hear a few of you cracking your knuckles to type "You should try another system then!" And yes, I am trying new systems. But I like D&D, and my table likes D&D. It's what we've gamed for years. In fact, it's made up the majority of our TRPG lives. So if I can do something to 5e to make magic better, gosh darnit I want to try.

My latest in a series of probably bad but fascinating to think about ideas is this. Make all spells level 1. That's it. Scale damage and scope to be first level for all spells, and then just have those.

The specific reason I think spell levels are bad for the game (other than bloating spell selection) is that they introduce a lot of distinction without difference, and they neuter thematics. Anyone who has tried to build a character on a theme in D&D knows how difficult it can be. And yet some themes are needlessly over supported. Apparently there is a difference in using fire magic to cast Fire Bolt, Bonfire, and Produce Flame, for example. If a magic spell is just a baseline ability though, you could actually have a character grow that ability as they level and create a much more interesting scenario.

I imagine there are a number of flaws with this plan. Scaling damage is the easy one to correct for. Capacity is another, Telekinesis and Bigby's Hand would be trivial to scale down. But then there are spells like Project Image, Forcecage, and Foresight. How do you balance these in this system? Honestly, I don't entirely know. I'm imagining a system where casters can select ways to augment their spells as they level. More damage, increased capacity, or somesuch. I haven't gone that far yet.

So all that said, what I'm looking for is this. What do you guys think? For any who like the idea, do you have any ideas to implement the system? For any who don't, what specific criticisms (other than it would be a lot of work) do you have? Has anyone tried this before, or have interesting ideas to share? Honestly, I'm all ears.

A youtuber on the Channel afistfulofdice Matt is creating a 5e Supplement. Like the ( Adventurers in middle Earth) that uses the 5e frame. But what Matt and his friends are working on is called Harbringer in it has a Unique magic system. I would advise you to looking it up.

It doesn't use spells, spell slots, you have a Astra number. You spend some Astra points to do spells and depending on how many Astra point you use you can add more effects or damage. So for example the Mancer (AKA a wizard or spellcaster) has a Astra level of 5. So he spends 1 Astra to form a forcefield to to give his two Companions the Treader, And Mechanis a small wall about 3ft high to duck down behind. The Mancer or spend all of this Astra to make that same forcefield wall but when some attacks and miss the wall sends the attack back at them. Now this has expend all this Astra levels but he can keep spending Astra to keep casting spells but for every spell he cast he got to roll on a chart the chat as different things happening so could be cool others are really bad.



So I say go check out Harbringer sign up for there playtest. See if you can't Incorperate what there creating into your games.

[pwykersotz]

It sounds like you want spells to work like UA's psionic disciplines.

Learn any one you want, at any time, but you can only put this much energy in it at once.

To be honest, yeah, the UA Psionics are definitely closer to my ideal.


Lots of questions

The questions you ask are very difficult for me to answer, because justifying them in suitable detail takes a lot of time, and right now I'm splitting tasks. If other posters don't address some of these points for you, I'll try to come back to them later.


A youtuber on the Channel afistfulofdice Matt is creating a 5e Supplement. Like the ( Adventurers in middle Earth) that uses the 5e frame. But what Matt and his friends are working on is called Harbringer in it has a Unique magic system. I would advise you to looking it up.

That sounds really cool! I'll check it out.

[JackPhoenix]

The questions you ask are very difficult for me to answer, because justifying them in suitable detail takes a lot of time, and right now I'm splitting tasks. If other posters don't address some of these points for you, I'll try to come back to them later.

Um... how could other users answer what's *your* problem with 5e magic?

[pwykersotz]

Um... how could other users answer what's *your* problem with 5e magic?

To some on these forums, the problems of theme and cost are self evident and it has been discussed in the past.

Edit: Sorry for the terse replies, as I said, my time is limited today and my dumb tablet browser keeps crashing and erasing replies.

[Talamare]

A youtuber on the Channel afistfulofdice Matt is creating a 5e Supplement. Like the ( Adventurers in middle Earth) that uses the 5e frame. But what Matt and his friends are working on is called Harbringer in it has a Unique magic system. I would advise you to looking it up.

It doesn't use spells, spell slots, you have a Astra number. You spend some Astra points to do spells and depending on how many Astra point you use you can add more effects or damage. So for example the Mancer (AKA a wizard or spellcaster) has a Astra level of 5. So he spends Astra to form a forcefield. Now this has expend all this Astra levels but he can keep spending Astra to keep casting spells but for every spell he cast he got to roll on a chart the chat as different things happening so could be cool others are really bad.

So, it's basically a Small Mana Pool that when it runs out it becomes the obnoxious Wild Magic system?

No offensive to you nor the designers, but that sounds terrible

[pwykersotz]

So, it's basically a Small Mana Pool that when it runs out it becomes the obnoxious Wild Magic system?

No offensive to you nor the designers, but that sounds terrible

You seem to have judged it pretty harshly without knowing it further. We don't know if those numbers were off the cuff or exact, how quickly it recharges, what other sorts of modifiers exist, etc. Saying it's terrible seems preemptive to me. Besides, even if it is exactly what you currently believe, it might be more hackable than the default spell system. That could have value all by itself.

[Pex]

You admitted it to yourself. You don't like D&D magic at all. That's all good, but what are we or even WOTC supposed to do about it? They changed it once. That was 4E. What you want requires a fundamental change of the entire game. It may end up being a viable game to play, but it wouldn't be D&D. (NOT going to argue if 4E is D&D or not. Don't want to derail the thread. :smallwink:) House rules are fine. If there's something you don't like you put your own patch on it. If you need to write your own player's handbook of house rules the game system you're changing is not for you. You don't need anyone's permission not to play D&D. To play the game you have to accept what it offers even if you don't like it, i.e. despite my infamous gripe against the lack of defined skill DCs in 5E I can get over myself and still play having fun. If what you don't like makes the game not fun play something else, i.e. I never have and never will play 4E.

What could interest you is the 3E Psionics system. It has leveled powers, but the chassis is a power has its basic ability and you invest your own power (psionic points) to increase its ability. That is easier to collapse into no levels. For example, you could have a power called Influence. By spending 1 point you get Advantage on Charisma skill checks. Spending 3 points it acts like Charm Person. Spending 5 points it acts like Suggestion or Charm more than one person, how many to be determined. 7 points is Charm Monster. 9 Points is Charm Monster or Suggestion on more than one creature, how many to be determined. However, you need to determine the number of points an ability costs, how many points a character gets, and how many powers it gets, i.e. Influence, Fire (Burning Hands -> Flaming Sphere -> Fireball etc.), Trickery (Blur -> Mirror Image -> Displacement -> Invisibility, etc.), and so forth.

[Vaz]

No.

Point 1. Some people hate psionics.
Point 2. Some people love psionics.

The people who hate psionics won't like the way in which you're removing the way they love Vancian Casting (there may be other types of casting also). There are others who love Psionics, but prefer to play the Psionic Classes for how different they operate. You're going to upset both of those.

Without playing Psionics, try playing a Warlock, and give it the spell point mechanic. Play test with that.

[Throne12]

So, it's basically a Small Mana Pool that when it runs out it becomes the obnoxious Wild Magic system?

No offensive to you nor the designers, but that sounds terrible

It's a poor Description . I was just trying to give a vage idea of it.

[Theoboldi]

You may also want to check out the Spheres of Power system. It's a supplement for Pathfinder, but I think there's a few conversions for 5e floating around the internet, and the base system is freely available on its own wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/).

Basically, it functions by letting each caster chose a certain amount of spheres (Broad magical themes like Alteration, Enhancement, Death or Telekinesis) that give them certain at-will powers, as well as a small amount of spell of spell points that they can use to fuel stronger powers they get from their spheres.

As you level, you get to chose between learning additional spheres or talents, the latter of which improve the powers of the spheres you have or allow you to use them in completely different ways. These are all qualitative improvements however, damage and duration are both handled by level, as is usual for Pathfinder and 3.5.

I've never played it myself, but heard good things about how flavorful and customizable it is.

[lunaticfringe]

Entirely subjective, but potentially.

IMX alt magic adds complexity but loses some versatility. Say there is Fire Style, you can use weaker fire spells more than stronger ones so it still works out being able to cast Burning Hands more than fireball. You had to select the Fire theme though thus tying potential future spell choices to that theme. Meanwhile a standard Sorcerer can cherry pick spells thus being able to fluff multiple themes.

Just from what I've seen. Because the premise isn't really fleshed out it's hard to evaluate.

[ATHATH]

Why not just make most spellcasters work kind of like the Wu Jen Mystic archetype?

Some tweaks might have to be made, of course.